Examine individual changes

'{{Chemical and Bio Engineering Project}} == References and External links == [[User:re03955|re03955]] 14:21, 7 January 2008 (UTC) What is "pressure barrier osmosis"? Google finds only Wikipedia articles. This term appeared first in [[water resources]] (first version).--[[User:80.137.207.121|80.137.207.121]] 21:18, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC) I haven't been able to find anything to confirm the existance of such a thing. Failing the arrival of confirming references that I can actually see, I will probably remove the reference to "pressure barrier osmosis" next month. --[[User:Coro|Coro]] 21:58, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC) I never heard of it either. Probably a confusion with reverse osmosis. [[User:Pstudier|pstudier]] 01:19, 2005 Mar 30 (UTC) ==additional citations for verification== Encyclopedia of Desalination and Water Resources (DESWARE) http://www.desware.net/des3.aspx <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Manic mechanic|Manic mechanic]] ([[User talk:Manic mechanic|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Manic mechanic|contribs]]) 03:36, 31 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> == Energy == How much energy is needed to desalinate a cubic meter of sea-water? Someone please add this to the article. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/83.249.20.138|83.249.20.138]] ([[User talk:83.249.20.138|talk]]) 19:52, 8 December 2006 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned --> :A cubic meter? Who measures water that way? Should the answer be provided in millicalories just for fun? [[User:Jpp42|Jpp42]] 13:41, 1 July 2007 (UTC) : If SI is used, this would be good for everybody. I think cubic meter is the best way.[[User:re03955|re03955]] 14:21, 7 January 2008 (UTC) == Gas Hydrates. == The interest in ethane (gas) hydrates is more to do with mining them from the sea floor for their gas and water components to be separated. While being researched for desalination it is certainly not a major process. Moreover it does not yet produce water fit for drinking. I have relegate the process to the list of possible methods... perhaps it can be expanded on its own article. [[User:CustardJack|CustardJack]] 12:03, 10 May 2005 (UTC) I am not sure what Membrane Distillation means. I suspect that it is an old-fashioned term for Membrane Processes and therefore should be removed, since they exist as separate entries under Reverse Osmosis and Nanofiltration (which I have added). However, it may mean what are generally termed "Hybrid Plants", which combine distillation, ie evaporation, with membrane processes and an electricity generating station. This alternative provides flexibility because of its two sources of energy: electricity for the membrane process and low-pressure steam from the power station for the thermal evaporation process (MSF or ME). WuLouis Hello WuLouis, Membrane distillation is a process using material like Gore-Tex for desalination. There have been small applications been set up and research is going on in Germany. Plus for this process is low temperature and pressure. Scaling and fouling is very low! GOR better PR has to be improved during ongoing research at the moment. See also http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Membrandestillation juliet yahyaei :Totally forgetting my lack of German, I tried to take a look at the referenced article. Needless to say, I didn't get very far. Any chance of somebody translating to an English version?--[[User:Coro|Coro]] 00:09, 4 March 2006 (UTC) ::You could try [http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&langpair=de%7Cen&u=http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Membrandestillation&prev=/language_tools]. This is Google's translation of the web page. It seems to me that this would require the same amount of heat as any conventional distillation, but at a lower temperature. Not sure what it's advantage over vacuum distillation. Hope this helps. [[User:Pstudier|pstudier]] 01:55, 4 March 2006 (UTC) == Misplaced item? == The sentence "While SDSU Center for Advanced Water Technologies [2] and Professor Ronald A. Newcomb has worked with a local company (Aqua Genesis Ltd.) to assist in the development of geothermally powered desalination. [3]" towards the top of the page seems a) to be advertising and b) out of context where it has been placed. Geothermally powered desalination is not a major desalination technology at present. Wulouis In looking at it, I'm having to agree. That section is supposed to be for currently established methods. I will be moving that stuff down to the experimental section.--[[User:Coro|Coro]] 01:10, 26 January 2006 (UTC) == Spray method == Does anyone recall a method involving spraying the saltwater (creating a fine mist), making distillation require vastly less energy? Apparently boiling the mist saltwater was much easier than boiling it as a liquid. == First time thermal desalination was published== I did try to find out when thermal desalination (MSF) first was published and fond a Process scheme of a multi stage flash (MSF) evaporator published 23. – 26. May 1934 in Germany during a seminar of “Schiffstechnische Gesellschaft” by Mr. R. Blaum called “Process scheme of a 3-stage flash evaporator plant with brain recirculation” I do have a scan of the process if wanted because I do not know how to get it in here. Claus Mertes :Postwar, R.S. (Bob) Silver, a Scottish professor of engineering (and poet and playwright), did a thermodynamic analysis that showed multi-stage flash and reverse osmosis were clearly the best processes. Reverse osmosis was at the time technologically infeasible, and I believe that Silver's MSF design was the first continuous-flow process to be commercially implemented, in Kuwait. He was given a UNESCO gold medal for this invention. Bob told me that patents were drafted but did not succeed in catching very much of the huge money that American companies subsequently made. I am not sure how Blaum fitted in; Bob is no longer with us, but his published papers on the subject might say. - AG, Stockport. Thanks for this information. Talking about a continuous-flow process please have a look at http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meerwasserentsalzung. This is the continuous-flow process published in 1934 by Blaum. - Claus Mertes == Economics == I added a bunch of {{Fact|date=July 2007}} disclaimers to the economics section, as it is simple stated facts without references. If anyone has any real information as to the economics and costs of construction/maintenance/etc, I think it would be extremely useful.[[User:Dirtyharry2|Dirtyharry2]] 00:27, 26 September 2006 (UTC) I am currently the project engineer for supply of GRP pipe to the Gold Coast Desalination project at Tugun in Queensland Australia. You have asked about construction costs and I have figures for the project of: Pretreatment and RO plant: AUD 600M Tunnel for supply and return of salt water: AUD 300M Network piping for fresh water: AUD 300M These are construction cost estimates only that have been given to contractors. [[User:219.89.123.33|219.89.123.33]] 23:49, 10 September 2007 (UTC)D Ashby == Carbon emissions from desalination == I suggest a paragraph or two about carbon dioxide emissions (greenhouse gas) from desalination would be appropriate in this discussion. If the energy intensity of desalination is quantified, it will then be possible to estimate greenhouse emissions for a given electricity source (e.g. coal etc). I do not know the amount of energy required for desalination, but I can quantify the emissions relative to the energy requirement. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Haimona|Haimona]] ([[User talk:Haimona|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Haimona|contribs]]) 01:32, 21 March 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned --> == There are a lot of grammatical errors in this article == There are a lot of errors with the usage of "and," in regards to run-on sentences. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Jasdub32|Jasdub32]] ([[User talk:Jasdub32|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jasdub32|contribs]]) 10:52, 26 April 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned --> == Expansion requests == {{Expand|date=July 2007}} This article could benefit from: * More examples of prices of desalination and alternatives (such as tapping ground, river, or lake water) in various locations around the world. That way readers can make up their own minds about how expensive or infeasible it is. * A list quantitatively detailing the suppy capacity on a country-by-country or plant-by-plant basis for the largest facilities in the world. -- [[User:Beland|Beland]] 16:33, 27 June 2007 (UTC) :The World Bank report on desalination in the Middle East and Central Asia has significant useful information on desalination in general, covering the economics, environmental aspects, energy use, and institutional aspects. It could be a useful reference for any expansion of the article: http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTWSS/Resources/Desal_mainreport-Final2.pdf--[[User:Mschiffler|Mschiffler]] ([[User talk:Mschiffler|talk]]) 02:46, 23 April 2008 (UTC) == Retitle article "water desalination?" == I expanded the opening paragraph to note that desalination means salt removal generally, as with soil desalination. Perhaps this article should be renamed "water desalination" (which currently redirects to desalination), and desalination made into a stub article explaining the general definition, with wiki links to water desalination and [[soil desalination]]. -[[User:Agyle|Agyle]] 23:17, 18 August 2007 (UTC) == Forward osmosis == "food grade concentrate". What substance is used? It should be made clear that this will not give rise to pure water, but some kind of soup or syrup. [[User:84.43.92.19|84.43.92.19]] 17:11, 12 September 2007 (UTC)Michael :That sentence was unreferenced, and I tagged it and other statements in the section as needing citations. According to [http://www.osti.gov/energycitations/servlets/purl/893156-UkdqxK/893156.PDF "Forward Osmosis: A New Approach to Water Purification and Desalination"], forward osmosis is used in concentrating food products like fruit juice, but not in desalination. A casual google search of "forward osmosis" (FO) and "desalination" suggests that as of 2006, FO was not used in commercial desalination, and experimental use seems to use ammonia and carbon dioxide rather than food grade concentrate on the non-salt side. -[[User:Agyle|Agyle]] 07:59, 16 September 2007 (UTC) Until we have evidence of commercial use, I've removed it from the list of methods in use. However, since we do have evidence of research being done, I've popped a mention of it into the experimental section.--[[User:Coro|Coro]] ([[User talk:Coro|talk]]) 01:00, 13 September 2008 (UTC) == Largest desalination plant is in Israel? == I believe the world's largest desalination plant is in Ashkelon, Israel, it's now providing and selling 165 000 m3 of water per day and will eventually produce 330,000 m3 per day of water daily. [[User:Punjabishere|Punjabishere]] ([[User talk:Punjabishere|talk]]) 22:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC) == Actual power rating == I found in the article only 4 kWh per m³ sea water. This is not state of the art. New systems with pressure recovery are at 2.5 kWh electric power / m³. Here a [http://intergeo-water.com/systems/desalination-cost-calculation.htm desalination cost calulator] When it comes to the task to reduce carbon dioxide to a level before using fossile energy, [http://live.pege.org/2008-energy/dessert.htm desalination for irrigation dry areas] could be a key technology. --[[User:Pege.founder|Pege.founder]] ([[User talk:Pege.founder|talk]]) 13:06, 2 March 2008 (UTC) == Clarification == "Sometimes the process produces table salt as a by-product. It is used on many ships and submarines." *I can't be sure whether this is referring to the salt being used or the process used on ships and submarines. Any ideas? "Saudi Arabia's desalination plants account for about 24% of total world capacity." *This sounds like the plants account for 24% of all desalination worldwide, but it could also be referring to using 24% of the world's energy capacity. Any ideas? <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Neum|Neum]] ([[User talk:Neum|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Neum|contribs]]) 22:09, 25 March 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> == COORD template == How is the {{tl|coord}} template relevant for this article? I believe it should be removed. [[User:Timneu22|Timneu22]] ([[User talk:Timneu22|talk]]) 16:21, 13 April 2008 (UTC) == History? == Where's the history. I opened this page to read about the history of Desalination. But there was no info. Somebody please upload the history of Desalination plants. [[User:Tri400|Tri400]] ([[User talk:Tri400|talk]]) 11:34, 11 June 2008 (UTC) ==Gallons vs cubic meters== There seems to be somewhat of an edit war about citing gallons vs. citing cubic meters. I think we should use whichever unit of measurement is cited in the source. If someone wishes to cite the other unit, it can be added in parenthesis after the original unit. [[User:Grundle2600|Grundle2600]] ([[User talk:Grundle2600|talk]]) 22:44, 19 July 2008 (UTC) i love pie <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/220.253.180.90|220.253.180.90]] ([[User talk:220.253.180.90|talk]]) 09:18, 25 July 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> :I fully agree with Mr(s?) Grundle2600. However, when non-SI units are being used that happen to be non-uniquely defined, the actual "taste" used should be mentioned. In this case I had to divide the m³ by the gallons to find that here 1 gallon = 3,78 m³, so that apparently the US gallon was used. El Paso in in the USA, but Aruba is a part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands (Europe), so it was not obvious that the US gallon was used. :Therefore, in cases like this, I would suggest that an ambiguous unit like "gallon" (or "mile", or whatever) be preceded by either "imperial" or "US", (or "nautical" in case of miles), whichever applies. :--[[User:HHahn|HHahn]] [[User_talk:HHahn|<small>(Talk)</small>]] 20:57, 19 January 2010 (UTC) == Vapor-compression vs Evaporation/condensation == Can anyone provide an explanation as what difference exist, if any? Right now, I'm inclined to remove the latter from the list, but will wait a week for a response before doing so. --[[User:Coro|Coro]] ([[User talk:Coro|talk]]) 01:36, 19 September 2008 (UTC) :Well, the question should be phrased in a different way, I believe : if formulated this way is tantamount to asking whether a red jacket is warmer than black hat. :Evaporative desalinators always work on the evaporation/condensation, whichever their type : multiflash, multiple effect or vapour compression. The concept is, I feed thermal energy (steam, electricty, etc) to create an evaporation in the water body to be desalted, and as a result I condense vapours that have no (well, almost) salt in them. :The specific case of vapour compression works in the same way; in it, the energy source is (usually) electricity driving a vapour compressor : the compressor will increase the pressure of the vapours released in the evaporator body, so that these vapours will condense if cooled by the same liquor circulating in the body. the heat supplied by condensation will grant evaporation, and so forth. If you are familiar with Italian language, give a look [http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissalatore here]; schemes may be explicative.--[[User:UbUb|Ub]] ([[User talk:UbUb|talk]]) 15:10, 7 November 2008 (UTC) == Passarell Process == There is reference in the article to a so-called ''Passarell process''. I used the link, and this is what I would call, optimistically, a goodwill effort from a non-specialist. Unless somebody gives sounder evidence of the existence of such a process, I will delete the reference. --[[User:UbUb|Ub]] ([[User talk:UbUb|talk]]) 14:58, 7 November 2008 (UTC) Searches for information on the Passarell process seem to invoke a lot of perpetual motion references. Given that the ideal gas law shows us that the energy saved by evaporating in a vacuum will be spent creating the vacuum, I am not surprised that this does not exist beyond the patent. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/128.2.247.23|128.2.247.23]] ([[User talk:128.2.247.23|talk]]) 22:27, 23 April 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> == strange sentence on supply options == The article currently says: :''Increased water conservation and water use efficiency remain the most cost effective priority for supplying water.'' But conservation and increased efficiency obviously don't ''supply'' any water at all! They do reduce the amount of water ''demand'', thereby causing less supply to be required, but this is a very weird way to word that. --[[User:Delirium|Delirium]] ([[User talk:Delirium|talk]]) 03:34, 4 March 2009 (UTC) ==This article should not have been moved from "Desalination" to "Water desalination" without a discussion first.== There is now a desalination disambiguation page that links to water desalination and soil desalination. But every use of the term desalination that I've seen in the media refers to water, not soil. So I added "This article is about water desalination. For soil desalination, see soil desalination" to the beginning of this article. I can't move this article back until after the disambiguation page is deleted. [[User:Grundle2600|Grundle2600]] ([[User talk:Grundle2600|talk]]) 23:47, 5 April 2009 (UTC) Thanks for moving it back! [[User:Grundle2600|Grundle2600]] ([[User talk:Grundle2600|talk]]) 00:17, 6 April 2009 (UTC) :<small>(edit conflict)</small>I have moved the article back to [[Desalination]]. The disambiguation page only had links to two articles, [[Desalination]] and [[Soil salinity control]]. A disambiguation page is only appropriate when there are three or more articles to choose between. When there are only two articles, hatnotes at the top of both articles, with links to the other article are appropriate. See [[WP:DAB]] for more information. If anyone thinks this article should be moved (possibly to [[water desalination]], then it should be discussed here on the talk page to reach [[WP:CONSENSUS|consensus]] first. —<b style="border:1px solid #C5BE83;background-color:#F5DEB3;font-size:0.9em;">&nbsp;[[User:LinguistAtLarge|LinguistAtLarge]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[User talk:LinguistAtLarge|Talk]]&nbsp;</b> 00:19, 6 April 2009 (UTC) ::You're welcome. —<b style="border:1px solid #C5BE83;background-color:#F5DEB3;font-size:0.9em;">&nbsp;[[User:LinguistAtLarge|LinguistAtLarge]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[User talk:LinguistAtLarge|Talk]]&nbsp;</b> 00:19, 6 April 2009 (UTC) :::On my user talk page I have been rebutted for making the move, and I have replied and I have rejected arguments. Yet I accepted the back move and agreed that prior discussion would have been more appropriate. Still, I think the suggestion above "Retitle article "water desalination?" by [[User:Agyle|Agyle]] does make sense. In the past I have made similar moves "Salinity control" and "Drainage system" without problem and in the second case with a compliment. Life is variable.[[User:R.J.Oosterbaan|R.J.Oosterbaan]] ([[User talk:R.J.Oosterbaan|talk]]) 01:35, 6 April 2009 (UTC) ==Proposal to move this article to "Water desalination"== Recently I made that move, but it was undone. See the discussion above and on my talk page. When desalination can refer to two different things like A-desalination and B-desalination it is logical to call these items as such and make a disambiguation page. There are peace makers and trouble makers and it would be wrong to make a page about trouble makers and call it simply "makers". [[User:R.J.Oosterbaan|R.J.Oosterbaan]] ([[User talk:R.J.Oosterbaan|talk]]) 02:30, 6 April 2009 (UTC) This is a repeat of the proposal given before on this page, see [[Talk:Desalination#Retitle article]]. For opponents see the discussion on [[user talk:R.J.Oosterbaan#Moving desalination]]. However, recently I created the page [[Environmental impact of irrigation]] and there already existed a disambiguation page [[Environmental impact]] with ONLY TWO items, but I could now SMOOTHLY enter the new page. Disambiguation pages give a logical structure to Wikipedia, even when it concerns two items. [[User:R.J.Oosterbaan|R.J.Oosterbaan]] ([[User talk:R.J.Oosterbaan|talk]]) 16:19, 13 April 2009 (UTC) The headache that I see here is that most people in the Desalination industry already automatically assume that desalination discussions relate to water as a matter of course. And in all the environmental discussions where desalination comes up, it is typically assumed that water is involved. Unless the idea is to force people into becoming aware that another kind of desalination exists, all the alleged disambiguation does is add another click to their search. Because I occasionally keep track of agricultural issues in California, I have come across articles relating soil salinity and soil desalination. But these articles always make it clear that they are covering "Soil Desalination" rather than "Desalination, so as to prevent confusion since there is a tendency to consider to consider "Water Desalination" to be synonymous to "Desalination".--[[User:Coro|Coro]] ([[User talk:Coro|talk]]) 04:42, 15 April 2009 (UTC) == History and etymology sections == Can we have a history and etymology section? [[User:Faro0485|Faro0485]] ([[User talk:Faro0485|talk]]) 02:19, 12 June 2009 (UTC) == Clarification needed == The beginning of this article states, "The world's largest desalination plant is the Jebel Ali Desalination Plant (Phase 2) in the United Arab Emirates." However, further down on the page it is indicated that "the Ashkelon seawater reverse osmosis (SWRO) desalination plant in Israel is the largest in the world." Does the second statement mean to say that Ashkelon is the largest ''of its type'' in the world? [[User:SweetNightmares|SweetNightmares]] ([[User talk:SweetNightmares|talk]]) 00:37, 2 February 2010 (UTC)'