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'{{Talk header|hide_find_sources=yes|archive_age=3|archive_units=months|archive_bot=Lowercase sigmabot III}} {{Article history |action1=FAC |action1date=12:01, 8 March 2006 |action1link=Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Napoleon I of France/archive2 |action1result=not promoted |action1oldid=42782019 |action2=GAN |action2date=17:42, 15 July 2006 |action2link=Talk:Napoleon I/Archive 2#GA nomination |action2result=failed |action2oldid=63946557 |action3=GAN |action3date=14:55, 5 June 2008 (UTC) |action3link=Talk:Napoleon I/GA1 |action3result=failed |action3oldid=217376410 |action4=GAN |action4date=16:27, 16 July 2008 |action4link=Talk:Napoleon I/GA2 |action4result=listed |action4oldid=226002247 |action5=WAR |action5date=16 August 2008 |action5link=Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Napoleon I of France |action5result=approved |action5oldid=232290487 |action6=PR |action6date=23:56, 11 October 2008 |action6link=Wikipedia:Peer review/Napoleon I of France/archive1 |action6result=reviewed |action6oldid=244672865 |action7=PR |action7date=02:34, 1 March 2009 |action7link=Wikipedia:Peer review/Napoleon I of France/archive2 |action7result=reviewed |action7oldid=273469498 |action8=GAR |action8date=19:45, 16 April 2009 (UTC) |action8link=Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Napoleon I of France/1 |action8result=kept |action8oldid=284163525 |action9=GAR |action9date=17:02, 18 June 2016 (UTC) |action9link=Talk:Napoleon/GA3 |action9result=kept |action9oldid=726495055 |action10=GAR |action10date=14:15, 22 July 2021 (UTC) |action10link=Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Napoleon/1 |action10result=delisted |action10oldid=1048141521 |topic=history |currentstatus=DGA |otd1date=2004-02-26|otd1oldid=6718489 |otd2date=2004-07-17|otd2oldid=4760300 |otd3date=2004-10-15|otd3oldid=6790900 |otd4date=2004-12-02|otd4oldid=16335543 |otd5date=2005-02-26|otd5oldid=16332575 |otd6date=2005-07-17|otd6oldid=18998325 |otd7date=2006-07-17|otd7oldid=64281053 |otd8date=2007-07-17|otd8oldid=145212175 |otd9date=2008-02-26|otd9oldid=194283804 |otd10date=2009-02-26|otd10oldid=273411876 |otd11date=2010-02-26|otd11oldid=346496338 |otd12date=2013-02-26|otd12oldid=540210661 |otd13date=2014-02-26|otd13oldid=597033200 |otd14date=2015-02-26|otd14oldid=648818107 |otd15date=2017-02-26|otd15oldid=767410380 |otd16date=2018-02-26|otd16oldid=827818238 |otd17date=2019-02-26|otd17oldid=885255728 |otd18date=2021-02-26|otd18oldid=1008917598 |otd19date=2021-05-05|otd19oldid=1021302549 |otd20date=2022-02-26|otd20oldid=1074093996 |otd21date=2023-02-26|otd21oldid=1141694387 }} {{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=y|class=B|vital=yes|living=n|listas=Napoleon 01 Of France|1= {{WikiProject Biography |core=yes |military-work-group=y |military-priority=Top |politician-work-group=y |politician-priority=Top |royalty-work-group=y |royalty-priority=Low}} {{WikiProject Military history |class=A |A-Class=pass |Biography=y |French=y |Napoleonic=y}} {{WikiProject European history |importance=Top}} {{WikiProject European Microstates |importance=Low |Andorra=y }} {{WikiProject France |importance=Top}} {{WikiProject Italy |importance=High}} {{WikiProject Africa |importance=Mid |Saint Helena=y |Saint Helena-importance=Top}} {{WikiProject Politics |importance=High}} }} {{Other banners|collapsed=y| {{Press | author = Richard Cooke | title = Wikipedia Is the Last Best Place on the Internet | org = ''[[Wired (magazine)|Wired]]'' | url = https://www.wired.com/story/wikipedia-online-encyclopedia-best-place-internet/ | date = February 17, 2020 | accessdate = February 27, 2020 | quote = "By contrast, Wikipedia's article on Napoleon sits at around 18,000 words long and runs to more than 350 sources." | author2 = Annie Rauwerda | title2 = Watching the Napoleon Movie? Don’t Forget to Read His Wikipedia Page. | org2 = ''[[Slate (magazine)|Slate]]'' | url2 = https://slate.com/technology/2023/11/napoleon-movie-ridley-scott-wikipedia-page.html?via=rss | date2 = 2023-11-23 | accessdate2 = 2023-11-23 | quote2 = ''Le petit caporal'' even has a stand-alone article on [[Napoleon's penis|his genitals]] (only [[Holy Prepuce|Jesus]] and [[Possible monorchism of Adolf Hitler|Hitler]] can say the same). }} {{Old moves | title1 = Napoleon | title2 = Napoleon I | title3 = Napoleon I of France | title4 = Napoleon Bonaparte | oldlist = * RM, Napoleon I of France → Napoleon Bonaparte, '''No consensus''', 29 May 2007, [[Talk:Napoleon/Archive 3#Requested move]] * Napoleon I of France → Napoleon I, '''Moved''', 18 February 2010, [[Talk:Napoleon/Archive 4#Title : Napoleon of France ?]] * RM, Napoleon I → Napoleon, '''Not moved''', 19 January 2011, [[Talk:Napoleon/Archive 5#Requested move]] | list = * RM, Napoleon I → Napoleon Bonaparte, '''Moved to Napoleon''', 24 February 2011, [[Talk:Napoleon/Archive 5#Move to Napoleon Bonaparte]] * RM, Napoleon → Napoleon Bonaparte, '''No move''', 16 September 2014, [[Talk:Napoleon/Archive 6#Requested move 16 September 2014]] * RM, Napoleon → Napoleon I, '''consensus not to move''', 17 February 2020, [[Special:Permalink/942465823#Requested move 17 February 2020]] }} {{section sizes}} {{Top 25 Report|Jul 9 2023|Nov 19 2023}} }} {{User:MiszaBot/config |archiveheader = {{aan}} |maxarchivesize = 250K |counter = 7 |minthreadsleft = 5 |algo = old(90d) |archive = Talk:Napoleon/Archive %(counter)d }} {{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn |target=/Archive index |mask=/Archive <#> |leading_zeros=0 |indexhere=yes }} == Proposal to shorten infobox == I think the infobox on this page is excessively long due to including so many of Napoleon's titles and offices, particularly since most of them are of lesser importance; his power and influence, as well as his legacy, comes from being ruler of France, not the other titles he granted himself. So I think the infobox would do fine with First Consul and Emperor, with everything else at the bottom of the page (indeed, not all his titles are even in the infobox to begin with). But at the very least, we could tuck these other offices and titles under collapsible sections: that would reduce the length and focus attention without getting rid of them entirely. Here's what I mean: {{hidden|Infobox, tucked away here due to length |headerstyle=background:#ccccff |style=text-align:center; | {{Infobox royalty | image = Jacques-Louis David - The Emperor Napoleon in His Study at the Tuileries - Google Art Project.jpg | alt = Portrait of Napoleon in his late thirties, in high-ranking white and dark blue military dress uniform. In the original image he stands amid rich 18th-century furniture laden with papers, and gazes at the viewer. His hair is Brutus style, cropped close but with a short fringe in front, and his right hand is tucked in his waistcoat. | caption = ''[[The Emperor Napoleon in His Study at the Tuileries]]'', by [[Jacques-Louis David]], 1812 | succession = [[Emperor of the French]] | moretext = ([[Style of the French sovereign|more...]]) | reign = 18 May 1804 – {{nowrap|6 April 1814}} | reign-type = 1st reign | cor-type = [[Coronation of Napoleon|Coronation]] | coronation = 2 December 1804<br />[[Notre-Dame Cathedral]] | predecessor = [[Louis XVII]] (''disputed'') or {{nowrap|[[Louis XVI]]}} {{avoid wrap|(as King of France)}}<br/> Himself {{avoid wrap|(as First Consul of the French Republic)}} | successor = [[Louis XVIII]] {{avoid wrap|(as King of France)}} | reign-type1 = [[Hundred Days|2nd reign]] | reign1 = {{nowrap|20 March 1815 – 22 June 1815}} | predecessor1 = Louis XVIII | successor1 = [[Napoleon II]] (''disputed'') or {{nowrap|Louis XVIII}} | succession2 = [[First Consul of France|First Consul of the French Republic]] {{Infobox officeholder/office | termstart = 12 December 1799 | termend = 18 May 1804 | 1blankname = Co-Consuls | 1namedata = {{plainlist| * [[Jean-Jacques-Régis de Cambacérès]]<!-- Second Consul of France --> * [[Charles-François Lebrun]]<!-- Third Consul of France -->}} {{Collapsed infobox section begin |last=yes |Other regnal titles |titlestyle=border:1px dashed lightgrey;}}{{Infobox royalty|embed=yes | succession3 = [[King of Italy]] | reign3 = 17 March 1805 – {{nowrap|11 April 1814}} | coronation3 = 26 May 1805<br />[[Milan Cathedral]] | predecessor3 = [[Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor|Charles V]] (1556) | successor3 = [[Victor Emmanuel II of Italy|Victor Emmanuel II]] (1861) | succession4 = [[Principality of Elba|Emperor of Elba]] | reign4 = 11 April 1814 – 20 March 1815 | succession5 = [[Napoleonic Spain|King of Spain]] (interim) | reign5 = 6 May – 6 June 1808 | predecessor5 = [[Ferdinand VII of Spain|Ferdinand VII]] | successor5 = [[Joseph Bonaparte|Joseph I]] | succession6 = [[Protector of the Confederation of the Rhine]] {{Infobox officeholder/office | termstart = 12 July 1806 | termend = 4 November 1813 | 1blankname = {{nowrap|Prince-Primates}} | 1namedata = {{plainlist| * [[Karl von Dalberg]] * [[Eugène de Beauharnais]]}} }} | predecessor7 = [[Francis II, Holy Roman Emperor|Francis II]] (as [[Holy Roman Emperor]]) | successor7 = [[Francis II, Holy Roman Emperor|Francis I of Austria]] (as [[President of the German Confederation|Head of the ''Präsidialmacht'' Austria]]) {{Collapsed infobox section end}}}} {{Collapsed infobox section begin |last=yes |Other republican titles |titlestyle=border:1px dashed lightgrey;}}{{Infobox royalty|embed=yes | succession8 = [[French Consulate|Provisional Consul of the French Republic]] {{Infobox officeholder/office | termstart = 10 November 1799 | termend = 12 December 1799 | 1blankname = Co-Consuls | 1namedata = {{plainlist| * [[Emmanuel Joseph Sieyès]]<!-- Second Consul of France --> * [[Roger Ducos]]<!-- Third Consul of France -->}} }} | predecessor8 = [[Louis-Jérôme Gohier]] (as President of the [[French Directory|Directory of the French Republic]]) | succession9 = President of the [[Italian Republic (Napoleonic)|Italian Republic]] {{Infobox officeholder/office | termstart = 26 January 1802 | termend = 17 March 1805 | vicepresident = [[Francesco Melzi d'Eril]] }} {{Collapsed infobox section end}}}} }} | birth_name = Napoleone Buonaparte<ref>{{Cite web|url=https://art.rmngp.fr/fr/library/artworks/fac-simile-de-l-acte-de-bapteme-de-napoleon-redige-en-italien_carton|title=Fac-similé de l'acte de baptême de Napoléon, rédigé en italien. – Images d'Art|language=fr|trans-title=Facsimile of Napoleon's baptismal certificate, written in Italian. – Art Pictures}}</ref> | birth_date = {{Birth date|1769|8|15|df=yes}} | birth_place = [[Ajaccio]], Corsica, {{avoid wrap|[[Kingdom of France]]<!--Corsica was formally ceded by the Republic of Genoa to the Kingdom of France by the [[Treaty of Versailles (1768)]], but France only took actual control of the island in May 1769 due to initial Corsican resistance. Napoleon was born one year after the cession of Corsica to France and 4 months after the annexation of Corsica to France.-->}} | death_date = {{Death date and age|1821|5|5|1769|8|15|df=yes}} | death_place = [[Longwood, Saint Helena]] | burial_date = 15 December 1840 | burial_place = [[Les Invalides]], Paris, [[July Monarchy|France]] | spouses = {{plainlist| * {{marriage|[[Joséphine de Beauharnais]]|9 March 1796|10 January 1810|end={{abbr|ann.|annulled}}}} * {{marriage|[[Marie Louise of Austria]]|11 March 1810|1814|end={{abbr|sep.|separated}}}}}} | regnal name = Napoleon I | issue = {{plainlist| * [[Napoleon II]] * [[Charles, Count Léon]] * [[Alexandre, Count Colonna-Walewski]]}} | issue-link = #Wives, mistresses, and children | issue-pipe = | full name = Napoléon Bonaparte | house = [[House of Bonaparte|Bonaparte]] | father = [[Carlo Buonaparte]] | mother = [[Letizia Ramolino]] | signature = File:Firma Napoleón Bonaparte.svg }} }} What does everyone think: remove offices, collapse them or just leave it alone? — [[User:Kawnhr|Kawnhr]] ([[User_talk:Kawnhr|talk]]) 19:01, 18 July 2023 (UTC) :Would support removal. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 04:18, 19 July 2023 (UTC) :There are other problems with the info box. Napoleon's main titles were First Consul and, later, Emperor of the French Republic. The current info box has Louis XVI as Napoleon's "predecessor" as Emperor and Louis XVIII as his "successor". But "Emperor of France" was an entirely new institution created by Napoleon. There was no predecessor and no successor until Napoleon III. Napoleon did not consider himself a successor to Louis XVI and to suggest he was would have been a crime against the Republic. Similarly, the legitimists would have been outraged if anyone suggested that Louis XVIII was a successor to Napoleon, rather than the legitimate King who had been in exile. The problem is that historical facts have been distorted to fit a preconceived info box format rather than an info box tailored to accurately summarise historical facts. Rather than removing the other titles which Napoleon bestowed on himself (some of which, as far as I am aware, were recognised by other major powers in binding treaties) I suggest we remove all the information about predecessors and successors whenever a position held by Napoleon was a new institution created by Napoleon. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 04:56, 19 July 2023 (UTC) ::That is a separate discussion. Feel free to start that instead. — [[User:Kawnhr|Kawnhr]] ([[User_talk:Kawnhr|talk]]) 14:14, 19 July 2023 (UTC) :::I disagree. The discussion is about making the info box more concise and we might as well consider all the related issues at once. I am suggesting we keep all Napoleon's titles but we don't "leave the info box alone". We remove the incorrect information about the Napoleon's predecessors and successors. It is posiible to walk and chew gum at the same time. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 01:11, 20 July 2023 (UTC) ::::When the conversation is so slow moving, I think it is best to keep it as focused as possible so that it doesn't turn into a situation of five people suggesting five different things, giving us a conversation where no consensus can be found. This is especially the case when proposing something relatively bold: listing ''de facto'' successors, for when offices are abolished and replaced, is common if not universal practice, so you're unlikely to find quick and easy consensus for your idea. That's why it'd be better as a separate discussion. — [[User:Kawnhr|Kawnhr]] ([[User_talk:Kawnhr|talk]]) 21:46, 21 July 2023 (UTC) :::::Well, we'll see what others think. As for saying Napoleon was the de facto successor of Louis XVI do you have a reliable source for that? Or a WP policy stating that falsifying history is common practice? [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 23:38, 21 July 2023 (UTC) ::::::@[[User:Kawnhr|Kawnhr]] I apologise for the cranky tone of my last comment. I still think the easiest way to make the info box more concise is to include a documented list of his actual titles rather than filling it with unsourced assertions regarding disputed predecessors and successors. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 01:03, 22 July 2023 (UTC) :::::::Why is it an either or issue? It can be collapsed and discussions on the titles can still continue. Napoleon had so many titles, that, one way or another, they are going to bloat the infobox if left uncollapsed, even with some concerted efforts towards paring down the more dubious entries. The predecessor/successor stuff under 'emperor' is indeed dubious though. Either that section needs to be "Ruler of France", and contain kings as predecessors and successors, or the kings need to go. It shouldn't say 'emperor' and have kings as predecessor and successor - because they are not those things to that specific title. [[User:Iskandar323|Iskandar323]] ([[User talk:Iskandar323|talk]]) 05:11, 22 July 2023 (UTC) :Support collapsing. It leaves the infobox a lot cleaner, as it should be. Big improvement. [[User:Iskandar323|Iskandar323]] ([[User talk:Iskandar323|talk]]) 07:49, 19 July 2023 (UTC) :OK, it's a month later and only a few people have weighed in, but since they were all both in favour or reducing the size in some fashion, I'm going to be a bit [[WP:BOLD]] and make the infobox collapsible. If anyone disagrees, feel free to resume the discussion. — [[User:Kawnhr|Kawnhr]] ([[User_talk:Kawnhr|talk]]) 22:56, 24 August 2023 (UTC) Per [[WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE]], the infobox is to summarise ''key'' information from the article. Key information is not just important but the ''most'' important. It also advises than less is often better. Just because an infobox has fields that can be filled, does not mean that these should be filled. We should remember that an infobox is a supplement to the lead and that it is unsuited to capturing nuance - eg such as the distinction between emperor and king. Also, my understanding is that drop-downs do not work on mobile platforms, so collapsible lists are not a good solution and create accessibility issues. My view is that we should be ruthless when it comes to what is or isn't in an infobox. [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 23:50, 24 August 2023 (UTC) :Do you have a concrete proposal to shorten the info box? I still say it is incorrect to say that King Louis XVI was Napoleon's predecessor and most of the pedecessor/successor stuff should be removed. I would be happy to start another topic on this, but I think we can probably reach a consensus on it here if people are prepared to say yes/no to the idea. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 00:41, 25 August 2023 (UTC) ::Just posted a WP:BOLD proposal to the article. You will see that I left Louis XVIII as successor reported after the first reign as ''Louis XVIII (as King of France)''. I didn't think it was necessary to add ''(as King of France)'' the second time. I thought it better to place ''First Consul of the French Republic'' first, to reflect the chronological order. The name stuff is pretty redundant as it appears in the first sentence of the lead in bold. His parents names are not the ''most important'' of information. If there are any questions re the rationale for the decisions I made, I would be happy to answer these. I expect my changes will not be to everyone's taste but they are consistent with P&G and (I think) a good starting point. [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 01:24, 25 August 2023 (UTC) :::I support your changes. There is a b> symbol though after first reign. I'm not very good at source editing so might make things worse if I try to fix it. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 02:18, 25 August 2023 (UTC) :::I also support your changes. I made a couple small edits, though: I think only mentioning ''(as King of France)'' once gives the impression that Louis took the ''Emperor of the French'' title the second time, so I restored the note, but as a footnote instead — takes up less space. I also removed the notes of his exiles, because [[Edward IV of England]] and [[Henry VI of England]] don't have similar explanations for their two reigns, so I figure Napoleon can do fine without it too. — [[User:Kawnhr|Kawnhr]] ([[User_talk:Kawnhr|talk]]) 02:50, 25 August 2023 (UTC) ::::{{U|Kawnhr}}, the ''king'' stuff is fine but I think the ''exiled'' stuff should be retained. It indicates succinctly why there were two reins. The ''where to'' is also pretty important IMHO - obviously Elba wasn't far enough. It is the sort of thing that every schoolboy/girl used to know. [[WP:OTHERTHINGS]] is never a good argument of itself. One needs to indicate why the ''other thing'' is better or worse. I don't see a field to give such an explanation (''exiled'' or something else) perhaps this just didn't occur to those that fashioned the infobox for those two kings. The benefit and significance by far exceeds the decrease in concision by two lines - IMHO. [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 03:32, 25 August 2023 (UTC) :::::OK, but I can't find a single example of an infobox listing this information. [[Louis XVIII]] doesn't mention his first reign ended after his flight during the Hundred Days. [[Ferdinand VII of Spain]] doesn't mention the circumstances that ended his first reign, nor do [[Constantine I of Greece]], [[George II of Greece]], [[Michael I of Romania]], [[Mustafa I]] or [[Norodom Sihanouk]]. The editors on all these pages thought this information could be better covered in the body. I'm not making an appeal to "other things exist", but pointing to precedent and aiming for consistency. [[WP:SSE|Some stuff exists for a reason]], if you will. — [[User:Kawnhr|Kawnhr]] ([[User_talk:Kawnhr|talk]]) 05:10, 25 August 2023 (UTC) ::::::If ''some stuff exists for a reason'', I'll respond with two questions. Is there a good reason why this isn't done elsewhere that also applies to this instance? Is there a good reason why this is a bad thing to do here? {{tq|The editors on all these pages thought this information could be better covered in the body.}} We do not know what these editors thought. Perhaps a good way to add something similar did not occur to them or there was no ''good way'' in the other cases. The last dot-point at [[WP:Some stuff exists for a reason]] also applies. [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 09:12, 25 August 2023 (UTC) :{{ping|Cinderella157}} {{tq|His parents names are not the ''most important'' of information.}} This is what you wrote when proposing to shorten the infobox, which could be true. While your efforts are greatly appreciated I fail to understand how adding literally two lines to the infobox is going to have an adverse effect on the article in general. This is a trivial matter considering the other issues found within this page. He was a French monarch and for every single monarch before or after him the names of the parents and their royal/noble house is given. I would not be opposed to omitting the "House" parameter, but it's just ridiculous to remove his parents' names while keeping those of his wives and children. What is it exactly that gives his wives from whom he was separated more prominence compared to his mother or father? <span style="font:'Pristina'">[[user:Keivan.f|<span style="color: #1E7HDC">Keivan.f</span>]]</span><span style="font:'Pristina'">^{[[user_talk:Keivan.f|<span style="color: purple">Talk</span>]]}</span> 22:10, 21 September 2023 (UTC) ::I don't support adding his parents names. We need to reduce the info box to the most important information. Nap didn't inherit any of his titles from his parents, he earned them himself. And if everyone says, "It's only two more lines" we will end up with an unwieldly info box again. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 22:31, 21 September 2023 (UTC) :::His wives and children did not help him earn those titles either. What is the justification for keeping their names there exactly? <span style="font:'Pristina'">[[user:Keivan.f|<span style="color: #1E7HDC">Keivan.f</span>]]</span><span style="font:'Pristina'">^{[[user_talk:Keivan.f|<span style="color: purple">Talk</span>]]}</span> 22:56, 21 September 2023 (UTC) ::::His wives were Empresses of the French. His children were heirs to his titles. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 23:10, 21 September 2023 (UTC) :::::Two of those children were illegitimate and were not heirs to anything. His wives were empresses via marriage, a title bestowed upon them solely because they were his wives. His mother was also called "Madame Mère" (Madame Mother) and had a place at her son's court. Why should she be excluded and those two included? <span style="font:'Pristina'">[[user:Keivan.f|<span style="color: #1E7HDC">Keivan.f</span>]]</span><span style="font:'Pristina'">^{[[user_talk:Keivan.f|<span style="color: purple">Talk</span>]]}</span> 23:38, 21 September 2023 (UTC) ::::::You've had your say. We will see what others think. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 00:20, 22 September 2023 (UTC) :::::::This is not a voting contest. If no one can come up with a solid reason as to why the names of his wives and children should be there then they can be removed. That makes the infobox even shorter which was the aim of this discussion anyway. <span style="font:'Pristina'">[[user:Keivan.f|<span style="color: #1E7HDC">Keivan.f</span>]]</span><span style="font:'Pristina'">^{[[user_talk:Keivan.f|<span style="color: purple">Talk</span>]]}</span> 00:51, 22 September 2023 (UTC) ::::::::No, you need to seek a consensus for such a change. [[Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle|WP:BRD]]. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 01:13, 22 September 2023 (UTC) :::::::::I don't see a solid consensus for removing his parents' names either. Three users agreeing to remove something that had been in the article's body for years does not qualify as a universal consensus. Only an [[WP:RfC]] could achieve this. And we are already discussing the matter so for now I'll wait and see what the other two users have to say. <span style="font:'Pristina'">[[user:Keivan.f|<span style="color: #1E7HDC">Keivan.f</span>]]</span><span style="font:'Pristina'">^{[[user_talk:Keivan.f|<span style="color: purple">Talk</span>]]}</span> 01:26, 22 September 2023 (UTC) ::::::::::Ping {{U|Kawnhr}} as your input has been requested. [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 10:19, 22 September 2023 (UTC) :::::::::::I think they should probably stay; it's standard in infoboxes, and only two lines anyway. I appreciate the willingness to take a machete to the infobox, but I think we've more or less solved the problem of length. — [[User:Kawnhr|Kawnhr]] ([[User_talk:Kawnhr|talk]]) 23:34, 22 September 2023 (UTC) ::::::::::As you noted, I don't think that his parents are sufficiently important information to add to the infobox. However, my main point in challenging your edit was to have it discussed to achieve a specific consensus (or not). My view is that his partners and progeny are more important but ''[https://www.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/a36c3b95-09d1-45d3-aba4-1cf850f79232 not tonight Josephine]'' [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 10:19, 22 September 2023 (UTC) {{reflist-talk}} I don't care that much about infoboxes in general, but I just looked again at the current infobox on the page, and it does not look too long to me at all. It looks to me to be pretty reasonable and standard, and pretty much fine as it is. I wouldn't support adding his parents names to the current infobox. Thank you, [[User:warshy|warshy]] [[User talk:warshy|<sup style="font-variant: small-caps; color: #129dbc;">(¥¥)</sup>]] 15:28, 22 September 2023 (UTC) :Fair enough. I just don't understand why we are giving more prominence to the wives and children. There's just not a single argument that could explain why any of them (other than Josephine perhaps) is more prominent than either of his parents. The view that his wives were empresses and as such should be named does not make sense. Letizia was the mother of an emperor, much in the same way that [[Margaret Beaufort]] (who was not a queen) was the mother of England's [[Henry VII of England|Henry VII]] and a prominent figure in his court. If the aim is to shorten the infobox, fine, by all means do it, but do it without prejudice against certain family members. <span style="font:'Pristina'">[[user:Keivan.f|<span style="color: #1E7HDC">Keivan.f</span>]]</span><span style="font:'Pristina'">^{[[user_talk:Keivan.f|<span style="color: purple">Talk</span>]]}</span> 23:29, 22 September 2023 (UTC) ::Okay. I gave this discussion two and a half months to see if someone could come up with a legitimate reason as to why his parents' names have to be omitted. Not only is there no valid reason to exclude them, but by looking at the comments here it appears that there is no majority established in favor of either side. I don't think it's fair to make such changes based on the preferences of 2-3 users, so should I open an RfC? <span style="font:'Pristina'">[[user:Keivan.f|<span style="color: #1E7HDC">Keivan.f</span>]]</span><span style="font:'Pristina'">^{[[user_talk:Keivan.f|<span style="color: purple">Talk</span>]]}</span> 00:58, 2 December 2023 (UTC) :::Both of his wives have significant multiple mentions in the article. His parents on the otherhand have minimal mentions in respect to his early life only. Not everything should be in an infobox. It is an editorial choice to balance what should be there and what are the most significant key facts that should be summarised there, per [[WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE]]. The article supports inclusion of his wives but not of his parents. [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 02:52, 2 December 2023 (UTC) ::::Since when did we establish the 'number of times a person is mentioned in a specific article' as criteria for including or excluding their name from a given page's infobox? I mean, his mother, who gave birth to him and lived throughout his entire reign, cannot be tossed away as some insignificant figure just because her name is not repeated as much as Josephine's. Yes, she may not be as important as his wives, but she is at least as notable as his children and definitely not 'unimportant'. <span style="font:'Pristina'">[[user:Keivan.f|<span style="color: #1E7HDC">Keivan.f</span>]]</span><span style="font:'Pristina'">^{[[user_talk:Keivan.f|<span style="color: purple">Talk</span>]]}</span> 03:05, 2 December 2023 (UTC) :::::Per [[WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE]]: {{tq|[it is] to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article}} and {{tq|The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance.}}. It is not a matter of ''notability'' per [[WP:BIO]] but whether they are ''key facts''. An objective measure of whether something is a ''key fact appearing in an article'' is how often it is mentioned. [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 05:03, 2 December 2023 (UTC) ::::::Based on that logic, the names of his children should be tossed away as well. Neither of them (except maybe for Napoleon II) form part of the article's key facts, and they appear only once or twice in the text. We cannot be selective when applying the suggested guidelines. <span style="font:'Pristina'">[[user:Keivan.f|<span style="color: #1E7HDC">Keivan.f</span>]]</span><span style="font:'Pristina'">^{[[user_talk:Keivan.f|<span style="color: purple">Talk</span>]]}</span> 05:10, 2 December 2023 (UTC) :::::::Okay, toss them. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 05:16, 2 December 2023 (UTC) :::::::Someone added a section on Titles to the article which consists of a table. Perhaps we could add a similar one regarding family? I understand that this goes against the need to shorten the article, but there is a case that an article of this kind should contain a summary table of Napoleon's family, given the importance of his family in his career. To save space, I would suggest that the section about wives and mistresses should get the chop and be replaced by a table on his family. I would also suggest that the tables on Titles and Family should be collapsible. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 06:21, 2 December 2023 (UTC) ::::::::Well, that suggestion can be discussed separately because the focus of the discussion here is the infobox specifically. I'm gonna go ahead with removing the children's names. <span style="font:'Pristina'">[[user:Keivan.f|<span style="color: #1E7HDC">Keivan.f</span>]]</span><span style="font:'Pristina'">^{[[user_talk:Keivan.f|<span style="color: purple">Talk</span>]]}</span> 14:47, 2 December 2023 (UTC) :Hi, as i already discussed with [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] on the religious section, i just wanted to add back religion to Infobox because i think that some of the "cutting" and changes that were done on this matter are just trying to give one or other point of view. And i also really think that just a bit of 46 bytes will not hurt anyone. [[User:CitizenZorro|CitizenZorro]] ([[User talk:CitizenZorro|talk]]) 14:32, 7 February 2024 (UTC) ::Hi [[User:CitizenZorro|CitizenZorro]] and [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]], as per [[MOS:INFOBOXREL]] this detail should be included only for "classes of persons for whom religion is integral to their notability". That's not this case. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 04:40, 8 February 2024 (UTC) :::Hello there [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]], :::I just respect the idea of diversity and different opinions, but respect should be mutual, especially when it comes to issue like religion. And not talking on this specific case. :::I find the "cutting" and changes that were made on the section of "religious beliefs" were too much. After all, Catholicism was the state religion (majorty) of the first French Empire and its ruler by his own words. :::He was also crowned in a Catholic ceremony, his uncle was a Cardinal, and we already have that the "biggest influence upon him was his mother" who was also a devout Catholic. :::I don't want to change any of the last edits on this section, just to add religion to Infobox which i remember stood there for years. and by putting a ref which i think [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] also put there. [[User:CitizenZorro|CitizenZorro]] ([[User talk:CitizenZorro|talk]]) 22:38, 8 February 2024 (UTC) ::::I don't see there is a case for this addition given [[MOS:INFOBOXREL]] and [[WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE]] more generally. [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 23:33, 8 February 2024 (UTC) :::::I just forget to mention that Napleon is also buried in a Catholic Cathedral, without also mention other sourced aspects that were just cutting from "religious beliefs". :::::And if a state religion is not notable, so what really is? [[User:CitizenZorro|CitizenZorro]] ([[User talk:CitizenZorro|talk]]) 15:23, 9 February 2024 (UTC) ::::::Napoleon did not make Catholicism the state religion, he recognised it as the religion of the majority: a purely descriptive term. In any event, that is irrelevant to Napoleon's main reason for notability: [[MOS:INFOBOXREL]] [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 22:20, 9 February 2024 (UTC) :::::::He actually did my friend, And his nephew [[Napoleon III]] also follow the family tradition and did the same in the Second French Empire. :::::::He was also crowned in a Catholic ceremony, and even his resting place, which is alredoy mentioned on the infobox, is owned by the Catholic Church and not the first or fifth French Republics. :::::::And why did you cut some important and sourced aspects on religious beliefs and think it's more reliable now? [[User:CitizenZorro|CitizenZorro]] ([[User talk:CitizenZorro|talk]]) 22:53, 9 February 2024 (UTC) :::::::[[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Adolphin]], So my friend? You want to cut religion from both religious section and infobox? 😉 :::::::I'm restoring some removed contents to "religious beliefs" section because some of the references you put there are not more reliable. In fact, some are smaller works to the one's you just had cut. Or at least to infobox. :::::::What do you think would be more realistic? [[User:CitizenZorro|CitizenZorro]] ([[User talk:CitizenZorro|talk]]) 13:22, 11 February 2024 (UTC) ::::::::If you want to add content to the religion section, you should discuss proposed additions in the Talk section on Religion below. Given that there is a consensus that the article is already too long, you should seek consensus for any proposed additions or consider adding them to the main article on [[Napoleon and the Catholic Church]]. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 22:28, 11 February 2024 (UTC) ::::::::Using threats to get ones way is quite inappropriate. [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 23:19, 11 February 2024 (UTC) :::::::::As a Catholic, and not as a something else, I would say that Napoleon was probably our greatest. But I'm still not sure because there are some other candidates. :::::::::To use his name for spreading some [[Fake News]] is quite disrespectful for him, his character, and others. [[User:CitizenZorro|CitizenZorro]] ([[User talk:CitizenZorro|talk]]) 09:47, 12 February 2024 (UTC) == Reforms, Administration == Hello all, I have changed the heading from "Metric System" to "Administration". I have added content on two major administrative reforms: the introduction of regional prefects and the establishment of the Council of State. Most sources list these as major reforms. I have also added content on his abolition of the Revolutionary calendar. The result is a slight increase in size, but this has been more than offset by other cuts I have made to the reform section. Happy to discuss. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 00:21, 18 November 2023 (UTC) == Comma error == I do not believe that there was a council consisting of 500 people named Roger Duco. There should be a comma after hundred in that sentence to show that "Roger Ducos" was the Speaker of the Council of the Five Hundred. [[Special:Contributions/50.125.92.170|50.125.92.170]] ([[User talk:50.125.92.170|talk]]) 16:19, 20 November 2023 (UTC) :A clumsy sentence. I did a copy-edit to address this. [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 00:36, 21 November 2023 (UTC) == Infobox == I propose we add [[House of Bonaparte|his house]] and his parents to the infobox. [[User:Векочел|Векочел]] ([[User talk:Векочел|talk]]) 01:25, 22 November 2023 (UTC) :Why? See [[Talk:Napoleon#Proposal_to_shorten_infobox|discussion above]]. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 01:35, 22 November 2023 (UTC) ::Nearly every biography on a monarch will list their parents and their royal house. [[User:Векочел|Векочел]] ([[User talk:Векочел|talk]]) 02:51, 22 November 2023 (UTC) :::N didn't inherit his title from his parents and there was no "royal house". He was officially emperor of the French Republic. Whatever that means. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 11:35, 22 November 2023 (UTC) ::::Even if there was legally no house, I would argue that the House of Bonaparte is nonetheless notable because of Napoleon, his siblings, and his nephews. If we do not list Napoleon's parents, then perhaps we shouldn't list his spouses and his children either. [[User:Векочел|Векочел]] ([[User talk:Векочел|talk]]) 17:36, 24 November 2023 (UTC) ::::No but his title was hereditary for the Imperial Family of France as confirmed by the Constitution of the Year XII, and that family was to be solely composed of the House of Bonaparte which was made clear in said constitution. [[User:Sebmg16|Sebmg16]] ([[User talk:Sebmg16|talk]]) 13:35, 27 November 2023 (UTC) == About negative aspects of his rule. == There is a long leading section were all Napoleon's accomplishments were struck down into one single footnote, yet now they added a the negative aspects, as part of the text, that would be a contradiction, if someone want to talk about it then it must be done like in his achievements. [[User:Nuevousuario1011|Nuevousuario1011]] ([[User talk:Nuevousuario1011|talk]]) 21:49, 24 November 2023 (UTC) :I would suggest removing the sentence about selling Louisiana, which is hardly one of his great achievements, and summarizing the last sentence to: "his exploitation of conquered territories and mixed record on civil rights adversely affect his reputation." A footnote can then be added listing some of the things he has been taken to task for: including the reintroduction of slavery, reduction in civil rights for women, ending direct elections, looting, mass shootings of POWs etc. When I get the chance I also intent to rewrite the Ctiticism section to make it more balanced. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 22:07, 24 November 2023 (UTC) ::Yes that was my intention, however the women civil rights is a myth, as they do not lost anything they had before, something that many historians had said, direct elections were also over with the directory, the looting is part of the war debate and the mass shooting of Pows in anachronistically and related to one incident, not being the only one to do it, as his rivals did. The main thing is the reassurance of slavery on the territories gained by the Amiens peace treaty [[User:Nuevousuario1011|Nuevousuario1011]] ([[User talk:Nuevousuario1011|talk]]) 22:12, 24 November 2023 (UTC) ::It must be noticed that the ban on Mulattoes and Blacks was temporal, also the exile of political opponents was not uncommon for his predecessors and his successors, so that is not a change or something of his authority, and the women and children rights were never scaled back as Pierre Branda noticed, as well as many others, there are no sources or evidence, and by far there were no rights for women before Napoleon, so it was neither of his authority, besides all of this is discussed in the criticism section, it should be shortened and more about his own marks. [[User:Nuevousuario1011|Nuevousuario1011]] ([[User talk:Nuevousuario1011|talk]]) 23:53, 24 November 2023 (UTC) :::The rights of women to own property, to seek divorce, to retain their dowry to publish, etc were severely restricted according to the vast majority of sources. All the other statements are supported by the majority of reliable sources. If you wish to challenge this you will need to start a new section on Talk and cite your sources. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 00:22, 25 November 2023 (UTC) == Napoleon Wars History == Napoleon did not engage with Russia until 1812 and faced defeat shortly after the invasion. The article erroneously states that he defeated Russians in 1807 at Friedland. The reference to the Prussian city of Königsberg is misleading, as it only became part of Russia in 1946 after World War II. Therefore, in 1807, there were no Russians in that area for Napoleon to confront. At Friedland, he actually defeated Prussians, not Russians. [[User:TGVerdi|TGVerdi]] ([[User talk:TGVerdi|talk]]) 16:44, 25 November 2023 (UTC) :The French defeated the Russians in 1807, and before in 1805, they were in Prussian territory in 1807 and in Austrian territory in 1805. [[User:Nuevousuario1011|Nuevousuario1011]] ([[User talk:Nuevousuario1011|talk]]) 21:19, 25 November 2023 (UTC) == Height? == The article presently says "Consequently, Napoleon was routinely bullied by his peers for his accent, birthplace, short stature, mannerisms, and inability to speak French quickly"; there's a reference. I could believe he was bullied for those other things, but I've heard that he really was average height. What I've heard previously was that most people who saw him saw him from a distance, and he was always with his extremely tall hand-picked guards. Today in the Guardian there's this: "Do you think Napoleon was short? Well, it’s a myth. Britain’s great satirist James Gillray didn’t just caricature the French leader relentlessly, he also pulled off arguably the greatest cartoon coup of all time, convincing the world even to this day that he was pint-sized. It was all based on a mistranslation (and no doubt a little mischief). Since French inches were bigger than British ones, Napoleon’s recorded height of 5ft 2in would have worked out at around 5ft 7in on the other side of the Channel. Not a giant, but taller than the average Frenchman of the time." Of course he still could have been short as a child and grown later, but the whole "Napoleon complex" height thing is at best questionable.[[Special:Contributions/2600:6C50:800:2787:C067:7A43:F1F3:82F|2600:6C50:800:2787:C067:7A43:F1F3:82F]] ([[User talk:2600:6C50:800:2787:C067:7A43:F1F3:82F|talk]]) 03:06, 26 November 2023 (UTC) :This is explained in the article under the "[[Napoleon#Appearance and Image|Appearance and Image]]" section. He was 168-170 cm (5 ft 6 in to 5 ft 7 in) tall. Although of average height, he possibly would have been shorter than the well-fed aristocrats at the school and military academy. The "Napoleon Complex" is probably nonsense but is in the article because it was once taken seriously by some. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 04:56, 26 November 2023 (UTC) :You say "French inches were bigger than British ones"? I wonder do have any source(s) for that claim? Thanks. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 23:20, 5 December 2023 (UTC) == Nepoleon == He was a kind of both types of emperor [[Special:Contributions/2409:408A:2D40:C094:4B3E:D5E0:F831:1FDB|2409:408A:2D40:C094:4B3E:D5E0:F831:1FDB]] ([[User talk:2409:408A:2D40:C094:4B3E:D5E0:F831:1FDB|talk]]) 03:59, 26 November 2023 (UTC) == Infobox titles == I know that most of Napoleon's titles have been removed to shorten the infobox, but I think it would make sense that ”Emperor of the French” be viewed as the primary title and thus be moved above that of ”First Consul of the French Republic”. Looking at the infobox now it would seem at first glance that he was first and foremost First Consul, which in the end was not the case. [[User:Sebmg16|Sebmg16]] ([[User talk:Sebmg16|talk]]) 13:45, 27 November 2023 (UTC) :The terms are presently in chronological order from oldest to newest, including his two terms as Emperor. This is quite logical and, given the absence of other clutter, I don't see much weight in the ''first glance'' argument. Let's see what others have to say. [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 01:22, 28 November 2023 (UTC) ::I can understand that argument, but is that how it is done with other pages as well? I believe the common practice is to have the most recent title first. Two examples are, first, George W. Bush who has his most recent title/office of president first and his previous position as Governor of Texas as second, the second example is Napoleon III with his most recent title of emperor first and his previous title as president second. Though I may be wrong to think that it makes more sense that way, but I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on this as well. [[User:Sebmg16|Sebmg16]] ([[User talk:Sebmg16|talk]]) 12:38, 30 November 2023 (UTC) == House == I see the past discussions about removing his house from the infobox BUT one of the biggest problems I have with it is Napoleon's listed as the founder of the house which makes him notable enough to have his house included. Additionally, he's the only monarch I've seen without their house listed in the infobox on Wikipedia. [[User:GamerKlim9716|GamerKlim9716]] ([[User talk:GamerKlim9716|talk]]) 14:00, 27 November 2023 (UTC) :In the case of the infobox, there is a distinction between ''notable'' and ''key significant''. [[WP:OTHERSTUFF]] is not of itself a substantive argument. It was removed with a rough consensus that it was not ''key significant'' information. I am of that view. [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 01:28, 28 November 2023 (UTC) == Exile on Saint Helena == Hello all I have substantially rewritten this section. I have rewritten the section on the arsenic poisoning theory which has been thoroughly discredited by recent scientific studies. I have cut some dubious trivia about the card games Napoleon allegedly played. I have moved some information about what others thought of Napoleon to the propaganda and memory section. I have added some sourced information to make the events and chronology of the exile more comprehensible. I have largely relied on Dwyer's (2018) study of the exile. The result is a slight increase in the size of the section but I plan to offset this with cuts elsewhere. Happy to discuss. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 03:53, 28 November 2023 (UTC) :Sorry, the result, of course, is a large reduction in size as I have cut most of the trivia and discredited information on the poisoning theory. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 03:58, 28 November 2023 (UTC) == Gramar change on Siege of Toulon == {{edit semi-protected|Napoleon|answered=yes}} Under Early career -> Siege of Toulon, on the final sentence of the paragraph it says "After this campaign, Augustin Robespierre sent Bonaparte on a mission to the Republic of Genoa to determine '''that''' country's intentions towards France." Please change this be "After this campaign, Augustin Robespierre sent Bonaparte on a mission to the Republic of Genoa to determine '''the''' country's intentions towards France." as it is a more natural sentence structure. [[User:Xeofd|Xeofd]] ([[User talk:Xeofd|talk]]) 21:29, 28 November 2023 (UTC) :{{done}} [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 22:59, 28 November 2023 (UTC) == [[Napoleon II]] should be listed as a successor == I've noticed that the only successor to Napoleon listed in the Wikibox is Louis XVIII, despite the fact that Napoleon '''both times''' attempted to abdicate in favor of his son, [[Napoleon II]], who served as the disputed Emperor of the French in 1814 and 1815. I think that he should be added to the Wikibox as the successor to his first and second reigns, and predecessor of Napoleon's second reign. [[User:WorldMappings|WorldMappings]] ([[User talk:WorldMappings|talk]]) 03:55, 29 November 2023 (UTC) :As far as I know, no one but Bonapartists recognised him as Emperor. There is a consensus to simplify the Infobox so it doesn't seem the place to put disputed information. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 04:21, 29 November 2023 (UTC) :The infobox is not the place for nuance. [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 13:15, 29 November 2023 (UTC) == Italian campaign == Hello all I have moved some detailed information about Napoleon's general military strategy and comments on military matters to the article on [[Napoleonic weaponry and warfare]]. There is already a section in this article about Napoleon's contributions to military strategy and tactics where the same points are made more concisely. This in in accordance with the consensus that this article needs to be shorter and more readable. Happy to discuss. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 22:39, 29 November 2023 (UTC) == link to village of austerlitz is wrong == The link to the village of Austerlitz links to the Dutch village [[Austerlitz, Netherlands|Austerlitz]] that was named after the battle. But is should link to [[Slavkov u Brna|Austerlitz]] in Czech republic [[Special:Contributions/84.199.69.49|84.199.69.49]] ([[User talk:84.199.69.49|talk]]) 11:14, 1 December 2023 (UTC) :{{done}} [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 12:25, 1 December 2023 (UTC) == Religion == Hello all I have cut some information which was tangential or had dubious sources (eg novels) and replaced it with more concise and accurate information from recent scholarship. I added a subheading on Religious views to better focus the content. The result is a slight reduction in word count in accordance with the consensus that the article is too long. I also added a relevant work to the bibliography. Happy to discuss. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 00:02, 2 December 2023 (UTC) :The reiligion of Napoleon and other aspects of his personal beliefs stood there for many years. And i really didn't find the refs and information that you put are better than the one's you cut. But i agree that different opinions about historical figure like Napoleon can be put there without "cutting" his original reilgion from Infobox. Thanks. [[User:CitizenZorro|CitizenZorro]] ([[User talk:CitizenZorro|talk]]) 12:25, 5 February 2024 (UTC) ::There is a consensus that the info box and article as a whole were too long. The current information on Napoleon and religion looks adequate, but if you have specific proposals for changes please state them here and seek consensus for them. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 22:06, 5 February 2024 (UTC) :::Oh...but its "just" only 201,750 bytes, and i have seen much longer articles on much less known people than Emperor Napoleon. Why did you much cutting on the religious matter? And did you put the "follower of Rousseau's "natural religion" or a believer in destiny" stuff and by removing other sourced aspects? I think it would be better to focus more on facts and not that kind of stuff. [[User:CitizenZorro|CitizenZorro]] ([[User talk:CitizenZorro|talk]]) 08:49, 6 February 2024 (UTC) ::::It doesn’t matter whether there are longer articles on Wikipedia, the consensus is that this one is too long. The current Religion section is reliably sourced and I think it covers the issue adequately for a general article or could even be cut further. There is another article on Napoleon and religion where detailed information is more appropriate. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 03:05, 7 February 2024 (UTC) :::::Do you live on the other side of the Atlantic? 😉 Listen Pal, i checked out on page history and i have to say that you did a bit of lot cutting and changes there. I will not come into what is more reliable now, I just want to restore religion to infobox and by putting a ref which i guess you yourself put there. 46 bytes just will not hurt, Ok? [[User:CitizenZorro|CitizenZorro]] ([[User talk:CitizenZorro|talk]]) 11:41, 7 February 2024 (UTC) ::::::You will need consensus for it. Please see the discussion on the infobox. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 11:55, 7 February 2024 (UTC) :::::::👍 [[User:CitizenZorro|CitizenZorro]] ([[User talk:CitizenZorro|talk]]) 12:09, 7 February 2024 (UTC) :::::::Hi again here, :::::::You know what [[:User:Aemilius Adolphin|Adolphin]]? I think that you did good job there by cutting some unreliable references 🙂 :::::::Can i just restore of what Napoleon said on Jesus while in Saint Helena? And some fixes about the Concordat? [[User:CitizenZorro|CitizenZorro]] ([[User talk:CitizenZorro|talk]]) 12:20, 12 February 2024 (UTC) :::::::Also, "he had a keen appreciation of the power of organized religion in social and political affairs, and he paid a great deal of attention to bending it to his purposes. He noted the influence of Catholicism's rituals and splendors". Because this content was well sourced. [[User:CitizenZorro|CitizenZorro]] ([[User talk:CitizenZorro|talk]]) 12:29, 12 February 2024 (UTC) ::::::::I don't support restoring the old wording, "he had a keen appreciation of the power of organized religion in social and political affairs, and he paid a great deal of attention to bending it to his purposes. He noted the influence of Catholicism's rituals and splendors". The current wording is, "He understood the power of organized religion in social and political affairs, and later sought to use it to support his regime." This is more concise, draws on additional cited sources, and makes a broader point: it wasn't just the Catholic church and its rituals that he manipulated to suit his goals, it was also the protestant faiths, Judaism and Islam. ::::::::I assume the quote about Jesus you wish to restore is this one: While in exile in [[Saint Helena]], he is recorded to have said "I know men; and I tell you that [[Jesus|Jesus Christ]] is not a man."'<ref name="Responsibility">{{cite book |last1=Bledsoe |first1=Albert Taylor |title=The Southern review, Volume 9 |last2=Herrick |first2=Sophia M'Ilvaine Bledsoe |year=1871 |page=528 |chapter=The Responsibility of Men for their Belief |access-date=3 February 2021 |chapter-url=https://books.google.com/books?id=-9pGAQAAMAAJ&q=%22I+know+men;+and+i+tell+you+that+Jesus+Christ+is+not+a+man.%22&pg=PA528}}</ref><ref name=":5">{{cite book |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=HrgnAAAAYAAJ&q=Napoleon+alexander,+Caesar,+Charlemagne&pg=PA359 |title=Confidential Correspondence of the Emperor Napoleon and the Empress Josephine: Including Letters from the Time of Their Marriage Until the Death of Josephine, and Also Several Private Letters from the Emperor to His Brother Joseph, and Other Important Personages. With Numerous Illustrative Notes ... |publisher=Mason Brothers |year=1856 |page=359 |quote=[[Alexander the Great|Alexander]], [[Julius Caesar|Caesar]], [[Charlemagne]], and I have founded empires. But on what did we rest the creations of our genius? Upon force. Jesus Christ founded his empire upon love; and at this hour millions of men would die for him}}</ref><ref name=":6">{{cite book |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=Z6BfAAAAcAAJ&q=i+know+men;+and+i+tell+you+that+jesus+christ+is+not+a+man.&pg=PA58 |title=Cyclopædia of Moral and Religious Anecdote [abridged from the larger "Cyclopædia" of K. Arvine], with an introductory essay by the Rev. George Cheever |publisher=J. J. Griffin & Company |year=1851 |page=58}}</ref> The problem with this is that the sources are very dubious. They are English language religious encyclodedias and collections of Napoleon's supposed sayings from the 1850s and 1870s. The consensus of modern scholars is that most of Napoleon's alleged sayings of this kind come from people who were trying to spread pro- or anti-Napoleonic propaganda or reinvent him in their own image. Rather than reinstate this dubious quote, I would prefer to delete the quote about Mohammed which comes from Las Cases -- another source which can't always be relied on without corroborating testimony. ::::::::What changes do you suggest to the content about the Concordat? [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 23:44, 12 February 2024 (UTC) == Kids == Why were his kids removed from the infobox? [[User:GamerKlim9716|GamerKlim9716]] ([[User talk:GamerKlim9716|talk]]) 01:30, 3 December 2023 (UTC) :See the discussion, "Proposal to shorten the Infobox" above. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 01:35, 3 December 2023 (UTC) == Wives, mistresses and children == Hello all This section repeated a lot of information which is already in the article and the linked articles on the people named (the information on Josephine, for example.) I cut this back to focus on Napoleon's children - legitimate, illegitimate and adopted. I have renamed it to reflect the new focus. This is in accordance with the consensus that the article needs to be cut back for readability. Happy to discuss. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 04:11, 4 December 2023 (UTC) == Infobox == I’m aware a discussion occurred in which it was decided to remove a lot of information from the infobox. I don’t mind the removal of his numerous titles, it was frankly way too many. But, the removal of essential information from the infobox such as his parents and his children seems odd to me. It’s common practice to have parents and issue listed in the infobox. Also, the succession boxes are different from most monarchal succession boxes. Almost all include the coronation date (if the information is available). Other things such as his royal house could also be added, that info doesn’t really take up a lot of space and is quite common to have said information in the infobox. I completely understand the need to cut down the lengthy infobox, but, it looks to me as if it was cut down a bit too much. Kind regards, ''[[User:Robertus Pius|<span style="background:turquoise; color:#FFF; padding:2px;">✠ Robertus Pius ✠</span>]] ([[User talk:Robertus Pius|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Robertus Pius|Contribs]])'' 23:04, 5 December 2023 (UTC) :Keeping in mind that which parameters to include is [[MOS:INFOBOXUSE|decided on a per-article basis]] rather than based on what other articles may do, could you elaborate on why you believe the datapoints you identify to be [[MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE|key facts]]? Best, [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 23:10, 5 December 2023 (UTC) ::I believe parents and children are key facts of any individual. Napoleon’s spouses are listed. His parents and issue are just as important. I’d understand not adding his illegitimate children, but at least [[Napoleon II]] should be added. Kind regards, ''[[User:Robertus Pius|<span style="background:turquoise; color:#FFF; padding:2px;">✠ Robertus Pius ✠</span>]] ([[User talk:Robertus Pius|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Robertus Pius|Contribs]])'' 23:16, 5 December 2023 (UTC) :::The purpose of an infobox is to give key information of the individual. Birth, place of birth, death, place of death, spouses, issue, and parents are said key information. The fact that almost every infobox has that information proves the point that it is such. ''[[User:Robertus Pius|<span style="background:turquoise; color:#FFF; padding:2px;">✠ Robertus Pius ✠</span>]] ([[User talk:Robertus Pius|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Robertus Pius|Contribs]])'' 23:26, 5 December 2023 (UTC) == Long term influence outside France == Hello all I have reduced this slightly by writing it more concisely and cutting some information which was already in other sections or which was quite dubious; for example, there was no way Napoleon was trying to make his dynasty the oldest in Europe given that it was only 10 years old while the Romanovs were 300 years old. The result is a modest reduction in size which is in accordance with the consensus that the article is too long to read comfortably. Happy to discuss. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 03:07, 6 December 2023 (UTC) == Propaganda and memory == Hello all I have written this more concisely and have cut some detailed information which is already in the article and the linked article on Napoleonic propaganda. I have added a small amount of sourced information to bring the coverage up to the 21st century. The net result is a modest decrease in word count which is in accordance with the consensus that the article is too long. Happy to discuss. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 05:58, 6 December 2023 (UTC) == Birth name == Hello all An editor changed Napoleon's birth name to Napoleone Bonaparte and cited a website as the source. The website is unreliable because it is a commercial site (an "antique" dealer) and the image is of a postcard, not the original certificate of baptism. According to Dwyer (2008) Napoleon was born Napoleone di Buonaparte. I have added the citation. Happy to discuss [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 23:46, 9 December 2023 (UTC) == Napoleon's family == I have noticed that we have deleted Napoleon's parents and children from the infobox but we are listing his wives. I see no reason why we should list Napoleon's wives, but not his parents or his offspring. My preference would be to list all three, otherwise to delete all three. [[User:Векочел|Векочел]] ([[User talk:Векочел|talk]]) 00:51, 15 December 2023 (UTC) :Your logic is impeccable. My preference would be to remove wives, but I am willing to be convinced otherwise. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 01:37, 15 December 2023 (UTC) ::Unlike the parents, and children, the wives have prominent mentions in the article and can reasonably be considered "key information" per [[WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE]]. [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 09:52, 15 December 2023 (UTC) :::And how exactly are his parents and children not pertinent or key information? Any biography discussing Napoleon's early life will make at least some mention of his parents, and I think Madame Mère is indeed quite notable. [[User:Векочел|Векочел]] ([[User talk:Векочел|talk]]) 13:08, 15 December 2023 (UTC) ::::I still think this issue needs to be addressed via an RfC. Nobody seems to agree on what the correct form is. There are those who bring up the "key elements" issue and those who argue in favor of consistency with the infoboxes of other monarchs. <span style="font:'Pristina'">[[user:Keivan.f|<span style="color: #1E7HDC">Keivan.f</span>]]</span><span style="font:'Pristina'">^{[[user_talk:Keivan.f|<span style="color: purple">Talk</span>]]}</span> 23:33, 16 December 2023 (UTC) :::::The former argument is reflective of the relevant guideline; the latter is not. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 23:54, 16 December 2023 (UTC) :::::::Even when considering the "former argument" opinions vary. There are some who consider family as key parts of any person's biography and then there are those who don't. It depends on what your definition of key information is. <span style="font:'Pristina'">[[user:Keivan.f|<span style="color: #1E7HDC">Keivan.f</span>]]</span><span style="font:'Pristina'">^{[[user_talk:Keivan.f|<span style="color: purple">Talk</span>]]}</span> 00:26, 17 December 2023 (UTC) ::::::::Per [[WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE]]: {{tq|... purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article ...}} It is the article which determines what the key facts are, by the weight given them. [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 02:16, 17 December 2023 (UTC) :::::::::Most articles mention an individual's parents or children (or even spouses) once or twice. That does not mean that those people are not an integral or key part of the subject's life. And given the fact that they are mentioned in proper context, we would not be supplanting anything. <span style="font:'Pristina'">[[user:Keivan.f|<span style="color: #1E7HDC">Keivan.f</span>]]</span><span style="font:'Pristina'">^{[[user_talk:Keivan.f|<span style="color: purple">Talk</span>]]}</span> 20:56, 17 December 2023 (UTC) ::::::::::Parents and children are key information that should be in the infobox. I believe it’s odd to include his spouses in the infobox but not his parents and children, it doesn’t make sense. And I agree with your point, just because his parents aren’t constantly mentioned in the article doesn’t mean they aren’t key information. I would support an Rfa to discuss this. ''[[User:Robertus Pius|<span style="background:turquoise; color:#FFF; padding:2px;">Robertus Pius</span>]] ([[User talk:Robertus Pius|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Robertus Pius|Contribs]])'' 21:18, 1 January 2024 (UTC) == ''Napoleon'' movie inclusion in the "Memory and evaluation" section == Recently, Ridley Scott directed and released a Biopic on Napoleon's life. I tried to reference this movie in the memory portion of the article and was told it was an "Unnecessary detail." Contrarily, it is the first modern Biopic about the emperor and quite the box office trend. Recency bias aside, there has not been any commercial film alike it in the box office, and is worthy of recognition in this article as it pertains to the Emperor's life. [[User:EvanTeaches|EvanTeaches]] ([[User talk:EvanTeaches|talk]]) 22:27, 15 December 2023 (UTC) :There are a number of problems with this: :1) The consensus is that the article is already too long so we need to avoid adding tangential material to it. :2) According to [https://www.hervedumont.ch/page.php?id=fr10&idv=4&idc=310 Hervé Dumont], there are over a 1000 films about Napoleon. So why should this one be included and not the others? Your argument boils down to "because it is a new Hollywood blockbuster that's in in the news." This is a classic example of [[Wikipedia:Recentism|recentism]]. :3) Adding recent films about Napoleon risks an outbreak of "In Popular Culturism" where editors add their favourite film, documentary, novel, computer game, etc that mentions Napoleon in some way. There so many that the article would be little else but a list of these. :The article already states, "In the 21st century, Napoleon appears regularly in popular fiction, drama and advertising." For a general article like this, that's all we need to say. :If you are interested in films about Napoleon you might like to create a new article on that topic. It would certainly be a useful contribution to Wikipedia. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 00:23, 16 December 2023 (UTC) ::Agree [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 02:26, 16 December 2023 (UTC) == War of the Third Coalition == Hello all I have significantly cut the length of this section by writing it more concisely and removing detail which is covered in the linked articles. This is in accordance with the consensus that the article is too long to be easily read. Happy to discuss. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 06:05, 18 December 2023 (UTC) == War of the Fourth Coalition == Hello all I have rewritten this section with more concise wording. I have moved some detail to the main article on the [[War of the Fourth Coalition]]. I have removed some dubious anecdotes with dubious sources. I have added some political context with reliable sources. The result is a decrease in word count which is in line with the consensus that the article is too long to read comfortably. Happy to discuss. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 07:30, 19 December 2023 (UTC) == Peninsular war and Erfurt == Hello all I have rewritten this section with more concise wording. I have summarised some detail which is in the main article on the [[Peninsular War]]. I have replaced some dubious sources with recent scholarship. I have added some context with reliable sources. The result is a decrease in word count which is in line with the consensus that the article is too long to read comfortably. Happy to discuss [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 23:35, 20 December 2023 (UTC) == Semi-protected edit request on 21 December 2023 == {{edit semi-protected|Napoleon|answered=yes}} Add a period to the end of the sentence after the link to the Inquisition in the second paragraph of the section on long-term influence outside of France. [[User:Baba5barn|Baba5barn]] ([[User talk:Baba5barn|talk]]) 04:54, 21 December 2023 (UTC) {{done}} [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 04:59, 21 December 2023 (UTC) == War of Fifth Coalition and Consolidation of Empire == Hello all I have summarized the military detail which can be found in the linked main article. I have added more content on the political consolidation of the Empire under a new sub-heading "Consolidation of Empire". I also removed one image which was causing overcrowding. The result is a reduction in word count which is in accordance with the consensus that the article is too long to read comfortably. Happy to discuss [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 03:49, 22 December 2023 (UTC) :thank you, you need to add the full doyle ref into the references? I'd take a shot at good article, when you think it's ready. What's the gap between this and GA? [[User:Tpbradbury|Tom B]] ([[User talk:Tpbradbury|talk]]) 10:50, 22 December 2023 (UTC) ::Doyle should be Dwyer. Corrections made. I am reading Doyle on the French Revolution and got myself confused. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 11:40, 22 December 2023 (UTC) == Structure consolidation == I asked ChatGPT 4 to produce an outline {{Collapse top|Detailed outline collapsed}} User: Write a detailed outline for a Wikipedia article on Napoleon in wikimarkup <pre> == Early Life and Background == === Birth and Family === Date and place of birth, family background, and early years. === Education === His schooling and military education. == Early Military Career == === Early Service === Initial military experiences and assignments. === First Italian Campaign === Key battles and strategies, impact on his rising fame. == Rise to Power == === Role in the French Revolution === Napoleon's involvement and actions during the Revolution. === Coup of 18 Brumaire === The events leading to the coup and its aftermath. == Governance and Reforms == === Consulate Period === Political changes and reforms during the Consulate. === Emperor of the French === Coronation, reforms, and policies as Emperor. == Military Campaigns and the Napoleonic Wars == === Major Battles and Campaigns === Overview of key military engagements (Austerlitz, Jena, etc.). === Continental System === Economic strategy against Britain and its impacts. === Decline and Defeats === Factors leading to military decline, including the Russian campaign. == Exile and Final Years == === Exile to Elba === Circumstances and life in Elba. === Hundred Days and Waterloo === Return from exile, the Waterloo campaign, and its significance. === Saint Helena === Final exile and death. == Legacy and Historical Perspective == === Political and Cultural Impact === Napoleonic Code, administrative changes, and influence on European politics. === Historical Assessments === How historians view Napoleon: debates and differing perspectives. == In Popular Culture == Overview of Napoleon's portrayal in literature, film, and other media</pre> {{Collapse bottom|outline}} {{col begin}} {{col 2}} Bot structure: * Early Life and Background * Early Military Career * Rise to Power * Governance and Reforms * Military Campaigns and the Napoleonic Wars * Exile and final years * Legacy and Historical Perspective * In Popular Culture {{col 2}} Current structure: * Early life * Early career * Ruler of France * Exile on Saint Helena * Religion * Personality * Appearance and image * Reforms * Memory and evaluation * Children * Titles {{col end}} They're similar, because ChatGPT uses Wikipedia, but it looks across more sources and so provides ideas. i've looked at this for several articles and ChatGPT highlights bloat in longer articles, when i've done a side-by-side comparison. Do we need a level 2 section on religion? Perhaps, but there is rationalisation/consolidation possible in these later level two sections. Some of the reforms section overlaps with the long-term influence sub-section? do personality and appearance, need separate level 2 sections? [[User:Tpbradbury|Tom B]] ([[User talk:Tpbradbury|talk]]) 21:46, 28 December 2023 (UTC) :I agree that the section structure can be rationalised. The main problem I have is that the article is structured around his military campaigns rather than domestic policy and the social context. Reforms should go into the 1799-1803 period and include religious reforms. Appearance and Image coud be combined with Memory and Evaluation. I am strongly against a section on In Popular Culture because this will inevitably encourage random editors to pop in and add their favourite graphic novel, computer game, pop song, TV show, movie etc. that mentions Napoleon. :I am still working on summarising information within the current structure and will have another think about the structure when we get the article down to a manageable size. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 23:29, 28 December 2023 (UTC) ::you make a lot of good points thank you, [[User:Tpbradbury|Tom B]] ([[User talk:Tpbradbury|talk]]) 23:33, 28 December 2023 (UTC) == Fact == The fact that napolean had been a major factor in multiple wars. [[Special:Contributions/2601:285:8800:1AB0:ECDE:C992:FD1B:B0C8|2601:285:8800:1AB0:ECDE:C992:FD1B:B0C8]] ([[User talk:2601:285:8800:1AB0:ECDE:C992:FD1B:B0C8|talk]]) 04:46, 21 January 2024 (UTC) :{{notdone}}. It's not clear to me what you're asking (or saying). [[User:Delukiel|Delukiel]] ([[User talk:Delukiel|talk]]) 14:43, 26 January 2024 (UTC) == About reverting my edit == Hello there, in my edit, I was referring to the influence of Maliki Fiqh on the Napoleonic Code. It has been highly underaddressed because of its Islamic roots. Also, I have provided proper citations for that. Napoleon did order the translation of Maliki books into French. I never claimed that the whole Napoleonic Code was based on Maliki Fiqh; I was simply pointing out the influences. That was not an objective edit but rather a scholastic opinion and possible influence. [[User:Marjukur Rahib|Marjukur Rahib]] ([[User talk:Marjukur Rahib|talk]]) 10:50, 27 January 2024 (UTC) :You added: "It [the Napoleonic Code] was heavily influenced by the Maliki rite of Islam. Napoleon took an interest in the Maliki school of teaching after his invasion of Egypt, ordering the translation of multiple Maliki Fiqh books from Arabic to French." :This is an exceptional claim because None of the major scholarly works on the Napoleonic Code state that it was influenced by the Maliki school of Islam. Any exceptional claim requires ''multiple'' high-quality sources. [[WP:Exceptional]]. Your sources are one article in Turkish, a youtube video and an unpublished PhD thesis. This is not enough to overturn the consensus of eminent scholars in the field. If sometime in the future a consensus emerges that the Napoleonic Code was indeed influenced to some extent by the Maliki school of Islam then we can mention it in this article. But at the moment the consensus of editors is that the article is already too long so there is no room to include [[Wikipedia:Fringe theories|fringe theories]]. [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 23:46, 27 January 2024 (UTC) == Invasion of Russia == Hello all I have removed some content already covered in the article. I have replaced content that was poorly sourced or did not accurately reflect the cited source. I have added content based on more reliable sources, particularly Dwyer (2013) and Esdaille (2007). I have summarised other content. The result is a slight reduction in word count which is consistent with the consensus that the article is too long to read comfortably. Happy to discuss [[User:Aemilius Adolphin|Aemilius Adolphin]] ([[User talk:Aemilius Adolphin|talk]]) 09:17, 30 January 2024 (UTC) == oeuuwc == haooaoooaoaaoooaoaoaoaoao ~~~~'