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'{{Talk header |search=yes }} {{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|vital=yes|1= {{WikiProject Arab world|importance=Top}} {{WikiProject Countries}} {{WikiProject Somalia|importance=Top}} {{WikiProject Anthropology|oral-tradition=yes}} }} {{Copied |from=Somalia |from_oldid= 613114350 |to= Healthcare in Somalia|diff= https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Healthcare_in_Somalia&oldid=614126767}} {{Contentious topics/page restriction talk notice|topic=horn|protection=semi}} {{British-English}} {{Article History |action1=PR |action1date=21:58:05 04 August 2010 (UTC) |action1link=Wikipedia:Peer review/Somalia/archive1 |action1result=reviewed |action1oldid=938729936 }} {{page views}} {{User:MiszaBot/config |archiveheader = {{aan}} |maxarchivesize = 100K |counter = 8 |minthreadsleft = 5 |algo = old(25d) |archive = Talk:Somalia/Archive %(counter)d }} {{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn |target=/Archive index |mask=/Archive <#> |leading_zeros=0 |indexhere=yes |template= }} == Somalia showed as controlling Somaliland == * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Somalia_(orthographic_projection).svg#mw-jump-to-license The picture has been locked by an administrator, leaving it stuck in a state that does not accurately represent de-facto territory. I would strongly suggest Somalia be shown with its de-facto borders, not de jure borders, per standard border guidelines. [[User:ASmallMapleLeaf|ASmallMapleLeaf]] ([[User talk:ASmallMapleLeaf|talk]]) 18:30, 9 January 2024 (UTC) :Somaliland de-facto in the map used is much larger than the reality on the ground. Somaliland doesn't control 40% of its claim territory. SSC-Khatumo is a new unionist administration controls that 40% after 13 years of struggle against Somaliland and its ambition to seek independence based on colonial borders. Meaning even the new replaced map is not accurate. We need a map that shows the real size of the de facto entity while showing Somalia with its SSC-Khatumo. If that is not available, we can for now use the de jure map of Somalia, which reflects the recognised borders of Somalia. [[User:Anwar8989|Anwar8989]] ([[User talk:Anwar8989|talk]]) 08:38, 10 January 2024 (UTC) ::Ok so a few things ::* Firstly, Somalilands claimed borders vs it's controlled territories have always being fairly vague because of the dispute involving it and [[Puntland]] state borrders. It would be highly impractical to constantly adjust the map based on Los Anod conflict territorial gains and loses, especially since the conflict has been plagued with poor coverage by third party organisations, meaning accurate battle lines are difficult to draw anyway. ::To explain why Somaliland qualifies for being mentioned on the map, let's look at two examples which overlap here: ::* File:Morocco_(orthographic_projection,_WS_claimed).svg ([[Morocco]] map): On this map, despite [[Western Sahara]] controlling very little of what they claim, many states do not recognise Moroccan ownership of it, and so the entire Western Sahara is not included as being undisputably part of Morocco. ::* File:CHN_orthographic.svg ([[China]] map): The Indian claim on this map is an example of a claim not being recognised by many other states other than itself, but is included anyway. ::Other examples would include Guyana [[Essequibo]] being claimed by [[Venezuela]], and [[Northern Cyprus]] being claimed but not shown as controlled on the map of Cyprus despite being otherwise unrecognised by anyone. ::Hopefully this is a good enough explanation as to why it should be changed for you. [[User:ASmallMapleLeaf|ASmallMapleLeaf]] ([[User talk:ASmallMapleLeaf|talk]]) 13:33, 10 January 2024 (UTC) :::The conflict was not only over a city, it was over a territory that makes 40% of territories claimed by Somaliland. Now the region has its own administration which is fully independent from Somaliland. Also who would cover a war in non recognised entity that has barely any influence on the world. I think Somaliland needs a new map that shows its true borders, which can be easily constructed. Khatumo SSC is longer disputed, it is endorsed by both Puntland as independent state as well as the Federal government. :::Looking at Morocco, Western Sahara is actually mostly controlled by Morocco, if we are keen on sharing accurate information, those maps should change too. I would advise on making new maps that shows the true uncontrolled size of Somaliland rather then sharing inaccurate information. I would go '''no''' for the current new map. [[User:Anwar8989|Anwar8989]] ([[User talk:Anwar8989|talk]]) 19:00, 11 January 2024 (UTC) ::::Sorry for late response ::::I still believe that the map should contain Somaliland, per my statement above. Not too sure on the guidelines on mapping, but if there isn't any, this could be the point to create one.In regards to creating maps, that can also be debated either way. Still, I am '''In favour''' of reverting the map to show Somaliland. Perhaps we should ask for a '''third opinion'''? [[User:ASmallMapleLeaf|ASmallMapleLeaf]] ([[User talk:ASmallMapleLeaf|talk]]) 15:57, 28 January 2024 (UTC) :::::Hi both, please allow me to join you in the conversation. I think both of you have a valid point. I am more in favour of creating a new map that reflects the real controlled territories of Somaliland rather than reverting to this old wrong map. We could leave this meanwhile. So, I would so '''no''' to the old map and yes for better replacement. [[User:SawsanJojo|SawsanJojo]] ([[User talk:SawsanJojo|talk]]) 18:28, 31 January 2024 (UTC) ===RFC discussion=== <!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 16:01, 7 March 2024 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1709827275}} Should the current map of Somalia on this page, which does not show the areas controlled by Somaliland be replaced? If so, in what way? * '''Option 1''': Keep current map * ''' Option 2''': Replace current map but with a map only highlighting rough boundaries of the areas de facto controlled by Somaliland in light of the current Los Anod conflict * '''Option 3''': Replace current map with a map highlighting Somaliland's de jure borders * '''Option 4''': Show a map of Somalia with its de jure borders, while also displaying one with its de facto borders. It's worth noting there was an edit war on this issue back in December, resulting in the current version of the map being protected. [[User:ASmallMapleLeaf|ASmallMapleLeaf]] ([[User talk:ASmallMapleLeaf|talk]]) 15:50, 1 February 2024 (UTC) :'''Support Option 3''', with a secondary preference for '''Option 2''' per my comments above (before RFC). [[User:ASmallMapleLeaf|ASmallMapleLeaf]] ([[User talk:ASmallMapleLeaf|talk]]) 17:30, 1 February 2024 (UTC) ::Somaliland is not a dejure state, in fact, never was either. Therefore, its claims control over territories is something that we are not certain of, also no international actor recognises Somaliland claim of these territories. Somaliland always had disputed border and now doesn't control all the eastern part of its claimed territory. Therefore option 3 is definitely not a choice. ::Somala's current map is a dejure. The world recognised Somalia with its 1960s border, the entire world. It makes sense to leave it with the current option. I will vote '''Option 1''' [[User:Nawal00|Nawal00]] ([[User talk:Nawal00|talk]]) 19:51, 2 February 2024 (UTC) ::Update:Secondary preference for '''Option 4''' [[User:ASmallMapleLeaf|ASmallMapleLeaf]] ([[User talk:ASmallMapleLeaf|talk]]) 18:43, 7 February 2024 (UTC) *'''Option 1''' - I don't think our maps typically represent what authority "de facto" controls a certain region. They more typically represent what the internationally recognized boundries are (e.g. [[Ukraine]]). It's a fair point that not representing regions that are "de facto" controlled by other parties may be slightly misleading for readers, but I think the overwhelming counter argument to that is that it's relatively easy for us to figure out internationally recognized borders, and relatively hard for us to figure out de facto borders. Trying to use de facto borders would just throw everything into chaos. [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 16:45, 2 February 2024 (UTC) *:I understand the point about not using ''actual de facto'' line of control, hence my leaning towards Option 3, but it must be said that even on the [[Ukraine]]'s page we have a map showing its de jure borders (The initial one), but then we have one showing territories currently occupied by Russia, as seen at '''File:Europe-Ukraine (disputed territory).svg'''. I actually never thought of using two maps beforehand, like it is on [[Ukraine]]. Perhaps it could work?[[User:ASmallMapleLeaf|ASmallMapleLeaf]] ([[User talk:ASmallMapleLeaf|talk]]) 17:51, 2 February 2024 (UTC) *::I'm a bit confused by your statement. Would you agree or disagree that the map for this article (i.e. Somalia) should show Somalia's de jure borders, like Ukraine's map show's its de jure borders? Two maps could make sense. Showing the "disputed territories" somewhere in the body seems reasonable. [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 19:27, 2 February 2024 (UTC) *:::Sorry, I find it a bit hard to put it accross, I was suggesting we show that Somalia does indeed claim Somaliland, but does not control it in its entirety, which could be indicated via a shade if lighter green (it was like this until a edit war in December that resulted in the map being given protected status). Two maps could be a comprimise by allowing Somalia's internationally recognized borders to be shown while allowing people to view what it de facto controls. [[User:ASmallMapleLeaf|ASmallMapleLeaf]] ([[User talk:ASmallMapleLeaf|talk]]) 21:12, 2 February 2024 (UTC) *::::(For an example of what a mean, see [[Morocco]] and how West Sahara is highlighted on the map, or [[Cyprus]] in which North Cyprus is shown as claimed but uncontrolled.) [[User:ASmallMapleLeaf|ASmallMapleLeaf]] ([[User talk:ASmallMapleLeaf|talk]]) 21:23, 2 February 2024 (UTC) *:::::Yeah. I mean I guess we sometimes represent de facto borders (e.g. Cyprus, Morocco, Moldovia), and sometimes de jure ones (e.g. Ukraine, Yemen, Myanmar). I'm really not sure what the distinction is between those places. I stick to what I said earlier about de jure borders being easier to represent. [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 22:07, 2 February 2024 (UTC) :(I added a fourth option there now, based off the comments of [[User:NickCT|NickCT]]) [[User:ASmallMapleLeaf|ASmallMapleLeaf]] ([[User talk:ASmallMapleLeaf|talk]]) 10:00, 4 February 2024 (UTC) :* '''Comment''' - I'm confused by the options here. I don't understand the difference between options 1 and 3, I'm unsure what 2 would look like, and 4 seems like it's still leaving questions unanswered. I was just looking at the page for [[Ukraine]], and for its European map, here, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Europe-Ukraine_(disputed_territory).svg#/media/File:Europe-Ukraine_(disputed_territory).svg, it shows the ''de jure ''and ''de facto'' territory in dark green, while showing the ''de jure'' but uncontrolled territory in light green. This would be my suggestion for Somalia, as well. [[User:Garnet Moss|Garnet Moss]] ([[User talk:Garnet Moss|talk]]) 00:04, 9 February 2024 (UTC) :*:Option 1 shows only Somalia with borders recognised by the UN, option 3 would show both Somalia and Somaliland on the map. You brought up the Ukraine map. In this context it would fall into Option 3. [[User:ASmallMapleLeaf|ASmallMapleLeaf]] ([[User talk:ASmallMapleLeaf|talk]]) 16:58, 9 February 2024 (UTC) :* '''Option 3''' if it looks like the maps in [[Cyprus]] and [[Georgia (country)]]. [[User:Alaexis|Alaexis]]_{[[User_talk:Alaexis|¿question?]]} 10:02, 20 February 2024 (UTC) :*:This seems sensible to me – the two-color maps in those articles are clear, neutral, and informative. —[[User:Mx. Granger|Mx. Granger]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Mx. Granger|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Mx. Granger|contribs]]) 14:41, 20 February 2024 (UTC) :*::The main problem for option 3 is that SL is shown much bigger than it controls. Option 1 could be a temporary solution, 3 is definitely no accurate and not the right choice [[User:Anwar8989|Anwar8989]] ([[User talk:Anwar8989|talk]]) 16:08, 20 February 2024 (UTC) :* '''Option 1''' as I commented above, SL map shared in the past is inaccurate and while a new map is to be generated, option 1 is the de jure most real map to adhere to. :* '''Option 4''' Ours is ok but doesn't give enough weight to the De Facto situation which is fairly stable and widely reported. [[User:Lukewarmbeer|Lukewarmbeer]] ([[User talk:Lukewarmbeer|talk]]) 09:46, 21 February 2024 (UTC) :* '''Option 4''' if there is reliable information about de facto boundaries. Otherwise '''option 1'''. [[User:Senorangel|Senorangel]] ([[User talk:Senorangel|talk]]) 04:16, 2 March 2024 (UTC) * '''Show de facto borders'''/claims using the different greens, this is the longstanding standard as laid out in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Maps/Conventions/Orthographic maps|map conventions]]. It's concerning that this is not one of the options, as we should not show Somaliland's de jure borders. If the de facto borders have stably changed, that is a reason to update the map, not to throw out our longstanding conventions to handle territorial disputes. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|CMD]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 11:37, 27 April 2024 (UTC) *:I admit, I do think I phrased this RFC poorly. I think I your refering to '''Option 2''' or '''Option 3'''. Option 2 would show what Somaliland has authority over Vs option 3 showing its claims. I am surprised it took this long for someone to even bring up conventions here. [[User:Fantastic Mr. Fox|Fantastic Mr. Fox]] ([[User talk:Fantastic Mr. Fox|talk]]) 12:07, 27 April 2024 (UTC) *::We should not show Somaliland's claims on this article, Somaliland's claims should be shown on the Somaliland article. This article should show Somalia's claims. Option 2 then, although a note that while this specific bout of conflict is new, it is not unique and control has shifted in this are frequently between the many actors involved. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|CMD]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 15:00, 27 April 2024 (UTC) *:::We need a new map that shows all areas identified as part of Somalia e.g all federal states including the newest SSC Khartoum as dark green and part controlled by SL as light green. Map that genuinely reflects the reality in the ground not the old ones that show smaller size of Somalia and larger SL territories [[User:Anwar8989|Anwar8989]] ([[User talk:Anwar8989|talk]]) 16:32, 28 April 2024 (UTC) *:Somaliland doesn’t have a dejure border as it is not recognised entity, add to that its claim border was never controlled and it has been reduced much further to the east since its war last year with new entity known as SSC Khatumo. So SL neither has recognised borders by the international community nor it controls the borders it claims. Nothing it settled here. So Somalia’s dejure it the best one to show. [[User:Sharwa|Sharwa]] ([[User talk:Sharwa|talk]]) 13:32, 27 April 2024 (UTC) *::Somalia's de jure border is shown in every option proposed. [[User:Chipmunkdavis|CMD]] ([[User talk:Chipmunkdavis|talk]]) 14:54, 27 April 2024 (UTC) :*'''Comment''' [[Serbia]] and Kosovo, Kashmir on the 3 pages, [[China]] and Taiwan, [[Israel]] and PTs and Golan heights, [[Venezuela]] and Esequibo, and [[Morocco]] and WS are shown with de jure and de facto, although [[Ukraine]] is shown with Crimea. There is a clear convention for de facto to be overlayed, so I think '''Option 2''' :[[User:Alexanderkowal|Alexanderkowal]] ([[User talk:Alexanderkowal|talk]]) 13:19, 23 May 2024 (UTC) == "THE Somali community" == What does this even mean? It's a very buzzword-ish way to refer to an entire population of a country. [[Special:Contributions/2603:7081:1603:A300:4B6C:E19C:E222:F8E1|2603:7081:1603:A300:4B6C:E19C:E222:F8E1]] ([[User talk:2603:7081:1603:A300:4B6C:E19C:E222:F8E1|talk]]) 22:12, 30 April 2024 (UTC) == Maraje == Maraje waa magaalo ku taal Somalia gaar ahaan Puntland oo ka tirsan Gobolka Sanaag Calmadow. Maraje waxaa dega Beesha Dubays Waa magaalo ku caan ah Beeraha iyo Xijiga. waa magaalo leh biyo Dur dur ah kuwaas oo looga faa'idaysto falashada Beeraha. Waxay 40km u jirtaa Bosaso [[User:Daarug|Daarug]] ([[User talk:Daarug|talk]]) 07:18, 17 July 2024 (UTC) == Independence Days and followed History Correction. == British Somaliland 26 June 1960 Italian Somaliland 1st July 1960 Union Day July 1st 1960 Union Withdrawal 18 May 1991 [[Special:Contributions/154.115.220.86|154.115.220.86]] ([[User talk:154.115.220.86|talk]]) 04:08, 30 July 2024 (UTC) == Semi-protected edit request on 15 August 2024 == {{edit semi-protected|Somalia|answered=yes}} In the history section of the Somalia page, it says: "The Darawiish defeated the Italian, British, Abyssinian colonial powers on numerous occasions, most notably, the 1903 victory at Cagaarweyne commanded by Suleiman Aden Galaydh, forcing the British Empire to retreat to the coastal region in the late 1900s. The Dervishes were finally defeated in 1920 by British airpower." The term "late 1900s" doesn't seem to fit here. I assume it means "early 1900s". [[User:Winston508|Winston508]] ([[User talk:Winston508|talk]]) 06:54, 15 August 2024 (UTC) :{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> [[User:Charliehdb|Charliehdb]] ([[User talk:Charliehdb|talk]]) 12:01, 16 August 2024 (UTC) == History of the Somali kingdoms, Sultanates == How come there was zero mention of the Warsangeli sultanates?. They are one of the longest kingdoms in somalia, behind ajuuran. They ruled b/w 1218 to 1886AD. These sultanates were probably one of the most well known in Somali history yet zero mention. This alone makes me question the credibility of the research done to compile this. [[User:War-Faahiye|War-Faahiye]] ([[User talk:War-Faahiye|talk]]) 03:00, 16 October 2024 (UTC) == Semi-protected edit request on 21 October 2024 == {{edit semi-protected|Somalia|answered=no}} {{subst:trim|1= <!-- State UNAMBIGUOUSLY your suggested changes below this line, preferably in a "change X to Y" format. Other editors need to know what to add or remove. Blank edit requests will be declined. --> <!-- Write your request ABOVE this line and do not remove the tildes and curly brackets below. --> }} ~~~~'