Talk:Duchy of Saint Sava

title etc

This article looked like a WP:POV fork, so I merged the histories to make things clear. Whichever way it goes, the rules are clear - references, references, references. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 22:04, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Looking at the persistent edit war, and the article history, it looks pretty lopsided - the editor(s) with a Serb nationalist slant place too much emphasis on the Serb qualities of this domain, while the opposing Croat/Bosniak/whatever side basically dismisses that out of hand. We need an impartial observer to determine whether any of this is relevant. I will also remind that on this matter, admins have the option of blocking abuse with a single warning. Because Zoupan (talk · contribs) started this latest round of mess with what looked like a content fork, and is persisting without any discussion on talk so far, he's the (first) recipient of such a final warning. I advise the others to stop the simple reverting and explain their edits in detail here, or they will get the same treatment. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 09:43, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Ducatus Sancti Sabae = Duchy of Saint Sava. The fact that it is referred to as Duchy of Herzegovina (Duchy of the Duke's/Herzog's Land), is clearly part of the intro (if this is the problem with the Croat/Bosniak/whatever side). If you read the article there is none of "Serb nationalism", just compare the two revisions and their quality, and explain your dislikes of the content. So far the expanding of the article is good, I dont see any faults with the current sourced revision. --Zoupan (talk) 18:38, 3 April 2011 (UTC) Blocked sock:Ajdebre.

Long overdue rename from previous move without solid source and basis in reality

Prior to his block, sock-puppeteer Zoupan/Ajdebre moved the article from its original title "Duchy of Herzegovina", and then did it a few more times, every time without discussion, hence prompting an edit-wars, because the moves were unwarranted and controversial as they were without basis in reality and in historical facts, or basis in modern solid mainstream scholarship. Editors in good standing and with established credibility, Joy, Surtiscna, Potocnik, Praxis, and Kebeta attempted to alleviate the damage but Zoupan/Ajdebre kept reverting them. However, I wonder if anyone who still agree with a mess Zoupan/Ajdebre was creating, really thought that this kind of misinterpretation of data, misrepresentation of historical reality, and misuse of sources, could really withstand scrutiny?

• First ref is 274 years old "Illyricum vetus & novum, siue, Historia regnorum Dalmatiae, Croatiae, Slavoniae, Bosniae, Serviae, atque Bulgariae", by Caroli Du Fresne domini Du Cange - can not be checked;
  

• ^{(Subsequently inserted)} - In above TP section, sock-master, Zoupan, claimed that "Ducatus Sancti Sabae -equals- Duchy of Saint Sava.". He refed this with Charles du Fresne's 300yr. old work, which really mention "Ducatus Sancti Sabae", but he lied about translation, which he claimed to be "Duchy of St.Sava", which simply is not true. "Ducatus Sancti Sabae" means, simply and literally, "Duke of Saint Sava".--౪ Santa ౪^99° 21:08, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

• Second is Nebojša Damnjanović's and Vladimir Merenik's "The first Serbian uprising and the restoration of the Bosniak[?!] state". Who are Damnjanović and Merenik, and where is published and where and how many time is cited/referenced this work of theirs and by whom - can not be checked;
  
• Third is Vaso Čubrilović who, beside being in snipet previews and can't be checked, isn't exactly a foremost authority on historical research and source of information, especially since we know, hopefully, how to use good mainstream contemporary, modern and post-modern, researchers which are in abundance in Serbo-Croatian.
  

Actually, with an exception of Zlatar and Fine, it is impossible to check these refs and its source texts. Du Cange is known as a pioneer in research of the Byzantine history but his time has long passed, Fine is still foremost authority for Balkans history, but the rest are obscure authors. There is one particularly weird reference - "The Danube-Aegean waterway project: a paper" (?!) And even stranger yet is this choice of sources, when we have a plenty of distinguished medievalists from all over former Yugoslavia, who comprehensively researched Herzeg Stjepan specifically! Why blocked sock-puppeteer Zoupan/Ajdebre moved this article and re-titled it in this way, how controversial was that move, most importantly, how strong are sources used to justify such a controversial move, how many of these sources is out there if I couldn't find any, how common is this name from the articles title (used for the land which was never a state to any degree(!) considering any era, as noted by Surtiscna in one of edit-summaries) in mainstream scholarship, especially contemporary to us?
Now, here's how Stjepan Vukčić, the guy who took the title Herzog of Saint Sava, styled himself in his charters, including period from time he titled himself that way until his death in 1466, three years after Bosnian Kingdom was annihilated - in full title and style between 1448-66 used interchangeably:

• "By the Grace of God Stjepan Herceg of Saint Sava, Lord of Hum and Bosnian Grand Duke, Knyaz of Drina and the rest"
• "By the Grace of God Herceg of Hum and Duke of Primorje, Bosnian Grand Duke, Knyaz of Drina and the rest"
  

Point to a part of Stjepan's title where the realm under his domain is mentioned - how he, Stjepan Vukčić, calls his realm!? I am certainly aware of the methodology or ways historians name former countries when and if they have first hand sources, when they can confirm how former rulers called their realms - they, historians, don't invent new ones (especially not fake ones), nor reinterpret old ones, they simply use the name as it was used when that realm existed, and hopefully left behind numerous clues in numerous written monuments. They also say that Herzeg Stjepan's is one of the medieval characters whose life is the best documented among pre-Ottoman South Slavic elites.
So, if anyone is really willing to contest this move, they should first accept that instead of presenting couple of obscure sources, expressing surprising and hence fringe view, only credible mainstream medievalists who researched, specifically, life and deeds of the Herzeg Stjepan should be used, such as probably the most distinguished and decorated historian and medievalist among Serbian scientists, Sima Ćirković, who is the one who made this statement of Herzeg's life being the best documented.(S.Ćirković, Herzeg Stjepan Vukčić-Kosača i njegovo doba, Intro/Uvod pp.1, 2)
Now, proper sources:

• Sima Ćirković and his Herzeg Stjepan Vukčić-Kosača i njegovo doba, and Istorija srednjovekovne bosanske države - for instance, the best insight on how Ćirković writes about our article subject is given on pp.336, 337 - there is no fabled land nor country, let alone "short-lived state", called "Duchy of St.Sava". Ćirković described Herzeg Stejpan while he was on his death-bed dictating his last words in 1466, and when he mentions his country Bosnia, three years after its annihilation. Nowhere in the book is mentioned such a "state" called Duchy of St.Sava;
• Marko Vego Postanak srednjovjekovne bosanske države - the most direct and most obvious description can be read in this one, pp.42-50, and last two para. on p.48 in particular;
• Pavao Anđelić's, on "Humska zemlja" in Studije o teritorijalno političkoj organizaciji srednjovjekovne Bosne, pp. 239, 240.
  

Sima Ćirković also commended authors Mavro Orbini i Jakov Lukarević as the first to devote considerable and deserved attention to Herzeg's life in their works. On the sidenote, another was Ljubo Jovanović, who calls Bosnian Kingdom a Serb kingdom, which was usual even expected for Serbian and Croatian authors of the age (19th c.), but not even he used this fake name, "Duchy of Saint Sava", for Hum/Herzegovina in his Stjepan Vukčić Kosača. He calls it "Humsko vojvodstvo" - actually, all proper medievalists, regardless of era, use these names: "Hum", "Humska zemlja", from 1450's "Hercegovina" ("Herzegovina").--౪ Santa ౪^99° 05:49, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Marko Vego's, Postanak srednjovjekovne bosanske države, Chapter: Humska zemlja, p.48

U povelji od 29. januara 1448. godine herceg Stjepan naziva se “božijom milošću herceg Humske zemlje i primorski vojvoda, veliki vojvoda bosanskog rusaga (države), knez drinski i još drugih krajeva“. U potvrdi hercega Stjepana od 5. jula 1450. godine (...) se oslovio: "Mi gospodin Stjepan, herceg od Svetoga Save, gospodar humski i veliki vojvoda rusaga bosanskoga, knez drinski i k tomu“. Herceg Stjepan s titulom "herceg od Svetoga Save (Ducatus s. Sabbe)“ podigao je svoj ugled i čitavog plemena Kosača unutar bosanske države i vani. Zato je sve okupljene zemlje u sklopu Hercegovine nazvao Hercegovinom. Tu se radilo o zemljama: Humskoj zemlji, Zagorju, oblasti Drini, Rudinama, Banjanima, Trebinju, Gornjoj i Donjoj Zeti, Polimlju, Dračevici, Krajini i Poljici kod Cetine. Nije isključeno da je naziv Hercegovina potekao i od drugih država. Prvi put se topografski naziv Hercegovina za oznaku svih zemalja hercega Stjepana Vukčića-Kosače pojavljuje na historijskoj pozornici 1. februara 1454. go- dine u pismu osmanskog komandanta Esebega iz Skoplja. Tako se pojam Humska zemlja postepeno gubi da ustupi mjesto novom imenu zemlje hercega Stjepana — Hercegovini.

--౪ Santa ౪^99° 05:49, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Zachlumia

Noticing the recent rename, I had a look, and it struck me - why are we not linking Zachlumia early in this article? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 18:54, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Of course, it should be part of the History section, first paragraph if not entire sub-section, albeit small but decently elaborated. It was precluding political reality, which existed on the ground prior to Stjepan II acquisition of entire region in 1326, roughly, with Zahumlje, Travunija, Primorije and Narenta, which will be placed under Kosača family over-lordship - constitution of Hum marked a rise of that family to prominence. That's a necessary prehistory of Humska zemlja. However, I have battled with the proper title, and decided to use Serbo-Croatian name as it is the only proper name used academically. Meanwhile, significant text changes will have to wait - I have only as much time to make these bit-by-bit improvements, for the time being. Unless someone jumps on board and helps.--౪ Santa ౪^99° 05:05, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

"Humska zemlja / Zahumlje" and "Duchy of St. Sava" should be separated

Possible vandalism. The reasons for removing the text are probably chauvinistic. Relevant historical sources and literature are listed. With a few clicks, the correctness of the data can be checked. If there is any objection, write it and we will discuss it and I will also quote other relevant titles if necessary. VERY IMPORTANT NOTE: The article "Humska zemlja" or "Zahumlje" and "Duchy of St. Sava" should be separated. Hum/Zahumlje was a historical area from 7 -14 centuries and with special state traditions (up to the middle of 14 centuries as part of Raska) while Duchy of Saint Sava /Herzegovina Svetoga Save/Ducatus Sancti Sabe) has been the area and state of Kosača noble family in 15th century. Even in a geographical sense there is a difference between this the two terms. There is already an article on wikipedia (Zahumlje/Principality of Hum)). Despite this, the title of article "Duchy of Saint Sava" was changed to "Humska zemlja" for non-scientific reasons. This led to confusion as well. In any case, the omission in the title needs to be corrected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.165.152.93 (talk) 02:43, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Also, Mavro Orbini (in his work "Il Regno de gli Slavi") has two different chapters regarding this topic:" The Principality of Hum" and "The Duchy of Saint Sava" In the last part of the book. If necessary, I can post photos of the chapters with pagination, as well as parts from DAI that refer to Zahumlje, Travunija, Konavle and Paganija. It is very important not to confuse these two terms. This often happens to those who deal with history recreationally or for nationalist reasons. Relevant sources are usually ignored or such people do not know the historical sources at all. I have to notice an identical and simultaneous change on Bosnian and Croatian Wikipedia. Croatian Wikipedia has the lowest rating and is marked as extremely chauvinistic. We must not allow such a practice to be copied to the English Wikipedia. Regarding this problem, I recommend the following texts: https://balkaninsight.com/2018/03/26/how-croatian-wikipedia-made-a-concentration-camp-disappear-03-23-2018/ https://www.balcanicaucaso.org/eng/Areas/Croatia/Croatian-language-Wikipedia-when-the-extreme-right-rewrites-history-190081 https://www.index.hr/vijesti/clanak/hrvatska-wikipedia-je-takvo-smece-da-su-i-vlasnici-digli-ruke-od-nje/2138213.aspx In 2021 the Wikimedia Foundation posted a job ad for a Disinformation evaluator position, with the aim to further examine disputed content on the Croatian Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.165.152.93 (talk) 02:55, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

This is just a very short selection from the bibliography:

• Vogel, Walther (2015). Dan neue Europa und seine historisch-geografischen Grudlagen (jezik: njemački). Paderborn: Salzwasser Verlag GmbH. ISBN 978-3-84607-843-3. p 336,
• Lejla Nakas, Konkordancijski Rjecnik Cirilskih Povelja Srednjovjekovne Bosne p 42-49, p 113, 114, 118-125, 129-132, 135-139 https://www.academia.edu/35567380/Konkordancijski_rjecnik_cirilskih_povelja_srednjovjekovne_Bosne .

There are 19 charters (Stjepan Vukčić Kosača and his sons) with this title. If necessary, I can post photos of all 19 charters. In any case, everything is easy to check in the above literature (L. Nakaš) unless you have a chauvinistic odium towards the Cyrillic alphabet.

• Hösch, Edgar (2018). Geschichte der Balkanländer; Von der Frühzeit bis zur Gegenwart (jezik: njemački). München: C. H. Beck. ISBN 978-3-406-57299-9. p 75, The Late Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Late Twelfth Century to the Ottoman Conquest p 578
• Caroli Du Fresne domini Du Cange Illyricum vetus & novum, siue, Historia regnorum Dalmatiae, Croatiae, Slavoniae, Bosniae, Serviae, atque Bulgariae p 126 Il Regno de gli Slavi by Mavro Orbini https://books.google.ba/books?id=Fx3OntcdUkQC&redir_esc=y, Mavro Orbini, Kraljevstvo Slovena, p 439-447
• Moravcsik, Gyula, ed. (1967) [1949]. Constantine Porphyrogenitus: De Administrando Imperio (2nd revised ed.). Washington D.C.: Dumbarton Oaks Center for Byzantine Studies. ISBN 9780884020219. chapter 32-33

https://prnt.sc/10m3maw

• Fine, John V. A. Jr. (1991) [1983]. The Early Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Sixth to the Late Twelfth Century. Ann Arbor, Michigan: University of Michigan Press. ISBN 0-472-08149-7., pp 49-59, pp 141, pp 159-160, pp 171-179, pp 180, pp 185-186, pp 202-208, pp 219, pp 291
• Fine, John Van Antwerp (1994) [1987]. The Late Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Late Twelfth Century to the Ottoman Conquest. Ann Arbor, Michigan: University of Michigan Press. ISBN 0-472-08260-4. pp 17-21, pp 142-149, pp 275-285, pp 322-325, 99 368-370, pp 384-395, pp 408-414, pp 453-488, pp 491-492,pp 498, pp 516, pp 531-534, pp 551-552, pp 555, pp 560, pp 577-590, pp 599, pp 611

https://prnt.sc/10lyvwo https://app.box.com/s/06dsf2t6z8nsdudev1ix015zp1j42hyh

• Mak Dizdar, Stari Bosanski tekstovi pp 112 http://pdfknjige.net/knjiga.php?pdf=stari-bosanski-tekstovi
• Momčilo Spremić, Balkanski vazali kralja Alfonsa Aragonskog, Prekinut uspon, Beograd 2005, pp. 355–358

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/BOSNIA.htm#_Toc359577451 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.165.152.93 (talk) 22:55, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Not one of these sources maintain your position, as not one mention any kind of "duchy" let alone "duchy" with that name - that Stjepan Kosača renamed his title from "herzog of Hum" to "herzog of St.Sava", but nevertheless used both interchangeably until his death, is in no way disputed, however, that does not influence the fact that the land was and still is referred to as Hum (Humska zemlja, in English Hum Land) - his title was "herzog of St.Sava and Lord of Hum", Hum being the land, and of St.Sava titular suffix referring to a saint, so he was not Lord of Duchy of St.Sava, because there was no duchy to begin with, and certainly not with that name(!), and never is any one historian nor primary historical source referred to it as "duchy of St.Sava". You nor anyone else should interpret his title and use that interpretation to give unsupported name to historic land and then title our article - that's blatant OR.

Further, these accusations and aspersions should be enough to bring an IP permanent block.--౪ Santa ౪^99° 10:56, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

I personally have not heard about "Duchy of St. Sava". Today I researched Serbian and Croatian or Bosnian sources but I do not find quality sources which speak of it, only some title is mentioned. I suggest that newer Balkan sources be exposed first to see what this is about. Also a map which existed which determines the territory of that "Duchy" is WP:OR because there is no source for confirmation. Mikola22 (talk) 12:29, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Non whatsoever ! The name "Duchy of St. Sava" is invention of the blocked POV-pusher and sock known under username Zoupan, who used Ajdebre and Ardic-as Zoupan as sock-accounts to support damage he was making to the article. This sock has pulled this name out of his magic hat and re-titled the article back in 2011, disregarding in the process many objections espoused by User:Joy. who objected it here in TP above, and editors User:Surtsicna, User:Praxis Icosahedron, User:Potočnik, User:Kebeta, all of whom objected in a number of reverts with elaborate edit-summaries (can be observed in article's history page).--౪ Santa ౪^99° 13:39, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Further, this mess 109.165.152.93 (talk · contribs) is creating on article Talk page should be dealt with by admin. Although I suspect the IP belong to bs.wiki admin who goes under the username AnToni, these unsigned accusations of perceived vandalism, chauvinism, nationalism, invoking alleged analogy between our article and project with article and wikipedia in Croatian language, misrepresenting sources (all of the above listed) through misinterpretation and misreading the source texts, disregarding WP:OR and WP:RS in its all relating instances (such as prim, second, tert distinction; academic specificity of training and age for/of scholarship; etc.), must be stooped in its tracks, especially now when we have one quite arduous arbitration enforcement case regarding these kind of scope problems.--౪ Santa ౪^99° 14:17, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

And NO, I don't have a chauvinistic odium towards the Cyrillic alphabet, my wife is a Belgrade born and bred Serb woman, which makes our three children at least half-Serbs, unless they say differently! You are probably AnToni, which, if true, means that you are an admin of one of the WMF's project, namely Wikipedia in Bosnian language. That would put you in a position where you should know better how to keep decorum and personal conduct at tolerable minimum.--౪ Santa ౪^99° 14:30, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Duke of Saint Sava

The title "Duke of Saint Sava" is well attested historical title, and the subject of this article is defined by that title, and its historical scope (15th century). We also have a more general article, on the region of "Humska zemlja", that has a common English title: Zachlumia. There is no need to confuse those two subjects, or to corrupt this article, that has its distinctive theme. Here are some search results for the English version of the title:

• Google Books Search for the title "Duke of St. Sava"
• Google Scholar Search for the title "Duke of St. Sava"
• Google Books Search for the title "Duke of Saint Sava"
• Google Scholar Search for the title "Duke of Saint Sava"

Search entries for variants of the same title in other languages are showing similar results. This article is well defined, by the historical scope of this feudal title. Does anyone here disputes the historicity of this title? Sorabino (talk) 03:51, 18 March 2021 (UTC) "

"title of the Duke of Saint Sava". You don't see that all sources talking about the title. We need sources that speak of existence, political entity and history of that "Duchy" not "title" because the article talks about "Duchy of St Sava". Present informations are in fact WP:OR because in the context is the "title" not "Duchy".

First source from Fine, John Van Antwerp Jr. "The Early Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Sixth to the Late Twelfth Century" on page 160 don't talk about "Duchy". Source of "Mak Dizdar, Stari Bosanski tekstovi" is source which expose primary information's.

• You first must expose Serbian, Croatian or Bosnian sources in which historians speak about Duchy. Conclusions from these sources must be the basis in the talk page decision because without these sources this is an artificial article based on some title which has been mentioned a couple of times somewhere through history. For now this article is actually a promotion of OR and WP:SYN. Mikola22 (talk) 06:21, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Mikola22, could we all agree, for start, that the medieval feudal title "Duke of Saint Sava" (15th century) was a historical reality, well attested in sources, and also used in historiography, and could we also agree that this article was created to present the content on the historical and political scope of that title? Sorabino (talk) 06:45, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

The sources talk about it (title) so we have to respect that but sources do not talk about "Duchy" ie present "Duchy" context. All sources and citations should be presented which talk about "Duchy" and then we can start discussing whether this is enough for existence of an independent article. This is my opinion. Mikola22 (talk) 08:30, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Mikola22, ok - we agree on something - that historical feudal title (Duke of Saint Sava) itself is not disputed here. Could we also agree that the term "Humska zemlja" refers to "Hum" or "Zahumlje" in general, a subject that is fuly covered in the main article that has an English title: Zachlumia. Since we have that general article on Humska zemlja = Hum = Zahumlje = Zachlumia (all synonyms) it would be improper to use the term "Humska zemlja" for the title of any other, more specific and narrower article, like this one, that refers only to the 15th century title "Duke of Saint Sava" and its historical scope. Sorabino (talk) 08:47, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

In my opinion, you go too wide with conclusions. It should be focus on this article and the sources that talk about specific "Duchy of St Sava", ie of territory, history, political entity, boundaries of that entity, etc. To see what it's about. Mikola22 (talk) 08:58, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Mikola22, this article has a very specific subject, that is well defined by the historical and political scope of the title "Duke of Saint Sava" (15th century). The article was stable, since its very creation up to those recent changes and moves, made by one user (Santasa99). It seems that he wanted to create an article on the Bosnian period of rule over this region (14th-15th centuries) but instead of writing such article, he tried to use this article, disregarding the fact that those are two different subjects. If someone would want to create a specific article on the Bosnian period of rule over this region, that would be totally OK, but that should be a new article, while this article (DoSS) should maintain its own scope. Wouldn′t that be the best solution? Sorabino (talk) 09:13, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

I will repeat since Sorabino moving discussion with these breaks, disregarding what was said before: the name "Duchy of St. Sava" is invention of the blocked POV-pusher and sock known under username Zoupan, who used Ajdebre and Zoupan as sock-accounts to support damage he was making to the article. This sock has pulled this name out of his magic hat and re-titled the article back in 2011, disregarding in the process many objections espoused by User:Joy. who objected it here in TP above, and editors User:Surtsicna, User:Praxis Icosahedron, User:Potočnik, User:Kebeta, all of whom objected in a number of reverts with elaborate edit-summaries (can be observed in article's history page).

Sorabino should revert themselves in order to halt the procedures which I intend to follow on this issue - very likely socking, moving the page and redirects without RS evidence and consensus, misinterpreting RS, completely inventing the topic and article scope in a worst OR I encountered in my 10+years on the project.

Just for the record and to attest Mikola22 statement:

• Zachlumia was political entity separate from the political entity called Humska zemlja both in territory these entities covered and in epoch they existed - Humska zemlja was new political reality 1326, when Ban Stjepan II Kotromanić annexed small counties of Zachlumia, Nerenta, Travunia, Primorije with Konavle. From 1326 to 1482 it was only called Humska zemlja, although from 1454 name Herzegovina started to appear however Humska zemlja was still the only name which could be found in primary sources, that is in medieval charters. This is all from medievalists whose very narrow interest was medieval Serbia, Bosnia, Humska zemlja, and people like herzog Kosača, namely Serbian medievalists Mihajlo Dinić and Sima Ćirković, Bosnian medievalists Pavao Anđelić and Marko Vego.--౪ Santa ౪^99° 12:13, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

• Santasa99, first: I had many disputes with that former user, who was known as "Zoupan" (look at my talk page). Second: this article is about medieval feudal title "Duke of Saint Sava" and its historical and political scope (15th century). If you want to create an article on the period of Bosnian rule in those regions (14th-15century) go ahead, but please stop corrupting this article. Historical title (Duke of Saint Sava) is relevant enough to have an article, as so many other feudal titles and polities they represented. There are hundreds of such articles. And please, can we at least agree that the title "Duke of Saint Sava" is well attested in historical sources, and thus used in historiography? I hope that you are not deniying that. Sorabino (talk) 12:32, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

No, this article is certainly about Duchy of St. Sava. If it's about title it should be named Duke of St. Sava, which is attested title of Stjepan Kosača, for sure. --Mhare (talk) 13:01, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Mhare, are you proposing to move this article to "Duke of Saint Sava" thus referring directly to that feudal title? You are aware that historical and political scope of that title would still be the part of the article, so in essence, the content would be practically unchanged in that aspect, but also widened with all later uses and mentions of the title. That would be an interesting addition for sure. Sorabino (talk) 13:29, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Sorabino, I realized I might don't know too much about this field as I might have thought, as you have maybe noticed on the talk pages of Bosnian wiki. The evidence Santasa provided made (especialy Ćorović) a good point, but also see other literature with Dutchy of St Sava so I'm not entirely sure. I just observed you are talking about title, as The Guy was Duke of Saint Sava, Lord of Hum (translated Gospodar Humske zemlje). --Mhare (talk) 08:52, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

I don't know about your disputes with Zoupan, he is irrelevant in your context, possibility of your IP's being used for editing yesterday is.

In line with Mhare, who observed correctly, if your, Sorabino, intention is to create article solely about the noble title "Duke of Saint Sava", which would then be properly referred to as "duchy", then you should not do following:

1. you should not use this particular article but create new one instead - this article is connected with myriad of other articles, navboxes, wiki-data, and you are disrupting all those links and connections; hell, you even moved the redirect(!);
2. you should not use "Former countries" Infobox and other templates indicative of country/land/antity;
3. you should not use article narrative to inject misinformation on the name for the land or political entity, where this particular title is used by its nobility.
4. you should not use this particular article but create new one instead for reason stated under 1.

But even if your intention is to create a new article about the noble title, you really need to bare in mind the strict notability policy of this project (WP:NOTA), because such article would be extremely irrelevant in my eyes, since we have no RS about it, except those in which medievalist just mentioning it, however nobody not one expert ever researched that topic, what it was, how was created, how was granted, what was its position in peerage system. and do on - we simply don't have scholarship at our disposal, particular research of peerage system since such institute never existed in Serbia and Bosnia that researchers could begin with! All this means that such an article on the title would be removed - hell, we barely can describe Balkan medieval titles like vojvoda, župan and knez, we have articles in poor state and unreferenced because we don't have research about that either.

However, your intention is not clear as seen from your earlier explanations and reverts, and your explanation at Ed Johnston TP where you are citing tertiary source (encyclopaedia published in 1953) and comparative historical overview written before 1911 on entire medieval epoch and entire, as author calls it, Eastern Roman Empire, so it seem that you just using topic of "nobility title" to sneak in article about the alleged political entity and land called "Duchy of Saint Sava". Either way I advise you to revert yourself in light of the currently discussed discretionary sanctions on the Balkan scope.--౪ Santa ౪^99° 13:14, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

• This is a stable article, with a well defined subject. Its title is accepted and used in English historiography. Here are just two selected references, from notable publications: The Cambridge Medieval History, t. 4 (1923): Duchy of St Sava and Encyclopædia Britannica, t. 15 (1953): "Duchy of St Sava". There are many other sources that could be added to support the use of that title. Sorabino (talk) 13:20, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Nothing is "stable" and nothing is "well defined" - you are now moving both, this page and its redirect, your last move is done over redirect and all against consensus and objection of three editors. You are using and misusing sources and fringe sources, and you are misinterpreting your intentions with the article scope. @EdJohnston: I don't want to continue this discussion on your TP, but if you find this problem intriguing enough we would really, really appreciate some interjection from you.--౪ Santa ౪^99° 13:36, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

One additional remark to @EdJohnston:, if you decide to get involved with this: please, take into consideration to move page back to its evidence based proper name "Humska zemlja", which also has consensus among three editor (myself included), and then, I guess, move protection would be next step, as Sorabino obviously have no intentions to back down despite the objection of three editors who refused to reach consensus on Sorabino's position. Sorabino's references are fringe, outdated and out of context - Sorabino misrepresents his intentions about the scope and in line with that they misrepresent sources. I can explain further if needed.--౪ Santa ౪^99° 14:21, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Santasa99, can you please explain why are you trying to replace the entire subject of this article with a different subject, when you can create a new article under whatever subject you want, and leave this article in its stable state, as was defined since its very creation years ago. If The Cambridge Medieval History and Encyclopædia Britannica are not good enough sources for you, well that is something else then. Why are you so against the old medieval feudal title of the Dukes of Saint Sava? Are you generaly oppose to an article on that subject? Sorabino (talk) 14:55, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

This article was never about the noble title, it was always about the country, it was about the country before I stepped in, and it still is about the country ! It's you who changes the scope of the article, however it is obvious to me, and to Mhare (from his above statement), that you are just using that rational where you supposedly want it to be about the title, when in actuality article is still about the country and you explained it yourself that you want it to be about the historical and political scope of the title "Duke of Saint Sava" (15th century), which is nothing but again about the country. If you want to create an article about the title, you can try to do that, but I believe it would never cross notability threshold, as I explained it earlier above, but you obviously don't read my posts in full if at all. However, you need to desist and rollback your re-namings, so that we have all the navboxes, categories, and links referring to this article not messed up.--౪ Santa ౪^99° 15:22, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Articles on the Duchy of Saint Sava exist on 13 (thirteen) Wikipedia projects. I am not worried, after I just saw what was happening on Bosnian Wikipedia, in relation to the parallel article (Vojvodstvo Svetog Save). BW administrator was right to protect that article from further vandalism, and the same thing should happen here. Sorabino (talk) 15:33, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

You are not worried, but your conduct would worry me for sure. You have moved the page, then you moved the redirect, then you renamed the page using improper English language - when you realized that I am able to undo your reverts, where you reinstated old name "Duchy of Saint Sava", you came up with an idea to change the name completely, but since "Duchy of St. Sava" with this "Saint" abbreviation "St." is in existence, you tweaked it by removing a full stop from its abbreviation "St" ! Now we have article with a title "Duchy of St Sava". You should read Wikipedia:Page-move war not just Wikipedia:Moving a page.--౪ Santa ౪^99° 16:11, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

@Sorabino, unfortunately I can't support this article because you have not presented sources that speak of the duchy. Sources mention the title and perhaps some source duchy but without more detailed information. If I had been asked to provide sources and data I would done this immediately. You must to acquaint the editors with the facts, in this(your) way we know nothing. Mikola22 (talk) 16:32, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Duchy of Saint Sava - More historical sources

Here are some other historical sources that Orbini referred to. All detachments are Western (predominantly Catholic) sources. In order to fight against false information that usually comes from right-wingers and ignoramuses, it would be good to include these photos (especially this inscription of Queen Catherine of Rome) or some of them in the article (with a short translation into English).

From "Il Regno degli Sclavi" from 1601 (Serbo-Croatian translation 2016) (Mavro Orbini) according to Roman Catholic Church sources. the Serbo-Croatian edition of this source from 2016 has an appendix at the end of the book, which contains photographs of the original edition with a list of authors to whom Orbini referred. This complete edition of this source (2016) has an appendix at the end of the book that contains photographs of the original edition with a list of authors to whom Orbini referred. Duchy of Saint Sava: https://ibb.co/513KK0y Principality of Hum: https://ibb.co/7CYr27k An inscription from the grave of the last Bosnian queen Katarina, daughter of Stjepan Vukčić Kosača. Inscription in Latin script in the old Serbo-Croatian language and Latin language. I think, the inscription from Rome should be published in article: https://ibb.co/XybnSxM Cropped photo for publication in the article: https://prnt.sc/10pfizo Whole pages (to verify the veracity of the information - end 431 and beginning 432 pages): 1 https://ibb.co/Hz359Zv 2 https://ibb.co/4jTKXTr I have many more historical sources as well as relevant literature (per review), very high-quality photographs of several original charters concerning "Herceg of Saint Sava" with an additional translation into the modern Serbo-Croatian language. I still have a lot of historical sources as well as relevant literature (according to the review). As I said earlier, I will post historical sources as needed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.165.153.242 (talk) 23:50, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Largest seal of Kosača noble family (from the book Srednjovjekovni pečati iz Bosne i Hercegovine by Pavao Anđelić) https://ibb.co/XFFP66Y Larger photo: https://ibb.co/7KhqYTG if anything is unclear feel free to ask me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.165.153.242 (talk) 00:06, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Mavro Orbini lived in the 16/17th century. We tend to use newer secondary sources. Tezwoo (talk) 00:08, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

The process of proving an allegation begins with quoting historical sources that are from the time we are writing about or that are close to that time. After that comes the citation of scientific papers. In any case, both types of evidence are represented in the references. If necessary, I will add more references to this TP discussion, although it is not clear to me at all, what more should be added when someone has already added a articles from the Encyclopedia Britannica. On other Wikipedia articles such evidence is taken as relevant. https://books.google.com/books?id=j5DWAAAAMAAJ&q=%22duchy+of+st+sava%22&redir_esc=y

Life of Justinian by Theophilus J Bryce, C Jireček - The English Historical Review, 1887 - JSTOR … Hoc Agathias de bello Gothico Bederinam appellat et hodie sub Turcis inter fines antique Dar- danim et recentioris Hercegovinm seu DUCATUS SANCTI SABAE visuntur tam intra quam extra civitatem complura vestigia et rudera eximiorum vestigiorum mdificiorum estque titulus Screenshot: https://prnt.sc/10pggfb

Stjepan/Ahmedpaša Hercegović (1456.?-1517.) u svjetlu dubrovačkih, talijanskih i osmanskih izvora P Vrankić - Hercegovina: Časopis za kulturno i povijesno nasljeđe, 2017 - hrcak.srce.hr … Jedan lokalni sukob poprimio je međunarodne dimenzije, dok je sultan Mehmed gotovo neometano osvajao Carigrad i stvarao povoljne uvjete za definitivno zaposjedanje Srbije, Bosne i Vojvodstva Svetoga Save (DUCATUS SANCTI SABAE) Screenshott: https://prnt.sc/10pggri — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.165.153.242 (talk) 00:36, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

What do unsigned user want to prove - that noble title existed ? That the title was styled as Herzeg of Saint Sava ? Can you point to anyones claim where this fact is disputed ?

Or, are you trying to prove that land was called "Vojvodsto Svetog Save" (approx. English = Duchy of Saint Sava) ?

If you want to prove that land was called "Duchy of Saint Sava" then you need better source then 16th - 19th century manuscripts, 19th century European itineraries, 19th and early 20th century European atlas-books or comparative historical overviews or early 20th century European encyclopedias, all per WP:RS ! Not that these sources talk about name for the land, they don't, they all talk about noble title - you and Sorabino derive the land name from the noble title, and that's WP:OR.

Here's proper source, written by medievalist in the second part of the 20th century or very late 20th century:

• "Humska zemlja u srednjem veku", 1996, by Siniša Mišić, Professor of the National History of the Middle Ages, University of Belgrade; [1]
• "Herzeg Stjepan Vukčić-Kosača i njegovo doba", (but seminal research and most important on the subject to this day), Sima Ćirković - the best insight on how Ćirković writes about our article subject is given on pp.336, 337 - there is no land called "Duchy of St.Sava"; [2]
• "Istorija srednjovekovne bosanske države", 1964 (same), Sima Ćirković; [3]
• "Povijest Humske zemlje", 1937 (but seminal research and relevant today), Marko Vego - Vego is not included on scholar because he lived before Google--౪ Santa ౪^99° 00:39, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

IMPORTANT NOTE: On this occasion, I once again draw attention to the infiltration of right-wing editors from the Croatian Wikipedia, which is qualified as chauvinistic garbage: https://balkaninsight.com/2018/03/26/how-croatian-wikipedia-made-a-concentration-camp-disappear-03-23-2018/ https://www.balcanicaucaso.org/eng/Areas/Croatia/Croatian-language-Wikipedia-when-the-extreme-right-rewrites-history-190081

The abundance of historical sources as well as relevant literature here is deliberately ignored or ignorance is involved. In any case, the tendency to edit as on the Croatian Wikipedia has been very noticeable lately. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.165.153.242 (talk) 00:43, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Have you read the books mentioned at all? Everything I have written is in keeping with those books. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.165.153.242 (talk) 00:50, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

I'm trying to understand what the problem is. I proved that the title "Duke of St. Sava" is historically attested in medieval historical sources, and after that I mentioned the works of relevant Western historians (Jirecek, etc.) to whom no one can dispute objectivity, in which the term "Ducatus Sancti Sabae" is mentioned. Not to mention that someone found that term in the Encyclopedia Britannica.

Since when is it disputable that a duke rules a duchy? A duke cannot rule a principality or a kingdom right? In what parallel universe do you live?

QUOTE: "A duke (male) can either be a monarch ranked below the emperor, king, and grand duke ruling over a duchy or a member of royalty or nobility, historically of highest rank, below princes of nobility and grand dukes. "

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke

"A duchy is a medieval country, territory, fief, or domain ruled by a duke or duchess, a high-ranking nobleman hierarchically second to the king or queen in European tradition. " Surce: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy

German wikipedia: Herzog (althochdeutsch herizogo, ursprünglich Führer, Heerführer im Kriege)[1] ist ein Adelstitel. Im Französischen entspricht er dem duc, im Englischen dem duke, im Spanischen dem duque, im Italienischen dem duca, im Ungarischen herceg, im Portugiesischen dem duque und im Polnischen dem wojewoda. Die Bezeichnungen in den romanischen Sprachen gehen auf lateinisch dux „Anführer“ zurück. Source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herzog

Herzogtum, lat. DUCATUS, ist der stammesbezogene bzw. territoriale Amts- und Herrschaftsbereich eines Herzogs. Source:https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herzogtum — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.165.153.242 (talk) 01:18, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Along with all the other listed sources, I do not see what is disputable here. Unless there is some vile and chauvinistic intent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.165.153.242 (talk) 01:05, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

User Santasa99 deleted this article from the Croatian Wikipedia and tried to deleted it from the Bosnian Wikipedia. It is more than obvious here that this user approaches the editing of Wikipedia in accordance with his CHAUVINISTIC beliefs.

https://prnt.sc/10pni1e https://prnt.sc/10pi1x6 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.165.153.242 (talk) 02:00, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

SPECIAL ATTENTION should be paid to users under the nicknames Santasa99, Mikola22 and Tezwoo. There is a high probability that some (or all) of them are trying to apply practices from the notorious Croatian Wikipedia.

It is also necessary to consider the possibility of an organized group of Croatian right-wingers.