Talk:Chera dynasty/Archive 1

Archive 1

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Should'nt the succeeding States of Cheras be Zamorins, Kochi and Travancore( prominent among rather multitude of States that were formed after the fall of the chera empire in the 12th Century).Although the hoysala and Vijaynagar kings had conquered parts of the earlier "Chera areas", the chera kingdom broke up into many small Feudal kingdoms( "nattu rajyam")activevoid 20:50, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Merge Chera Kingdom with this??

Looks like the articles are very similar (not completely identical)... The contemporary Chola kingdom is described in Chola dynasty, while the Chola Kingdom is about the epic kingdom in Mahabharata. I think Chera Kingdom should redirect here Sadalmelik 17:28, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Dravidian civilizations

Wiki Raja 09:10, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Edits on December 12, 2007

Can somebody review on edits happened on December 12. I felt there is serious flaws on the edits.

Sentences like "Evidence for extensive foreign trade from ancient times is available throughout the Malabar coast, from the Roman, Greek and Arabic coins unearthed from Kollam, Kodungallur, Eyyal (near Trissur) in Northern Kerala"

are changed to

"Evidence for extensive foreign trade from ancient times is available throughout Kongu Nadu, Coimbatore, Palani, Karur, Salem and Dharmapuri"

I had placed a {{primarysources}} and {{confusing}} tags and that has been removed. Please confirm so that the actual revision can be restored. Thank You. P|^|C (talk) 09:10, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Removed POV Template

Removed POV template showing the kingdoms of Northern India as Empires, and kingdoms of Southern India as dynasties. No evidence as to whether all Northern kingdoms were Empires, while all Southern kingdoms were dynasties. Ashoka kingdom of Northern India is an Empire since it has controlled everything in South Asia outside its boundaries accept for Tamil Nadu, Kerala, and Sri Lanka. While the Cholas of Southern India is also an Empire stretching from South India to Sri Lanka, Maldives, Malaysia, Sumatra, and Java with its Navies. "Middle Kingdoms of India" template shows only bias towards Indo-Aryan kingdoms, and also making it seem that the Indian Union existed for thousands of years. Wiki Raja (talk) 06:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

NonSense

"'Purananuru' refers to Udiyan Cheral, who probably ruled in the first century CE. It is said that he fed the rival armies during the war of Mahabharata. Imayavaramban Neduncheralathan, another Sangam age king claimed to have conquered up to the Himalayas and to have inscribed his emblem in the face of the mountains. Senguttuvan was another famous Chera, whose contemporary Gajabahu II of Lanka according to Mahavamsa visited the Chera country.[6]"

This is just a nonsense cause if Udiyan Cheral was known to have ruled first century CE he can not possibly serve food in the Mahabaratha time which happened or was written to be before Christ. --Challiyan (talk) 12:38, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Cheras and Pandyas both belong to the Villavar-Meenavar of Dravidian stock.During Mahabharatha times,around 1500 BC a prehistoric Pandya Kingdomdid exist and the flag of the kingdom was having Bow and arrow emblem. The king was kalled Saranga Dwajan meaning Bow flagged king. Similarly like the Malayaman flag of latter age Malayamantribe the another king from Pandya kingdom was called Malaya Dwaja(Hill Flagged king).Fish(Meen) Hill(Malai) and Bow and Arrow (Vil) seem to the ancient emblems of Villavar(Chera)MeenavarPandyan Kings. [1].The Dravidian kingdoms are many thousand years old though History is available only from the Sangha age ie since 500 BC.Another Utiyan Cheral could have lived during the Mahabharata period.Since the ancient Pandya Kingdom encompassed all the areas from Udupi(Gokarna) in Karnataka,Kerala and Tamil Nadu according to Mahabharata the Chera king was perhaps under the tutelage of Pandya king that time.Mahabharatha is a precious document of Indian history. Vilmeenkodi (talk) 18:58, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Tamil Or Malayalam

According to Eminent linguists like the great poet Ulloor, Malayalam has characteristics of an older language than "Paanti Tamizh". Tamizh meant language, and modern Tamil was referred to as "Paanti Tamizh". Malayalam was referred to as "Malanaattu Tamizh". Tulu was referred to as "Tulunaattu Tamizh". Kannada was referred to as "Karunaattu Tamizh".

Hermann Gundert referred to the ancient South Indian language as "Dramilam". So, how is Chera Dynasty "Tamil Dynasty"? Is not it Old Malayalam Dynasty? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Appu2000 (talk • contribs) 02:44, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Down with Tamil extremism. 160.80.2.8 (talk) 15:50, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Sangam Cheras are Tamils and not "Malayali"

There is difference between the two dynasties. They are in no way connected. This problem arises because in TN we know the diff. between Sangam, Medievel and later Cholas and Pandyas. In Kerala's history, no such long living dynasty existed.

The Kerala Varmas were in no way inferior. Remember Keralolpatti which says that the Cheras were from "paradesam" esp. east of Kerala-Malayalam which could be accessed only thro the Nerumangalam pass. I dony say that K has no history. I rather say that Kerala always was diff from "Tamilakam"..it is Koduntamizh mandalam as specified. Please read thurston K.Ulpatti,K.Vakshakramam and K.Mahatmyam for more insight. PS I am not the one the above post is referring to Konguboy (talk) 16:21, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

All I am saying is that before you rewrite the entire article, discuss every section properly here. Axxn (talk) 17:18, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Sangam age Cheras were of course Tamils, Malayalam was not even born in the Sangam era. The connection between the Later and Sangam age Cheras is well authorized by historians. And finally, you cant just add Tamil racism here.

18:01, 26 April 2011 (UTC))

I can see that the user Konguboy has been blocked multiple times earlier also for adding similar POV and ethnic hatred (Eg. here). So I am reverting his edits. If he blanks the sections again, I am going to ANI. Chandrakantha.Mannadiar (talk) 18:17, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

>>you cant just add Tamil racism here Again, i plead you to read K. Ulpatti, K. Vakshakramam and K. Mahatmyam with Edgar Thurstond section on Namputhiris. Sangunni Menon is not an archeologist while Nagaswami is. Also remember that Malayala and Kerala desams r distinct.

@ C. Mannadiar. I can also do the same. See ur talk page for example. Be academic. This is not a cat and mouse game. What I said is from K. Ulpatti itself and not some Tamil racial text.

@ all. See this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CheraKonguboy (talk) 08:41, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Note: This user Konguboy is adding and deleting articles like Chera Nadu Muziris Cheraman Perumal (Nayanar) Cheraman Perumal Tyndis Vanchi Muthur Kulashekhara Alwar

also, with no mercy along with this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.117.210.248 (talk) 17:42, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

For people involved in this. User konguboy and other IPs are socks of the indef blocked sock master User:PONDHEEPANKAR. He uses a variety of socks and three ip ranges - 59.96.26.14/20, 117.206.96.0/20 and 59.92.112.0/20. Please ignore him and revert on sight. If you find any more accounts repeating this behaviour file an WP:SPI--Sodabottle (talk) 10:34, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Who were the Cheras, Cholas and the Pandyas? The word Cheran. Chera or Sera is derived from the Sanskrit word ‘Chaaraka’ -which means ‘one who moves around on errands as a messenger as directed by his master.’ The Hindi equivalent for Chaaraka is Cheraa or Chela which means a servant. Now a days the word Chela is used to mean disciple, a friend or a companion. The feminine gender for Chera or Chela is Cheri or Cheli which means a maidservant. In the mediaeval period the kings and rich people used to employ a number of maid servants in their palaces, who were called as Cherias or Cheliyas. The sons born to these maids were called the Cheria- putrans or Cheriya- thanayas (sons of the house-maids).

Maha Padma Nanda (400-329 B.C.)  was the first non-Kshatriya  king who ruled over the  Magadha Kingdom.  He was the son of a Sudra woman who worked as a   housemaid in the palace of King Mahanandi. He usurped the Kingdom by killing the queen and her children ( Maha Padma Nanda –Wikipedia). As the Brahmins refused to recognize him as the king, he embraced Jainism.  A number of housemaids belonging to different castes used to work in the palace of the king and his nine sons. Most of these maids were Bhotiya women who migrated to the plains of North India from Tibet, Nepal and Bhutan in search of livelihood.. They were all called  Bhotiyas  or Nagas,  a matriarchal  society,  who worshiped  a  Himalayan Goddess called  Bhattini, ( called as’ Pattini)  in Tamil). It looks like that Maha Padma Nanda, unlike the earlier Kshatriya kings, took good care of the children born to his house-maids and appointed them as commanders of the elephant, horse, Chariot and infantry battalions in his great army.

Maha Padma Nanda being a shrewd diplomat appears to have sent the sons of his house maids to capture the entire east and west coast of India a few years before or after the invasion of Alexander the Great to protect his kingdom from any invasions by the sea and also to monopolize the entire spice trade that originated from South India. These commanders of Magadha Army established prestigious kingdoms in the states of Orissa, Andhra Pradesh , Tamilnadu. Karnataka and Kerala. For example it can be seen that the first Chera king called himself as Imaya Varamban Nedum Cherlatan- which can be written as Himaya +Vara + Amba + Nedum + Cherala +tan ( the son of a house maid who is blessed by the great Mother of the Himalayas) . Nedum may the proper name of the king or his mother. ‘Tan’ is a short form for thanaya ( which means a son ) This word appears also in the name of the great Pandya King Nedum-Cheliyan (-Nedum who is the son of a house-maid). Thus it can be seen that the words Cherian and the Chelian ( Cholan) mean the same thing. The name of another chera king is Vanavaramban Perum Chottu Udiyan Cheralthan which can be analyzed as Vana+vara+Amban + Perum+ Chottu + Udayan + Cherl + than, which means blessed son of the Great Mother of the noble forest, very short, Udayan the son of a cheri,(the house maid). All these kings transferred their loyalty to the Maurya kings after the fall of the Nanda Dynasty. Emperor Ashoka called them affectionately as’ Kerala-putras’ or’ Cherala-putras’ and accepted rich tributes from them without invading their territories. ( Ref: Hathigumpha inscriptions of King Kharavela- c. 150 B.C.E.). The Chinese traveler Huen Tsang expressed his surprise to find that these kings looked just like the Chinese. To conclude it can be surmised that none of these kings namely, the Cheras .the, Pandyas and the Cholas were native South Indians. They were all deputies of the Magadha emperors. They belonged to a Himalayan tribe which descended from Bhutan .They were all very short, red in color, belonged to a matriarchal society, which always takes the name of their mother before their proper name, practiced Jainism and later shifted to Buddhism. They also worshipped Lord Shiva, the God of the Himalayas and a Goddess called Bhattini ( a Himalayan Goddess worshipped in Bhutan and Nepal) and who is richly described in the famous Tamil epic ‘Silappadikaram’. They were also very shrewd businessmen. They owned a great fleet for military as well as commercial purposes.The Hoyasalas ( Haya Shaalas) and the Satavahanas( commanders of of hundred chariots) and Sata Karanis ( commanders of hundred elephants) also belong to the same category. All these kings ruled independently but paid tributes annually to the the Magadha emperor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Banda.krishna (talk • contribs) 15:41, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

IP edit warring with multiple editors including Sodabottle

117.206.107.58 stop edit warring and come here now before you get blocked--Lerdthenerdwiki defender 09:00, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for reverting him .This is the indef blocked sockmaster and pov pusher PONDHEEPANKAR. per WP:DENY dont talk to him, just revert without pause. This ip range was blocked for a week and it expired yesterday. So he is back to his old activities. Just revert him and ignore him.--Sodabottle (talk) 09:02, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

The exports of CHERA

It is known that early tamils(Chera)were massive warriors and creators of massive weapons.Damascus steel were actually found by the early tamils both in india and lanka and they were massively exported to western civilisation such as greece.Swords,tridents are the examples of weapons that were exported from tamillakam.Please include this information in this CHERA articles.--Tan Meifen (talk) 12:45, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Malayalam is not spoken in Chera Dynasty

Malayalam is not spoken even in second Chera Dynasty.The kingdom of Cheras comprised the modern state of Kerala,along with the Malabar Coast.The people of Kerala which constitute the ancient territories of the Cheras spoke the same language and had extensive interaction with the rest of Tamil Country.The Sanskrition of western Tamil country(Kerala)starts with a power in 9th and 10th century.Due to Sanskrit influence on their Tamil,their individual identity changed and new language(Malayalam)began to evolve and at 15th century Malayalam took its shape as current Malayalam language spoken by current people of Kerala.Even before the 11th century,the language is still considered a dialect of Tamil same as other dialects of Tamil spoken in Sri Lanka,Karnataka and Tamil country.The Cheras used only Tamil even in Second Cheras era where the important Kings such as Kulasekhara Varman is a Tamil Vaishnava saint(Alvar).The Cheras even doesnt have a Sanskrit version of origin like Cholas and Pandyans.They had a pure Tamil origin.Please remove Malayalam which is incorrectly stated as a language used by the Cheras.--Tan Meifen (talk) 07:00, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Wrong Information on Article

It seems that an important stimulus to state formation in southern India came from the Maurya empire in the north.[2] It is quite possible that the Maurya army who reached the Mysore borders in their conquest southwards, encountered the megalith making tribes who lived in hill forts and controlled the surrounding countryside

I want to clearly mention that Chera dynasty is not the earliest or the first kingdon that was established in ancient South India.The Pandyans were the first of the Three Celestial(other being Chera and Chola)to be established even before 1000BCE followed by Chera formed before 500BCE and finally the Cholas which is established before 300BCE.The only North Indian kingdon that have recorded their knowledge on the existence of South Indian Kingdom was the Mauryas.(in terms of Magadha,established around 600BCE,but never mentioned anything about South Indian kingdom)The Mauryas itself is established in 321BCE(after Alexander's campaign of Sindh),so how can a kingdom\empire that does not exist during the formation of Southern kingdom can contribute for formation of these Southern Indian Kingdom?It is impossible to mention that the idea of state formation of Cheras came from the Mauryas.Another question is,if Chera kingdom is not formed why the Mauryas is not able to conquer the land of the Three Celestials.During the arrival of Maurya,even the Cholas state also had already formed and the inteligence and war abilities of Ilamcetcenni(early chola king) against Mauryas were recorded in ancient Tamil literature.As whole it is quite unpractical and it is impossible to conclude that the Chera/any southern kingdoms were formed because of the Mauryas.The sentences that delivered these ideas(above) in this article also is not in a mood that delivers fact but just assumption.Please remove these kind of sentences or unpractical assumptions.The Mauryas never had control on any parts of ancient Tamil land.

The southern kingdoms such as that of the Cheras would not have been developed without the rapid spread of iron technology.

I would like to know why the Dakshina Patha became so important while these Cheras just mentioned as tribe.I also like to stress that no tribe in this world or to a lesser extent India,can propel sea trade between Western civilisation.It is also noted that in maritime India the shores of Cheras(Malabar Coast)and the shores of Pandya and Cholas had the ultimate importance compared to other parts of India.The sentence above also tries to convey a wrong idea that the iron tecnology in south is from north.The Cheras have been importing weapons made of Damascus steel to western civilisation from a very early period,even before the Alexander came to Macedonia's throne.The iron and weapon technologied that were used by three celestials were their own and is indigenous to their region.--Vartharajulu Naidu (talk) 10:02, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Yavanas of the coast

Mention is made of the victory of King Nedum Cheralatan who defeated the Yavanas (Greeks? Romans?) of the coast and captured the Yavana chief and paraded him in the Chera capital. Nedum Cheralathan is said to have lived in the 4th century AD. The Peutinger tables have a "temple of Augustus" near Muzuris, and it may have been a local big temple which was mis-identified as a temple of Augustus.

source: A survey of Kerala history by Prof: A Sreedhara Menon, 1996 edition, published by S. Viswanathan Printers and publishers.

Keralolpathi - Panikkassery source

Can anyone tell me more about the Keralolpathi source authored by Panikkassery? I know what the primary material is but:

1. Who is the author? What are their credentials?
2. Is it just a translation?
3. Who are the publishers - I've never heard of them

I'm concerned that the thing may not count as a reliable source. Can we not find a modern academic history book that discusses the points that are supported by this source? - Sitush (talk) 06:18, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Religion

@Jossyys: Thanks for adding the citations. You are right in that the prevalence of these religions are of historic importance which is why they are already present in the article body. The infobox should however only list major religions as evidenced here. Similarly, we only list common/major languages under Languages. Minuscule percentages do not qualify as major.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 10:48, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

The book A Survey of Kerala History says that the people of ancient Kerala followed Dravidian practices which were not based on any particular religious philosophy [2]. It also says that all these three religions made steady progress within the framework of a free and open society and left their indelible impress on Kerala culture [3]. Those three religions must be Jainism, Buddhism and Hinduism. This book mentions the progress of Christianity and Judaism in ancient Kerala as well [4]. In this context, is it correct to mention only one religion in the infobox and overlook other mainstream religions that were part of that region during that period? Jossyys (talk) 00:50, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Good job on digging these up :) I'd suggest that the Society and religion section should first be expanded to include a summary of all the views presented by Menon; the infobox should be supported by the contents of this section. Out of curiosity, is Cultural Heritage of Kerala (1978) considered a second edition of A Survey of Kerala (1967)? There appear to be a number of significant changes between what are otherwise the same passages with the later book being a lot more circumspect in its pronouncements. I also see that this article relies overwhelmingly on these and other books by Sreedhara Menon.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 16:08, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion. In the early Chera period, the majority of the population followed Dravidian practices not based on any particular religious philosophy. There was no state religion. All mainstream religions came to the Chera land and got followers gradually. The percentage of people following any particular religion was not big. Jainism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism and Christianity were there in the first Chera period and all these religions had considerable influence on the society. So we can expand the Society and religion section and restore the earlier infobox that conveys this information. We do not have any statistics to come to a precise conclusion. The Chera kingdom was not too big to ignore any of these religions. Jossyys (talk) 03:26, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

In fact, Cultural Heritage of Kerala (1978) is not a second edition of A Survey of Kerala History (1967); according to the author, A Sreedhara Menon, it is a self-contained companion volume. Jossyys (talk) 03:26, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

That's a little odd considering the verbatim nature of many passages and chapter structures. Menon has also appeared to have significantly revised his views in his later book; but I'm leery of the quality of scholarship as well as the datedness of both of them in general. IMO, alternate, additional sources are required for this entire article. But I expect that they will be tough to find. Anyhow, on second thought, I don't think anything can be reliably done about this section as the entire article is a bit of a mess and in need of a complete overhaul. The Society and Religion section is currently restricted as it is placed under a Sangam Era section. So, anything from the time of the Later Cheras can't be included here. Besides, Menon deals with "Kerala" rather than just the "Cheras" which consequently requires an additional filter. With respect to the infobox, I would only include Dravidian folk religion and Hinduism; a case could be made for Buddhism and Jainism, but I don't think Christianity, Judaism, and Islam can be counted as major religions of the Chera kingdoms. Then again, I think the infobox is the least of this article's issues and IMO, it's of little import what goes in there until the rest of the article is fixed.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 14:05, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

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Coat of arms

@Chenmalli: "Copper coins with Chera symbols such as the bow and arrow" does not mean that the Cheras had either a coat of arms, or one with a bow or an arrow or a bow and an arrow on a yellow background and a weird flag. These are all fictitious depictions and do not belong in an encyclopaedia. You are welcome to cite Singh and add a note about Chera coinage. But the flag/coat of arms is WP:OR. Please also acquaint yourself with WP:BRD.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 12:34, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Unreliable source?

I have reverted this because I have doubts that the source is reliable. It seems to be an obscure publication by an obscure college. There is much pseudo-history etc surrounding ancient Indian dynasties and we really need to be careful. - Sitush (talk) 08:39, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

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Cheras as Malayalam or Tamil speakers

The repeated attempts to change the content about the language of the Cheras prompts me to write this section for future editors. Understandably, this is a controversial topic and one that could go against the grain of a lot of people's previously held views. However, upon the examination of the serious academic literature around it, the situation as it stands in 2016-17 is fairly clear.

Malayalam is now viewed to have evolved out the Proto-Dravidian language in the ancient era. The main reference for this is the path breaking article by A. Govindankutty who is a Professor of Linguistics and Indology at the University of Leiden. The article is 'From Proto-Tamil-Malayalam to West Coast Dialects' published in the famous 'Indo-Iranian Journal' which has been the location of many Aryan-Dravidian debates. The article is available online for free at this link - http://www.jstor.org/stable/24651352

This position has not been disputed and has been subsequently endorsed by the author of an authoritative compilation on Malayalam linguistics in 1997 - by R.E. Asher who was a Professor of Linguistics at the University of Edinburgh. And this support can be seen in the book 'Malayalam' published in 1997. It can be verified on 'page xxiv' and it is available online on Google books.

Bhadriraju Krishnamurty who is a prominent expert of Dravidian languages himself uses Asher and Kumari (1997) for his sections on Malayalam - as he is not an expert in Malayalam. Still, his Encyclopedia Britannica entry on Dravidian languages clearly shows the branching of Malayalam before Old Tamil (here Pre-Tamil). You can also read it online here - https://www.britannica.com/topic/Dravidian-languages

None of these references are lightweight academic contributions and no other evidence of a similar quality or expertise exists. It becomes therefore conclusive based on these that the language spoken in Kerala during the Early Cheras is Early Malayalam. This position does not dispute the fact that Malayalam and Tamil are closely related.

The innovation that is the Brahmi script was brought to Tamil Nadu from Northern India. And this innovation is apparently patronised by all kings of South India to write. It is understood that Tamil was not formed suddenly when the script arrived around 100 CE - and used to exist in spoken form much before that. The same case applies for Malayalam too. It was not formed magically around 800 CE when it finally develops its own unique script.

Hyper9 (talk) 08:44, 13 June 2017 (UTC)Hyper9.

@Hyper9: What you're indulging in is WP:SYNTHESIS. It is irrelevant to this article how old Malayalam is or which begat what. What is relevant here is what languages were used by the Cheras, early and/or later. Supporting citations provided should clearly address this matter. From what I can tell, Asher and Kumari do not cover this at all, certainly not in the cited page xxiv. (This article suffers from multiple POV issues besides this one. I'd also much rather see the languages and religions parameters left blank and let the body do the talking.)--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 11:16, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

@Cpt.a.haddock: Hi - Thanks for your comment. Upon careful reading of both the article and the comment above, you will find that I delineate between the language spoken in Kerala and that of the Cheras. The sources undoubtedly show that an early form of Malayalam is in existence in Kerala. And this along with Old Tamil has been put as the languages (in the box). The spoken language of the Cheras is unclear. It looks like the historian doesn't want to step into the linguist's territory and vice-versa. I have walked the tightrope and classified the Early Cheras' language as Proto-Tamil-Malayalam as the term is similarly inconclusive. True, there are some POVs here and there, but they are deployed to increase the explanatory power of various events and judiciously used with little hyperbole. As for the boxes, I think they are necessary summaries for casual readers. Rather than removing it altogether, I have been debating whether to split it into Early and Later Cheras. Any opinion? Btw, thanks for keeping a close eye on so many articles. Really appreciate your work rate. Sorry, dont know how to use the ping function on Wiki. Hyper9 (talk) 14:43, 14 June 2017 (UTC)Hyper9

@Hyper9: Hi. I don't see any delineation in the article and the sources show absolutely nothing about the languages of the Cheras. In fact, I see only one source dealing with this — Asher and Kumari — and it states nothing about the Cheras. Please feel free to quote a supporting passage from the page cited. The citation also does not cover the use of "Early Malayalam" or "West coast dialects" or "Old Tamil". Also, the lead and the infobox are meant to summarise the body which states nothing on the matter.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 15:59, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

@Cpt.a.haddock: Hi. The box is a reflection of the languages and religions practiced in the kingdom/state and not necessarily of the ruler. And this implication is clear to me, though Im not sure what the confusion is there for you. However, in light of this discussion which reflects the confusion a reader may have, the wordings around the languages has been changed and other usages uniformised.

@Hyper9: The provided source does not support the edit. Equating "prehistoric era" to the Cheras is not suitable and as noted above, is simply synthesis to support your own bias.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 06:36, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

@Cpt.a.haddock: The source answers a direct question - 'What are the languages spoken in these regions?'. The proof is provided by the references. Early Malayalam as acknowledged in Asher and Kumari. And Old Tamil as evidenced in Sangam literature written by poets and some Chera princes. How is that inaccurate? Not only this, you have now made several inaccurate edits. I will highlight them individually. Kindly provide the relevant references to support your edits. Also, please note that I removed the individual templates as there is a giant template on the top of the page already warning about the citations. Hence, the problem is already acknowledged until a point that the 'giant template' is removed (will await your response on this).Hyper9 (talk) 08:45, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

@Hyper9: I haven't replied until now as you were going to "highlight them individually". What became of this? As in the edit message, the citation needed banner does not cover unreliability. And the banner does not necessarily preclude the use of inline tags which point to which passages need citations or which sources are unreliable etc.

As for the issue at hand, it appears we have now come full circle to simply including Malayalam and Tamil in the infobox. To my memory, this was pretty much what it was previously except it is now Early Malayalam (not properly supported by citation) and Old Tamil (which does not have a citation at all). And if the Early Cheras spoke Early Malayalam, what did the Later Cheras speak?--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 06:41, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

@Cpt.a.haddock: - I did actually highlight them individually. You actually reverted several of my edits and re-introduced errors into the page and I have pointed them out in my edits. If the top banner does not cover so many citation issues, then I'm fine with this. I dont see the point in the banner then, frankly.

I will update the Early Malayalam/Old Tamil citations shortly. The question of differences in Early and Later Cheras has been pointed out earlier by me and I(or an interested editor) should take the appropriate steps with the relevant citations.

@Hyper9: I don't see any citations and you've also now introduced Menon as a source. This still remains synthesis or OR. I will be happy with citations for inscriptions or literary sources in Malayalam and the infobox simply reading Malayalam and Tamil as common languages. I doubt that the uncited Hebrew could be considered common. And frankly, unless a source directly states that Cherans spoke Malayalam or Old Tamil, it will be considered OR. Just stick to the source.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 12:35, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

@Cpt.a.haddock: - This was exactly why Asher and Kumari (1997) were used. They are the main secondary authoritative source. However, you insisted in these discussions that you want a source that directly shows 'Early Malayalam' which is why Govindankutty (1972), which is the Original Research paper, had to be introduced. Anyhow, I have reverted it to Asher and Kumari who in essence verify the same.

The languages as with religions are indicative of those spoken within the territories/kingdoms/States ruled by the Cheras and not necessarily indicative of their own practices. Hence, all such religions and languages are mentioned. It is written clearly that they ruled "over territories" of such speakers.Hyper9 (talk) 20:26, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Best practices of scholarship require that the cited sources directly support statements. What you are doing is synthesis as noted in my first message. Please find a source that states that the Cheras ruled over areas with Early Malayalam speakers or that sentence will have to go. The same applies for Old Tamil. This is besides the fact that your interpretation of the source is incorrect as noted on the Malayalam talk page. The section under Later Cheras does note the presence of Malayalam and Tamil literature but does not appear to have supporting citations. The Menon citation at the end only appears to support religion from what I can tell in the snippet view. If you're going to make a distinction between Early/Old/Middle Tamil/Malayalam for Early/Later Cheras, then please ensure that these bits contain supporting citations. If the Menon citation covers it, then it's fine. Thanks.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 20:52, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

@Cpt.a.haddock: The secondary sources ie Asher and Kumari (1997) "directly" address Govindankutty (1972) and support its conclusions - and there is no reason to believe that this is not so. They do not find it necessary to elaborate further. Where we dispute on the Malayalam page is not on the interpretation of sources but on who constitutes an 'authoritative' source or what is the nature of a 'consensus'. The Menon (2012) citation covers the paragraph. Hyper9 (talk) 22:52, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

When I emphasised directly, I was talking about the source directly stating that the Early Cheras governed areas with Early Malayalam speakers. This is why I've stated in my previous comment, Please find a source that states that the Cheras ruled over areas with Early Malayalam speakers or that sentence will have to go. The same applies for Old Tamil.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 07:09, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

@Cpt.a.haddock: - The references outline that the languages spoken in Kerala during this period - first this is done clearly in the primary source Govindankutty (1972) and secondly verified in Asher & Kumari (1997). There is another supporting reference provided which clearly does the same ie S.V.Shanmugam (1976) - Formation and Development of Malayalam, Indian Literature, Vol. 19, No. 3 (May-June 1976), pg 26. However, you appear to not address this either.

Not only this, there is an obvious mis-understanding on your part to classify Asher & Kumari (1997) as original research (OR). This is asolutely not the case and merely follows the best practices of WP:SCHOLARSHIP to quote secondary sources.

I would welcome your edits provided that you can back up your own argument with the relevant reference directly addressing Cheras or Kerala. More importantly, it should directly address Govindankutty (1972) in order to exhibit that it has expertise over the matter - and contradict his position. However, you do not provide any. There is no point in disputing reputable citations which clearly address the issue at hand. You need to arrive at an educated position with the relevant references before disputing the existing references. Else, it is merely a clear manifestation of your own bias and POV.

If you wish to discuss and obtain consensus then first provide a reference that quotes Govindankutty and then rejects it. Otherwise any references you provide do not show any indication that they have even read or have the ability to critique Govindankutty (1972) or even Asher & Kumari (1997). Once, you provide such a citation, we can proceed with this debate (Talk) and try and obtain consensus. Reverting current edits till any valid counter-references are provided by User - Cpt.a.haddock. Hyper9 (talk) 12:59, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Let me make this clear one last time. Quoting from WP:SYNTHESIS,

Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources. This would be improper editorial synthesis of published material to imply a new conclusion, which is original research performed by an editor here.[9] "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article. If a single source says "A" in one context, and "B" in another, without connecting them, and does not provide an argument of "therefore C", then "therefore C" cannot be used in any article.

In other words, taking one source that states that Malayalam was spoken in prehistoric times and another source that the Cheras existed at some point then and then coming up with the conclusion that the Early Cheras spoke Early Malayalam is synthesis. Your provided source must state explicitly that the Early Cheras ruled over territories that spoke Early Malayalam. This is besides the fact that there are two competing theories (being actively disputed over at Malayalam) as to the origin of Malayalam, the less widely held being that of its existence in prehistoric times. To use only one of these during your synthesis also violates WP:NPOV.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 15:42, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

@Cpt.a.haddock: - I repeat, clearly, once again that the references outline that these languages are clearly shown to be in use during the time periods and regions under discussion. This is, in fact, more clearly outlined in the supporting reference that has been added which clearly states this - S.V.Shanmugam (1976) - Formation and Development of Malayalam, Indian Literature, Vol. 19, No. 3 (May-June 1976), pg 26. Obviously, you have not referred to it as it clearly shows this conclusion in a tabular form. You do not address this at all in your edits.

There is no WP:SYNTHESIS involved as these references directly address the question of the language in use in the regions ruled by the Cheras - and are provided by expert Malayalam linguists unlike the your own POVs which are supported by references with ZERO publications on Malayalam-specific linguistics. And the challenge to provide any more authoritative reference for Malayalam linguistics (esp historical linguistics) is still open, to you or any interested editor. But you have not provided even a single such reference, so as to even begin a debate.

Indeed, disruptive editing would be a term applied to you as well and you would do well to reflect on your actions before accusing those of others. I have reviewed the literature on Cheras and some Malayalam linguistics and have provided the best references that I could locate for Wikipedia. I have significantly contributed to this article over time with high quality referencing. And unlike you, I have genuinely contributed to improving the WP article over a fairly long period of time. I am now strongly inclined to believe that you are resorting to disruptive editing on this page, more specifically only specific sections, to promote your own biases and POVs and this should attract the sanctions of a responsible editor/admin.Hyper9 (talk) 16:41, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

The references do not directly state that the Early Cheras ruled over regions where Malayalam was spoken. Both cited references only outline the two theories as to the origin of Malayalam. I've removed the contentious statements from the lead. If you can provide a reference that makes a direct statement as requested, then you are welcome to add it into the article. This is how Wikipedia works. Thanks.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 17:40, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

In addition, the infobox now states that Malayalam was a common language in the Chera kingdoms. Those who want to learn more can read the article. The separation of Early Cheras and Later Cheras in the infobox is, IMHO, unnecessary and leads to unnecessary drama between the Tamil and Malayalam language warriors here.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 17:45, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

@Cpt.a.haddock: OK. Once again I have to break this down for you. That the Cheras ruled over large parts of Kerala and some regions of Tamil Nadu is clear and undisputed. If you are disputing this, then I would like to point out that you would be completely in error. Not only that it once again exhibits the clear extent of your biases and POVs.

The next question is to provide the languages that are in use in these regions. And this detail is provided in the sources outlined who are providing expertise in historical linguistics. This is directly addressed in Govindankutty (1972). Here, Govindankutty clearly states that the linguistic branch is that of the geographic area of the Western coast of South India. In fact, he explicitly calls it 'West coast' dialects and that is the title of the paper! And secondary verification of this paper is provided by Asher & Kumari (1997) and Shanmugam (1976).

You have indeed gone ahead and deleted the details in the Infobox. If your aim was this, it only shows clealy that you were NOT interested in obtaining consensus. Why did you even post comments here then? Not only this, you have gone ahead and broken YOUR OWN request to not edit the page. All of these clearly indicate biases/POV and lack of interest in obtaining consensus. All information needs to be supported with accurate referencing and sources rather than being not addressed at all. Hyper9 (talk) 00:10, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Thread created on NORN.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 07:25, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

talk - Great, Thanks. Will respond if required.Hyper9 (talk) 11:29, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

No takers. Now listed here.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 12:22, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Cpt.a.haddock - I have been pointing out that S.V. Shanmugam (1976:26) should be able to directly address all of your concerns which are not addressed by Asher & Kumari (1997). I have now retained it as the sole reference here. If you still have any queries, do revert back to me.Hyper9 (talk) 09:27, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Please directly address my concerns by quoting a statement or paragraph by Shanmugam where he states that the Early Cheras ruled over regions with Early Malayalam and Old Tamil speakers or words directly to that effect. And frankly, considering that there is a dispute about the antiquity of Malayalam, we will need multiple reliable sources to support such a claim rather than one obscure paper from 1976. Until you do that, such a statement cannot be used in Wikipedia. And Wikipedia is not interested in your summary or interpretation of multiple pages of a source for history articles. Thanks.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 10:39, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

In this instance, there is a digital version of the reference at hand and I can provide you with a screenshot of the relevant page in question. As mentioned, this is a secondary, summarising, academic source. As for the content, neither am I interested in other people's un-referenced, un-backed claims, POVs, biases and notions which are clearly unaware of what the experts say. Your declaration of what constitutes an "obscure" paper only shows your lack of knowledge and related biases and POVs. Indeed, as I have mentioned earlier, there is very little that I have added on my own - what has been added to WP is the position found amongst the foremost experts on the subject under discussion. I dont think that, from what I have seen, you should have any authority to speak on behalf of WP as you do in the previous para.

Hyper9 (talk) 07:59, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

The relevant page in question does not mention the Cheras anywhere. And you are well aware that there are two competing theories as to the origin of Malayalam and one of them posits an origin later than the 5th century mentioned. As long as these two issues are not addressed satisfactorily and with multiple reliable sources confirming the statement, your piecing together of sources to arrive at this conclusion will be considered synthesis in Wikipedia. Repeatedly reverting multiple editors without gaining consensus is not going to help. There's an open DRN on this awaiting a moderator. Use it or escalate the dispute resolution even further.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 16:56, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

I think the above reference is as clear cut as it gets as far this issue is concerned. Moreover, it is by an established authority in the field, it is a secondary resource and a summarising paper fulfilling all criteria of WP:SCHOLARSHIP. You are now being disruptive on insisting on a verbatim requirement that will satisfy you which is totally unnecessary. Not only this, at the end of the DRN case on the Malayalam page, your counter-view was left with NO supporting citations. It is merely a general perception, and does not hold any substance as a reference.Hyper9 (talk) 18:27, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

I have specifically modified the vague term "territories" and changed it to the present day names so that it is clearer for both the readers and you. If you still believe that there is a need to dispute this, then please go ahead with a dispute resolution method that does not involve moderated discussions and I will participate in such a method. Hyper9 (talk) 19:37, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

CONCLUSION (for reference)

I have waited for over a week now, and no further responses have been forthcoming from other editors. I am closing this discussion thread, that I started, and would not participate in this any further (a temporary ban has been added to my WP ID). Any further discussions can be started by interested parties as a fresh section.

There are two key references for those who are interested in the question of what are the languages spoken in the State of Kerala (which was the largest part of the Chera empire) around 500 CE. These are Govindankutty (1972) and a follow-up secondary paper, Shanmugam (1976). There might be more but I have managed to locate these and should serve as an ideal starting point. Some wider consensus can be observed in Asher and Kumari's (1997) authoritative linguistic guide to Malayalam. These should suffice as a starting point for interested users. Bests. Hyper9 (talk) 21:14, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

References

Questions around the Shanmugam paper

• I think there is some synthesis going on here. The Shamugum paper says that there may have been a proto-Malayalam at the time of the Sangam literature. It says that the Cheras ruled over a part of modern day Kerala. And it also says that some parts of the Sangam literature were either about or influenced by the Cheras. However, there are a couple of points to be noted here. First, the proto-Malayalam part is speculative even in the paper. I suspect a second source will be required because it, apparently, pre-dates the origin of Malayalam. Second, and this is the synthesis part, the writer says nothing about whether proto-Malayalam was spoken in the Chera ruled areas. Finally, of course, the paper is about linguistics and the Cheras get only scant and peripheral mention in the paper. I suspect a historical source would be a better bet here. Hyper9, it looks like the consensus is against your version. The onus is on you to seek dispute resolution at this point. --regentspark (comment) 22:14, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

regentspark - I dont know what kind of consensus you're talking about when you do not even present a supporting citation for your views. The Shanmugam (whose name you cant even spell) paper examines the evidence, debates it, specifically addresses Govindankutty (1972), agrees with him, extends the argument by providing more examples and summarises this on Page 10. He then summarises his conclusions of the entire paper clearly on page 26 (a kind of Table 101 for dummies), a screenshot of which I have attached above. If you or anyone wants to dispute it, at least begin with a counter-reference of similar authority and directly addressing the literature in question. Then we can even begin to think of a debate. Reverting unsupported edits. Hyper9 (talk) 10:37, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Hyper9, you're now being disruptive. Three editors have weighed against your edits and that's where the consensus being against you is coming from. The Shanmugam paper is not about Cheras, the table for dummies does not even mention Cheras and, as I've clearly stated above, you're indulging in synthesis by associating proto-Malayalam with the Cheras. Page 10 does not mention Cheras either but discusses the possible existence of a proto-malayalam (assumed that a form of speech, which can be designated as proto-Malayalam is by no means a definitive statement and tying this to the Cheras is synthesis). Finally, what sort of counter-reference are you seeking? One can hardly provide a source for something that does not exist. You're taking a couple of statements in a single paper, that makes only passing reference to the Cheras, and constructing your own views of what was spoken in the Chera dynasty and that's not acceptable. I suggest you self-revert before you start going down the blocking path. --regentspark (comment) 11:46, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

And it's not a good idea to criticise editors for spelling errors that appear to be typos, proofread your last reply to me below. Doug Weller talk 14:02, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Doug Weller - My apologies to anyone if it was offensive in any way. Hyper9 (talk) 15:20, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

regentspark - I really dont have any problem with discussing on the Talk page here and sorting it out. But despite knowing that there is a detailed discussion ongoing here, you went ahead and edited the article. Is that not disruptive editing by you or the other editors? Despite being experienced editors, you are not resorting to the Talk page to support your counter-arguments. I have provided the original statements for this WP page with the appropriate references however, you want to revert it even without any supporting source to back yourself up. Is that not disruptive editing by you or the other editors? As you or anyone can observe, I have debated the issue in a civil manner and on the Talk page for a fairly long time now. If you really have a counter-view, please provide it here, support it with citations and once I verify and agree, you are most welcome to change what I have written.

The languages used in Kerala are clearly outlined in Shanmugam (1976) and that is all that is provided in the WP article. The wording of the sentence is clear. If you want to debate this, your supporting source should address the historicity of Malayalam in Kerala, and state that Govindankutty (1972) and Shanmugam (1976) are wrong? Its been 40 years now since they were published, Im sure you can find a paper if one exists. Hyper9 (talk) 15:18, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Hyper9, since you're the one adding proto-Malayalam to the article, you need to get consensus. That's the way wikipedia works. And, you still haven't provided a source that links proto-Malayalam to the Chera dynasty. Merely pointing to one research paper that posits that there might have been proto-Malayalam that was contemporaneous with the Chera Dynasty is insufficient. Please either provide an explicit source or self-revert. --regentspark (comment) 15:38, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

regentspark - I am indeed adding content. But it is not just any content! It is appropriately sourced and well referenced content which anyone can verify. As mentioned, I dont have any issues in building a consensus if you have a clear cut different position that is supported by your own references. The Shanmugam source clearly outlines that early versions of Malayalam and Tamil are being used in Kerala - and this is what is written in the WP as well. If you think that Shanmugam is a single source, then you need to go through the Talk sections in more detail or you can also check the DRN case on the Malayalam page, as it is a "secondary", "summarising" paper. I can add some more sources if required. Hyper9 (talk) 22:36, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

CONCLUSION (for reference)

I have waited for almost a week now, and no further responses have been forthcoming from this editor/s. I am closing this discussion thread as well, and would not participate in this any further (a temporary ban has also been added to my WP ID at the moment). Any further discussions can be started by interested parties in a fresh section.

As clearly stated in my final preceding comment, there is no Synthesis involved. In fact, it is clearly anything but that. The most authoritative sources have been provided for this page - and therefore it is clearly not my own content. It is the expert view on the topic. I have pointed this out and to other editors that if you wish to dispute it, then you are directly disputing the authority whose reference is given there - not me. If you wish to dispute it, similar counter references need to be provided, else it is just baseless arguments. Best. Hyper9 (talk) 21:23, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

The "Jack Turner" edits

@Hyper9: From what I can tell, you added the entire paragraph in question while citing the Hindu article which refers to "anecdotes" from Turner's book. The Hindu article mentions nothing about the Indus Valley, or 1500 BCE North Africa. You've subsequently added the Turner reference sans page numbers indicating that you haven't read/have access to the book. Furthermore, spice trade with Africa is already covered in the next paragraph with Kulke & Rothermund as a source. Please fix posthaste. Also, an infrared doctorate from a small English school does not imply robustness for history articles. Thanks.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 07:07, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

@Cpt.a.haddock: - There are a couple of issues with your comments on this. The finding of pepper is not an opinion of an expert, it is a fact and a piece of reported news that is available widely. It may be supported by the second citation that you mention (I need to verify it) - but unsurprisingly, you do not proceed to fix it. The reference for IVC has been re-arranged and is the same ie Menon (2012). The wording is clearly written as "around" 1500 as indicated by the dates involved. And Egypt is located in North Africa - unless Ancient Egypt was located somewhere else like you imagine it to be.

The author can be verified as a PhD in IR from the UoOxford - and can be reliably stated to have a knowledge of trade. If you think that this constitutes an 'infra-red' doctorate from a 'small' English school, then Im afraid it merely once again reflects the biases and POV's that you hold. I dont think that such a comment even merits further discussion.Hyper9 (talk) 07:50, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

@Hyper9: So, now that you've added a page number, does Turner actually say "around 1500 BCE"? Does he say that traders from North Africa/Egypt came to the Malabar coast or vice versa? Please provide a quote of the relevant section. Thanks.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 12:40, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

@Cpt.a.haddock: - I'm not sure what your point is. Kindly elaborate - and if you have a counter-view, please provide the supporting reference. Thanks. Hyper9 (talk) 07:29, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

@Hyper9: A quote of the relevant passage from Turner's book is requested. Thank you.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 08:12, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

@Cpt.a.haddock: - Sorry, I do not have a digital version of the reference. More importantly, as implied by an academic reference, you are most welcome to check it yourself if you're interested. Hyper9 (talk) 11:07, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Please acquaint yourself with WP:HISTRS; newspaper sources are, in most cases, avoided in history articles. And I'll be happy with an accurately typed excerpt from the book which supports the statement you've added to the article.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 18:32, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

@Cpt.a.haddock: - The newspaper article reports a talk by the source of the citation and is provided as a "supplement" to a scholarly source. In addition, I will shortly add more references. Hyper9 (talk) 21:17, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

I've realised this is a pointless discussion. The article is about the Chera dynasty, not the history of the area, and events before the dynasty existed aren't relevant to the actual dynasty, so I've removed the paragraph. Doug Weller talk 10:23, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

This is fine by me. FWIW, the point about trade is amply covered in the next paragraph which used to be the first paragraph of the section prior to Hyper9's edits. It also has a proper source attached to it.---Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 10:47, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Doug Weller, Cpt.a.haddock - There are two reasons why such information has been added. ONE, the Chera dynasty is not provided with a commencement date and its founding is unknown, as cited by expert historians. Unless you can provide me with the commencement date and supporting reference, I don't think that you (or anyone) can authoritatively claim that the dates are altogether irrelevant. TWO, the trade is definitely linked to the geographic area in question and is not explicitly linked to the Cheras in its current form. But it is well known and can be verified in multiple sources of academic literature. Neither is the subsequent trade directly linked to them - in which case one will have to extend your logic to prove that all trade has to be carried out by the ruling kings - here, there and everywhere. Hyper9 (talk) 21:56, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Cpt.a.haddock - The subsequent para addresses trade around the commencement of the Common Era and is quite poorly referenced. Even though I am probably the largest active contributor to this WP page, I have not had the time to address the issues raised. But with so many flags raised, what is this 'proper source' that you refer to in this para? Hyper9 (talk) 22:02, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

We'd need multiple reliable sources linking it to the dynasty, and we clearly don't and won't have them as no one seems to date it as that old. That is simply policy. And trade is not always direct, in fact very often not, nor is it always carried out by the producer, so your point about kings is irrelevant. Doug Weller talk 05:02, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Doug Weller - I completely understand your point. However, you should also see that no one dismisses the case either in the way you have decided to. I repeat that the expert literature does not date the origins of the dynasty. And this para (which is well referenced) sets up the context of the next para about trade in the early Common Era (which I would have properly referenced shortly). It is not concluded anywhere in the deleted para that the trade is by the Cheras themselves nor whether it is direct or indirect, so I'm not sure what your point is in relation to that.

Doug Weller - At this point, since you are an admin, I would just like to point out that the only reason I continue to edit and back up my positions is because I have actually surveyed the literature on the (few) topics that I am involved in - unlike the speculative disputes that are being raised. I am fully willing to defend my position as it is an educated one, with the support of the best references in the subject that I could locate. I am yet to come across more authoritative references provided by anyone on WP, though they are always welcome (which I have repeatedly stated). The DRN case that I was involved in will show you how the other editor's references dropped out one by one. The points being raised are interesting and usually based on some pre-conceived notions or logic, but clearly not backed up by any relevant references.Hyper9 (talk) 08:21, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

@Hyper9: That's all excellent and would help in an academic paper. But I repeat, you would need sources dating the dynasty to Ramesses II's date. The time span between him and the earliest evidence for the dynasty is not insignicant. I am not dismissing anything, I'm telling you that WP:VERIFY is basic policy and you have to follow it. If you want to go to WP:RSN and say you wish to use certain sources to back certain statements that's your privilege. Can I also remind you that rarely is one source sufficient. My point about direct etc was in relationship to your statement about trade being carried out by the ruling kings, I was saying that was irrelevant. Doug Weller talk 18:07, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Doug Weller - As I mentioned in my previous reply. No one is dating the dynasty here, neither you nor I - perhaps you can re-read what you deleted. The para (that you deleted) is added to provide context to the subsequent para on trade - in fact, the deleted para is merely a well-referenced elaboration of the 1st line of the 2nd para. Otherwise, the trade of the early Common Era appears magically out of nowhere (instances of single trades upto 5 million denarii). Also, the deleted para is well referenced. And if needed, it can be provided with several further sources - all you need to do is just ask.

Your jibes are unnecessary and frankly beneath your own position as a WP admin (which you informed me personally). I repeat, there is no OR involved anywhere, nor do I claim to have the expertise for that level. Even after the elementary round of literature that has been examined, it is still obviously better informed and better referenced (better citations/references are always welcome) and has significantly improved the WP page. In fact, the next para (which I have not been given time to improve) is a good example of what the page was like originally and how much it has improved.

Your initial statement mentioning "direct", "indirect" trades is what elicited my response and it looks like we are in agreement on that. Hyper9 (talk) 10:32, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

I made no jibes. I don't see evidence of pepper in one mummy as proving there was actual trade. What archaeological sources or ancient texts are evidence for an actual pepper trade, then or later? When is the next evidence of pepper in Europe or Africa? Doug Weller talk 11:24, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Doug Weller - Thanks for the clarification. The mummy example with black pepper is merely the most spectacular and well-known of the finds. But the trade is attested to in multiple sources. For more archaeological evidence and details, you can also refer to this and related citations. Page 43 might be the one you're looking for if you're not genuinely interested. Parker, G. (2002) - Ex Oriente Luxuria: Indian Commodities and Roman Experience, Journal of the Economic and Social History of the Orient, Vol. 45, No. 1 (2002), pp. 40-95. Hyper9 (talk) 11:54, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

See Indo-Roman trade relations. Does your source contradict this? Doug Weller talk 12:07, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Doug Weller - Is there any specific para or segment that you are referring to on this page? Generally, the Parker (2002) source is addressing from the 2nd millenium BCE, which is beyond the scope of that page. I have cross checked the source in the 3rd para of the lede (reference no. 3) and I would classify it as suspicious, requiring further verification. Overall, the page has seems to have dubious references and wording, especially when referring to regions in India. Hyper9 (talk) 12:32, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

"Ex Oriente Luxuria: Indian Commodities and Roman Experience" doesn't suggest a pepper trade as early as you seem to want to suggest. It doesn't even mention the mummy. It does discuss trade with Kerala of course. Doug Weller talk 17:06, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Doug Weller - The earliest dates and supporting references for the pepper trade are given on p43. Parker (2002) was given to show other instances and mentions of this trade in history. If you want to cross verify Ramses II, you can cross check with the WP page on Black pepper as well - and cross check the references provided in the History section there - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_pepper#History. Hyper9 (talk) 18:20, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

I know about Ramesses, no need to verify. But Grant Parker doesn't given any sources for his shipwreck claims. He does say "and used in the later 4th/early 3rd centuries) in Greece. In any case, those shipwrecks were long before the Chera dynasty and given the lack of textual etc evidence, there's nothing to show continuing trade. Bottom line though this would belong in some articles but it's not relevant to the Chera dynasy, only their trade is relevant. Doug Weller talk 18:30, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Doug Weller - Well, if you're satisifed with evidence of ancient trade and it is only a continutation that you're concerned with, then its a different matter altogether. Parker's article lists the related references on ancient trade on the top of the page before stating that he isnt going into them as his focus is on the Roman one. Either ways, the trade is shown to be pre-existing and provides the context to the trade in the early Common Era. As I said, the deleted para is an elaboration of the first line of the 2nd para. And provides a context for the massive amount of Roman trade and related sources. As I said earlier, no claims are being made in it but just highlighting that it was a region that was within existing trade routes and does not appear miraculously.Hyper9 (talk) 18:48, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

I've gotten side-tracked. I repeat, any disputed edit requires appropriate sourcing. That's basic policy. I note that this isn't mentioned in Kerala. You might want to start there but you need to be more specific Then you have been. Doug Weller talk 14:00, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Doug Weller - Well, that's what I did. I provided and supported the para with the appropriate sources and references - as requested by other editors. The deleted para explicitly refers to trade in Kerala which is the major region ruled by the Chera dynasty. Is there anything specific that you have a problem with in that para, because I dont have a problem with modifying it accordingly? As for other articles, I can take a look at them another time. Hyper9 (talk) 15:05, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

My main issue is still that it isn't about the dynasty. It also suggests a pepper trade existing from the 13th century BCE forward without evidence, so it wouldn't even belong in Kerala. Find sources discussing the dynasty and trade. Doug Weller talk 14:00, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

The para that is deleted by you does not mention the dynasty at all so I dont know why you are reading that into it. It refers to the predominant region being discussed ie Kerala, and proceeds to provide well referenced content. As I said, it is a contextual para for the gamut of subsequent trade in the early CE. The version that you deleted in fact had a reference, which explicitly linked trade from Kerala to MENA in the 13th century BCE. Hyper9 (talk) 21:32, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

No it did not link trade, it said "Trade contacts with the Middle East and North Africa were definitely in place around 1300 BCE as black pepper (which was indigenous to Kerala) was available in Ancient Egypt around that time". Finding pepper in one mummy doesn't mean that there were trade contacts. It means that somehow, someone brought enough pepper to Egypt to use for the mummy. Calling that "trade contacts" is just speculation without, well, evidence of actual trade. It's not even a claim that there was trade between that time and around the 4th century BCE when there is again some evidence of pepper. What you need is a source saying the Chera dynasty continued, maybe built upon, existing trade contacts. And again, there's no evidence in the appropriate section of Black pepper for trade during this period. We simply don't know how the pepper got to Egypt, and trade is only one possibility. Doug Weller talk 11:49, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Doug Weller - My apologies this time for a delayed response, as I was traveling with limited internet access. I will once again try to make it clearer. I am making two key points.

ONE, this (deleted para) is a contextual para. It does not mention the Cheras at all and does not link this trade to them - in line with the cited literature. It only gives some evidence of trade from the region and adds context to subsequent trade. In fact you can clearly read in the next para - that the Cheras are mentioned here for the first time and it is clearly stated that the trade gets more widely known now, ie under the Early Cheras.

TWO, the wording is 'trade-contacts', not direct trade. In whatever way the black pepper may have reached, it implies some contacts. If you wish, it can be changed to just 'contacts'. And it does not require that the Cheras themselves be linked to that trade - as that is not claimed anywhere. It is only linked to that region. And yes, I will address some of the shortcomings of other pages in due time. Hyper9 (talk) 23:22, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

Doug Weller - A partial WP ID ban has been imposed and I would not be able to contribute to this page at the moment. I would also be withdrawing from the Talk pages until this is sorted. However, I would still like you to consider the deleted para, if possible re-read it closely, and I am sure that you would see that the wording is general without drawing any conclusions. I am also sure that you would have discovered by now that the content on ancient trade is not entirely made up and there are bits and pieces found in highly authoritative sources. It would be highly appreciated if you take a close look at it and consider the points made in my preceding statement. Thanks. Hyper9 (talk) 21:30, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Chronology/genealogy

(This is a fork of the conversation between me and Hareeshh on my talk page.) Hareeshh: As discussed, please establish that MGS Narayanan's genealogy and chronology is now preferred by reliable secondary sources over that of Kunjan Pillai etc. Please do this before rewriting articles on the Chera kings and overwriting existing sourced information. The same also applies to terminology such as Cheras of Karuvur, etc. We need consistency and consensus here. Thanks.—Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 11:18, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Please see the following books

• R. Gurukkal and M R R Varier "Cultural History of Kerala" (2000)
• K. Veluthat "The Political Structure of Early Medieval South India" (1993)

or see the following links

• [5] (written by K. Veluthat for Frontline)
• K. Veluthat [6] Université Paris-Diderot - UFR de Linguistique

Hareeshh (talk) 13:25, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

@Hareeshh: You might want to update this article (Chera dynasty#Later Chera or Kulasekhara rulers) first. Also, it's a good idea to mention opinions of multiple hisotrians, where there is a considerable difference between the dates (e.g. "According to XYZ, the king ruled from 1000-1020, but PQR dates his reign to 900-940.") utcursch | talk 00:42, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, Hareeshh. Can you please quote any lists of rulers and their dates here so we can compare them? Is Menon even correctly quoting MGS in this article? Please consider doing the same for the names of the various Chera houses. I'm afraid I only have access to Menon and KANS' History of South India which I don't think is going to be of much help here.—Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 08:51, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

@Utcursch: @Cpt.a.haddock: I'll try to update the section (comparing all three views on chronolgy). While doing so I think ....I will be needing some protection from some hostile editors...Can anybody correct the grammar mistakes in the article? Seems horrible! Hareeshh (talk) 14:36, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

@Hareeshh: I agree the article is in pretty bad shape. I have long thought of re-writing it (possibly splitting Later Cheras as a separate article), but lack of time has permitted me from working on it. I'd encourage you to make bold edits -- feel free to remove any content that is unsourced, poorly-sourced or based on outdated sources. As long as you cite reliable sources, I don't think anyone will be hostile. utcursch | talk 14:42, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

@Utcursch: @Cpt.a.haddock: Splitting the article into two, or possibly into three, is a good idea! I will need everybody's help in this "mission impossible"!Hareeshh (talk) 15:16, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

I have no problem in mentioning all chronological views by proposed by different historians!

What transliteration should I use ? Different editors are using different transliterations!! (remember that u r gonna get a lot of Tamil - Malayalam - Sanksrit - Prakrit - Pali words! Hareeshh (talk) 15:30, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

@Hareeshh: Personally, I prefer to use the transliterations that are most intuitive to the global English speakers (e.g. "Chola" instead of "Coḷa"). You can use any transliteration scheme that is supported by the sources. Alternative transliterations can be mentioned in the article. For example, the article Chanakya mentions the IAST spelling Cāṇakya in the lead. utcursch | talk 20:01, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Different views

Chera Perumals of Makotai

Elamkulam School	M. G. S.
Kulasekhara Varma (800–820) Rajasekhara (820–844) Sthanu Ravi (844–885) Rama Varma (885–917) Kodai Ravi (917–944) Indu Kodai (944–962) Bhaskara Ravi I (962–1019) Bhaskara Ravi II (1019–1021) Vira Kerala (1021–1028) Rajasimha (1028–1043) Bhaskara Ravi III (1043–1082) Ravi Rama Varma (1082–1090) Rama Varma Kulashekhara (1089–1102)	Rama Rajasekhara (800–844) Sthanu Ravi Kulasekhara (844–883) Kodai Ravi Vijayaraga (883–913) Kodai Kodai Kerala Kesari (913–943) Indu Kodai (943–962) Bhaskara Ravi (962–1021) Ravi Kodai Rajasimha (1021–1036) Raja Raja (1036–1089) Ravi Rama Rajaditya (1036–1089) Aditya Kota Ranaditya (1036–1089) Rama Kulasekhara (1089–1124 CE)

Hareeshh (talk) 12:04, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Source? So MGS doesn't use "Manukuladilya"? Veluthat uses it here (and contradicts his own date within a span of 28 pages) back in 1978. And MGS uses Aditya Kota rather than Kodai like in his other transliterations? Thanks.—Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 12:52, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

I've reverted your additions to the lead where you mention the Cheras of Cranganore and the Kongu Cheras. Above you've mentioned the Chera Perumals of Makotai and elsewhere you've named the early Cheras, the Cheras of Karuvur. Then there are the existing terms such as the Early and Later Cheras, the Kulasekharas of Mahodayapuram, and so on. Let's address these here and in the article's body first before revising the lead. Thank you.—Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 14:57, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

I suggest creating Chera dynasty/draft where a consensus can be reached on the prpoosed changes. utcursch | talk 01:55, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

This is a great idea. Hareeshh?—Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 07:21, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

@Cpt.a.haddock:

• "Manukuladitya" can be identified with Bhaskara Ravi (962–1021 CE). I just wanted to keep it simple! Narayanan does mention this. 962 - 1021 is the correct duration.
• Yeah. Narayanan used "Kota" (Malayalam) instead of "Kodai" (Tamil - Early Malayalam). Both of these are variations of the Sanskrit name "Goda". No problem in using "Kota" instead of "Kodai". Original inscriptions use rude Tamil-Early Malayalam. All the Sanskrit names are written in native tounge (like the use of "Dhamma" in Asoka inscriptions in place of "Dharma"!)
• PLEASE NOTE
  • Ravi Kota Rajasimha (c. 1021 to c. 1036 CE). These are approximate years. Just add circa
  • Raja Raja, Ravi Rama Rajaditya, Aditya Kota Ranaditya (c. 1036 to 1089 CE). This is also an approximation. Add circa
  • Rule of Rama Kulasekhara can be tentativly extended from 1122 to 1124 CE.

• ABOUT THE SPECIFIC NAMES OF THE RULING CLANS
  • I think we need to reach some kind of a consensus! I prefer to follow of R. Thapar.

Hareeshh (talk) 13:59, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

@Hareeshh: Thank you. So does this mean that both the columns of this table are from MGS Narayanan? Please be precise and consistent with the spellings as these will very likely affect article titles later on. There are similar inconsistencies with the names in the first column. Do you have access to the other authors you've recommended? What do they say?

I have gone ahead and created the draft article with your table in it. Let's confine our changes to that page for the time being. You can use the {{circa}} template for the approximate dates that you've mentioned. And isn't the table already using 1124 for Rama Kulasekhara?

Clan names: What does Thapar say about this? And the other authors? IMO, as with the genealogy, we need to survey all of them before proceeding. Menon uses Kulasekharas of Mahodayapuram as well as the Kulasekhara Empire and notes that they are also known as the Second Chera Empire. You can see here that this naming business has been a mess for a long time and this article has seen merges of at least 3 different articles in its history. If, as Utcursch suggests, we are to split this article in twain, we will want to get these names right. Thanks!—Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 20:23, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

P.S. In Karashima (2014), the name and date for Sthanu Ravi are mentioned. While he cites MGS, he appears to go out of his way to state that this is "according to MGS" or that "MGS identifies Kulasekhara Alvar with …" rather than making definitive statements on MGS' proposed name and date as accepted fact. However, it is notable that MGS is mentioned and preferred and I don't believe I've seen Kunjan Pillai's name in the book.—Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 20:32, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

• @Hareeshh:

• Both the columns of the table are not from MGS Narayanan. The left coloumn is Pillai-Menon, and the right one is Narayanan. I would also like to stick with one standard transliteration on the chief's names, clan/tribe names, and place names etc.

• For Rama Kulasekhara, we should be using something like (1089 - c. 1122/24 CE)

• I think I once mentioned about Thapar in your talk page! Thapar calls them "Cheras/Perumals in Kerala" at one place and "the Makotai kingdom in the Periyar Valley" in another place...i think we should use any of these.

If there are this much problem, which I am sure there is, then we should create some of kind of simple article. For heaven's sake do not use controversial/debatable points and dates in the article... An small article with just an introductory paragraph will do a lot better! Dont mention this clumsy dates at all...

Hareeshh (talk) 02:54, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Please add those sources to the draft. I forgot about the talk page mention of Thapar, sorry. However, I really don't want to resort to cherry-picking these names. For example, "Makotai kingdom" pales in popularity when compared to "Kulasekharas of Mahodayapuram" on Google Books. Then there are all the other candidates. Karashima calls them the "Cheraman Perumal dynasty of Mahodayapuram". What terms do MGS and other authors use? Please also see my question above: Do you have access to the other authors you've recommended? What do they say? Thanks.—Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 07:45, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

@Cpt.a.haddock:

* The title "Kulasekharas of Mahodayapuram" is no longer used by researchers in any university! I know it is popular in the internet and newspaper reports!!

* Given the stature of Thapar in Indian historiography, I do think that we need to follow her.

* Most authors stick to table I have given. Why on Earth we need to worry about these transliterations while we have colossal factual mistakes all over the article?

** Please consider creating small articles, just one or two paragraphs...

Hareeshh (talk) 14:39, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

@Hareeshh: We seem to be backtracking here. When you say things like, Most authors stick to the table and is no longer used by researchers in any university, you will also need to provide supporting evidence for this. This is why I'm repeatedly asking you for citations and usage in sources besides MGS who, in many ways, is a primary source here. Do you have access to any of the other books you have mentioned as being standard referential material for the Cheras?

Thapar's stature is quite irrelevant here and her terminology is inconsistent. If anything, Karashima (with his Cheraman Perumal dynasty of Mahodayapuram) is a more recent and reliable bet. Also, if Kulasekharas of Mahodayapuram is preferred by all except in recent scholarship, a case could also be made for it being a common name here. Besides, there are the other Chera dynasties that need to be addressed here as well.

In the meantime, please feel free to edit the draft as you see fit along with appropriate citations. Note that there are no deadlines here :) Thank you.—Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 08:54, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

Split the article

The early Cheras were a Dravidian dynasty and they were in no way related to the later Kshatriya dynasty. Therefore it is obvious that two unrelated dynasties are described in one article. It is better to split the article to two. One article for the Sangam period dynasty and the other for Kulasekharas, the later Kshatriya dynasty. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Meldort (talk • contribs) 07:46, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Meldort - One of the points of recent historical work in Kerala has precisely been that there is no reason to believe in discontinuity. The Later Cheras just appear to have adopted more Vedic/Sanskritic practices. There is no record or claim of any outside kingdom or dynasty to have defeated/replaced the Cheras. Please provide the corresponding sources to support your claim. Removing 'Article Split' notice until reliable supporting evidence is provided. Hyper9 (talk) 05:49, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

I second user Meldort. A similar classification is used for the Pandya dynasty from the same region [7] [8] (gnanvit (talk) 09:10, 15 January 2019 (UTC))

@Hyper9 I think the evidence you asked for can be found in this article itself. Under Kodungallur Cheras/Kulashekharas

"However, critical research in the late-1960s and early 1970s offered a major corrective to this. Recently, suggestions pointing to the other extreme, that the king at Kodungallur had only a "ritual sovereignty" and the actual political power rested with "a bold and visible Brahmin oligarchy" has emerged. While the earlier model of a highly centralised "empire" is considered not acceptable by historians, the third model is yet to be endorsed by them"

So it seems to speak for a visible break in the political structure - the early Cheras being presumably, a Dravidian tribal chiefdom and the later Cheras, ritual rulers under the power of a Brahmin oligarchy. (gnanvit (talk) 13:59, 17 January 2019 (UTC))

@(gnanvit (talk) - Upon referring to the source for this segment, one can find that this is a qualification to claims of cultural homogeneity of the region during the Second Chera/Kulasekhara period. This specific segment (that you highlight) refers to the claim that even the Second Cheras did not hold real political power but rather it was the ritualistic Brahmins who did during this period. The highly federated nature of Chera political power can be observed regularly, and the Kerala Brahmins add an additional element to it. Overall, this para (and its original extract) is not about the connections to the Early Cheras at all.

The strong cultural shift towards more Brahminical practices in the Later Chera/Kulasekhara period is fairly clear. However, no author provides any evidence/claim for the displacement or change of the ruling elite. That would require cataclysmic political and military changes, of which there is no record. Even the most pro-Brahminical authors admit that there is a continuity in the Dravidian portions (such as 'Cheraman') in the names of the Second Chera rulers. As I have pointed out earlier, the claim for a distinct political break is very broad, important and critical - and must have very have very strong support if you want to claim it. Because almost all Kerala historians now agree that there is some form of political continuity, even though there is a major cultural shift. Counter claims for a break often involves excessive mythologising, but little substance on how or why it occurred. Please provide the corresponding authoritative sources for such claims and I am sure that interested editors would engage with them. Hyper9 (talk) 16:44, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

@User talk:Hyper9By the way, I feel this article is in fairly good shape now. Would you like to take it to GA nomination? At least, it won't be rejected straight away. (gnanvit (talk) 17:30, 22 January 2019 (UTC))

@talk - Unfortunately, I am not currently involved in editing WP and I have not had a chance to go through this page's recent edits or content in detail - and so I cant really comment on its quality. I would leave that to your discretion. Hyper9 (talk) 22:06, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

I am not a significant contributor either, but I did some clean-up over the past week. So I have to invite actual contributors to do the nominating. (gnanvit (talk) 13:48, 23 January 2019 (UTC))

That's fine. I am sure that there are other active contributors and editors who can take this up. Cheers. Hyper9 (talk) 16:37, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Removed and rearranged some images

I have removed some images from the article because the article had become too cluttered by over-sized and bad lay-out images. (gnanvit (talk) 15:22, 18 January 2019 (UTC))

Please follow a common [standard] transliteration method for words from Malayalam, Sanskrit, and Tamil etc. Rajesh of Raigad (talk) 11:38, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

On splitting the article

I think its is better to split the article into three or four smaller articles...

1. Early Cheras [early historic period]
2. [Kongu] Cheras of Karur
3. Cheras [Kulasekharas] of Kodungallur [Mahodayapuram]
4. Cheras of Venadu [Kollam]

Reasons

• Although there is a high probability of blood ties between the Cheras [of the early historic period] and the other medieval kings claiming ancestry to them, the extent and nature of state formation is drastically different.

• Most of the ruling families in [late medieval to early modern] Kerala claim blood relations to the Cheras. So shall we include all of them here? The debate should not be about the whether the two [or three] clans related by blood or not.

• The split should be based on cultural, and economic factors.

• There no discontinuity in south Asian history!! All clans related to each other from time immemorial! Rajesh of Raigad (talk) 11:38, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

@ User:Rajesh of Raigad I would suggest having a main article titled Cheras, giving the broad overview of the topic and then other subsidiary articles dealing with early Cheras, Kongu Cheras, Kulashekharas, Venadu(??) etc. According to your opinion, are the Kochi rulers descended from the Cheras because some legends state the Kochi ruler as the koviladhikarikal through direct matrilineal descent from the last perumal. I couldn't find any sources though. Regards, (gnanvit (talk) 14:01, 23 January 2019 (UTC))

I would advise against a split mainly because of the number of splits this page has spawned in the past. To get an idea about this, you can view the number of redirects that lead to this page here - Redirects leading to the Chera dynasty page. There are too many ways of analysing/naming the Cheras and also there is too little specific details of anyone other than the Kulasekharas/Second Cheras. This only leads to too many interpretations and inaccuracies whose debates can be very cumbersome to deal with. Some such debates can be viewed in the archives of this Talk page and can become highly confrontational. Mainly based on my own experience of the difficulties of editing this Chera page in the past, I would advise against it. Perhaps additional articles repeating this information and then building upon it can be created, but there needs to remain a consolidated source page for this. Either ways, the large gaps in the histories of the various individual Chera branches should be kept in mind before proceeding. Hyper9 (talk) 16:33, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

OK...Rajesh of Raigad (talk) 10:42, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

@User:Rajesh of Raigad Can you fix the captions of the two images here [9]? (gnanvit (talk) 07:50, 3 February 2019 (UTC))

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Map of Chera Kingdom.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:36, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Tajuddin

User:StephenPaa, we can discuss here.--79.75.58.80 (talk) 11:56, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Okay. StephenPaa (talk) 11:59, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

StephenPaa, why only Mohanlal, and not Mammoty? lool--79.75.58.80 (talk) 12:03, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

StephenPaa why are you calling them vandalism? So obsessed with this word?--79.75.49.15 (talk) 15:49, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Dubious and insufficient sources (such as Indian newspaper/magazine reports) cannot be used as a reference. Please show your points in a recent and well-respected primary scholarly material. Please quote from the primary source material, preferably written by a well-respected scholar, also.

StephenPaa (talk) 17:21, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

You've mentioned the same thing several times. Many of the sources are reliable, and we don't even need to add that much references on the lede. I think a 3rd person should be involved here.--79.75.49.15 (talk) 18:55, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Dubious and insufficient sources (such as Indian newspaper/magazine reports) cannot be used as a reference. Please show your points in a recent and well-respected primary scholarly material.

Please quote from the primary source material, preferably written by a well-respected scholar in this particular field, also.

StephenPaa (talk) 09:16, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Cheras Did Not Speak Tamil, But an early form of Malayalam called Tamizh

The language spoken in Chera empire was an ancient form of Malayalam, called Tamizh. It is not Tamil language spoken in Pandia and Chola regions. Malayalam is classical.

If there is any proof that one of the earliest documents in Malayalam language is from 1200 years ago, it should have been produced in the court. Madras High Court has rejected such baseless claims.

Edit wars with ideologically motivated people are not fruitful. I am too young to do that. Can somebody please help clean up the article. Judgements from Indian judiciary and decisions by the Indian Union Cabinet should be given more weightage than random articles by someone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.248.141.21 (talk) 20:25, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

References

Scholarly books, not "judgements from Indian judiciary and decisions by the Indian Union Cabinet", are reliable sources by Wikipedia standards. Not to mention that the Madras High Court judgment cited by you doesn't even mention the Cheras. utcursch | talk 21:52, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

Probably OP was just mentioning that Malayalam (hopefully I spelled it right) is old enough that the first documents where much older than 1200 years old.

I think that the argument by the OP is valid. Judgments from courts are to be considered valid. The judgments are done with all these arguments and evidences being taken into consideration. Wikipedia does not have any official policy stating that Indian judicial declarations are not scholarly. As a person who likes Indology, currently in USA, I can vouch for the fact that in my field (Sinology) considers court judgments valid.

谷歌翻译 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.226.235.112 (talk) 19:42, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Inscription by Manikantha Ramavarman the alleged writer of first book Ramacharitham the first book in Malayalam Travancore.

Archaeological Series Vol IV by K.V SUBRAHMANYA AIYAR, Superindent of Archaeoligy, Printed by Superindent at Govt Press,1923 Page 65

KANYAKUMARI INSCRIPTION REIGN OF MANIKANTHA RAMAVARMAN 1201 AD KOLLAM 376

Script : Tamil

Language: Western Tamil

1. സ്വസ്തി ஶ்ரீ கொல்லம் ௩௱௭௰௬(376)-வது மெடநாயிற்று ௨௰௧(201) சென்ற சனியாண்ட மகத்தி

2. நாள் ஶ்ரீபாண்டி நாட்டுப்புறத்தாய நாடான தென்வாரணவாசி நன்னாட்டு குமரிக்கன்னியாபகவதியார் கொ

3. யிலில் உள்ளாலை ഗര്ഭഗ്രஹத்துக்கு ചന്ദ്രാദിത്യவற் திருநந்தாவிளக்கு செலுத்துவிதாக குரக்கேணிக்கொல்லத்

4. து வியாபாரி மணியன் கொவிந்தன் பக்கல் பொருள் கைய்க்கொண்டு குமரிக் கன்னியாபகவதியார் ஶ்ரீகொயிலி[ல் உ

5. ண் ணாழிகையொம் நியதம் முட்டாமல் நாராயநாழிக்கிட உழக்குநெய் செலுத்துவது  நெய் வார்த்து எரிய இடதராவி

6. ல் மயில் விளக்கு எடை ..........பலம்   இவைய் தெவர் முதற்க ணக்குந் திருவரங்கநல்லூருடையான் எ

7. ழுத்தினால் இவ்வெழுத்து .......இவ்வூர்த் தட்டான் அப்பன் சுந்தரனான முப்பத்திருவத்தட்டான் எழுத்து 17:31, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Perumal Thirumozhi written by Kulasekara Perumal founder of Later Chera dynasty in 825 AD

பெருமாள் திருமொழி தனியன்கள்

உடயவர் அருளிச் செய்தது

நேரிசை வெண்பா

	இன்னமுதம் ஊட்டுகேன் இங்கேவா பைங்கிளியே

தென்னரங்கம் பாடவல்ல சீர்ப்பெருமாள் பொன்னஞ் சிலைசேர் நுதலியர்வேள் சேரலர்கோன் எங்கள் குலசே கரனென்றே கூறு

மணக்கால் நம்பி அருளிச் செய்தது

கட்டளைக் கலித்துறை

	ஆரம் கெடப்பர னன்பர்கொள் ளாரென்று அவர்களுக்கே

வாரங் கொடுகுடப் பாம்பில்கை யிட்டவன் மாற்றலரை வீரங் கெடுத்தசெங் கோல்கொல்லி காவலன் வில்லவர்கோன் சேரன் குலசே கரன்முடி வேந்தர் சிகாமணியே

குலசேகரப்பெருமாள் திருவடிகளே சரணம்.

ஸ்ரீ: குலசேகரப்பெருமாள் அருளிச்செய்த பெருமாள் திருமொழி

எண்சீர்க் கழிநெடிலடி ஆசிரிய விருத்தம்

647 இருளிரியச் சுடர்மணிக ளிமைக்கும் நெற்றி இனத்துத்தி யணிபணமா யிரங்க ளார்ந்த அரவரசப் பெருஞ்சோதி யனந்த னென்னும் அணிவிளங்கு முயர்வெள்ளை யணையை மேவி திருவரங்கப் பெருநகருள் தெண்ணீர்ப் பொன்னி திரைக்கையா லடிவருடப் பள்ளி கொள்ளும் கருமணியைக் கோமளத்தைக் கண்டு கொண்டு என் கண்ணிணைக ளென்றுகொலோ களிக்கும் நாளே . 1

Vilmeenkodi (talk) 18:09, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Cheras Did Not Speak Tamil, But an early form of Malayalam called Tamizh

The language spoken in Chera empire was an ancient form of Malayalam, called Tamizh. It is not Tamil language spoken in Pandia and Chola regions. Malayalam is classical.

If there is any proof that one of the earliest documents in Malayalam language is from 1200 years ago, it should have been produced in the court. Madras High Court has rejected such baseless claims.

Edit wars with ideologically motivated people are not fruitful. I am too young to do that. Can somebody please help clean up the article. Judgements from Indian judiciary and decisions by the Indian Union Cabinet should be given more weightage than random articles by someone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.248.141.21 (talk) 20:25, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

References

Scholarly books, not "judgements from Indian judiciary and decisions by the Indian Union Cabinet", are reliable sources by Wikipedia standards. Not to mention that the Madras High Court judgment cited by you doesn't even mention the Cheras. utcursch | talk 21:52, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

Probably OP was just mentioning that Malayalam (hopefully I spelled it right) is old enough that the first documents where much older than 1200 years old.

I think that the argument by the OP is valid. Judgments from courts are to be considered valid. The judgments are done with all these arguments and evidences being taken into consideration. Wikipedia does not have any official policy stating that Indian judicial declarations are not scholarly. As a person who likes Indology, currently in USA, I can vouch for the fact that in my field (Sinology) considers court judgments valid.

谷歌翻译 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.226.235.112 (talk) 19:42, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Tajuddin

User:StephenPaa, we can discuss here.--79.75.58.80 (talk) 11:56, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Okay. StephenPaa (talk) 11:59, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

StephenPaa, why only Mohanlal, and not Mammoty? lool--79.75.58.80 (talk) 12:03, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

StephenPaa why are you calling them vandalism? So obsessed with this word?--79.75.49.15 (talk) 15:49, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Dubious and insufficient sources (such as Indian newspaper/magazine reports) cannot be used as a reference. Please show your points in a recent and well-respected primary scholarly material. Please quote from the primary source material, preferably written by a well-respected scholar, also.

StephenPaa (talk) 17:21, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

You've mentioned the same thing several times. Many of the sources are reliable, and we don't even need to add that much references on the lede. I think a 3rd person should be involved here.--79.75.49.15 (talk) 18:55, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Dubious and insufficient sources (such as Indian newspaper/magazine reports) cannot be used as a reference. Please show your points in a recent and well-respected primary scholarly material.

Please quote from the primary source material, preferably written by a well-respected scholar in this particular field, also.

StephenPaa (talk) 09:16, 26 October 2019 (UTC)