Talk:Transgender youth

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Portraits of Transgendered Children

I'd like to add this external link from the NY Times that has portrayed transgendered children according to how they view themselves.

• Beautifully photographed Dutch transgendered youth — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rachelmann54 (talk • contribs) 17:13, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Gender Spectrum Family

I'd like to add the following external link, but am employed by Gender Spectrum.

• Gender Spectrum Family - Support and information site for families of transgender youth.

Zapote (talk) 06:32, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I've reviewed the site and appears to meet the requirements, so I've added it. Since the home page was the most "advertising" page on the site, I've linked to the "What is Gender Variance" page instead. --AliceJMarkham (talk) 11:19, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Good idea. Thanks, Alice. Zapote (talk) 06:47, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Neutral POV

Hi, can we please have a few more people read over the article and help to resolve some of the points that are bordering as original research? Wikipedia should endevour to maintain a neutral point of view, and statements like "Puberty is often considered to be a difficult time for everyone in many ways. But unlike their peers, who may be excited about bodily changes and thrilled with growing up, transsexual teenagers are appalled by the changes that take place" are overly generalised and unencyclopedic, and for a subject of this sensitive nature we should definitely strive to ensure the language used is neutral and impartial. Thanks. Justin.Parallax (talk) 10:06, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

The answer is no. Things like gender are not scientific in any way. Mannerisms attributed to male vs female is completely subjective to how you were raised and how someone dresses, talks and acts is all learned behavior not in-born. In other cultures for instance men wear what we would call a dress. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.207.130.18 (talk • contribs) 20:09, July 20, 2014

Do you realise you just totally invalidated transgender identity and gender dysphoria? Quote: "how someone dresses, talks and acts is all learned behavior not in-born" Okay so sexual reassignment surgery is totally unnecessary -- these people were obviously inadequately educated by their parents in the norms of their gender and we can just ship them off somewhere for a while until they are re-educated..... Would you suggest a Gulag or a Kamp?

Um, just because they view gender as largely sociological doesn't mean that they've invalidated trans identities. Race and ethnicity are constructs as well, but we see the very real and very powerful impacts they have. Gender dysphoria is real. The struggles of trans people are real. Gender, however, may not be a biological thing. The assumption that gender is biological seems to imply that it mirrors sex, which potentially invalidates some nonbinary people. Learning and enacting gender isn't about simple education. It's far more complex than that. I don't think anyone in gender studies who prefers the sociological view of gender believes that anyone should be shipped off to camps; rather that gender is more malleable and complex than a male/female switch in the brain. Just because something is a construct doesn't mean it's meaningless. Don't be stupid. 72.181.110.248 (talk) 15:43, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Having said that, the part in the current correct language that bothers me is use of expressions like "assigned male at birth" or "assigned female" -- it makes transgender identity sound like a bureaucratic error or a malicious abuse committed at birth. It isn't. Assignment as a fe/male only makes sense in the context of intersexed anatomy, where there is no clear gender. Even this should become a thing of the past with genetic tests which should reveal the presence of the Y chromosome no matter how dubious the anatomy may appear at birth before assignment is made.

The move to treat adolescents with sex reassignment procedures should be concerning. Is medicine now saying, in effect, we can do away with homosexuality by reassigning every dysphoric child of the next generation? It is human nature to be fretful about ambiguity of any kind. If society is saying it prefers a surgical solution to the homosexual "problem" then it is hoping for a future in which the number of men who prefer to be with men or women who prefer to be with women is minimised, by relabelling homosexuals as candidates for surgery..... Something to ponder. 76.67.127.235 (talk) 07:57, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

This is a really weird slippery slope argument. Sexuality and gender are not the same thing. Just because a cis man likes men doesn't mean he should be reassigned to a woman. It should be clear to any health professional educated on the topic, and I can tell you that lgbt issues are becoming more studied in the academy, and will likely continue to be studied as assimilation continues. I wouldn't worry about that. 72.181.110.248 (talk) 15:43, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Exactly. There are tons of lesbian trans women and gay trans men, who were seemingly straight before transition and therefore didn't gain anything in the way of heterosexuality through their transition, quite the opposite, and gender transition is such a radical act that it isn't exactly a convenient solution to the comparatively minor issue of homosexuality. Not to mention all the other possibilities such as bisexuality, asexuality, or even more complicated orientations.

Moreover, "assigned female/male at birth" is a supremely neutral term. It doesn't imply anything about the correctness of the assignment. And the presence of a Y chromosome doesn't really mean much at all, since it is in itself fairly unimportant (see the ISNA website). Why should a girl with CAIS who feels completely fine living as a girl forcefully reassigned to male just because she happens to have invisible Y chromosomes in her body?

Also, transsexuality is a lot more than a sociological problem. It does not simply involve changing clothes, hairstyle, habits, name and pronoun, but also (usually) hormonal balance and (often) surgeries of various kinds. Few adults are androgynous enough to not need either to "pass" as the gender they identify with (it's easier for teenagers and no problem for children; to be fair, "passing" is not equally important for every trans person), and most of them experience various degrees of dysphoria (unease) about aspects of their body that are not so easily fixed and cannot be filed under the purely sociological aspect of gender. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 03:50, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

To: Justin.Parallax - I could not agree more that the state of the NPOV is in a bad place here at Wikipedia. As I discuss: research writing does not use language such as "overwhelmingly" and this is wholly inappropriate, unscientific editorialization without a source, and this is in no way neutral. "Evidence suggests" or "It is well established" is the language of research writing. But the opinion of NorthBySouthBaronof seems to trump the standards and practices in peer reviewed journals because it is 'better' in their eyes. I really see it as unjustifiable to endorse a wholly impartial stance regarding scientfic claims.Kkeeran (talk) 20:03, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Kkeeran, I encourage you to post a new section instead of resurrecting a four-years-dead thread. Firefangledfeathers 20:14, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Is there a rule that I have broken, given that my addendum to the topic of NPOV is time-stamped, and related to the section?Kkeeran (talk) 20:21, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

No rule, as far as I know. Editors who come here looking to join discussions are likely to start at the bottom of the page. While your concern and this thread both involve NPOV, the specific nature of the content complaints are different. This is just advice, take it or leave it. Firefangledfeathers 20:30, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Suggested edits to page

Hello! I'm currently in a Global Youth Studies class where we're editing articles on Wikipedia to make them more accurate and inclusive. I've chosen this article to edit for a number of reasons-- mainly that it's very underdeveloped and lacks a neutral POV. I've begun drafting these edits in my sandbox. So far I've been working on the section about vulnerability-- common issues that trans youth face I've removed the section "puberty" because it was very not neutral, and i also removed the section "Suicide attempt rates" because it overlaps with my suicide subsection. I plan on adding much more, especially about transgender youth in various countries, and expand on/ edit many of the sections that are currently there. I'll post here occasionally with updates on changes I've made to my draft. Any feedback/ criticisms/ suggestions are welcome and appreciated! Nativ32 (talk) 06:00, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Outcomes

Are there any statistics actually comparing different treatment methods? How do effeminate men/masculine women who do not undergo transgender conversion therapy compare in terms of suicide rates with those who do attempt to transform? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.207.136.200 (talk • contribs) 07:50, November 14, 2014‎

Hello! I'm currently in a Global Youth Studies class where we're editing articles on Wikipedia to make them more accurate and inclusive. In my attempts to add more global perspective to the living conditions of youth around the world, I added the nation of Malta who is known for their strides in creating a more inclusive society through legislation for transgender youth. I have also fleshed out various existing sections in the article such as homelessness, healthcare, and suicide. In order to give more specific examples of transgender youth, I brought in a few examples of living transgender youth activists. I felt this was important in order to see that there are narratives and role models of what it looks like to be a transgender youth in this day and age. Let me know what your thoughts are on my additions and if you think anything needs to become more neutral. Thanks! Kkaltenheuser (talk) 04:30, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

School environment section

Hi there, I'm a student getting my MA in sociology and my thesis is on school support and staff training for transgender children/youth who are questioning or transitioning. I'm thinking there needs to be a section dedicated to the school experience of transgender youth that extends beyond just discussing bullying/harassment and popular topics about which bathrooms or locker room transgender students have to use. Since youth spend 6+ hours a day in school 5 days a week (assuming they're going to school), it is worth noting how influential school environment and support from peers/teachers/staff is to their well being. Additionally, the topic of how school administrations and teachers are trained (or not trained) on how to support transgender youth should be discussed in some way. Just some food for thought, let me know what you think! — Preceding unsigned comment added by KMonderine (talk • contribs) 18:46, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Additions to current sections on page

Hi, I'm a student at LSU taking a Women's Gender Studies class which requires that we edit Wikipedia pages in order to add adequate information to support the page. I would like to add to the section "Coming Out" in which I would add to the definition and connotation as to what it means to come out and a brief history of the term as it relates to the youth. I would also like to add to evidence to prove how teens are seen as being more vulnerably than compared to those who are not transgendered.

Joyrucker5 (talk) 16:12, 25 February 2016 (UTC)joyrucker5

Legal rights and issues of those under the age of majority

It would be great if this page talked more about the problems that those under the age of majority face, including legal forms of abuse. I feel that not enough attention is given to these issues, and that as a particularly vulnerable group of society that it deserve more attention. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rcl725 (talk • contribs) 18:34, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Lead summary on best care

Regarding this, this, this, this, this, this and this, I want to be clear about correctly interpreting WP:MEDRS. WP:MEDRS tells us that "Ideal sources for biomedical information include: review articles (especially systematic reviews) published in reputable medical journals; academic and professional books written by experts in the relevant fields and from respected publishers; and guidelines or position statements from national or international expert bodies." And as for guidelines? One of the things the WP:MEDORG section of WP:MEDRS states is the following: "Guidelines do not always correspond to best evidence, but instead of omitting them, reference the scientific literature and explain how it may differ from the guidelines. [...] The reliability of these sources ranges from formal scientific reports, which can be the equal of the best reviews published in medical journals, through public guides and service announcements, which have the advantage of being freely readable, but are generally less authoritative than the underlying medical literature." In other words, WP:MEDRS is clear that we follow the general literature rather than just what an organization (like the WHO), or manual like the DSM-5, or a diagnostic code like the ICD-11 states. This was also made clear years ago at WP:Med: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine/Archive 36#DSM 5. The general literature, for example, supports desistance (which is not the same as detransition) rates as ranging from 60 to 80%, and that includes what recent reviews relay. This is despite discussion in some of the literature that the 80% (or 90%, or above 90%, in other cases) number may be inflated. That stated, I don't see that desistance rates need to be in the lead, not unless significantly covered lower first.

I reverted the IP because, like I stated, World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) is not broad consensus. It's what their organization believes. And views on puberty blockers are very varied among professionals. The IP worded it as "broad consensus" and as something that is definitely always the best care. We know from the desistance rates, which are substantial enough for professionals to consider when treating children with gender dysphoria, that the best care isn't always social transition and puberty blockers. What many professionals do agree on as best care is supportive mental health care. For example this 2015 "Psychopathology: Foundations for a Contemporary Understanding" source, from Routledge, pages 464–465, is clear that supportive care involves clinicians advising children and their parents to avoid goals based on gender identity and to instead cope with the child's distress by embracing psychoeducation and to be supportive of their gender variant identity and behavior as it develops. A clinician may suggest that the parent be attentive, listen, and encourage an environment for the child to explore and express their identified gender identity, which may be termed the true gender. This can remove the stigma associated with their dysphoria, as well as the pressure to conform to a gender identity or role they do not identify with, which may be termed the false gender self. Since Rab V removed the "Although groups opposed to transgender rights continue to challenge the morality of providing identity-affirming care to transgender children" POV and used "may" when restoring the IP's text, I won't revert. But unless the sources state "broad consensus", we should not either. And even then, WP:In-text attribution should be used if it's just WPATH stating that. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 00:19, 19 July 2020 (UTC) Tweaked post. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 00:37, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Revert

@Rab V: Please see the Ristori & Steensma review article I added [1], which does support the content about desistance in the lead. Zucker offers additional commentary here; please see in particular the table on page 4. Cheers, gnu57 23:05, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

I'm not able to gain access to the paper unfortunately. Does it counter the other RS that note if gender dysphoria persists into puberty it is likely to continue into adulthood? If not I think the lead statement should be qualified to clarify that as well. Also would like to know if it is about gender dysphoria or gender variance. Several RS combine children who want to express their gender differently than the norm but do not identify with a different gender than their assigned one and it is useful to clarify the distinction when making claims about trans youth. Rab V (talk) 23:32, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

In addition to the issues Rab points out, which need to be clarified, I would also point out on a procedural level that the lead is supposed to summarize the contents of the body relative to their weight, and the body never mentions "morality", "informed consent", or "permanent" changes at all; the simplest thing to do might be to make the necessary qualifications and move the statement from the lead down into the body. -sche (talk) 00:41, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Verified by the source: [2] And as a review article, it is the cream of the crop WP:MEDRS-wise. I see no reason to remove the statement from the lead; major aspects of a topic belong there and any deficiency in the body can simply be addressed. Crossroads ^-talk- 03:46, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Multiple issues with this statement

"most doctors are reluctant to provide medical treatments to them, transgender youth face different challenges compared to adults. There is a broad consensus among experts and professional associations that appropriate care may include supportive mental health care, social transition, and puberty blockers"

These two statements completely contradict each other. Furthermore, the citation for the latter statement (which is filled with weasel phrasing) cites only special interest groups. If most doctors are reluctant to provide the services that these people want, then how is there a consensus that the services are appropriate?

I've changed the weasley phrase of "experts and professional associations" to "special interest groups" as it reflects what the citation contains and specifies more thoroughly the types of people who support the procedures. Innican Soufou (talk) 22:06, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

I have reverted the BOLD change. To the best of my knowledge, the American Psychological Association is not normally considered a Special interest group, but rather a professional association. Newimpartial (talk) 22:12, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Looking at the sources, that language isn't in them at all. So I've removed it. Innican Soufou (talk) 00:04, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Edits to Sections on Education and Health Care

Hello! I'm currently in an LGBTQ Politics and Policy class where we're editing articles on Wikipedia to make them more accurate and inclusive. I'm interested in editing the sections on 'Lack of Access to Healthcare' and 'Accommodation in School' to include a discussion of recent bills passed by state legislatures targeting transgender youth such as by barring or criminalizing healthcare for transgender youth, barring access to the use of appropriate facilities like restrooms, restricting transgender students’ ability to fully participate in school and sports. I was inspired to contribute to this article because this past week The New York Time's podcast The Daily did an episode covering how in 2021 alone there have already been more than 80 bills, introduced in mostly Republican-controlled legislatures, that aim to restrict transgender rights, mostly in sports and medical care. By adding to these sections, readers will understand the recent wave of anti-transgender legislation.

I plan to make these changes this week but wanted to receive feedback first. Any criticisms/ suggestions are welcome and appreciated! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sedeboer (talk • contribs)

Hi, the most important things to keep in mind is to avoid WP:Editorializing and to WP:STICKTOSOURCE, so as to keep a WP:Neutral point of view. No claim or implication not in a source should be inserted into the article. This means sticking to WP:Reliable sources, preferably academic sources, per the WP:SOURCETYPES heading of that guideline page. Crossroads ^-talk- 04:41, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Numbers, please

How many children identified as transgender in each year, in which countries, since this issue became a subject of mainstream discussion? How many children (again, country-by-country) took medical or surgical transition-treatment? Why do I have to post this question? This is not my subject of expertise, but some work needs to be done here (IMHO). The article is badly incomplete without numbers. HandsomeMrToad (talk) 04:08, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

I can answer one question right off the bat - no country will allow gender confirmation surgery on the genital area for under 18s, I believe, so the answer there is zero. Not sure where the best source for the other questions is. Amekyras (talk) 17:09, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Note, however, that the number for "top surgery" for under-18s is not zero, though it is likely to be vanishingly small. I dare say that no reliable statistics are available for most of these questions, though if anyone finds citations available we can of course include them in articles as is DUE. Newimpartial (talk) 17:31, 19 May 2021 (UTC)