Talk:Gaza Strip

Section "Legality of Hamas rule"

Is there a particular reason, why three quarters of the section "Legality of Hamas rule" talk about anything but the legality of Hamas rule? By its title, one could be lead to believe, that the section's purpose is to discuss the legal implications of the 2007 takeover and the election-less time ever since, the legitimacy and tendencies of Hamas-imposed legal or para-legal enforcements, but then, surprisingly, the text is mostly preoccupied with Israel and IDF, a topic that seems abundantly covered in the rest of the article... --Mai-Sachme (talk) 17:19, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Stating that Gaza is self governed is a total falsehood. It is a Hamas dictatorship ruled by violence and the threat of violence like all dictatorships. The first election was the last election like all dictatorships. There is no self government in Gaza. Statethefacts99 (talk) 23:34, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Is there an original link to the Quartet demands on the 2006 Hamas government ? The link provided doesn't seem to be an original source. The 2006 Palestinian election wikipedia page gives a link "Quartet Statement London, 30 January 2006. The Office of the Quartet." but my computer refuses to download that citing a security issue (is that just my overzealous anti malware programs ?) thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.11.163.59 (talk) 21:06, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 May 2021

Remove the space between "lifted" and the citations in the 3rd paragraph of the lead section: "The UN has also urged that the blockade be lifted [21][22][23]" Hyuhanon (talk) 11:57, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

 Done Bsoyka (talk · contribs) 14:10, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 May 2021 (2)

You need to modify the definition of hamas at the spot the page explain that gaza is currently govern by hamas- you have to add the fact that hamas is a terror organization!!! Otherwise it's irresponsible!! 2A01:73C0:502:902E:0:0:4B96:ADC7 (talk) 20:54, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:58, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Edit request

The population is expected to increase to 2.1 million in 2020. in the lede should be changed, 2020 is gone :) --Dr.Bookman (talk) 21:54, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Egyptian Border Openings

"After the August 2013 Rabaa Massacre in Egypt, the border crossing was closed 'indefinitely.'"

Apparently it was re-opened in May 2018: https://www.npr.org/2019/07/04/733487137/i-want-to-get-the-hell-out-of-here-thousands-of-palestinians-are-leaving-gaza

https://www.reuters.com/article/palestinians-politics-egypt-int/egypt-opens-rafah-crossing-with-gaza-until-further-notice-sources-idUSKBN2A91J7

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/egypt-opens-rafah-crossing-early-palestinian-travellers-sources-2021-05-16/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafah_Border_Crossing

Drsruli (talk) 16:57, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 June 2021

Please remove the {{By whom?}} on the “indirect occupation” quote in the lead. If the cited journal is considered a reliable source, it should be sufficient that the source states, The continued Israeli de facto or, as it was sometimes called, “indirect occupation” of Gaza …. Also, please add the word “sometimes”, as per the source. 96.8.24.95 (talk) 00:43, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Alternatively, remove the International Security source and tag it as needing citation. The source is there to verify the claim that it’s described as an indirect occupation. If it doesn’t do that, dump it. —96.8.24.95 (talk) 06:20, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: The {{By whom?}} is required to make the sentence more clear rather than the use of weasel words. As to add the word sometimes, that is again a weasel word. — LeoFrank  ^Talk 10:18, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Then should we avoid using that source here? The flagged sentence is simply reporting what the source says, so if that’s insufficient, it sounds like the source is equally insufficient for this use. —96.8.24.95 (talk) 06:36, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. Melmann 09:37, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Overcrowding

A sentence in the lead says the Strip is often referred to as overcrowded. Elsewhere, we cite a UN report that mentions said overcrowding; can’t we attribute it to that? Also in the same sentence, the text “13th highest” is linked to List of countries by population growth rate; wouldn’t it make more sense to link the bit that says “population growth rate”? And the CIA World Factbook cite should probably be moved up from the end of the sentence for text-source integrity, as there’s no mention of overcrowding. —96.8.24.95 (talk) 07:05, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

clarification

"Due to the Israeli and Egyptian border closures and the Israeli sea and air blockade, the population is not free to leave or enter the Gaza Strip" - are there any reliable sources to this statement?

also, when saying "not free to leave or enter", does it mean they can't leave or enter or that they're just limited in doing so?

I believe clarification is needed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.250.243.85 (talk) 18:36, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Length of lede

Your tag of September 2021 says the lead section may be too long for the length of the article. It actually comes to about 5% of the word-count, and therefore very much a normal proportion, possibly even a little on the light side.

It is the main article that might be considered too long at over 13,000 words, and we should be looking at how to edit-down, possibly by condensing some of the history. Valetude (talk) 12:39, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

I removed the tags from the article. Bill Williams 21:52, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Issues in Lead

Nableezy I agree it is odd to call it a de facto sovereign state, but I do not know what other term is most accurate. Describing it as a "Palestinian enclave" with a hyperlink to an article about West Bank enclaves specifically is definitely not accurate, especially since the actual definition of an enclave does not include territories that border the ocean. I also think it should be mentioned that Hamas won the elections but Fatah refused to recognize the results, since that is the reason as to why Hamas only rules the Gaza strip and not the West Bank as well, and the PNA is already mentioned in the article, so additional clarification is necessary. Bill Williams 22:03, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Im ok removing the wikilink, and maybe enclave is not the right word. But Hamas nor anybody else claims Gaza to be a state. And given that the UN and others consider it to still be under Israeli occupation it is definitely not sovereign. Why one rules Gaza and the other rules the West Bank is way more complicated than a failure to recognize results, but even then it doesnt change that all parties continue to consider Gaza and the West Bank to form one territory. nableezy - 22:07, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Yeah I agree that "sovereign" is certainly an inaccurate term, but I think "Palestinian territory" would be much more accurate than "Palestinian enclave", linking to the article on Palestinians instead of the West Bank enclaves. Although it may not be a sovereign territory, the term "Gaza Strip" always refers specifically to a territory that is almost entirely Palestinian. Bill Williams 22:17, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

There is no shortage of correct descriptions.Here is an uptodate source that refers to Gaza as a bantustan and as an enclave. Apart from that, it is also part of the territory claimed by (State of) Palestine or you could simply refer to it as Opt.

"Bantustan" is rarely ever used to describe Gaza, and "enclave" is factually incorrect. An enclave is landlocked and fully surrounded by another territory, which does not describe Gaza. As for your source, it is far too biased to used to put a controversial term in the very front of the lead. Bill Williams 22:48, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

We go by sources and the given source is certainly more reliable than your opinion. As for googling things try Gaza + Bantustan.Selfstudier (talk) 22:54, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

"the given source is certainly more reliable than your opinion" does not magically prove that "bantustan" is commonly used to describe gaza, because it is not. If you tried "googling things" you would see that [1] gaza being called a "palestinian territory" has 1,770,000 results, while gaza being called a "bantustan" has [2] only 21,800, i.e. 1/80 the results. Similar to territory, the term "enclave" comes up with a similar number of results[3] at 1,240,000, but the term is geographically inaccurate[4] and therefore it should not be used. Bill Williams 18:26, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

I never said that Bantustan is commonly used, I was disputing your "rarely" which is simply wrong. There is even a 1985 book called Bantustan Gaza.

There are different definitions for enclave. Oxford languages gives "a portion of territory within or surrounded by a larger territory whose inhabitants are culturally or ethnically distinct. and "they gave troops a week to leave the coastal enclave" <- Gaza.

Gaza (or the WB) being called Palestinian territory gets the most hits because it was called that for years. As I already said above, Occupied Palestinian Territory (or OPT) is much more common now Selfstudier (talk) 18:47, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Occupied Palestinian Territory means it is still a Palestinian territory, and the Israeli-Palestine dispute is already covered in this article. The territory is blockaded by Israel and Egypt, resulting in what some consider an occupation, but that has a detailed explanation later in the lead, so calling it "occupied" a few words into the article would mislead readers into thinking it is has enemy soldiers within it or something. Bill Williams 19:55, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

I agree bantustan is not the typical thing to call Gaza. I think enclave is often used, but not in the way that it is used in the article Palestinian enclaves, which is more about the disconnected areas within the West Bank, though Gaza is sometimes also treated as that. I do not think state, de facto or any other qualifier notwithstanding, is appropriate. The results on "palestinian territory" are skwewed by all the results that include it within the "Occupied Palestinian territory" (including most of the first page of your search). nableezy - 18:31, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Yeah I did notice that it may be skewed, but I still think it is a more accurate term. The Palestinian enclaves within occupied Israeli territory should not be conflated with Gaza, since they are ruled differently and are separated by Israel, and I think that hyperlinking to them is too misleading. I think the only accurate term that can be used in the first few words of the article is "Palestinian territory" since although it may not be a state by some definitions, it is certainly a territory that is almost entirety inhabited by Palestinians. Bill Williams 18:42, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

See the ngram above, Palestinian territory is used by the BBC (their style guide is positively Victorian) but is otherwise old hat.Selfstudier (talk) 18:49, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Just use google and you will see numerous instances of it being referred to as a "Palestinian territory". Oxford is not a geographical expert, neither is the media, the technical definition of enclave is completely surrounded and landlocked which does not accurately describe the Gaza Strip. Israel and Egypt's blockade may make Gaza de facto landlocked, but the geographical term does not account for the political dispute, just Gaza's location, which is bordering the sea. As for Bantustan, that term is rarely used; the term rarely could mean tens of thousands, but out of millions, it is relatively rare. Bill Williams 19:52, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Ngrams uses scholarly sources, as well as laying it out timewise, much better. The fact that you thought Gaza a de facto sovereign state and now you think it a Palestinian territory tells me all I need to know, really.Selfstudier (talk) 19:59, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Theres no reason to be dismissive of somebody changing their mind when other information is brought up, this does not have to be combative at all. nableezy - 20:01, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Can you explain why you think enclave, without the link (and Im going to remove that now, just clicking on it proves it should not be used here as it defines itself as WB areas), is inaccurate? I feel like territory is somehow accurate but too non-specific. I get technically Gaza has its territorial waters, but those are also controlled by Israel. I guess despite the border with Egypt being closed that makes it technically not an enclave? nableezy - 20:00, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Yeah that is what I am saying, Israel heavily restricts and often closes its border, Egypt has restrictions on its as well, and both blockade the shorelines, so its borders are effectively under complete control of other nations. But the term enclave is not about the geopolitical situation, only the geographical one; for example, although Vatican City is geographically an enclave, there are almost no restrictions on its "border" with Italy, so it functions as if it is just another part of Rome. Having no control over your external borders does not make you an enclave, since Nepal is surrounded on two sides by China and India, each of which has far more influence over its borders than it does, but it is not completely surrounded by one single country, and therefore is not an enclave. Although Israel exerts more restrictions over its territory, Gaza is still surrounded by both Israel and Egypt, in addition to its territorial waters, meaning it is not technically a geographical enclave. Bill Williams 20:28, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

I think this is a verifiability vs truth thing, but I also think your point is fair. How about The Gaza Strip is a narrow strip of land on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean Sea, forming, along with the West Bank including East Jerusalem, the Palestinian territories. And then some bits about being bordered by Egypt (@Zero0000: is that actually a border or is that too an armistice line?) and Israel (taking care of the word border there)? nableezy - 21:17, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

I think that is an improvement, but I would prefer

"The Gaza Strip, commonly referred to as Gaza, is a narrow strip of land on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean Sea. Gaza is one of the two Palestinian territories, along with the West Bank; both are claimed by the de jure sovereign State of Palestine, but Gaza is under the control of Hamas, a militant Palestinian Islamist organization."

The part about East Jerusalem is unnecessary since that is part of the West Bank, and I all of the adjectives on the State of Palestine and Hamas could be left for later paragraphs, but it would be okay this way. Bill Williams 21:48, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Also I think the more detailed explanation of the Hamas-Fatah conflict belongs in the second paragraph instead of the last paragraph. Bill Williams 21:53, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

I dont like the one of the two, they together make up the singular unit. I suppose I am ok removing EJ. I dont think we need to define Hamas here either, thats what the Hamas article is for. I also dont think it is a claim that that they are claimed by the state or that there is a state is a claim, thats an established fact by other states recognizing it, but that is also not necessary here. Lets see if anybody else has any suggestions on wording here, but not too big a fan of some of these changes. Ill suggest something else soonish as well. nableezy - 22:25, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

That is true, I think we could shorten it and explain what Hamas and the claims of Palestine are later, simply by putting in the first two sentences:,

"The Gaza Strip, commonly referred to as Gaza, is a Palestinian territory on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean Sea. Gaza is claimed by the State of Palestine, but has been under the control of Hamas since 2007."

The specifics could be left for later in the article or the respective articles of the individual topics. Bill Williams 22:50, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

To editor Nableezy: You ask if the Gaza-Egypt boundary is an armistice line or a border. The 1949 armistice agreement did not define it as either, as the armistice line followed the Gaza Strip border around the north and east. The 1979 Israel-Egypt peace treaty says "The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel is the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine, as shown on the map at Annex II, without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip." (A similar wording wrt the WB appears in the Israel-Jordan treaty.) So it is a border as far as Egypt and Israel are concerned, with allowance for future change of status. No Palestinian body was party to the Israel-Egypt treaty, but I don't think that either Hamas or PA claim bits of Sinai so it is a reasonable assumption (without an explicit source) that they also regard it as a border. Zero^talk 02:32, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

I would be content with a first para

"The Gaza Strip, commonly referred to as Gaza, is an enclave on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean Sea (refs) claimed, together with the West Bank, by the State of Palestine.(ref) It borders Egypt on the southwest for 11 kilometers (6.8 mi) and Israel on the east and north along a 51 km (32 mi) border.(ref)"

or similar. I think the Hamas governance sits better in the second para along with the way that came to be.Selfstudier (talk) 14:45, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

The State of Palestine has effectively almost 0 control over the Gaza Strip, so if it is mentioned in the first paragraph, then Hamas's de facto control should be mentioned as well. And once again, the geographical term "enclave" does not apply to the Gaza Strip. The sources that use it clearly do not understand the true geographical meaning, which is completely surrounded by a single state, with no territorial waters that border a sea that connects to an ocean. Gaza borders the Mediterranean, which connects to the Atlantic Ocean, so it is not landlocked, regardless of Israel and Egypt's blockage of some of its territorial waters, it still has partial control over the closest parts of the waters, and it is surrounded by two states, Israel and Egypt, not the single one required for it to be an enclave. Bill Williams 19:11, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Strictly speaking (at least by one def) it is an exclave and it's classed as that in our list article but that's an odd word to put in the lead, particularly when so many completely stupid and unreliable sources (BBC included) are happy to call it an enclave.

Let's see if anyone will agree with you re the need for Hamas control to be in line 2 instead of line 3. Selfstudier (talk) 19:17, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Yeah I know I am being technical, and that many sources call it an enclave, but my point is that if an editor is writing about the controversy of Israel and Palestine, they will pay minimal attention to geographical terms that they did not realize were being used incorrectly. I also agree that calling it an exclave would be odd, since most readers would not know what that is either. Bill Williams 19:19, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Un año mas, here's to 2022 :) Selfstudier (talk) 19:29, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

WINEP survey

The Washington Institute for Near East Policy is certifiably identifiable with one side of the Arab-Israeli conflict, and using it as the sole source for opinions of the other side is silly. Especially given the conflicting surveys, for example from Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research here which is much better placed to provide insight in to the views of Palestinians. Or this one that finds the exact opposite, that a higher percentage of WB Palestinians support the two-state solution over Gazans (45 WB vs 38 Gaza). nableezy - 15:45, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

What the hyper-pro-Israeli think tank is saying is that people in a concentration camp of Israel's making, many on bare survival levels for 2 decades, drinking often filtered sewage water, where to get treatment for cancer in Israel you are grilled until you give information to Shin Bet on your neighbours, and where close to 70% of the population is food-insecure and 86% of children under 5 had a minimally adequate diet thanks to Israeli restrictions, would prefer to live in Israel, where once their fathers or relatives earned a basic wage that provided them with some prospects in life than what is allowed to them in the shell-shocked world, malnourished world of the Gaza strip. The obtusity of earlier generations of anthropologists in framing question-begging questions to an indigenous people, getting partisan results, here finds yet one further reminder of how stupid such reports, generated by 'think tankers' in their comfortable airconditioned armchairs, can be. Obscene. Nishidani (talk) 16:51, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

By the way, Abdel Hamid El Bilbeisi, Ayoub Al-Jawaldeh, Ali Albelbeisi, Samer Abuzerr, Ibrahim Elmadfa, Lara Nasreddine, 'Households' Food Insecurity and Their Association With Dietary Intakes, Nutrition-Related Knowledge, Attitudes and Practices Among Under-five Children in Gaza Strip, Palestine,' in Front Public Health, 22 February 2022 should be used to replace the 2002 data in the section on health in our article if anyone can get a download of the full text.Nishidani (talk) 16:51, 1 August 2022 (UTC)