Talk:Assassin's Creed Shadows

Sweet Baby Inc.

Why wasn't it mentioned in regards to the Shadows controversy? The charges of racism are completely baseless. JBrownIII (talk) 15:47, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

No reliable source has mentioned Sweet Baby in regards to this. — Masem (t) 16:19, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Ha! You mean this very site? Well I couldn't agree more. JBrownIII (talk) 18:00, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I mean, I see a number of random YouTube videos, neogaf posts, and unreliable sites saying this game is ruined by SBI, but no RS has tied the dissentment about the inclusion of the one character as something that could be attributed to SBI. Keep in mind the RSes themselves are not critical of this choice, only reporting that some fans are upset over the choice. Masem (t) 18:32, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

the company consults on video game narratives during development to promote diversity, equity, and inclusion

In 2023, the studio became the target of online users who claimed it promoted a "woke agenda".

Steam user created a curator group listing Sweet Baby's work, encouraging players to avoid the games as the studio promoted a "woke agenda". The curator group, known as "Sweet Baby Inc detected", received increased attention in February when a Sweet Baby employee asked others to report the group and its creator for violating Steam's code of conduct. The group's creator accused Sweet Baby of censorship. By April, the group had more than 355,000 followers and a related Discord server had thousands of members. JBrownIII (talk) 05:49, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

And what does this have to do with the game...? λ NegativeMP1 06:20, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

nothing, absolutely nothing 75.163.149.56 (talk) 20:16, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Great contribution. JBrownIII (talk) 04:43, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Should we focus more on racism

As a Japanese man, it strikes me how many western publications want to denigrate Yasuke for not being born on this island. There are a lot of sources that discuss the racism, but its only mentioned once on the page. Should we add more about the sadness this has made in the Americas? 弥助は本物の忍者だった (talk) 04:07, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

We need reliable sources that specifically discuss and/or criticize the representation of Yasuke in the game itself. We know there are academic sources that discuss Yasuke as an historical figure outside the context of the game, certainly which Ubisoft used, but the "controversy" over how he appears in game was mostly driven by a small subset of gamers, to the point that most of the reliable gaming press mostly ignored it. Hence why it is only briefly touched on. Masem (t) 04:13, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

We could use

https://time.com/6978997/assassins-creed-shadow-yasuke-controversy/

https://gamerant.com/assassins-creed-shadows-yasuke-racism-george-floyd/

https://kotaku.com/assassins-creed-shadows-yasuke-backlash-racist-elon-1851539007

https://www.themarysue.com/assassins-creed-shadows-is-taking-heat-for-all-the-wrong-reasons/

There are lots of others, but the entire George Floyd face video says it all about angry American gamers 弥助は本物の忍者だった (talk) 04:19, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Go ahead and try to add it. If there is an issue with it it can always be discussed later Trade (talk) 14:39, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

And please keep it NPOV this time Trade (talk) 15:23, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Cool totally unbiased and very truthful sources there.

I guess while we're at it we'll also keep ignoring the massive Japanese backlash against nearly every aspect of the game, not even just Ubisoft's lie about their depiction of Yasuke being based on historical fact. 2001:1970:5A1C:F700:CDF7:F8BF:8B23:4F77 (talk) 06:31, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

AC Liberation

The article wrongly states that Yasuka was "the second black protagonist in the series after Assassin's Creed Freedom Cry". This however ignores Assassin's Creed Liberation, whose protagonist is of Afro-French descent and should therefore also be considered black. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.90.180.137 (talk) 12:12, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Japanese Reaction section

IP user deleted the "Japanese Reaction section" chapter due to "irrelevance", see: https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Assassin%27s_Creed_Shadows&diff=1246335224&oldid=1246313966

I think the text meets Wikipedia standards and would like to discuss it. Xslyq (talk) 12:25, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Your “sources” are a change.org petition and a crank looking for attention 117.20.69.134 (talk) 12:49, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Can I ask if you checked the credibility of the news reporting website? It is indeed a change.org petition, but it does reflect the discussion and reaction in Japan that I described.Xslyq (talk) 13:08, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

In the report from the second source, you can see the following: The 22nd lecture of the Tochigi "Seiron" Tomo no Kai was held on the 20th at Tochigi Prefecture's Gokoku Shrine in Yohnishi-cho, Utsunomiya City. Postal scholar and writer Yosuke Naito delivered a lecture titled "Decoding the Background of the Confused International Situation." Naito addressed an online controversy surrounding a game set in Japan's Sengoku period, scheduled for release in November, and emphasized the need for accurate information to be disseminated early, as misconceptions about Japanese history could spread internationally.

In his lecture, Naito stated that "a distorted image of Yasuke is spreading in the West" and warned, "If this issue is left unaddressed, it could lead to a situation similar to the spread of the comfort women issue. We need to raise awareness early and communicate that 'this is not the truth.'"Xslyq (talk) 13:13, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

@Xslyq This warning is could also apply for yourself and giving it after only the first revert of your edit was unnecessary. And per WP:STATUSQUO and WP:BRD it should be removed until the discussion is finished, at this point it's you who's edit warring. @JeffSpaceman Not sure your revert and warning were that helpful in this situation. Nobody (talk) 13:00, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

So,The sites I cited include:Sankei Shimbun, a daily national newspaper in Japan published by the Sankei Shimbun Co., Ltd, ranking amongst the top 5 most circulated newspapers in Japan.FLASH, a weekly japan magazine published by Kobunsha, released every Tuesday. It was first launched on November 5, 1986. The official website of Satoshi Hamada, a member of the House of Councillors.Members discuss issues of national policy, oversee government actions, and represent the interests of the people at a national level.Xslyq (talk) 13:03, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

This was intended to be the reply to 117.20.69.134. Sorry for the confusion.Xslyq (talk) 13:30, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Don't know about the first two, but the personal website of a House of Councillors Member doesn't count as reliable. See WP:SPS. Nobody (talk) 13:56, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Sankei Shimbun is a nationalist publication that has engaged in WW2 revisionism, war crime denial and denial of comfort women. 117.20.69.134 (talk) 19:52, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Sorry about that, I just wanted to alert this user to the consequences of edit warring. I was trying to be helpful with pointing them towards WP:3RR and other policies, but I can see where you're coming from regarding my revert and warning. JeffSpaceman (talk) 13:20, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

If I may chime in? I believe a satisfactory compromise here would be to fold part of the Japanese reaction section into the protagonist controversy section, keeping the "Due to perceived disrespect toward Japanese history..." and excluding the politician's response, since as per what @1AmNobody24 pointed out, the source provided for that is a biased blog post. This would probably fit best underneath Ubisoft's acknowledgement.

Does this sound good to all? Sirocco745 (talk) 02:30, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

I still have issues with using nationalist publications as a source but fine 117.20.69.134 (talk) 02:34, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

sure, sounds good. However, the government did investigate and respond. I'm curious if this source meets Wikipedia's standards: https://screenrant.com/assassins-creed-shadows-japanese-government-investigation-controversy /

Also, here's the government's response:

https://www.sankei.com/article/20240724-WTXDURJJXJAK7DGLOI6HQMTIIY/

The Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology responded, "Regarding the potential harmful effects of home video games on children, in general terms, careful consideration is required when content is suspected to be contrary to public order and morals."

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs stated, "Since the issue pertains to games and is unrelated to diplomacy, we are unable to respond."Xslyq (talk) 09:32, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Well, we can use the sankei article with the government's response. Even though the paper is biased, everyone in life has their ideals that they stick by, including the politicians that made the response. While they may not represent a neutral point of view, they represent a point of view that shouldn't be ignored and deserves at least a mention. Sirocco745 (talk) 22:53, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Came back a few days later to see how this is going, and it looks to me like the article is in a much better place now! Thanks for compromising and getting this sorted out, guys! :D Sirocco745 (talk) 06:06, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

It should be noted that Sankei has published a series of articles outright denying the Nanking Massacre, and is very far from a reliable source. Symphony Regalia (talk) 01:38, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Not only is the proposed section undue and gossipy (not what Wikipedia is for), but the sources are also of poor quality.

It would reduce the quality of the article. Symphony Regalia (talk) 01:35, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't think this is a very constructive reason, especially not one that justifies the removal of large amounts of content.

For the purpose of this article, the news cited does reflect the sentiments of some Japanese citizens. Moreover, the government did respond.Gossipy and quality are also weak reasons.

I also need to point out thatYour first attempted removal was made without discussion

Xslyq (talk) 04:49, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

RfC:Should Assassin's Creed Shadows retain the Re-enactment flag controversy and Japanese reaction?

Currently, there are attempt to remove Assassin's Creed Shadows' Re-enactment flag controversy and Japanese reaction.

Based on previous discussions and text, Should Assassin's Creed Shadows retain the Re-enactment flag controversy and Japanese reaction?Xslyq (talk) 05:46, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Please respond only once with either Support or Oppose, and include an explanatory statement. To maintain clarity, do not reply to other editors' statements in these sections. Any back-and-forth discussion should be reserved for the Discussion section. Thank you!Xslyq (talk) 09:00, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Support retain

1. It's pretty clear that this is a major part of the game's coverage right now, and there's no reason to not include it. There are reliable sources discussing it, it's clearly not trivia and very relevant, so it seems good to me. Note that this vote is about whether or not the section should simply exist or not, and I'm not really keeping track of whatever is going on in the discussion above this one. λ NegativeMP1 07:52, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Both the backlash from Yasuke's inclusion as well as the spillover on both this article and the Yasuke page as a result of the so-called anti-woke crowd is clearly non-trivial and there's been a lot of talk as well as formal commentary about it. This isn't like in let's say Mafia III where the mere inclusion of a Black lead character as well as the overarching sociopolitical commentary in the game generated some furor on Steam but eventually dissipated into certain obscurity. God of War Ragnarök did have a bit of a DEI row with a Black supporting character in a Norse setting but even that pales in comparison to what poor Yasuke had to endure with the game he is set to appear in. Blake Gripling (talk) 08:45, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
3. No real proper reason not to include it. While the sources from which the section takes its information may have a history of bias and such, if we excluded all information based on our own biases and whether a source aligned with them or not, then Wikipedia would be a constant edit war between literally everyone. I support keeping this section. It's relevant to the game's reception and Ubisoft, it comes from a group of people relevant to the subject (Japanese people being vocal about their culture and what they believe to be acceptable portrayals of it), and 90,000 people signing an online petition plus a government response can hardly be considered trivial. Sirocco745 (talk) 09:38, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose retain

Oppose. This RfC has very misleading wording. This does not appear to be about retaining, but rather about a proposed addition on your behalf[1] that was contested by other editors. You were warned to wait for discussion[2], which you subsequently ignored[3].

As called out by multiple editors above[4] your proposed addition has a number of problems including poor quality sources, biased self-publishing, and WP:UNDUE weight. In particular one of the sources is an opinion piece on a website that has published a series of articles denying the Nanking Massacre. The others appear to be self-published blogs with clear political angles (including one that looks to be a personal Wordpress blog with a hotmail email address in the header)[5]. Not only that, but you are attributing an anonymous change.org petition to Japanese people in a way that is not supported by any sourcing at all (not even the unreliable sourcing above) since it concerns a petition that was open to the entirety of the global internet population, which brings severe WP:OR and WP:V violations.

This comes across as POV pushing and there isn't really a policy argument for a dedicated "X Reaction" section (WP:NOTGOSSIP, WP:CSECTION not withstanding), and it would result in major WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE concerns. Anything that becomes notable on its own can easily be represented in other sections. There is significantly more material published in French (and by actual reliable sources unlike the above), yet we have no "French Reaction", nor do we have an "American Reaction", etc. Symphony Regalia (talk) 09:18, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose There is hardly any controversy, besides highly WP:FRINGE sources and random X users who are angry that a real historical figure is being used in a game. It's sufficient for one or two sentences of discussion, but we shouldn't be giving serious credence to the idea that people should not be able to write the story they want - with someone based on actual samurai Yasuke no less - because someone is mad online, otherwise Wikipedia risks being WP:PROFRINGE. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 09:47, 25 September 2024 (UTC)