Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard

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RfC OurCampaigns

Currently, OurCampaigns is listed as an unreliable source. Should it also be deprecated or even blacklisted to prevent its continued use and allow for mass removal? Wowzers122 (talk) 18:10, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

There are currently nearly 4,000 instances of it being cited as a source on Wikipedia, not including map files that list it as their source in the description. The site's FAQ says:

OurCampaigns is an internet community formed in 2002 to discuss politics and elections. It is a collaborative website which allows users to post messages and links, earn points by predicting the outcomes of future elections, and enter historical election information. The website is built by the members as they enter site content.

When you create an account, you are able to post messages. With good solid participation in this area, the website owner (Randy) or others with high enough access may increase your access to more functions of site creation. This will enable you to help make the website more comprehensive and useful for other people who are interested in politics. This is the true power of the website.

OurCampaigns (OC) is also a web community. The users become a small e-family, which means that family dynamics come into play in the discussions. Be quick to forgive, slow to take offense, and quick to admit an error. Most of all, enjoy your time at OC!

Previous discussions:

• Jan 2009: Post suggesting it be removed from all articles
• Sep 2010: "looks like an open Wiki"
• July 2014: points to request for blacklist, declined because "site is dead"
• Dec 2017: brief discussion
• May 2020: discussion that leans toward reliable for election results, but some reservations stated
• Feb 2021: RfC that elapsed; consensus seems to indicate generally unreliable, disagreement over blacklisting; archived without closure
• April 2021: RfC that put OurCampaigns on WP:RSPS as "generally unreliable"

To me, it should be blacklisted. I used to be okay with its inclusion in articles, even adding it to articles myself, as there's not many sources for older elections (actually there is and I'll get to that) and they provide data sources for most of their pages. Recently, I was gifted United States Congressional elections, 1788-1997: the official results of the elections of the 1st through 105th Congresses by a fellow wikipedian, which I have started replacing OurCampaigns with since its actually reliable. The first article I've done this with is the 1830–31 United States House of Representatives elections (which cut it down by 13,000+ bytes, yippe). To my disappointment, the book doesn’t include county returns, which was shocking because most OurCampaigns pages cite that book as their only source, yet also include a county map. For example, the page for the IL At-Large election cites only that book as its source but somehow also has a map. Where did they get that information? For all I know, it could've been completely madeup.

In addition to its maps lacking any source, OurCampaigns frequently gets information wrong. In some cases, it’s a minor discrepancy, with numbers being slightly off, but in others, it's egregious. Again, using the IL At-Large page as an example, there are two more candidates listed than are reported in the source: "James Dunkin" and "Write-In Nonpartisan." Where they come from? They're not in the source provided.

Another egregious example is with the 13 trials for MA Essex North. In the first trial, the book lists Caleb Cushing as running as an independent against the National Republican candidate, before becoming the National Republican candidate in the later trials (the page again has the book as its only source and this time doesn't even incldude a page number. It's page 97 for the first trial and then page 100 for the other 12.) And on the MA Bristol page for the first trial, the page gives Russel Freeman 48%, when he is only given 42% in the book.

My final example for its blacklisting is a now-blocked (thankfully) IP editor that was going around replacing reliable sources with OurCampaign and Dave Leip's Atlas of U.S. Presidential Elections (who I will get to in a separate discussion for another time) sources. Specifically, I'd like to mention this edit to the 1864 United States presidential election in Kansas where Cheeseborough is shown as a separate candidate for president from the two candidates, like on the OurCampaigns and Atlas sources, even though he was only a candidate for the electoral college on the National Union ticket.

There's really no reason to use this source. If an editor needs information for an election article, they should seek out reliable sources, maybe even those cited by OurCampaigns. For election data, I recommend A New Nation Votes, a website created by Phil Lampi and run by the American Antiquarian Society, for any election before 1826 (it includes county returns). For any election from 1838-1914, the Tribune almanac and political register (it includes county returns). The varius Congressional Quarterly's Guide to US elections such as the ones on archive.org (whenever they get it working again). For any gubernatorial election, Dubin's US Gubernatorial Elections, 1776-1860 (also on archive.org) (it includes county returns). I have access to Dubin's US Gubernatorial Elections, 1861-1911, United States Presidential Elections, 1788-1860, along with US Congressional Elections, 1788-1997, and I know someone with Party Affiliations in the State Legislatures: A Year by Year Summary, 1796-2006, most of which include county returns and that I can send you pages of through discord. Wowzers122 (talk) 18:10, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

• Blacklisting or deprecation seems overkill. It's already on WP:RSPS as generally-unreliable. It's a user-generated source, just like Wikipedia, IMDB, Discogs, etc. It's easily available online, and lazy amateur Wikipedians are of course more likely to cite freely available user-generated sites than a history book by some forgotten scholar. Replace with better sources when possible. But unless you personally have a grudge with the site, I see no reason for further escalation. --Animalparty! (talk) 02:02, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
  • +1. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:56, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Yes, I have a grudge against websites that have consistently provided incorrect information, something OurCampaigns has done multiple times beyond the examples given here, including reporting incorrect numbers, falsifying candidacies, and including unsourced maps. I don't believe we should allow people to continually add potentially incorrect information to articles and reward their laziness. I understand that most editors don't have access to non-online sources, which is why I am willing to share mine and have provided links to online freely available election data from archives like the Internet Archive, as well as dedicated, professionally run sites like A New Nation Votes and Ballotpedia. Wowzers122 (talk) 21:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Are people actively adding them to articles still? if so, I suppose adding it to the edit filter might be appropriate. Alpha3031 (t • c) 05:22, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, It should be blocked. If it is't then people will keep using it, instead of other sources. Tinynanorobots (talk) 15:59, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I would support deprecation. I have encountered plenty of inaccurate information on OurCampaigns in the past, including outright fictional candidates and fake sources. It has the same problem many other UGC sites have, which is a serious lack of quality controls and an ease for vandalism, especially in lesser-known races. Deprecation solves this problem and prevents it from spreading and we've historically deprecated other UCG sources with a higher likelihood for having false information. ThadeusOfNazereth(he/him)^{Talk to Me!} 22:32, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Cheung et al in Archives of Disease in Childhood

At Cass Review we are having a dispute about this source:

Cheung CR, Abbruzzese E, Lockhart E, et al Gender medicine and the Cass Review: why medicine and the law make poor bedfellows Archives of Disease in Childhood Published Online First: 14 October 2024. doi: 10.1136/archdischild-2024-327994

https://adc.bmj.com/content/early/2024/10/15/archdischild-2024-327994

Some editors have argued that because one of the co-authors, Evgenia Abbruzzese, is also the co-founder of the Society for Evidence-Based Gender Medicine, the source should be regarded as FRINGE. Is this correct? FirstPrimeOfApophis (talk) 09:34, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Short answer on the specific question of whether one odd ball amongst the authors immediately disqualifies a source, no it doesn't. That's not to say there couldn't be other issue with the paper, which would require comments from edits with better WP:MEDRS knowledge, but just because one odd ball was amongst the authors doesn't immediately mean their odd ball believes are in the paper. The other authors, and the editors, may well have smooth them out or ensured they stayed within more normal academic ranges.

There are scientists and academics who believe all kinds of things, including opinions that would controversial or laughy in their own fields, who yet still publish well regarded work in that field because those specific works don't involve the controversial opinions they hold. So disqualifying a whole work by multiple author because of one of the authors is dubious doesn't work.

Again I'm not saying that the paper is reliable, but that that argument against it is flawed. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:39, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

An author being blatantly out there on the fringe is a red flag that we can't ignore. What exactly we do with that information is up for debate, but "neglect it" is not a feasible option. XOR'easter (talk) 21:08, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

XOR'easter I'm not sure how this answers the question.

• Do you believe Abbruzese's participation alone disqualifies this source?
• If "yes" can you address ActivelyDisinterested's remarks above, specifically There are scientists and academics who believe all kinds of things, including opinions that would controversial or laughy in their own fields, who yet still publish well regarded work in that field because those specific works don't involve the controversial opinions they hold and why you think that doesn't hold here.

FirstPrimeOfApophis (talk) 08:27, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

As an aside, does anyone know if Abbruzzese has published other works besides this one outside of SEGM circles? Whether other researchers have commented on said body of work, that would be a good indicator of publish well regarded work, but I'm having trouble filtering out the other E. Abbruzzeses like Elvira etc from Evgenia. Alpha3031 (t • c) 08:56, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't regard Abbruzzese a reliable source, but they are one of seven authors for this article. I would suggest looking to the quality of the article, rather than fixating on one author. As XOR'easter points out it should be part of any discussion, but it's not the whole discussion. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:49, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I am aware, it just would have been nice to have a body of work to look at whether it is indeed well regarded, but I'm to lazy to actually look any of them up, especially for the authors that actually do have publications. Though, there are only 5 authors, you might be counting the number of affiliations? That got me a bit too. Alpha3031 (t • c) 20:28, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

1) Addressing the other authors: none have ever published any research on transgender care or have any experience with it

2) Addressing a glaring issue with the source: right off the bat they misrepresent trans healthcare in the US while situating the Yale Review in the same way SEGM does (ie, framing their position as more accepted than it is)

• Ultimately, these cases hinge on judges deciding between two conflicting perspectives. One side, argued by transgender advocacy groups and supported by the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH)22 and the Endocrine Society,23 asserts that medical transition for minors is backed by sufficient evidence, making restrictions unnecessary and discriminatory. On the other side, some states claim the practice is experimental, harmful to youth and that the constitution allows them to protect citizens from unsafe medical treatments.
• They say "transgender advocacy groups", WPATH, and the Endocrine Society support it and states don't - they don't mention every single medical association in the US has opposed these bans - for example the American Medical Association, American Academy of Pediatrics, American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, American Urological Association, American Society for Reproductive Medicine, American College of Physicians, and American Association of Clinical Endocrinology.[1] Not to mention the American Psychological Association[2], American Psychiatric Association and more.[3]
• It doesn't mention all the states doing so have done so at the behest of Christian Right anti-LGBT groups like the Alliance Defending Freedom, American College of Pediatricians, and, shocking nobody, SEGM.

3) Relatedly, they extend this critique to arguing the authors of the Yale review are politically motivated as they testify against bans on gender-affirming care - ignoring that this is supported by all major medical orgs in the US.

4) The Yale Review called out multiple false statements the Cass Review made (ie: "most trans kids grow out of it") - this supposed review of their critique fails to address a single one.

5) SEGM is treating this review as a total refutation of the Yale Report, claiming the Cass Review is holy and untouchable while hoping U.S. medical organizations and prestigious universities will resist the powerful special interests who have leveraged these institutions' highly-regarded names and hard-earned reputations to shield the practice of youth gender transition (emphasis added)[4] Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 15:32, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

To be clear, I am only asking specifically as to whether Abbruzese's participation as an author is enough to disqualify the source as FRINGE, according to current WP policy. I am not currently asking about any other proposed reasons to exclude the source. FirstPrimeOfApophis (talk) 18:24, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

If the question is specifically about FRINGE, FRINGEN would seem to be a noticeboard more suited to the question at hand. Alpha3031 (t • c) 20:25, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Outside of assessing a news source in general, where we look at the pattern of reliability of that news source.

When we look for reliability of specific articles as references, we don't generally evaluate articles only in isolation (or as you asked, only on the premise of if an authors involvement means we don't also may have other reasons to judge an article for neutrality and reliability), but also in the WP:RS#Reliability in specific contexts/Wikipedia:Inaccuracy#Appendix: Reliability in the context for which it is being planned for inclusion to better assess, which is why @Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist posted additional relevant information for this particular article. Raladic (talk) 20:26, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

As an(other) aside, even if a source were FRINGE it wouldn't necessarily be outright excluded, as long as it is put in perspective relative to the views of the entire encompassing field. Whether a source is suitable always depends on how it is used. Alpha3031 (t • c) 20:32, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think you can isolate the issues like that. The issue with Abbruzese's participation is whether it impacts the quality of the source, right? So if the source is of poor quality in ways indicative of SEGM's WP:FRINGE influence, that would suggest that Abbruzese's participation was in fact a problem, right? Loki (talk) 18:29, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

To elaborate on what I said on the talk page: while one of the authors being dodgy is not always enough to discredit a peer-reviewed paper, it can be sometimes. It is heavily dependent on context, though. So for instance: if a Pioneer Fund person published some research on race and intelligence I'd consider that basically disqualifying by itself. But even though James Watson has made some significantly racist comments, that doesn't make the original Watson and Crick paper any less credible.

For this reason I'd like to hold off on this source until its credibility is clearer. I'm not saying it's definitely bad, but I'm quite suspicious of it. Loki (talk) 18:25, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

The other authors hold some important positions, but have varying or little amounts of publishing in the area, for me that's more an issue than one author being a crank. However that one of the authors is a crank as well other issues makes your suspicious understandable. Seeing how other academic sources respond to the paper is likely a good idea. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:31, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I don’t think it’s actually a problem that the authors aren’t specialists in transgender healthcare — if you read Cheung et al, it’s really responding to criticisms of the research and medical evaluation practices in the Cass Review and the York systematic reviews, which are a higher level question that experienced researchers in any medical field would be qualified to comment on. This also makes Cheung et al part of a broader consensus rather than a single fringey source: it’s concurring with and defending a very large and high profile scholarly work in the field.

I think it would be wrong to present Cheung as a slam-dunk final word on the issue but the field of youth gender medicine is in the midst of deep, genuine controversy among the best reliable sources. That controversy should be presented neutrally to readers; the effort to decide which side is ‘fringe’ and suppress all sources favourable to it is highly inappropriate in this context. Frank Forfolk (talk) 22:00, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

No, this is not a fringe source. As others have pointed out, the contributions of one questionable author, who isn't even the lead author, do not invalidate the contents of a paper, particularly when it is published and peer-reviewed in a mainstream journal.

This subject is in the midst of a paradigm shift from consensus-based to evidence-based medicine. As of right now there are two competing mainstream POVs. Both vigorously attempt to refute each other, but NPOV demands our articles represent them both. It is not the role of editors here to pick the correct POV. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 12:22, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

RFC Jerusalem Post

The reliability of the Jerusalem Post is:

Option 1: Generally reliable

Option 2: Additional considerations

Option 3: Generally unreliable

Option 4: Deprecate

RFCBEFORE. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:35, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Survey (Jerusalem Post)

• Option 4: the Jerusalem Post's coverage is extremely biased and is unfortunately extensively used throughout Wikipedia articles, to cite a few examples on these biases:

• JP has been repeatedly propagating a false claim in its articles in recent months, calling the Lebanese Ministry of Public Health, "Hezbollah-run," despite it not being affiliated with them and the fact that it is headed by an independent minister. [5] [6] [7].
• On 12 October 2023, JP published an article that it had confirmed seeing evidence for babies that had been burnt and decapitated during the Kfar Aza massacre that is still online with no retraction despite being debunked.
• JP propagated another false claim last year that a dead Palestinian child was a doll, which, although it retracted and apologized for, also puts into question its fact-checking processes. [8]
• In 2020, Reuters revealed that the Jerusalem Post allowed an online deepfake to write bylines smearing a Palestinian couple over their activism. [9] Makeandtoss (talk) 11:43, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Have we just not come out of a discussion about this? Slatersteven (talk) 13:59, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

That's what is being referred to as RFCBEFORE. Selfstudier (talk) 14:18, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

So do we need another so soon? We can't keep discussing this every month or so. Slatersteven (talk) 14:19, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 Like nearly every other source......Options 1, 3 & 4 represent faulty over-generalizations. North8000 (talk) 18:17, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Option #1Under the current Wikipedia context Option #1 is the best match. My original Option #2 choice is for after we reconfigure to recognize that every source is option #2. North8000 (talk) 21:29, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• Option 1. Bias isn't unreliability. Nothing has been presented that shows any other RS that question the Jerusalem Post. Retractions are good actually. Andre🚐 19:09, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1 per Andre; also per Slater, wasn't there just an RfC about this? Kcmastrpc (talk) 19:13, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1 I would need stronger stuff than this to think otherwise. Cambalachero (talk) 19:54, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option 4, as they still have clearly false statements on Oct 7 "decapitation babies" still online, after they have been debunked for over a year, Huldra (talk) 22:37, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  You previously advocated that the Electronic Intifada shouldn't be deprecated because it's similar to the Jerusalem Post,[10] but now that the analogy isn't beneficial you say the Jerusalem Post should be deprecated.

  Specifically, you said that for the Tehran Times or Jerusalem Post: some areas you can presume them to be correct, others not. What changed that made you think the Jerusalem Post should be banned in virtually all circumstances, instead of just an Option 2? Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 05:36, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

  but now that the analogy isn't beneficial you say the Jerusalem Post should be deprecated. If EI and JP are indeed comparable, the community consensus that EI is GUNREL should presumably apply to JP. I'm not aware of anything on EI as egregiously misleading and uncorrected as reports of decapitated babies, so I see no hypocrisy in Huldra's stance.

  However, I have used JP in my editing and made what I hope have been valuable contributions using it, so I would be more inclined to argue that both are Option 2 (or, to be consistent, that both are Option 3) and that particular details reported by either source might be more unreliable on a case-by-case basis. To me, stories like the beheaded babies are less a black mark on any particular source and moreso an indication that, particularly in instances where systemic bias is at play, we ought to think of even the most reliable sources differently, along the lines of @North8000's comment. Also a reminder that sources regarded as perennially unreliable like EI and The Grayzone can be a voice of reason in certain contexts where the mainstream media isn't doing its job. Unbandito (talk) 03:27, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  I don't believe they are comparable. EI has promoted the conspiracy theory that most civilians that died on October 7th were killed by Israel. [11] But the person I'm originally replying to would have a much stronger point if they explained how the standards applied to EI can also apply to the Jerusalem Post. Right now, I see a proposal to deprecate based on a single story. That's not a standard that has been applied to any other publication onwiki.

  With respect to your position, what type of additional considerations would you recommend to editors using the Jerusalem Post?

  I agree with both your and North8000's position that all sources need to be considered in context. But in the current Wikipedia climate, Option 2 means "marginally reliable" or "additional considerations". If the only considerations are the same as those that would be applied to a generally reliable source, then Option 1 is the correct choice. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 21:57, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  Given the context of the beheaded babies story and the example you bring up, I would say that JP and EI should be treated with special caution when making extraordinary claims that cut in the same direction as their bias, as they’ve demonstrated a willingness to drop their journalistic standards in the extraordinary circumstances of the 7 October attacks.

  However, I do see a difference between these two missteps. Following the publication of that WaPo article, use of the Hannibal Directive on 7 October has been confirmed by Al Jazeera and Haaretz reporting, lending some credence to EI’s claims. I would not use EI to justify putting the claim that most of the Israelis killed were killed by friendly fire, but they are correct to say that significant aspects of the attack remain unexplained in the absence of an independent investigation, which Israel has prevented. The position that EI’s claims are a conspiracy theory is itself a partisan claim for which there is a shrinking body of evidence. JP’s claims of beheaded babies on the other hand have been thoroughly debunked and will almost certainly stay that way. If anything, JP’s error is more egregious. EI’s position may yet be proven true or debunked by future evidence. Unbandito (talk) 05:39, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  OK. While I don't agree with most of your comment, I agree that the Jerusalem Post should be treated with caution when making extraordinary claims in the direction of its bias. That's my understanding of WP:GREL and the source can still be added to RSP as generally reliable with such a note about what its biases are. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 17:25, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  I don’t necessarily disagree with that, though I wouldn’t rank JP as option 1 given the reasons others have provided here related to their unwillingness to issue corrections and their lying about verifying information they reported. I think JP should be regarded as one of many sources that we triangulate with others to reach the closest approximation of the truth. Consequently, I think any positive ranking of JP would warrant a re-evaluation of other partisan sources of the opposite persuasion (like EI) to ensure they are being assessed consistently. Unbandito (talk) 18:21, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  Huh? EI is GUNREL. EI is not the equal and opposite of JPost. Andre🚐 20:04, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  That’s a circular argument. The previous designation of EI is not itself evidence that the designation is accurate. I’m suggesting that the evidence brought forth here about JP should cause us to reassess EI. If JP is not considered GUNREL, EI probably shouldn’t be. I’m going to leave it at that to avoid going further off topic. Unbandito (talk) 21:53, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  I think your argument conflates bias with reliability. EI should and is not reliable for facts, and is also biased. JPost is generally reliable for facts, and also has a bias. Andre🚐 22:00, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  You're welcome to do so, if you believe whatever consensus is reached at this discussion is contradictory to the previous one. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 13:42, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 - it's a cut below Times of Israel and Haaretz, several cuts above Arutz Sheva and i24 for example, and if it is the only source for some claim then asking for more or better sources is totally reasonable imo. But still a mostly reliable source and citeable as such. nableezy - 22:40, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
• I glanced over a couple of JP articles while doing research for #IDF claims Gaza reporters are terrorists; reporters and their employer say no and was not impressed by its quality; it seemed to be parroting the government position without qualification or critical thinking. But I dislike how results from discussions like this are often used to purge sources from articles in a manner similarly lacking critical thinking, so I'll refrain from voting. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 23:16, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Option 1. The fourth Jewish source at RSN in recent memory. I'll repeat that it's bizarre that when the previous RfC on an Israeli or Jewish source closes, a new one quickly begins. Hezbollah runs Lebanon and no other publication was previously tricked by a deepfake student. The decapitated babies story is false but was widely picked up by the Western media at the time. As OP said about an Arab source: All medias have biases, but that doesn't necessarily affect general reliability, unless it has been consistently false or misleading; Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 05:24, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Sources do not have religions so there is no such thing as a "Jewish source." This is a bizzare framing of events that shifts the focus away from the Jerusalem Post's misinformation.

Yes, as I previously mentioned, biases do not affect reliability; but as demonstrated above, the Jerusalem Post is both biased and unreliable. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:19, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

If editors are only banning sources aligned with one viewpoint, this can skew the POV of entire topic areas. This occurs at RSN because we examine sources in isolation. I'm framing the discussion in this way because only sources with a Jewish or Zionist or pro-Israel viewpoint are being declared unreliable in recent months and I believe that is negatively affecting the Israel and Palestine topic area.

Specifically, you haven't shown the Jerusalem Post is "consistently false". You've shown they were fooled by deepfake technology in 2020 when deepfakes were new. You've shown they reported on a decapitated babies story most Western media outlets also reported on. You've also shown they retract false stories. Finally, your biggest point is that they call the Lebanese Health Ministry "Hezbollah-run" when the government of Lebanon is controlled by Hezbollah, and many hospitals in Southern Lebanon are run by Hezbollah social services.[12]

In this topic area, where most media sources blamed Israel for bombing Al-Ahli Arab Hospital and then immediately had to retract, some level of mistakes are tolerable. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 15:09, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

The government of Lebanon is not controlled by Hezbollah, they are a part of a coalition government and members of that party hold the ministries of public works and labor. The public health ministry is headed by a member of the Future Movement, a Sunni party, not Hezbollah. Your claim about "only sources with a Jewish or Zionist or pro-Israel viewpoint are being declared unreliable in recent months" ignores a number of sources that have been deemed unreliable that are not any of those things, and the conflation of Jewish and Zionist if made by a non-Zionist would draw outrage for antisemitism. But Al Mayadeen was deprecated, Anadolu Agency GUNREL, CounterPunch GUNREL, The Cradle deprecated, The Electronic Intifada GUNREL, The Grayzone deprecated, Mondoweiss other considerations (you opened that arguing for deprecation), Press TV deprecated. The claim that "Jewish sources" are being targeted is absurd. If anything, your history in these discussions show that you consistently oppose sources that are not pro-Zionist, and repeatedly attempt to deflect in discussions about sources that are pro-Zionist by claiming it is an attack on "Jewish sources". It be great if that stopped. nableezy - 15:43, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

@Nableezy: You said yourself Hezbollah is part of the government. They also have an effective veto power in Lebanese politics and have more power than you acknowledge, including providing basic services in areas Israel is bombing. [13] The Jerusalem Post is being hyperbolically biased in a way that is impossible to cite on Wikipedia. We should apply the same standard we apply to all sources. If Mondoweiss is going to be Option 2, I can live with that so long as the standards are consistently applied.

Specifically, the standard for deprecation we've developed as Wikipedia editors that we should focus on how a source is used in articles. In the cases of Mondoweiss, I advocated for deprecation and was proven wrong because there wasn't the track record of demonstrable harm that deprecation would prevent, as well as a focus on opinion pieces. The most I could show was that it promoted October 7th denialism. The Jerusalem Post has not met that standard because "Hezbollah-run health ministry" is arguably true and isn't citable onwiki.

The reason why I mention the Jerusalem Post is both Jewish and Zionist is that it regularly covers Jewish issues outside of Israel in the diaspora section.

None of the double standard criticism applies to you. I largely agree with your reasoning that the Jerusalem Post is worse than the Times of Israel/Haaretz (those are the best Israeli newspapers). I disagree mainly because WP:MREL doesn't mean "mostly reliable source", it means marginally reliable. Without clear delineation of when it is reliable/unreliable, editors will try to mass-remove the Jerusalem Post from articles if they think it's being used in an inappropriate context (like BLPs for Mondoweiss). A WP:GREL outcome would not mean you're obligated to accept it for all statements of fact, but that it's "mostly reliable" as you've said.

What I'm pointing out is since April, we've had RfCs on the ADL+Jewish Chronicle+Jerusalem Post, and there are editors that take different positions on the Jerusalem Post in different discussions.

I would oppose the introduction of "Hezbollah-run health ministry" to articles especially given the precedent set at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Gaza Health Ministry qualifier—it's technically true but doesn't have much context. That being said, nobody has seriously proposed to use that qualifier and I don't see how biased language makes the Jerusalem Post unreliable. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 17:37, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

No, it is technically not true, it is not arguably true in any way. Hezbollah does not run the health ministry in Lebanon, full stop. I didnt vote to deprecate. I only objected to your repeated claims of targeting "Jewish sources" which is demonstrably untrue. And I think that diversion is both untrue and, to be honest, outrageous in that it implicitly claims a racist motivation in questioning any of these sources reliability. If somebody is attacking a source because it is a "Jewish source" that should be block worthy. But as far as I can tell nobody is, making the accusation itself what is block worthy. nableezy - 17:55, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

It's possible to have unconscious bias and that is not a blockworthy offence. Arguing that there is systemic bias in our treatment of sources is not an accusation of deliberately racist motivations on the part of individual editors. It is effectively impossible to counter systemic bias if I am not allowed to acknowledge its existence.

What I originally said still stands: the pattern of examining sources in isolation at WP:RSN is causing systemic bias issues because we cannot determine if we are treating sources differently depending on their affiliation.

Examining sources by contextualizing them with other sources will more effectively evaluate the reliability of the Jerusalem Post by reducing the impact of bias.

In this case, I contrasted with Al-Jazeera and asked whether the Jerusalem Post has met the consistently false or misleading standard applied there. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 02:54, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

There is no such thing either; Haaretz is an Israeli Jewish-owned RS publication that is highly critical of Israel, even critical of the Jerusalem Post, so this argument does not hold to scrutiny. Being "pro-Israel" is not opposed to being critical of Israel; on the contrary, many pro-Israel sources are highly critical of Israel's policies because they care about Israel. As for the decapitated babies debunked claim, the difference is that unlike the Jerusalem Post, western media did not claim to see evidence for this in their reporting. As for the claim about ministry being Hezbollah-run, this is an extraordinary claim and a personal opinion that is not supported by any reliable source. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:33, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

And the Jerusalem Post is highly critical of Haaretz[14], a publication whose owner said Israel imposes apartheid, that Hamas is full of freedom fighters, and that Israel should be sanctioned to bring about a Palestinian state. Haaretz is not a replacement for the Jerusalem Post, which is the main right-wing newspaper in Israel. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 03:42, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Great, then clearly, conflicting editorial policies and opinions of newspapers have nothing to do with religion nor ethnicity, so we can move on from that argument. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:36, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• Option 1 Seems like a reliable source and was recently RFC'd/discussed. No source is ever perfect and so all things considered, this is reasonable. Chess makes a good point that after a failed RFC against similar sources another pops up. Seems like agenda driven basis to depreciate such sources at any cost. Ramos1990 (talk) 06:12, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1/2 per Nableezy and North8000. All sources on this topic are problematic and should be used with caution and this is somewhere below the strongest sources but nowhere near the worst usable sources, so I would treat it similarly to Palestine Chronicle (maybe a little better given it does more of its own reporting). Re the specific charges, "Hezbollah-run" is not that big a deal; the babies story is problematic but we don't know the full truth; the doll story shows reason for caution but was corrected; the deepfake story is trivial (several publications were similarly taken in and JP removed it). We need to be consistent in our treatment of I/P sources, and exercise skepticism and triangulation with all of them. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:02, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

  I just want to say about "the doll story" that I think it shows more than just a reason to be cautious, as what they said about faulty sourcing for their reason for retracting does not stand up. The only source in the story was an unverified tweet claiming it was a doll. That to me shows a willingness to promote unverified material as propaganda. This was not the case of an actual source giving the JPost wrong information, this was them having such a low standard that some guy with 1100 twitter followers was treated as an authoritative source to make outlandish claims and present them as fact. Yes they took it down after it was widely mocked for putting out a false story, with proof of the lie having been offered by the photojournalist who had taken the photo. I simply do not trust them to have verified claims that other stronger sources have not, which is what pushes it in to option 2 territory for me. nableezy - 19:14, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

• Option 1 generally and 2 for AI/IP topic area there is a fair bit of nationalistic tub thumping/the idea that every single Palestinian is a terrorist for this source so the AI/IP stuff should be treated with some caution but otherwise I would give the benefit of the doubt.Selfstudier (talk) 10:08, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

  Do you have sources to back up the claim that the Jerusalem Post promoted the idea that every single Palestinian is a terrorist? This is unsubstantiated at the moment. And why would publishing an opinion along those lines make the Jerusalem Post less reliable?

  For context, the WP:GREL Al-Jazeera has published opinion pieces directly saying "All Zionist roads lead to genocide".[15] Should Al-Jazeera also be WP:MREL on Israel and Palestine?

  Al-Jazeera's opinion editors have described Zionism, the belief that Israel should exist, as an inherently genocidal ideology. This is similar to describing the Palestinian identity as inherently terroristic.

  From my understanding after I was shot down at the Mondoweiss RfC, extreme opinions aren't what makes a source unreliable. Mondoweiss being unable to separate advocacy from news is what contributed to its WP:MREL status. Likewise, Al-Jazeera is WP:GREL because it can separate advocacy pieces into an opinion section.

  My understanding is that the Jerusalem Post would have to consistently perform advocacy in its actual news for its WP:POV to negatively affect its reliability. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 03:24, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  Don't see what AJ or Mondoweiss have to do with the JP. https://www.jpost.com/tags/palestinian-terrorism, horses mouth. Selfstudier (talk) 11:15, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  Declaring Israeli sources unreliable on Israel or Palestine based on standards Arab sources aren't held to will bias the topic area.

  Tagging articles as "Palestinian terrorism" is just pointing out that some acts of terrorism are committed by terrorism. I'm also unsure how an article tag would be cited beyond calling specific act of terrorism Palestinian. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 14:26, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  Declaring Israeli sources unreliable on Israel or Palestine based on standards Arab sources aren't held to will bias the topic area. Instead of repeating this as if that will somehow make the accusation more credible (it doesn't, its just annoying), make your case in an appropriate place (which isn't in this discussion).

  When Israel was doing its nearly 2 year long so called operation breakwater, and arresting Palestinians in the WB every night, JP would report it next day as "x Palestinian terrorists arrested" whether they were or were not terrorists. Selfstudier (talk) 15:01, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  You haven't provided any links to specific stories falsely claiming that a Palestinian is a terrorist. That was my original ask, and if you can't provide evidence there's no use pressing further.

  Likewise, if you're not going to refute the double standard, I don't see the point of repeating myself. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 21:26, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  You are repeating yourself. Selfstudier (talk) 21:28, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  I think it's worth discouraging reproduction of JP's stylistic bias, particularly the labelling of people as terrorists, as a special consideration on its reliability. Unbandito (talk) 05:42, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  I would support this. The term "terrorist" should be substantiated by other sources (as a general rule). Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 20:20, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

• Option 1 generally, 2 for AI/IP, same reasoning as SelfStudier honestly. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 15:13, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1, per Chess. To respond to Makeandtoss, being Jewish is not solely about religion, it’s just one aspect of Jewish identity, and most Jews are secular and see their Jewishness as ethnicity/nationality/culture. I also agree that there has been a recent surge in attempts to discredit Jewish sources without real evidence, which is really troubling. HaOfa (talk) 15:42, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2 I tend to evaluate depending on what the edit is, per WP:CONTEXTMATTERS, and think no evaluation without that can be really valid except Option 2 to say that you cannot skip the context of what article content is involved. I would lean strongly towards RS from the goodnesses of it being a well-established reputable outfit with local expertise and that they have made retractions and corrections when in error - and basically everyone makes an error sometime so the handling is important - and that WP has generally regarded it as a RS to use in prior RSN. I would tend to view it as RS with POV to use in the context of the current hot war, but then I think that *all* sources should be taken as POV in the context of the current hot war. (London Times, Sydney Morning Herald, The Globe and Mail ... *all* sources.) Sort of what SelfStudier said. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 15:54, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1 per Andrevan and Chess. - GretLomborg (talk) 13:26, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1 - agree that all four are issues, but JPost is one of the oldest and largest Israeli newspapers, and we're lacking an argument for why this is qualitatively or quantitatively worse than incidents at any other major publication. The fake persona seems less severe than fake stories, which many reputable publications have had at some point - see e.g. Jayson Blair, Janet Cooke, Johann Hari. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 20:29, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1, though I could maybe be convinced toward 2 if a stronger case is presented. The decapitated babies story was a massive whiff, but I haven’t seen a pattern of outright falsified reporting otherwise. JPost certainly has a right-wing/nationalist perspective, which makes me rather uncomfortable, but as established in WP policy, bias is (unfortunately, in my view) not unreliability. The Kip ^(contribs) 19:01, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

  Wholesale opposed to 3/4, however. In both this topic area and others, I’ve seen sources currently marked GREL/MREL get away with far worse than what the opener notes - unless a stronger case is made, deprecation is beyond extreme here. The Kip ^(contribs) 19:34, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

  Important to note that unlike other news sources that reported on the decapitated babies claim, the Jerusalem Post was unique in saying that it had verified the evidence itself, so this is a major red flag and a different story. Makeandtoss (talk) 22:57, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

  Again, while awful, one severely problematic piece does not amount to the pattern of lies and/or inaccuracies required for outright GUNREL/deprecation - if it did, most of the sources we use on this site would be in that grouping. The rest of the case you’ve made effectively boils down to bias and/or items they ultimately retracted. The Kip ^(contribs) 05:19, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2/3 for Israel-Palestine, Option 1 in general. - As others have noted the Jerusalem Post is clearly biased, but I don't think that necessarily means it's unreliable. Outside of the Israel-Palestine area it may well be generally reliable. The problem is that it veers away from mere bias into making incredibly inflammatory false claims that are widely shared and never corrected. The case of "Photos of babies being burnt, decapitated confirmed" stands out in particular. They achieved almost 16 million views with this tweet and never retracted it. The article continues to be cited, sometimes by people with far-reaching influence. Detailed investigations by Haaretz, LeMonde and others continue to show that the claims the Jerusalem Post made were false, but as I write this JP has yet to retract or correct the story.
  
  The other case was the claim about a Palestinian baby who was killed being a doll. An incredibly inflammatory claim, widespread reach, continuing to be repeated and adding to the Pallywood myth. The BBC and others showed this to be false. The JP did eventually retract the story, however the author of the piece Danielle Greyman-Kennard continues to work for them to this day as their "Breaking News Writer and Editor". The same is true of the "Photos..." piece, where the author continued to work for the JP for many months afterwards.
  
  This is what makes the Jerusalem Post's coverage of Israel-Palestine stand apart from reliable sources in this topic area. Yes, they may also be biased (i.e. the Times of Israel) but they did not publish outright disinformation as verified reporting to millions of readers, then subsequently refuse to retract or correct it, let alone take action against the responsible author, when proven false by RS. Even when they do issue a retraction, the author in question remains an editor in good standing.
  
  These are two especially high profile cases, but disinformation and outright falsehoods find their way into all of their output in this subject area. They wrote about Sinwar's wife having a 32,000 dollar Birkin bag - contrast this coverage with how Haaretz reported it, noting that many pointed out that the claim about the bag was in fact false (https://archive.ph/G3aAM)). This marks the difference between a reliable source in this topic area, and an unreliable tabloid outlet.
  
  So, again, option 2/3 for Israel-Palestine. Smallangryplanet (talk) 12:37, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  Re the claim about the bag was in fact false, you linked to Haaretz, but they themselves don't really say it was false; they're just quoting speculation from random Twitter users. JPost is similarly quoting speculation in the other direction, reflecting their opposite biases. Ynetnews covers both sides with some non-Twitter sources, though those pointing out Hermes' relationship-driven sales model seem to ignore the second-hand market. Anyway JPost doesn't exactly take a view on the matter themselves, except in the WP:HEADLINE which we wouldn't use. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 20:47, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  @XDanielx JPost repeated the claim as fact in the headline and published POV as if it were fact in the article, it also published a piece the following day stating it as fact that she was "carrying a luxury Hermès Birkin handbag worth approximately $32,000". This is institutional for the JP, and it goes beyond mere bias that we see with other outlets. It's a systemic disregard for verifiable facts and accuracy in pursuit of political aims. They do this for everything in this topic area, from a handbag to "Photos of babies being burnt, decapitated confirmed" and "Al Jazeera posts blurred doll, claims it to be a dead Palestinian baby". As many have pointed out, even when shown to be platforming misinformation (with serious consequences!) they take no actions to prevent it and continue to employ and publish the people responsible. If the initial article about the handbag was similarly quoting speculation in the other direction, they almost immediately doubled down, so they appear to be perfectly willing to take speculation as verified fact. Smallangryplanet (talk) 09:35, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  I think you need to have third party sources discussing the JPosts issues rather than trying to build a case yourself. The reason I think the babies story is so egregious is the shoddy sourcing policy at play and it was brought up by other sources as amplifying propaganda. For example in an article on false claims in the war the BBC singles out JPost among media organizations for amplifying such a false claim. Everything else it talks about is social media, and when a newspaper is being compared to twitter for spreading false information, that is something to take note of. nableezy - 13:46, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  The Forward has investigated and published why JPost is unreliable. It's pretty clear that it's a pay-to-publish model and has been since 2004. CoolAndUniqueUsername (talk) 19:22, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  That source points out the Post denied the allegations. And adds that: Its disclosure for paid articles comes in a brief italicized line at the bottom of these posts: “This article was written in a cooperation with” and the advertiser’s name. So unless you see something with "sponsored content," it isn't, so your statement as a broad generalization about JPost is inaccurate per your own given source (which is reliable) Andre🚐 19:40, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  That source points out the Post denied the allegations. WP:MANDY
  
  

  The brief italicized line is not what I was referring, nor is it is enough for JPost to just do that and call it a day. There are examples in the article of how Haaretz and The Forward do sponsored content which clearly show JPost is relying on a dark pattern to fool the reader.
  
  

  I was referring to Elli Wohlgelernter, who is the night editor, saying he was uncomfortable with the fact that such sponsored content was not always labeled to differentiate it for readers from journalism free of influence by advertisers. He is saying there is sponsored content that is not marked as sponsored at all. Wohlgelernter is a journalist with 50+ years of experience and has worked with Haaretz, the Times of Israel, and numerous US-based outlets and I encourage you to reflect on what it means when someone like that makes such a claim unequivocally of the outlet they have insider knowledge about. CoolAndUniqueUsername (talk) 20:23, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  That's an assumption not given in the voice of the Forward. They were concerned about sponsored content blending in, but it points out that all sponsored content is labeled as such, just might be hard to distinguish due to, everything else about these articles — the headlines, bylines, font and formatting — appears identical to articles on the website that are not advertisements, and nowhere does this disclaimer about “cooperation” refer to these sponsored posts as advertisements. These articles, many written by a reporter who also writes non-sponsored articles for the Post, are interspersed with normal news articles throughout its website. The former editor, Katz said: “In line with my journalistic values, ethics and principles all sponsored content was labeled as such during my tenure as editor in chief.” Andre🚐 20:52, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  There's no assumption given I'm quoting exactly what is written. The section you're referring to is called Content ‘in collaboration’ with advertisers that comes 2 sections later. More simply:

  1. The first section cites Wohlgelernter making a concrete claim that sponsored content is not always labelled.
  2. The 3rd section refers to diluted labelling for the subset of cases when sponsored content is labelled.

  Are you denying the first section where Wohlgelernter is making a concrete claim? CoolAndUniqueUsername (talk) 21:28, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  I was pointing out that the part you quoted was after what "Wohlgelernter said," not in the Forward's factual voice. That isn't clear from your message, but is attributed to him. So yes, he did concretely state that, but the Forward didn't say that, so the assumption is that he is correct specifically versus what the publisher and editor claimed and what the Forward's reporter confirmed. It would be easy to see how the practice was problematic to him and also is the practice described in the section, since Ashkenazi, the publisher, denied the statement made by Wohlgelernter. The assumption is that Wohlgelernter saw something beyond what the Forward confirmed. The Forward describes the practice which I quoted previously, and it's clear how that could also be what Wohlgelernter was describing, and he just exaggerated slightly or was inexact in his phrasing, or the journalist overstated what he said or meant when transcribing the interview or editing the story. This happens commonly with journalists. I remember speaking once to a journalist years ago who transformed my term "basement" into "attic." A minor difference to the meaning of the story and I never corrected it - journalist is no longer with that outlet either - but basement and attic are obviously opposites. Andre🚐 21:36, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  The Forward, or any reputable news outlet for that matter, will use their own voice where they can directly confirm facts. When they work with sources making a claim that is insider information and cannot be directly verified, they will not use their own voice and will instead clearly attribute the claim to the source (after having vetted their source per their editorial standards of course).
  
  

  In such cases, the reader must evaluate the claim being made by referencing against the biases and motivations of the source. In this case, the source is a journalist with half a century of experience and has a leadership position in JPost.
  
  

  I think the chances of Wohlgelernter exaggerating slightly or Wohlgelernter being inexact in his phrasing is vanishingly tiny. CoolAndUniqueUsername (talk) 22:06, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 - especially about palestinians. I view the Daily Telegraph as having an even worse bias on the war and it is a 1. It really does need a check before accepting what it says as true rather than just passing it off as bias. NadVolum (talk) 12:56, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1. The examples provided by u:Makeandtoss do not prove the lack of reliability. #3 and #4 have been retracted which is a positive sign. The characterisation as "Hezbollah-run" is a matter of judgement and degree, while Hezbollah doesn't have this portfolio it is a dominant force in Lebanese politics and the largest party in the ruling coalition. As to #2, a correction would probably be in order (infants were killed but not beheaded) but I don't think we should re-classify the source based on just this issue. Alaexis_¿question? 23:26, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1. No real concerns. Strong editorial policy, paper of record, good reputation. Researcher (Hebrew: חוקרת) (talk) 13:00, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1 per Chess, Alaexis, and others. I'm not seeing a sustained pattern of factual errors or falsehoods that would justify a downgrade. Astaire (talk) 16:31, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
• Option 4 for AI/IP and Option 3 in general. The examples highlighted by Makeandtoss as well as Smallangryplanet are damning evidence of the lack of editorial standards and a decision to unabashedly spread misinformation even when other reputable sources have published rebuttals and debunked false claims.
  
  I reject the assertion that JP should be rated as a 1 because some other source is also rated as a 1. Can the proponents who make this argument point out the policy that says this is acceptable? From WP:REPUTABLE: Articles should be based on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. JP has demonstrated that it has parted ways with fact-checking and accuracy.
  
  The Forward has published a detailed investigation into why JP's standards have plummeted. Summarizing:

1. The JP engages in pay-to-publish and has been doing so since 2004. The night editor, Wohlgelernter, has said that sponsored posts are not always marked as such and there's no way to tell what is independent reporting and what is a sponsored post.
2. The editor, Avi Mayer, resigned because the owner, Eli Azur, kept pressuring more sponsored content and practices that go against journalistic ethics.
3. What's even more horrifying is that Avi Mayer's background is of being a spokesperson for the IDF. He's an influencer for Israel and shares pro-Israel posts on social media. ... He retained a similar tone on social media while editor, using rhetoric unusual for the leader of a mainstream newspaper: “Good luck being unemployed,” he said to one university student who had blamed Israel for the Oct. 7 attack, while calling for another student to be fired. The demands of the JP's owners were so extreme that a pro-Israel military hawk with no background in journalism felt icky. CoolAndUniqueUsername (talk) 19:11, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

   Regarding publishing paid content as news pieces, they say later in the article in their own voice that it's hard to distinguish between news articles, rather than there being no distinction at all. I'm not sure what to make of it - maybe these are two separate issues, or maybe they are more sure in one than the other.

   Btw they've appointed a new editor who is apparently an experienced journalist [16], hopefully this will improve the situation. Alaexis_¿question? 21:24, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

   Btw they've appointed a new editor ... hopefully this will improve the situation - Yes, I hope so too and look forward to a survey for updating their rating from 4 to 1 when we have evidence of that.
   
   

   they say later in the article in their own voice that it's hard to distinguish between news articles, rather than there being no distinction at all - @Andrevan had this misunderstanding as well, so I'm copying my comment from that thread here:

   1. The first section cites Wohlgelernter making a concrete claim that sponsored content is not always labelled.
   2. The 3rd section refers to diluted labelling for the subset of cases when sponsored content is labelled.
      
      

   Wohlgelernter is a journalist with 50+ years of experience and has worked with Haaretz, The Times of Israel, and various other US news organizations. I think we can safely accept that Wohlgelernter knows a thing or two about journalistic integrity and is not just a random commenter. You're right that the 3rd section is where The Forward is using their own voice, but that is simply because that part can be independently corroborated by them. Wohlgelernter's statement must be directly ascribed to him by The Forward since that's how reporting works.
   
   

   Are you suggesting we discount Wohlgelernter's testimony altogether? CoolAndUniqueUsername (talk) 21:46, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

   I didn't misunderstand it, I would submit that you are somewhat misframing it. The 3rd section is what the Forward was able to confirm. The Forward doesn't corroborate the statement made by Wohlgelernter, so it is attributed to him, and not a flat fact. It could simply be a turn of phrase or an exaggeration of what he meant. Andre🚐 21:50, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

   The claim that Wohlgelernter is exaggerating is extraordinary and I don't see evidence to support that. He's a highly experienced journalist who's in a leadership position at JPost and is speaking to an external news organization. I think it's safe to assume that he has received media training and knows how to talk to journalists without putting his foot in his mouth. :) It's also a safe bet that he's interested in journalistic integrity and wants to improve the JPost.
   
   

   Wohlgelernter's testimony as well as The Forward's section is evidence that JPost is firmly in the pay-to-publish side of the landscape. CoolAndUniqueUsername (talk) 22:17, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

   Not at all. As the article explains, there are situations where there are labelled pay-to-publish sections. The Forward doesn't confirm any examples of pay-to-publish that wasn't labelled. Also, these are limited to the tenure of Meyer. Andre🚐 22:25, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

   Also, these are limited to the tenure of Meyer - How do you infer this? The article says clearly:

   Those tensions boiled over Wednesday when Avi Mayer left as editor of the Post. Mayer, whose background was in public relations, had been hired in April, and several of the current and former employees say he struggled to lead the newsroom. But they say mounting commercial pressure from Azur and Ashkenazi put Mayer in an impossible position.

   If anything, the situation is likely to be worse now. CoolAndUniqueUsername (talk) 22:30, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

   Once again you're making assumptions that are not in evidence. The article only details concerns under Meyer. Katz specifies that he did not have this issue. Andre🚐 22:39, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

   Please back up your claim with evidence instead of just rephrasing it. CoolAndUniqueUsername (talk) 23:00, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

   I already quoted the quote from Katz above. The article only details concerns under Mayer: Mayer, 39, was a controversial choice to lead the Post...criticized the quality of the Post’s journalism under Mayer... Mayer apologized.... Yaakov Katz, the editor before Mayer, frequently pushed back on management’s efforts to expand the amount of sponsored content in the Post and eliminate or obscure disclosures that they were advertisements. Andre🚐 23:05, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

   Your second point (and by extension your third point about Mayer "feeling icky") is not supported by the article, which says It is unclear what may have precipitated Mayer’s departure this week. There is no proof that he "resigned because" of anything. Astaire (talk) 00:40, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

   This is a WP:SPA, by the way. After reaching 500/30 the editor switched entirely to Israel-Palestine. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 00:55, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

   WP:AGF and don't WP:BITE; Not even their last 50 contributions are exclusively I-P. There's nothing inherently unusual about wanting to get involved in one of the most important current events topics of the day once you earn the right to do so. You should focus on the well researched and reasoned arguments they presented here. Unbandito (talk) 01:46, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

   I'm avoiding tagging with Template:spa because more context is needed, but yes, all 50 of CoolAndUniqueUsername's recent contribs are about Israel and/or Palestine. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 04:03, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

   Evidence free WP:ASPERSIONS, suggest they be struck. Selfstudier (talk) 10:47, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

   This is certainly false: [17] [18] [19] [20]. --JBL (talk) 21:11, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

• Option 3 for Israel-Palestine I don't know about their coverage outside the conflict, but in their coverage of the war, they showed incompetance, publishing disinformation, most famously, those of baby decapitations. FunLater (talk) 22:15, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  Reuters published almost the same information on photos shown to Blinken. This is Reuters from 10/12, and this is the JPost from 10/12. Also ABC and many other outlets. The debunked story of 40 decapitated babies from Kfar Aza is a completely different issue from the photos shown to Blinked with murdered babies. Researcher (Hebrew: חוקרת) (talk) 16:03, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  That isnt anywhere close to the same. The Jerusalem Post said The Jerusalem Post can now confirm based on verified photos of the bodies that the reports of babies being burnt and decapitated in Hamas's assault on Kfar Aza are correct. No part of that was true, they did not verify any photos of any decapitated babies because there were none. There were a total of 2 babies that were killed on October 7 (TOI, Haaretz for example, with Haaretz saying Ten-month-old Mila Cohen was murdered in the massacre, along with the baby still in the womb of her mother who died after her mother was shot on the way to hospital. The police have no evidence showing that other babies were killed.). The Jerusalem Post claimed (and still claims!) to have verified something that does not exist. Reuters did not. nableezy - 17:10, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• Option 3 for the Israel-Palestine conflict, broadly defined. It's clear from the above discussion and from JP's history of credulously publishing false information regarding the genocide in Palestine that it is inappropriate for use on that specific topic - it may be perfectly reliable outside the context of that conflict. However, considering the increasngly global character of the conflict, I'd think twice before using JP for pretty much any matter of international relations. Simonm223 (talk) 13:51, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Why would you vote "broadly defined" if your issues are specific to the genocide? Is the Jerusalem Post wholly unreliable for domestic politics? Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 00:53, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

  You should note that I was saying that, as the genocide has extended into a broadly international matter, that its coverage of foreign affairs was suspect - not domestic politics. Simonm223 (talk) 15:38, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

  Your vote is Option 3 for Israel-Palestine, broadly defined, which means a total ban of the source on anything related to Israel or Palestine. If you write "broadly defined" that includes domestic politics. If you want to amend your !vote to refer to the "Israel-Palestine conflict broadly defined" that'd be another issue. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 16:00, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

  I will make that change. Simonm223 (talk) 16:05, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

• Option 1 with the exception of localized and mostly minor issues, there is no broad pattern of unreliability, and the JPost represents a significant center-right perspective in Israeli politics. The source is broadly respected and used by others, and despite being arguably worse than some other Israeli sources, I see no indication of anything other than general reliability in all topic areas. FortunateSons (talk) 21:02, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2 for Israel/Palestine, Option 1 elsewhere. While it is mostly reliable, numerous errors made by the outlet in this war are of a more egregious nature (e.g. claiming to have seen footage of something that did not happen) and occur more frequently than other "involved" media outlets, which IMO merits some caution. -- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 16:54, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
• Option 3 for Israel-Palestine, otherwise a weak Option 1 - Besides incidents like calling a dead baby a doll & the 40 decapitated babies (of which there still remains an article saying they "can now confirm based on verified photos of the bodies that the reports of babies being burnt and decapitated in Hamas's assault on Kfar Aza are correct."). They are also willing to use the racist slur of "pallywood". Recently, they've also published an article citing a twitter account "OSINTdefender", known to spread false information. I don't think an organization like this should be considered much of a reliable source for contentious topics in general, but especially not for WP:PIA - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 01:39, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Option 2/3, and IMO, not just for I-P but for everything. It seems since 2004, the JPost does not enjoy a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy:

• 2009: Kevin Jon Heller writes of a JPost editorial, "the editorial contains more basic factual errors than any editorial I have ever read" [21] and, later, "No Correction by the Jerusalem Post" [22]
• 2019: "Jerusalem Post article makes premature claim on 'first complete cure for cancer', overstates research significance" according to WP:IFCN fact checker [23]
• 2020 COVID article found "misleading" also by WP:IFCN fact checker [24]
• 2020: "Jerusalem Post took government money to publish anti-BDS special", +972 [25]
• 2023: the Forward article about pay-to-play discussed by others above [26]

And that's without getting into the 2023-2024 decapitated babies stuff (also discussed by others above). It reminds me of the New York Post, just not "on the level," and there plenty of much better Israeli journalism to draw upon. Levivich (talk) 04:42, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

• Option 1, maybe 2, but oppose 3/4: Yes, it is biased but sources can be both reliable and biased. I do not see any pattern in their reporting that indicates they repeatedly publish false information. Some stories mentioned above are certainly concerning, but I do not see any indication this is a common occurrence. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 05:12, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2. For everyday matters, JP is reliable enough, but JP has several faults that demand caution. One (shared by most Israeli outlets) is that they often publish IDF claims uncritically as fact, contrary to their journalistic duty to attribute and investigate. Another fault is that they sometimes publish op-eds labeled as news when they are clearly opinion. We don't usually label individual journalists as unreliable, but if we were going to do that I'd specify a clear "option 4" for a few of JP's writers. Zero^talk 06:13, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

GLAAD & anti-LGBT groups

I would like to get people's input on how we should handle materials from the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD) - a 40 year old media monitoring organization that tracks anti-LGBT rhetoric in media. In addition to long-form reports[27], they maintain the "GLAAD Accountability Project" (GAP) which "monitors and documents individual public figures and groups using their platforms to spread misinformation and false rhetoric against LGBTQ people, youth, and allies. Some groups have misleading names inferring unwarranted expertise or credibility, when their main focus is advocating against LGBTQ people, and some claiming to be grassroots efforts have ties to national organizations with long histories opposing LGBTQ Americans."[28]

I recently added a detail to the article on anti-trans group SEGM, noting that GLAAD stated "SEGM public members are outspoken critics of regulation against conversion therapy on transgender people".[29] This was reverted with the comment that "This is a self-published, non-independent source specifically about a named individual, completely unsuitable for BLP claims, and selectively extracting the SEGM claims is sidestepping this source's unsuitability."[30] For reference, the "named individual" is a founder of SEGM who GLAAD wrote about.[31]

We use GLAAD ~1,500 times across Wikipedia[32] so I assumed they were GREL and considered akin to the SPLC, and especially usable given the WP:FRINGE/WP:PARITY considerations. I'd like to open this to more commenters as we use GLAAD so heavily site-wide it should be discussed. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 00:16, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

I'd consider GLAAD to be GREL as their reporting does contain factual statements, typically with links to back these up. Even the article that was used for the citation has links to all the relevant facts, which supports WP:V. GLAAD is universally well respected and regularly cited by WP:RS media organizations around the globe, supporting that those organization similarly consider GLAAD to be a reliable source for factual reporting. Raladic (talk) 00:41, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

This is a misuse of the "self-published" concept; it isn't an individual publishing their own work, but an organization with a hierarchy publishing the organizations work -- much as The New York Times Company publishes the New York Times. As for the idea that it's "non-independent"... of whom? GLAAD is certainly not dependent on Society for Evidence-Based Gender Medicine, the topic if the article. It's a biased source, as the group is in favor of things that SEGM is agin', but all sources are biased. And as Raladic says, this source is frequently cited by mainstream sources. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 01:20, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

From memory (I participated on that talk page a bit) SPLC and certain dr's were argued to be non-independent because court cases in the US about laws banning gender affirming care often cited SEGM and SPLC and dr's argued against it (I think both were bought in as witnesses). I imagine GLAAD did similar. The argument being they are legally related. I'm not overly familiar with independent being used in this nature but that's the argument being made. LunaHasArrived (talk) 13:22, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

For non-independence I may have confused GLAAD and GLAD. Mea culpa, but I'm sure you can see how that happens! (Both GLAD and SPLC are plaintiffs in cases where SEGM have appeared as expert witnesses for the other side, so, reliable or not, there's a legal relationship here that is worth bearing in mind) per WP:IIS Interest in a topic becomes vested when the source (the author, the publisher, etc.) develops any financial or legal relationship to the topic. Maybe I'm reading that too broadly, but AFAICT these are organisations briefing against each other in court. Void if removed (talk) 16:53, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I'd say GLAAD is GREL, and it's certainly independent of SEGM. But there's a separate question of whether it's a SPS and therefore a BLPSPS violation. WP:USESPS says that "Self-published works are those in which the author and publisher are the same," and includes situations where "the author works for a company, and the publisher is the employer, and the author's job is to produce the work." However, that essay also states that newspapers aren't SPS, even though journalists' job is to produce articles for the paper/publisher. I don't know whether GLAAD is really analogous to NatGertler's NYT example, both because I suspect that there's more independent editorial oversight of NYT articles than there is of GLAAD content, and because there is no author identified on the GLAAD page — the content represents the organization's view. If GLAAD is not a SPS, then there's no BLP violation. But if it is a SPS, then it can't be used for a statement about "SEGM public members." So if the general view here is that GLAAD is GREL, I'd discuss on the Talk page whether it's a SPS and take it to the BLPN if you can't get consensus on the Talk page. FactOrOpinion (talk) 02:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree that the SPLC is the best analogy here, and by that analogy I'd definitely say that GLAAD is GREL. I would be inclined to say that they're not an SPS but honestly our rules for what's an SPS are pretty ambiguous so I couldn't say that for sure. Loki (talk) 03:07, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

+1 Bluethricecreamman (talk) 15:07, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

BLPSPS is about an individual publishing their own work, not a group like GLAAD. Individuals within the group are not publishing blogs with no editorial oversite by the group. GLAAD is generally reliable for attributed statements in the same way SPLC is used. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 10:26, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I believe the argument was raised that SPLC was a SPS as well. I don't really see it myself, but it does mean that the comparison isn't as powerful as it could be. We might end up needing to have some sort of RFC or something about it to settle things. Alpha3031 (t • c) 11:12, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

I shouldn't think an RFC would be necessary, this is just a misunderstanding. It comes from people thinking "This article is written by GLAAD and published by GLAAD, so it's self published", but GLAAD isn't the author - an individual at GLAAD is the author. If a newspaper publishers an article with no byline that doesn't mean the author is the newspaper, and that the article is self published. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:10, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

There are clearly a significant number of people who want to dispute whether these organisations are SPS, so ideally we'd want something to point to. Some sort of formal close at least, maybe. I can see SPLC / SPS specifically was discussed previously on this noticeboard before as well, in Archive 230 (Aug 2017) with Kyohyi, NorthBySouthBaranof and a bunch of other people, Archive 245 (Jul 2018), with Kyohyi (for again), Slatersteven, NorthBySouthBaranof (against again) and Drmies participating, in Archive 347 (Jul 2021), with Springee, Nat Gertler (who are already here so I'm not going to ping them), Kyohyi again, Masem (arguing for) BobFromBrockley, MjolnirPants, Peter Gulutzan, Alanscottwalker, Aquillion, Dlthewave, etc.

This seems to be brought up for Science Based Medicine as well (which at least has a NOT SPS bit in its RSP entry), and there's a discussion in Archive 301 (Jul 2020) about BLPSPS more generally, so it seems to me at least it would be a good idea to go through some sort of formal process and then insert guidance, either at RSP or RS or V for these things, becuase while it doesn't seem to be frequent, it does seem to have been discussed a lot. Alpha3031 (t • c) 14:28, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

If editors rely want to discuss it I suggest having it at WT:V. It's how should all sources that are of this type be handled and do they constitute self-publishing, that's a policy discussion not one about the reliability of a source. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 14:43, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Also, if anyone is wondering about the pings for 245, I stopped adding people after I saw there were over a dozen, and I went through archive 245 after. Alpha3031 (t • c) 14:45, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Wow. Really was not expecting to get a ping when the only thing I'm doing anymore is reading articles and editing typos (and occasionally saying hi), but here we are.

So I have two things to say:

1. GLAAD is absolutely a reliable source.

2. Let us follow a bit of logic here.

Axiom 1: The right-wing in this country is currently engaged in efforts to perpetuate what amounts to a genocide against the LGBTQ community, specifically the trans community, from which my best friend, daughter, ex-girlfriend and countless other friends hail.

Axiom 2: I am a militant leftist Iraq veteran with a CIB and a Bronze Star, a large arsenal, a bad attitude and some very strong opinions on who the only good Nazis are.

Axiom 3: Wikipedia's editorship contains multiple outspoken right-wingers and is full of individuals who take offense at the slightest hint of incivility.

Conclusion: It would be a good idea not to ping me in any future political discussion, lest I actually share my detailed thoughts on the subject. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:01, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Noted. Apologies for the ping, I'll try and keep it in mind. Wish you well in your typo fixing. Alpha3031 (t • c) 00:30, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

It's all good. That wasn't intended as recrimination, just a blunt layout of the fact that I've pretty much exhausted my supply of patience with certain political POVs. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 18:44, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

In the USESPS essay, newspapers are explicitly excluded. But the general guidance there is "If the author works for a company, and the publisher is the employer, and the author's job is to produce the work (e.g., sales materials or a corporate website), then the author and publisher are the same." If what you're saying is correct, then the USESPS essay should be edited to reflect it. Note that there have been extended discussions about this issue on the talk pages of the essay (e.g., here), WP:V, and WP:RSN. FactOrOpinion (talk) 15:20, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

I honestly feel like the issue with our SPS guidance is that it's trying to do too much. We're trying to have a general indicator of whether a source is a well-established traditional source or not, but there's not really a clear way to define that, so we sneak that intuition into WP:SPS and WP:USESPS, which makes it much more difficult to tell whether a source is an SPS.

We're conflating "is the author as an individual the same person as the publisher as an individual" and "is the authoring organization the same as the publishing organization", even though essentially all sources are SPS under the second definition, because some bad sources (like ads) are clearly not SPS under the first definition even though that doesn't really contribute anything to their reliability. I think we need to just bite the bullet and accept that "not an SPS" does not mean "well-established" or "respectable". Loki (talk) 16:37, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Not, I think, "essentially all sources", but potentially "essentially all websites". https://www.coca-cola.com is written and published by the employees of The Coca-Cola Company; it is therefore self-published.

It is a general principle that whatever the game, whatever the rules, the rules are the same for both sides. So if https://www.coca-cola.com is self-published because that organization's employees decide what to put on their website, then https://glaad.org/ is self-published because organization's employees also decide what to put on their website. And if it's not, then the other is probably not, either. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:10, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Again, then what is the difference between cnn.com vs coca-cola.com?

Many of the editors and writers on cnn.com are paid by CNN, same as most other traditional media.

Coca-cola.com i'd argue is not WP:SPS so much it has the issue of not being WP:INDEPENDENT. It is clearly a company that promotes itself. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 23:15, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

The difference is that news media organizations are considered traditional publishers, and real-world definitions of self-publishing exclude traditional publishers. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:54, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

But why? This is the same thing I'm complaining about, where we're trying to smuggle a vague instinct into a precise definition.

IMO, zero of these examples should be SPS, because drawing the line anywhere else is either absurd (if CNN is self-published everything is self-published) or inconsistent (if CNN isn't self-published but GLAAD or the Coke website are, we have a double standard based on our intuitive understanding of the website's credibility, which is terrible for our evaluation of cases like GLAAD).

The Coke website is not reliable because it's not WP:INDEPENDENT, which has nothing to do with whether it's self-published. Loki (talk) 02:50, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Why does the real-world have these definitions? That's probably a question for the Wikipedia:Reference desk, but I assume that it has to do with the development of the book industry back in the day. Once upon a time, author+publisher+printer+seller were the same small shop. Eventually, the author function was split off (the publisher would find an educated gentleman in reduced circumstances, who could put some literary "style" into the books), and eventually the seller became a separate function, with shops in large towns carrying books from multiple publishers. Printers (and before them, public scribes) have always taken paid jobs, and it's not much of a leap from "Martin Luther will pay you to print some copies of a pamphlet he wrote" to "Jane Austen will pay you to print 750 copies of her book Sense and Sensibility". Both of these authors self-published some of their works, at a time when non-self-published authorship was a realistic option.

The question here isn't whether coca-cola.com is reliable. (Non-INDY sources can be reliable; SPS source can also be reliable.) The question is whether the people who write the contents are (a) the same ones who decide whether to publish them and (b) not traditional publishing houses. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:22, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

That's a mess, having a general rule but then saying it doesn't apply to news organisations (because if it did the general rule wouldn't work) is never going to have good results. The problem appears to be trying to solve many different issues by making this idea fit all of them, rather than relying on different rules. SPS isn't the be all and end all, just because a source has editorial oversite (and in my mind shouldn't be classed as a SPS) doesn't mean it has a reputation for accuracy and fact checking.

Self published should be described as an author publishing their own work, whether that's a blog or vanity press doesn't matter. Other issue coming from low quality sources that aren't strictly self published don't need to be solved by this definition. There are many qualifiers and idea about reliable sources, as with other policies and guidelines they can't be taken in isolation - just because it's not an SPS doesn't mean it's reliable. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:20, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Just to say I totally agree with ActivelyDisinterested's arguments here. To say GLAAD is an SPS is a misunderstanding of WP:SPS. If we need tighter formulation of our SPS policy to avoid such misunderstandings, this isn't the place to discuss that. BobFromBrockley (talk) 19:34, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

If that's true, WP:USESPS should be changed first because right now, by my reading, it very clearly is a self-published source. And the whole problem with WP:BLPSPS is that a self-published source can say what they like, with zero accountability, oversight or corrections policy, so I would say by whatever measure GLAAD's website is not an SPS, would then apply to essentially all websites for any activist group, and we get into a BLP minefield. Void if removed (talk) 16:19, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I think the question you want to ask is whether GLAAD might qualify for the "traditional media" exemption. That is, would we characterize it as being more like a newspaper than like an advocacy website? If so, then it's not really SPS.

The idea that traditional publishers are different is one from sources, not from Wikipedia. See, e.g., https://www.dictionary.com/browse/self-publish, "to publish or issue (one's own book or other material) independent of an established publishing house" or The Canadian Oxford Dictionary, "publish (a book etc.) oneself rather than through a publishing house". It's entirely possible that in what's called "New media", we will develop different ideas about what constitutes being "a publishing house". WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:27, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Cato (GLAAD arbitary break)

I wouldn't treat SPLC or GLADD as a GREL source. They are both activist sources. That doesn't mean unreliable but it means we need to assume they have a motive when providing what could be called negative coverage of some other source. To GLADD's credit, I don't think they have some of the troubling issues that have been reported about the SPLC. Still, if GLADD says something negative about an organization with politically opposed views is that because they are providing unbiased, factual reporting or because they are trying to discredit a source that opposes their own activism/positions? As for the SPS argument, I think it's half correct. When we move from news organization to activist organization it's still reasonable to assume anything they publish has some level of internal review, unlike something published by an individual. However, the source and the editorial control are still the same organization. SPS is written in a way that suggests its about material self published by an individual but it doesn't clearly state it only applies to individuals. Consider if we would accept a similar claim from a think tank like The CATO Institute vs GLADD. In both cases the organizations are well known and source frequently publish their views on a subject. If a 3rd party says CATO/GLADD said X on a topic then we could consider it due for inclusion. It's less likely to be DUE for inclusion if we are directly sourcing a GLADD/CATO press release. I would also be more comfortable citing CATO/GLADD on a question of public policy (how will this new law impact people in a given group) vs citing either of them to talk about an organization that would be viewed as their political opponent. In this case it appears that GLADD is being directly cited for a negative opinion of an opposing organization without making their political opposition clear in the article. I would say the removal looks fair based on grounds that are at least similar to SPS (though it may also apply) but also because it's effectively an organization's opinion that wasn't published by an independent RS. Springee (talk) 12:11, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

However, the source and the editorial control are still the same organization This would be the same for all organisations who employ the author, which would include all news organisations.

Whether something is due for inclusion is a different argument, as it's part of NPOV. Verification doesn't guarantee inclusion, inclusion requires that something can be verified. It can be verified that GLAAD has reported these details, whether that should be included or not is a matter for the articles talk page. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:22, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

You are correct, for normal media sources the source (reporter) and editorial control are both under the same roof. The difference is the objective. Obstenessively a news organization is publishing on topics not related to the organization. When dealing with an activist organization that is no longer true. The same might be true if a car company published a report talking about the need to improve the highway system or a pharma company taking about drug policy. It might be correct but it's also likely self interested. Either way, we shouldn't treat GLADD like news media. Rather it should be treated like publications from a company (Honda, Roche) or from a think tank (CATO). Perhaps a good question for the group is does SPS apply to groups and if not, what does? Springee (talk) 12:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, WP:ABOUTSELF applies to groups, but as this isn't an instance of them talking about themselves or anyone reasonably judged as connected to the organization, so it isn't relevante here. At most, all this means is that we would add "according to the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation" to the statement (and one of the joys of that group's name is that you don't really have to explain who they are.) Nat Gertler (talk) 13:46, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Nitpick: that's not their name anymore. They changed it to simply GLAAD a few years ago. Void if removed (talk) 16:30, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes they should be treated like other activist group and similar, with attribution of their statements. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 14:38, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

No. SPS does not generally apply to groups (really corporate entities), unless it is shown to be a cover, like a person creating his publisher, or paying his publisher.

The analysis goes the regular route to the CONTEXT, reputation of the publishing enetity, reputation of author, purpose, format, COI, Due, ONUS, other BLP concerns, and continues on. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:12, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

SPS does not generally apply to groups

That isn't at all what WP:USESPS says, so where is this exception coming from? Void if removed (talk) 16:34, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

The footnote for WP:SPS says "Self-published material is characterized by the lack of independent reviewers (those without a conflict of interest) validating the reliability of the content. Further examples of self-published sources include press releases, the material contained within company websites, advertising campaigns, material published in media by the owner(s)/publisher(s) of the media group, self-released music albums, and electoral manifestos." Your statement that SPS does not generally apply to groups (really corporate entities) is inconsistent with "the material contained within company websites." Who are the independent reviewers at GLAAD? 16:42, 30 October 2024 (UTC) FactOrOpinion (talk) 16:42, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

The independent reviewers are the employees of GLADD's publishing operation, just as the New York Times has independent "reviewers" (editors) it employs, except when The New York Times is publishing about itself. Both these reviewer's jobs is, among other things, avoid lawsuits that could destroy the organization when it is independently reporting on others, and GLADD would be even more likely to be destroyed by such lawsuit. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:32, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I assume that it's a lawyer, not an editor, whose job it is to avoid lawsuits. Seems to me that if an editor had reviewed the GLAAD page in question, that editor would have pointed out that most of the last sentence – "critics of regulation against conversion therapy on transgender people" – was plagiarized from the source that GLAAD linked to (the sole change being the replacement of "trans" with "transgender"). FactOrOpinion (talk) 18:35, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Plagiarism of one sentence that's your claim? That's not a serious claim. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:39, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Given that that sentence was the sentence added to the article, I think that has a bearing.

The point here is an opinion from a weak source has been plagiarised by GLAAD and then repeated in Wikipedia, attributed to GLAAD, as a stronger source. Void if removed (talk) 18:42, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

None of that has to do with self publishing, which GLADD is not, as the NYT, or CATO is not. And there is no need to WP:SHOUT. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:47, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Is coca-cola.com self-published? WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:30, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Obviously not. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 13:22, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Obviously it is. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:47, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Wrong answers to rhetorical questions: certainly a compelling argumentative strategy! Luckily there is a consensus developing among competent editors to fix the bad phrasing that implies this ridiculous conclusion. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 18:21, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I've posted definitions in this discussion; see this comment. There is a longer list at WT:V. You may also be interested in the relevant footnote in the WP:V policy, which specifically names "company websites" as being self-published. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:28, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it's a weak claim when it comes to the question of whether the page was reviewed by an editor or not. FactOrOpinion (talk) 18:58, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Of course it is, or perhaps, you don"t really understand plagiarism. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:01, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

[Edited to add: Here's the GLAAD text:] "SEGM public members are outspoken critics of regulation against conversion therapy on transgender people," and here's the Trans Safety Network text: "SEGM's public members ... [are] outspoken critics of regulation against conversion therapy on trans people," with both sentences linking the phrase "public members" to the same archived page. You don't think that's plagiarism? FactOrOpinion (talk) 19:52, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I think you would be surprised at the amount of plagiarism in peer reviewed publications that have been through multiple rounds of editing and review. Not to say it's common, but it happens, and sometimes much more substantially than a sentence or two. Alpha3031 (t • c) 02:06, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

You are exactly right. GLAAD noted it, and whether it should be included should be discussed on the talk page, if necessary. Historyday01 (talk) 17:28, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Cato might or might not be reliable for stuff outside of libertarianism (the last discussion was in 2015 and came to no consensus apparently but to be honest, I don't really care much... I don't think people try to use them as a source too often?) but I really don't see why they would be considered self-published. They should fine for attributed opinion, though I probably won't use them for actual economics instead of like, actual economists (i.e. WP:SCHOLARSHIP). Alpha3031 (t • c) 14:36, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

End of Cato stuff

I would say that GLAAD is GREL and I have cited them many times myself, mainly when it comes to their reports on representation in TV or their blogposts about said representation. I have my grumblings that they don't cover enough series, and miss some, but I'd agree that they are GREL. I would say the comment you got in response by Void if removed is clearly mistaken and a clear misuse of Wikipedia rules on self-published sources. Historyday01 (talk) 15:09, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

@Historyday01 Can you please explain how this is a clear misuse of Wikipedia rules? WP:USESPS says Almost all websites except for those published by traditional publishers (such as news media organizations), including [...] Business, charitable, and personal websites. Are you saying this is not a WP:SPS? Or have I erred in some other way? Void if removed (talk) 16:14, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, its not a self-published source, in any way shape, or form. I don't mind it being credited to GLAAD, and saying something like "according to GLAAD." If you think it IS a self-published source, I'd recommend you read the guidelines again. As said above by another commenter, GLAAD is "absolutely a reliable source." Historyday01 (talk) 16:24, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I'd recommend you read the guidelines again

I'm sorry, but I have read the guidelines, over and over, I'm not being wilfully obtuse - can you please explain how it isn't?

WP:USESPS says:

Neither the subject material, nor the size of the entity, nor whether the source is printed on paper or available electronically, nor whether the author is a famous expert, makes any difference

It also says:

Almost all websites except for those published by traditional publishers (such as news media organizations), including [..] Business, charitable, and personal websites

And non SPSs are:

The contents of magazines and newspapers [...] Books published by established publishers [...] Research published in peer-reviewed journals

So unless WP:USESPS is very wrong, what am I getting wrong here? Again - this is a genuine question. Void if removed (talk) 16:30, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I will refer to other comments on this issue, including Alanscottwalker who states above "SPS does not generally apply to groups (really corporate entities), unless it is shown to be a cover, like a person creating his publisher, or paying his publisher", as I do not want to get in a long and drawn out argument on this topic. It is clear that your viewpoint on this is unmovable. Also, let us be absolutely clear that WP:USESPS is an explanatory essay, NOT a guideline. So stop acting like it is a guideline. Historyday01 (talk) 16:33, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

OK, but WP:V, which is a policy, says that "Further examples of self-published sources include ... the material contained within company websites." Alanscottwalker's statement is inconsistent with that. FactOrOpinion (talk) 16:49, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I understand what you are saying, but I strongly disagree that GLAAD is a self-published source. If you said it was, then reports by every single group ever could be considered self-published, which is faulty. Historyday01 (talk) 16:59, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:V also says "Self-published material is characterized by the lack of independent reviewers (those without a conflict of interest) validating the reliability of the content." Who are the independent reviewers at GLAAD? FactOrOpinion (talk) 17:07, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

This is getting nowhere and we are going in circles. GLAAD itself arguably falls under WP:ORGCRIT as there are undoubtedly "significant coverage in multiple reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject." On those grounds we can say it is a reliable source, and hence can be cited. When it comes to BLPs, I understand that guidelines are stricter. In those cases, GLAAD should be cited by saying "according to GLAAD" or something along those lines, as others have noted earlier Going back to what the OP stated at the beginning of this discussion, the following was stated before it was removed from the page, incorrectly, by Void if removed:

The Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD) stated "SEGM public members are outspoken critics of regulation against conversion therapy on transgender people."

I would say this is an appropriate citation, for this page, as the organization is cited, and this is stated as a viewpoint of said organization. I see no issue with that, and I'm not sure WHY people are acting like this is an issue. It is not. As @User:Snokalok stated in a follow-up edit, "BLP doesn’t apply to organizations, and GLAAD is properly attributed in text" and Historyday01 (talk) 17:21, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think we're going in circles. You didn't answer my question, so I'll ask again: Who are the independent reviewers at GLAAD?

I'm not discussing whether GLAAD is a notable organization, nor whether it's GREL. I'm discussing whether it's SPS, which is distinct from both notability and GREL. Not sure what "BLP doesn’t apply to organizations" means here, as the SPS issue is not about what is said about GLAAD (SPS can be used to make statements about organizations as long as the author is an expert in the field), but about what GLAAD said about "SEGM public members," who are living people (and per BLPSPS, SPS cannot be used to make claims about living people, so it matters whether GLAAD is or isn't SPS). FactOrOpinion (talk) 17:31, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I am not going to comment on Snokalok's statement that "BLP doesn’t apply to organizations" but will say that I'm not entirely sure how BLP or SPS applies here (as I noted earlier it seems to be primarily aimed at biographies, which again have stricter standards than other articles, as Society for Evidence-Based Gender Medicine (cited in the original comment) is an organization, and the quote from GLAAD currently used in the article, "SEGM public members are outspoken critics of regulation against conversion therapy on transgender people" is about the organization's members, not a specific individual. As such, considering the source is GREL and is cited appropriately, I see no issue, and it falls within existing guidelines. Otherwise, I'm not going to comment on your other claims because I do not seem them as relevant because the source is cited appropriately. Historyday01 (talk) 17:48, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

SEGM is an organization, but their "public members" are specific living people. The WP edit that led to this RSN discussion was the removal of a quote from this GLAAD page. The quote came from the last sentence of that page, and if you click on the phrase "public members" there, it links to this SEGM page. If you scroll down slightly, that page identifies their public members. They weren't named in the WP page, but much of that GLAAD page focuses on one of those public members, and my interpretation is that the BLP restriction on using SPS to make claims about living people applies even if they're not named. I might be wrong about that, and we can ask on the BLPN. FactOrOpinion (talk) 18:57, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

In the source, that statement is cited to another, self-published activist website, that is itself already cited for other matters on the page. The GLAAD source is a summary of material from other sources already cited in the article (a Yale report, Buzzfeed, and this activist website). It is little more than aggregating material from other sources, in terms of depth and quality, and repeating it in this way creates an appearance of independent coverage that simply isn't the case.

Glaad says:

SEGM public members are outspoken critics of regulation against conversion therapy on transgender people.

The original site says:

SEGM's public members include key figures in the Bell v Tavistock case, and outspoken critics of regulation against conversion therapy on trans people.

The GLAAD page simply plagiarises this and removes the "Bell v Tavistock" claim.

This material from the original site would not be due, because it is partisan and self-published. GLAAD repeating it in a different self-published source doesn't add anything. Also, the name is simply GLAAD now. Void if removed (talk) 17:47, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, if you changed it to Trans Safety Network instead, it could still be cited, as long it says something like:

"The Trans Safety Network stated that the organization is "an anti-trans psychiatric and sociological think tank" and that its public members include "outspoken critics of regulation against conversion therapy on trans people" and key individuals in the Bell v Tavistock English court case."

And then this link would be cited. Citing organizations is fine as long as they are attributed them appropriately. Historyday01 (talk) 17:55, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

This isn't relevant. We are talking about this specific source, on GLAAD's website. Not GLAAD as a whole, nor how to get in content from other sources they might cite.

This page is IMO a WP:SPS, and the content is merely aggregating/plagiarising content from sources already cited on the page. Regardless of whether anyone thinks GLAAD are reliable in general, this specific source is a poor source for the material added. Void if removed (talk) 18:38, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

SPS section in V

We really should be sharing how self-published is described in WP: V. From WP: V " Self-published material is characterized by the lack of independent reviewers (those without a conflict of interest) validating the reliability of the content. Further examples of self-published sources include press releases, the material contained within company websites, advertising campaigns, material published in media by the owner(s)/publisher(s) of the media group, self-released music albums, and electoral manifestos:". Further in V "Most pages found in general search engines for the web are self-published or published by businesses small and large with motives to get you to buy something or believe a point of view.". My way of paraphrasing this is if the organization is trying to get you to buy something, or believe something, the work is internally generated, and it is in line with what they want you to buy/believe, then internal review is not independent review, and is therefore self-published. This isn't just limited to individuals publishing their own web pages or blogs, it applies to organizations as well. --Kyohyi (talk) 20:31, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, I think that makes it clear that these activist sort of organizations (both ones we like and dislike) should be viewed as self published. Springee (talk) 00:09, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think that's clear at all. For one, while UC Berkeley library guides might be persuasive in forming our guidelines, they are ultimately not Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Additionally, the literal reading self-published or published by businesses small and large with motives distinguishes the two as different classes, even if we might treat them the same way in some cases. We can, for example, adopt the idea that most random websites are GUNREL and the level of review may vary even with reputable organisations, but that is not the same as considering any biased source self-published.

Going back to the attribution question, I'm not really sure how we'd make their political views any more clear. As Nat Gertler puts it, it's spelt out pretty clearly already in the name. Maybe GLAAD, a media monitoring organisation that advocates for LGBT acceptance? Additional things like that really seem too verbose to make a habit of doing though. Alpha3031 (t • c) 02:09, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

The material Kyohyi quoted appears to be part of the WP:V policy (see the note 1). That note references several external sources but the quoted text is part of WP:V. That text specifically says that SPS is more than just one person operations. Springee (talk) 03:19, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I have read the note. As I've said, if you do consider the quotes to be incorporated into V, then you have to contend with the fact that "A or B" implies A and B are separate classes. If instead we treat it as "these first two sentences are how we define A on Wikipedia, these following dotpoints are some external opinions which we find persuasive that we used to arrive at it" then, in my opinion, this has the advantage of at least being internally consistent within the space of a paragraph. It's hardly a fatal failure for the other interpretation, but it seems at least a little undesirable.

Again, if we apply lack of independent reviewers as the rule, we can certainly exclude some organisations. What I am not seeing is that it is clear that we should exclude anything we would consider an activist organisation. I'm sure you've read the same discussion in this section that I have, Springee; please allow me a small indulgence, and entertain for a moment the possibility that they too could have in fact read the 372 words (including both notes) of the very section that has been under discussion for almost a day and a half now. Now, assuming that possibility, that our fellow editors are indeed perfectly competent to take part in this discussion: Said discussion does not seem to me like a clear endorsement of your and Kyohyi's interpretation of that same section. In fact, I would say it is rather less favourable than that.

What is clear is that something needs to change, because it is no good to have policies and guidelines if they don't properly polis or guide. Whether that is inserting some explicit comment in WP:RSP*, as had been done for Science Based Medicine and, apparently, Climate Feedback and Quackwatch as well, or whether we want to make some broader change modifying the phrasing of WP:SPS, or maybe adding a section, either specifically on think tanks and advocacy organisations, or more broadly. Or some combination of more than one of the previous options.

* before anyone says anything, I am also aware that GLAAD is not currently listed on RSP. That's not my point. Alpha3031 (t • c) 10:58, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

RSP is supposed to be a listing of sources that get regular discussions, and a summation of those discussions. It's not policy, and at best it could be documentation of consensus. The problem is that when we are dealing with sources that have strong beliefs tied to them people will engage in motivated reasoning as to why their preferred source is good, while an opposite view source is bad. Though we should be trying to stay WP: IMPARTIAL in our source analysis, editors are human, and suffer from this very human flaw. Personally I would prefer it if RSP documented what type of source things are, and it's editorial structure instead of wikipedians opinions on a source, but that's a different discussion. --Kyohyi (talk) 13:16, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

RSP is supposed to be a listing of sources that get regular discussions

I believe I've pointed to a few times this was discussed for SPLC. To be completely clear: My suggestion, if we are to add something to RSP, would be to add SPS status to SPLC's entry. I am aware of the fact that GLAAD does not have an entry, and will hopefully not need one. May this discussion never come up again. Noting SPS status is done for other RSP entries as well, not many of them but clearly people do add them when it becomes a issue. Additionally, "not SPS" is not the same as good, and "SPS" is not the same as bad. There are clearly instances where Barrett on Quackwatch, for example, would be a better source than a peer reviewed journal article (namely, when that journal article is low quality fringe bs) even though Barrett would be a SPS by consensus, and the journal article not.

type of source things are, and it's editorial structure

... Is "self published" not a type of source related to editorial structure? Alpha3031 (t • c) 14:42, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

My point is that I think RSP entries should focus more on is it a print magazine, online magazine, published blog, academic journal, (how long has the journal been in publication), are the writers experts in their field, does the publication have a panel of editors, or just one person doing the whole thing, is the publication related to some other parent organization, does it have editorial independence from that other organization. Stuff to help determine WP: RSCONTEXT. --Kyohyi (talk) 15:46, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I think that makes it clear that these activist sort of organizations (both ones we like and dislike) should be viewed as self published - it seems like you're arguing that WP:BIASED sources are automatically self-published. Would this apply to activist press, then? That is to say, magazines and the like which overtly support a particular point of view, like (to choose a random example) Reason (magazine)? Reason very clearly fits the description of being published by businesses small and large with motives to get you to buy something or believe a point of view, since it is published by the Reason Foundation, a think-tank committed to advancing "the values of individual freedom and choice, limited government, and market-friendly policies"; its purpose as a publication is to get people to believe that point of view, so by your logic it is self-published. Or if you still feel it isn't, then what precisely is the dividing line that makes GLAAD different? It seems like, in particular, your argument would apply to anything published by a think-tank (perhaps with some highly-specific exceptions for things with incredibly unusually good reputations, or for the rare think-tanks that aren't trying to advance a point of view) which confuses me because my vague recollection is that you've disagreed with that in the past. --Aquillion (talk) 13:50, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

To be clear, published by businesses small and large with motives to get you to buy something or believe a point of view is a quote from UC Berkeley, not a quote from the SPS policy. FactOrOpinion (talk) 16:58, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but it seems to be one a few people are saying we should use as a standard for declaring certain biased sources WP:SPSes; I'm pointing out the implications that would have. If anything published by an "activist organization" is considered self-published, as suggested above, then there's a bunch of things we currently consider reliable that would have to be re-evaluated due to eg. being published by think-tanks and the like. And we'd probably also have to consider the wording of WP:BIASED. --Aquillion (talk) 19:28, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

It's not anything published by an "activist organization". It's content produced, and published by an activist organization, while also related to their realm of activism. The all in one house relationship coupled with advocacy creates a conflict of interest on the review process. --Kyohyi (talk) 19:46, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Right, but that describes a lot of sources we consider reliable currently; many publishers are mission-driven and produce things, in-house, that align with their mission and which focus on things related to that mission. I'm not averse to changing policy to treat them as self-published (which would functionally make most think-tanks devoted to advocacy, and anything they publish in-house, unusable for anything related to their mission, outside of a few narrow exceptions), but we'd have to do so to a lot of sources beyond just GLAAD. To get back to my original point - would you say that anything Reason (magazine) publishes that touches on "the values of individual freedom and choice, limited government, and market-friendly policies" (which is basically everything they publish, that being their purpose) falls under WP:SPS? It's a magazine produced and published in-house by a think-tank, the Reason Foundation, devoted to activism on those points. Normally, we say that such WP:BIASED sources are still usable, even for BLP purposes, as long as they are otherwise a WP:RS - that is to say, as long as they can credibly claim editorial controls and a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, we don't just say "well yeah but since the editorial controls are being done by activists, it's conflicted and therefore worthless." If we're going to reconsider that, we have a lot of other sources to go over. GLAAD lists authors and researchers for the pieces it publishes, which are distinct from GLAAD itself as an organization; if you don't feel that that's sufficient, what is the dividing line? --Aquillion (talk) 04:26, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't disagree that the line becomes fuzzy when we're dealing with what would be called advocacy journalism. And the best response I can say is can we determine if they have an independent editorial board which isn't beholden to the mission of the parent company. Do they publish content that is independent of the mission? That is evidence of an independent editorial board. Do they publish content that would be against the mission? That would be strong evidence. We can argue whether or not a source is more advocacy or more journalism, and exactly where that line is. But there are a number of sources which don't even present themselves as journalism and exist only as advocacy. To make a comparison, Reason would be more akin to Pink News, than either of them would be to GLAAD. --Kyohyi (talk) 12:42, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

that describes a lot of sources we consider reliable currently

You and others are confusing self-published with unreliable. These are orthogonal concerns. Please read WP:USESPS which says:

self-publication is not, and should not be, a bit of jargon used by Wikipedians to automatically dismiss a source as "bad" or "unreliable" or "unusable".

Please try and separate these two things. GLAAD can be reliable generally and this specific material can be self-published at the same time. The only serious caveat with it being self-published is that you shouldn't use it for BLP claims. Given that the GLAADAP is nothing but BLP claims, that probably means it shouldn't be used, but most of the rest of GLAAD's output is absolutely fine.

GLAAD lists authors and researchers for the pieces it publishes, which are distinct from GLAAD itself

Self-published is not necessarily a blanket statement for everything GLAAD produces in all situations. In this specific case, this is content produced in-house and posted on their website with no identifiable author, no external publishing arrangement etc. It is textbook self-published material.

what is the dividing line

If it was written and published by the same entity - regardless of the size of that entity - it is self-published, unless it falls under one of the exceptions eg. for legacy media/news organisations at WP:USESPS. Void if removed (talk) 09:08, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

SPS and RS are distinct features. A source can be any of the four: SPS & RS, SPS & non-RS, non-SPS & RS, non-SPS & non-RS. Saying that think-tank's website is SPS doesn't mean that you have to reevaluate whether they're RS. The issue here is the BLPSPS restriction, because the WP text in question is about public members of SEGM, and they're living persons who are identifiable. FactOrOpinion (talk) 00:30, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

No, this mostly is untrue. Reread WP:SPS; it is largely a category that declares things in it to be non-RSes. The only exceptions are for self-published expert sources when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications and for WP:ABOUTSELF. The core definition of a SPS is that they lack what we would consider valid or functional editorial controls, which normally bars them from being a RS. --Aquillion (talk) 04:26, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

No, what I wrote is true. I didn't claim that all four categories (SPS & RS, SPS & non-RS, non-SPS & RS, non-SPS & non-RS) have the same size. I'm pointing out that none of those four categories is empty, and therefore the features of being self-published and being reliable are distinct. You just pointed out the two things that fall in the first category. If a think tank has already been identified as a reliable source, that's presumably because the authors have expertise in their field, so if it's a SPS, it falls in the subject-matter expert exception. Can you name a think tank that's a reliable source but where the authors are not subject-matter experts? FactOrOpinion (talk) 15:09, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

What this makes clear is that footnote 1 at WP:SPS is badly written in that it conflates two different things. By comparison, the sources it quotes (in the same footnote) do a good job distinguishing those two things: The University of California, Berkeley, library states: "Most pages found in general search engines for the web are self-published or published by businesses small and large with motives to get you to buy something or believe a point of view." (my emphasis); The Chicago Manual of Style, 16th Edition states, "Any site that does not have a specific publisher or sponsoring body should be treated as unpublished or self-published work." The problem with coca-cola.com is that the only content on there is about the product sold by the publisher, and everyone involved in publishing it has an interest in that product selling well; this is a good reason to not use coca-cola.com as a source, but it has nothing to do with the concept of self-publishing, and is not analogous in any way to material published by GLAAD.

(Personally I do not consider it shocking that Wikipedia policies are not always carefully or thoughtfully written: they're produced by the same process that Wikipedia is, but without recourse to reliable sources, and with much less scrutiny than any high-profile article.) 100.36.106.199 (talk) 13:33, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

So if we look at coca-cola.com, we see that it is:

• written by employees of The Coca-Cola Company and
• published by employees of The Coca-Cola Company

and the actual definition of self-published, if you spend a while looking in dictionaries, is "written and published by the same people, who are not a traditional publishing house", but you say that even though coca-cola.com is written and published by the same people, and even though they are not part of a traditional publishing house, they are somehow non-self-published?

I wonder how you come to that conclusion. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:46, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

"I promise some dictionary somewhere agrees with me" well gosh I guess I don't have a rejoinder for that. Why do you think the UC-B library makes an explicit distinction between the cases of self-published material and material published by businesses? Why do you think the Chicago Manual of Style makes a distinction between self-published material and material with a "specific publisher or sponsoring body"? Maybe the problem is that no one at UC-B or CMS has ever read the dictionary? 100.36.106.199 (talk) 18:25, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

USESPS is an essay, goes far beyond actual policy (SPS) and in multiple discussions and in practice that definition has been rejected. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:45, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

WP:BLPSPS says Never use self-published sources—including but not limited to books, zines, websites, blogs, podcasts, and social network posts—as sources of material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article.

The GLAAD website is a WP:SPS per WP:USESPS. Void if removed (talk) 16:10, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

That is a terrible misreading and I'm unsure why you are arguing this point. I would not say GLAAD sources are self-published. Also WP:BLPSPS *only* applies to biographies, NOT to other articles, let's be clear. It is my understanding that self-published sources, can generally, be used, as long it is very minimally. Even so, in terms of GLAAD, it clearly is not a self-published source. Also, as noted above, this claim comes from people thinking "This article is written by GLAAD and published by GLAAD, so it's self published", but "GLAAD isn't the author - an individual at GLAAD is the author." Let's be absolutely clear here. GLAAD reports are NOT the same as some random social media post. There is no equivalence. Historyday01 (talk) 16:30, 30 October 2024 (UTC) Update: I revise what I said above: WP:BLPSPS, generally applies to biographies, not to other articles, especially if biographies of living persons are not cited in said articles.--Historyday01 (talk) 17:12, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm unsure why you are arguing this point

Because you keep saying its a misreading without explaining how, other than you disagree, seemingly quite strongly. If your argument is that WP:USESPS is wrong, well that seems quite a fundamental essay to be wrong seeing as it is directly linked from one of the most basic policies.

WP:BLPSPS *only* applies to biographies

My understanding is WP:BLP concerns apply to any BLP claim, even talk pages.

NOT the same as some random social media post

That isn't the issue. The issue is: are they self-published? Are they in any way equivalent to the editorial/publishing/oversight process of an academic journal, a newspaper, or a book publisher? By my reading, SPS is not about quality or size of entity, it is about independence/oversight of author from publisher. Void if removed (talk) 16:43, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

As I said elsewhere, WP:USESPS is not policy and it never has been. Additionally, I defer to others in noting on the reliability of GLAAD. If it IS cited in a biography, then those guidelines applied to biographies apply, which are stricter than on other pages. Additionally, SPS, if we are to use it, only seems to be applied to biographies, from my reading of the essay. Historyday01 (talk) 17:04, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Also WP:BLPSPS *only* applies to biographies, NOT to other articles is false. WP:BLP is quite clear that "This policy applies to any living person mentioned in a BLP, whether or not that person is the subject of the article, and to material about living persons in other articles and on other pages, including talk pages." FactOrOpinion (talk) 17:02, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Hmm, ok. In any case, I revise what I said earlier to say it primarily applies to biographies. And if a page lists people that do NOT have biographies (and there are many on this website), then it likely wouldn't apply. Historyday01 (talk) 17:10, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

No, it very clearly applies to "any living person" regardless of whether they have an article. FactOrOpinion (talk) 17:21, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Ok, you can go on. In any case, BLPs clearly have stricter standards for sources than other pages. Historyday01 (talk) 17:23, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

It's statements about living persons that have stricter standards for sources, regardless of where those statements about living persons appear on WP. It's not that the standards for BLP articles are stricter; it's that there are more statements made about living persons in BLP articles. FactOrOpinion (talk) 17:50, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Ok. I would say "there are more statements made about living persons in BLP articles" isn't always true because some BLPs are embarrassingly short (i.e. they are stubs). Luckily, there are some users who work to expand those stubs into better, more through articles! Historyday01 (talk) 18:03, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

This isn't a self-published source, and nor are similar organisations. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:00, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

UN resources etc

By that logic, UN resources published on UN.org are self published, as are most advocacy groups, think tanks, and NGOs.

Since none of the work goes through another publisher, they'd be SPS. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:48, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I think that is true, that is exactly how I read things, ie, you probably shouldn't use self-published material directly from thinktanks and advocacy groups for BLP claims. It should be pretty obvious why. If it is picked up and covered in secondary sources, with editorial oversight and a corrections policy, use those. Void if removed (talk) 16:57, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

That's a troubling opinion. UN organs have much more reliability than NGOs, as there is often more expertise, especially if its a report, like a court order from the ICJ for instance. Historyday01 (talk) 17:08, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, TBF, I think the UN is a bit different, as it has different kinds of documents and a publication board, so it arguably depends what sort of document you mean. But even so I don't know where this would be relevant, ie where something like a UN press release would be used for a third party BLP claim, for which no secondary source exists. This is all in the weeds though, the point is that whatever convoluted process we might agree the UN has, and whether that isn't an SPS, has no bearing on GLAAD's website. Void if removed (talk) 17:28, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Ok. In any case looking at the content removed as noted in the beginning of the discussion, I do believe it was attributed appropriately and agree with the editors who restored your removal. Otherwise, I'll let other users speak to this topic as I've already said enough here. Historyday01 (talk) 17:31, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Specific reports from GLAAD, UN, and other advocacy groups such as SPLC often have author lists. I pointed out this example to suggest that by WP:USESPS, since the publisher is the organization, and the author is not the whole organization, reports should not generally be considered WP:SPS.

In particular, if the publishers are biased, we can use WP:OPINION voice and relevant guidelines to state what's happening. But we should not assume all publishers are the same, and that if the publisher is an overarching organization, of which the author is part of, it isn't quite SPS. Simply dismissing all NGOs, advocacy groups such as GLAAD, ADL, SPLC, and the UN as WP:SPS akin to some random guys' random blog is ludicrous. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 18:00, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I completely agree. This is the issue I have with the arguments primarily by Void if Removed and FactOrOpinion in this discussion. Historyday01 (talk) 18:02, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Possible other counter-examples I'd argue that appear as WP:SPS but actually are not

• NYTimes editorials where the author byline is NYTimes editorial board. Technically at first glance, looks like author and publisher are both nytimes. [33] [34] Should be used as WP:OPINION, but not under WP:SPS.
• Articles in medical journals that have the byline as the medical journal. [35] Many are also editorials, but doesn't mean we can't use them.

It depends on context and who the publisher is ofc. If John Doe creates John Doe Inc., it probably is a SPS. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 18:09, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Not all self-published sources are created equal, and such sources which are considered experts in their field are perfectly usable in articles of their expertise. The only time self-published sources are categorically not used is on BLP content. Which has the exception of a source talking about itself. --Kyohyi (talk) 18:13, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

These are all exceptions in WP:USESPS, I don't see why you bring this up.

And saying that because something is WP:SPS that means it is akin to some random guy's random blog is a straw man. Void if removed (talk) 18:31, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

From WP:SPS: Almost all websites except for those published by traditional publishers (such as news media organizations),

I'd argue that GLAAD, UN, and think tanks etc. are traditional publishers in that they publish reports regularly and have been sponsoring researchers for a long while. I bring up the supposed strawman argument to point out the issues with throwing away reputable organizations based on a faulty definition. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 18:33, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

You could argue that, I suppose. But wouldn't that make every organization with some sort of web page a traditional publisher? They all regularly publish some sort of report on their ongoings. Or would a traditional publisher be an organization whose purpose is to accepts or rejects written material from independent authors. In which case, GLAAD, UN, and think tanks are not traditional publishers as they don't usually publish independent content. --Kyohyi (talk) 18:47, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

You are confusing independent content with biased content.

Bias is totally allowed per WP:SECONDARY as long as we attribute as per WP:OPINION. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 18:53, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

No, I'm saying that traditional publishers are in the business of publishing independent content, as in content they don't create in house. These orgs are not in that business, which is why they aren't traditional publishers. Independent content is different from biased content. --Kyohyi (talk) 19:53, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

News organisations produce most of their content in house though, and the bit they don't (e.g. from wire services) are usually not subject to their own editing. Alpha3031 (t • c) 02:20, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

• I'm unclear what you mean by "in-house" in this context; most news organizations publish things in-house, and generally speaking stuff that isn't created in-house wouldn't even be considered part of their output for WP:RS purposes (ie. if they're just reposting stuff like press releases or news feeds from elsewhere with no edits, the reliability comes from the original source, if it exists at all.) But GLAAD does list authors in the acknowledgements section for papers it produces, who are generally not part of GLAAD itself; it is not self-published in the sense of these authors just throwing whatever they want out into the world with no editorial controls at all. Is your assertion that GLAAD's fact-checking and editorial controls do not count at all (as opposed to merely rendering it WP:BIASED) because the group itself is an advocacy org? --Aquillion (talk) 04:41, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

In house means as directed by the mission of the organization. In essence does the writing/editing staff have editorial independence, or are they driven by the mission of the organization. We assume this is the case for journalism, for advocacy journalism it gets fuzzy, and for advocacy there is no reason to believe they have editorial independence. --Kyohyi (talk) 12:56, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

That's certainly an... interesting definition of in house. Alpha3031 (t • c) 16:30, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I will add as well - the GLAAD source simply repeats information from sources already cited on the page. Irrespective of reliability, independence, or publishing status, citing it in this specific case adds absolutely nothing. Void if removed (talk) 17:17, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Eh, I think it does add something, since GLAAD is a well-known organization and their viewpoint on this is worth noting. Historyday01 (talk) 17:22, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

If their viewpoint is "Buzzfeed said X", and we're already citing Buzzfeed, this isn't adding anything. Void if removed (talk) 17:30, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Ok. Whether GLAAD or the Trans Safety Network should be included (I would vote for the latter in this case since it does provide a bit more detail) [I proposed some possible text above], can be decided through a talk page discussion if necessary. I don't think the GLAAD page is necessarily bad (the sources generally seem fine and the Buzzfeed article seems to fall under WP:BUZZFEEDNEWS), but the Trans Safety Network article is better in terms of the sources cited. That's just my view. Historyday01 (talk) 18:01, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Not a concern for RSN either way. The point of this noticeboard is to decide if GLAAD is a reliable source (and it is, and it's not an SPS), not whether or not to use it on any given page. Loki (talk) 18:44, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

The specific source cited (the GLAAD Accountability Project pages) simply seem to be taking/aggregating content from other sources, about named living subjects, and collating them - and they do appear to be self-published, like any corporate website. I have a lot more faith in GLAAD's longer-form subject matter reports being reliable, than this sort of content aggregation, where reliability seems to depend on the sources actually being used. And since these specific pages are self-published, none of these should be used on any BLP. Void if removed (talk) 18:55, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

So, your claim is the GLADD page is republishing, then it is even more silly to talk about self-publishing. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:05, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Right. As I said in my above comment, I think the GLAAD page is fine as bringing together / summarizing multiple sources... which isn't a secondary source supposed to do? And as such, it isn't a SPS... Historyday01 (talk) 19:21, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

A secondary source can still be self-published.

Seriously, this is all in WP:USESPS: Self-published sources can be primary, secondary, or tertiary sources. Void if removed (talk) 20:26, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm at a loss why you think a source copying content from other sources can't be self-published, let alone to call that silly? Void if removed (talk) 20:28, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Because it is silly. A republishes publishes writing from elsewhere, it is independent and it can't possibly be self publisher of that material. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:40, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

A paid employee copying content from other websites and putting it in pages on a company website is not "independent publishing". Your suggestion means every hack plagiarist is a publisher, which really would be silly. Rather, this is exactly the sort of unaccountable practice lacking in independent editorial oversight that is why we do not trust WP:SPS with WP:BLP claims. Void if removed (talk) 20:50, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

That is still silly. Self-published is not another word, for you don't like it When the Seattle Times republishes a wire service, it is silly to say it is a self publisher. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:55, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Republication from a traditional publisher (e.g., a wire service) wouldn't necessarily invalidate the original publication, but what if it's a copy of a press release? Not a gently edited press release, but just "Hey, if we fill our ordinary daily newspaper's website with commercially distributed press releases, we'll get more traffic, so auto-post them all" re-publication. Would you call that press release non-self-published now? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:10, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I have a lot more faith in GLAAD's longer-form subject matter reports being reliable, than this sort of content aggregation,

See, if the argument originally made was that some specific parts of GLAAD's website might be less reliable or subject to whatever review process they have, that would be a lot easier an argument to make. That's a claim that I personally wouldn't reject out of hand on my end. I'll take a look at any evidence produced to this effect, but I don't believe it would be appropriate to consider any of these organisations (UN, think tanks, advocacy orgs) SPS as a whole, even if some of them might be unreliable in other ways. Alpha3031 (t • c) 02:25, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Though I do see the points from YFNS below, which I would consider evidence against the idea that the accountability project is self-published. Alpha3031 (t • c) 02:45, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Sometimes everything an entity publishes is SP, sometimes everything it publishes is non-SP, and sometimes its publications are a mixture of SP and non-SP (e.g., it publishes both an edited annual report and a non-edited podcast). Ditto for whether its publications are RS: it might be all, none, or a mixture. In discussions, I sometimes lose track of that third possibility (mea culpa), and I end up talking about the entity as a whole rather than focusing a specific publication. The question here is whether this specific webpage is SPS, not whether GLAAD as a whole is SPS. There is no author identified for this webpage, and ultimately, I'm not sure how to determine whether it was reviewed by an independent (non-COI) reviewer. I assume that their more significant publications undergo that sort of review. FactOrOpinion (talk) 16:43, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

This is exactly my point upthread. SPS is not a blanket status that applies to an entity as a whole, and many sources are mixed. Past discussions on WP:V concur with this interpretation.

As stated in the comment you're replying to: if the argument originally made was that some specific parts of GLAAD's website might be less reliable

That was the argument originally made, about a specific source (ie, a page on GLAAD's accountability project website, and not one of their longer reports). Whether that applies to other sorts of material published by GLAAD is a different question. Void if removed (talk) 16:56, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I took part in that WP:V discussion. I haven't been editing as much since then, so I've forgotten some of the things that I'd understood at the time, or at least I held them more at the front of my mind then than I do now, which is likely why I fell into discussing whether GLAAD is a SPS rather than whether that webpage is a SPS. FactOrOpinion (talk) 19:51, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Right. And I would say it clearly IS a reliable source. Historyday01 (talk) 19:20, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I'd say there's a difference in reliability between GLAAD's longer form reports, and the accountability project pages on their website, which consist largely of material collated (and in some cases plagiarised) from other sources, as a dossier of claims about living people. This is material collected and published by GLAAD employees on their own website. It ticks every box for a WP:SPS, there's no information about or evidence of independence or oversight, I don't see how you can argue otherwise? From WP:USESPS

If the author works for a company, and the publisher is the employer, and the author's job is to produce the work (e.g., sales materials or a corporate website), then the author and publisher are the same.

[...]

One characteristic of self-published material is lack of reviewers who are independent of the author (those who are not hired and fired by the author, and whose employment does not depend upon agreeing with the author).

IMO GLAAD's content generally is reliable - especially their more official reports - though perhaps requiring attribution as a biased source, but the accountability project pages are clearly self-published, and as such they are not suitable for use in BLPs. Given the fact that some of the material seems just lifted from other sources, I'm not even sure these pages should be used with attribution. Void if removed (talk) 20:43, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

GLAAD is an advocacy org recognized for their efforts. As such they should be treated as generally reliable though any claims made from a GLAAD source should include in text attribution, as we would for SPLC and similar focused advocacy groups. — Masem (t) 21:00, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

As other users have noted, GLAAD is primarily an advocacy organization that publishes aggregated content on its own platform, which classifies it as a self-published source rather than a neutral news outlet. Per Wikipedia’s guidelines, self-published sources are generally not suitable for BLP claims, given their potential for bias. Additionally, the specific page from GLAAD cites material from Trans Safety Network, another advocacy organization with a similar focus. Citing an advocacy group that is, in turn, citing another advocacy group introduces additional layers of subjectivity and does not meet Wikipedia’s standards for verifiability and reliability, especially in sensitive or contentious areas. Furthermore, GLAAD’s page does not provide original reporting or fact-checking on this matter but merely repackages claims from another partisan source. For these reasons, GLAAD, as used here, does not meet the necessary criteria to substantiate this kind of claim in this context. Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 14:53, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

That is a strong claim to make.

As per WP:SECONDARY and this essay, biased SPS can be used, just use WP:DUE and don't use it for WP:BLPSPS Bluethricecreamman (talk) 15:09, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

While biased self-published sources (SPS) may be used to reflect their own opinions, this instance involves circular referencing. GLAAD simply cites Trans Safety Network, adding no original content. Quoting one advocacy group that merely quotes another offers no new information and does not meet standards for reliable sourcing. Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 15:10, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

@Bluethricecreamman, I don't see anything about either biased sources or self-published sources in WP:SECONDARY. Perhaps tell us which bit you were thinking of? Or maybe you meant to say WP:BIASED?

"Quoting one advocacy group that merely quotes another" would be a WP:LINKSINACHAIN situation (and therefore not secondary, unless the quoted original was already secondary). WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:24, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Sorry. I think WP:BIASED, WP:ALLOWEDBIAS cover what I mean. Wikipedia:Secondary does not mean independent also seems useful.

I swear, I recalled there was some essay/policy that was saying that secondary sources are often biased, where the sentence included both "secondary sources" and "biased". ah well, I think I disagree with the WP:LINKSINACHAIN situation, using and citing research in a meta-analysis to make a broader point could count as the type of synthesis you expect in a secondary. Linksinachain is simply about restating the same quotation/figure without useful analysis. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 17:16, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I can't think of the page you're remembering, but I'd not be surprised if it existed. Perhaps one of us will remember it later.

It sounds like you agree with LINKSINACHAIN: "simply...restating the same quotation/figure without useful analysis" does not turn a quoted primary source into a secondary one, but "using and citing research in a meta-analysis to make a broader point" definitely does. That is the point of LINKSINACHAIN. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:00, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Just to reiterate, this specific situation is not a quotation, it is plagiarism. Void if removed (talk) 20:00, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

The Hill article on Accountability Project

For the record for all, The Hill published an article on the GLAAD Accountability Project[36] which says:

• Now, the media watchdog is expanding the project to hold more than 200 politicians, commentators, organization heads, journalists and other public figures accountable.
• The archive was published before GLAAD could finish a final internal review last month and was immediately noticed online.
• After criticism over revisions, which Ellis said were ongoing at the time, they did take the project down, saying, “no entries are being removed from the project, but additional profiles will be added and an official launch will happen soon.”
• Now the project is up — officially — and GLAAD is prepared for more pushback. But, the group is also open to conversation “for real change” with Singal and others on the list, which Ellis said is intended to be a “living breathing document that will evolve.” “We live in a time where what you say is documented, and that’s all this is, is a documentation,” she said
• GLAAD, a nongovernmental media watchdog, plans to maintain the archive, adding and updating profiles as necessary, as a repository for journalists and other members of the media to consult in their research.

Some key highlights: It's considered a reliable nongovernmental media watchdog, their archive consists of documenting factual statements and quotes, and what they publish there is subject to internal review - so it is not self-published as the authors are subject to editorial oversight and fact-checking and can't just say whatever they want. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 22:41, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Nothing in that suggests it is considered a "reliable, nongovernmental media watchdog" nor that their records are anymore factual than any other group that collects quotes they feel indicate anti- or pro- something. That isn't to say they are always wrong or right. Instead, they are clearly an activist organization and per WP:V they would fall into the group identified by WP:V as self published. (Self-published material is characterized by the lack of independent reviewers (those without a conflict of interest) validating the reliability of the content. Further examples of self-published sources include press releases, the material contained within company websites, advertising campaigns, material published in media by the owner(s)/publisher(s) of the media group, self-released music albums, and electoral manifestos: Advocacy groups shouldn't be treated as outright reliable or DUE for inclusion and this is especially true if they are politically opposed to the group in question. Springee (talk) 00:15, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I've mentioned this on the talk page as well, but I would consider treatment in line with WP:RSOPINION to be appropriate for advocacy organisations in general, but I find the argument that they are entirely self published to be bizarre, and still do. DUE is something we need to consider for everything, nothing is treated as automatically reliable (even GENREL sources) or DUE, but arguing it should be excluded due to being self published is a stretch. Alpha3031 (t • c) 02:42, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

• I'm going to repeat my question above and ask whether this ought to be a general rule for anything published by a think-tank devoted to advocacy, because it seems to me to be inconsistent with your past positions. Do you concede that Reason (magazine) is likewise self-published, and should likewise not be used in situations where it is ideologically opposed to whoever it is describing? It is published by a think-tank with a stated aim of advocacy, which means that your reasoning (regarding its reviewers lacking independence due to a conflict of interest) seems to apply there as well. I'm not necessarily opposed to being stricter about prohibiting the use of sources published by think-tanks and other sources of advocacy, but we'd have to be even-handed if we're making that a strict rule, since it changes a lot of how we've thought about WP:BIASED; and that would start by opening a discussion about sources like Reason, which obviously fail to clear the bar you're arguing here. And if not, then what is the precise difference - what would GLAAD have to do differently for you to consider it to be closer to Reason? Identifying that dividing line would be helpful in terms of both turning this into a workable general principle, and indicating more precisely what sorts of things people who believe GLAAD is reliable would have to produce in order to convince you. --Aquillion (talk) 04:38, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

  If you read WP:USESPS the answer is in there. It says the following are not self-published:

  The contents of magazines and newspapers, including editorials and op-ed pieces in newspapers (including online-only content of widely-circulated magazines and newspapers)

  But it also says:

  Conversely, properly published sources are not always "good" or "reliable" or "usable", either. Being properly published does not guarantee that the source is independent, authoritative, high-quality, accurate, fact-checked, expert-approved, or subject to editorial control. Properly published sources can be unreliable, biased, and self-serving.

  To me, Reason looks like it isn't a self-published source (the magazine predates the foundation for starters), though it is very clearly not independent, and likely biased and self-serving too (as an ideological mouthpiece for a libertarian thinktank), and as such any argument against inclusion would be different. So while an SPS like the GLAADAP website more straightforwardly shouldn't be used for a BLP claim, an article in Reason might require attribution even on non-BLP topics because of the non-independence aspect, and probably wouldn't be DUE for a contentious BLP claim that wasn't also in other, independent sources. IMHO. Void if removed (talk) 09:52, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

So, just to be clear - you say that the issue is whether the author and the publisher are the same. Reason's authors obviously work for reason (as do most reporters), so you can't mean that something is self-published if its authors work for the publisher. Therefore, I take it that your position is that if something has a listed author, it is not a WP:SPS under the interpretation you're pushing for. That is to say, if I could point to where GLAAD lists individual authors for papers on its site, you would agree that they are not self-published? Or is your argument that the description of a "magazine" is paramount; papers do not qualify, but if GLAAD were to publish them as a magazine, using the same authors, you would consider them to be independent? More specifically, I guess I'm asking - what do you feel GLAAD would have to do, that it isn't doing currently, to avoid falling under self-published by your definition? --Aquillion (talk) 14:46, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

what do you feel GLAAD would have to do, that it isn't doing currently

IMO the content they create would need to be overseen and published by an independent third party with its own editorial process which GLAAD have no direct control over.

This is what the role of a publisher is, be it in books or academia. News organisations are a special case - but GLAAD isn't a news org, it is an advocacy group.

Something like Reason seems to be a bit of a hard case, and no doubt sometimes such relationships are a sham with no actual separation, but thankfully that isn't the sort of hard case we have to decide here, since we aren't talking about Reason, or a magazine, or a sham publishing front, or the meaning of SPS in general for all time, or even GLAAD's long-form reports, but in fact a specific section of GLAAD's website, which they have total direct control over and which is written by their employees in service of GLAAD's advocacy aims, and is quite clearly self-published, like the vast majority of such websites. Void if removed (talk) 10:10, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

the magazine predates the foundation for starters

Are we seriously going to argue that a guy making photocopies on the university photocopier before the rights were acquired by a bunch of people who liked it that a few years later made a foundation, the part before the making of the foundation is the evidence that it isn't self published? The definition of self-published put forth as part of this discussion seems extremely unconventional, and I do not believe it reasonable to use it unless a widely-advertised RFC explicitly incorporates it in to V. Alpha3031 (t • c) 03:16, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

it is not self-published as the authors are subject to editorial oversight and fact-checking and can't just say whatever they want

From WP:USESPS a self-published source can still have a professional structure in place for deciding whether to publish something.

All that matters is if the authors and the publisher are the same it is self-published - and here, the authors and publisher are the same. And to be absolutely clear that alone isn't to knock GLAAD since A self-published source can be independent, authoritative, high-quality, accurate, fact-checked, and expert-approved.. That might well apply, though didn't seem to weed out plagiarism in this instance. But regardless of overall quality of this resource or GLAAD more generally, and usability as a source in all sorts of ways, the one thing you shouldn't do with an SPS is make BLP claims, and that is precisely what the accountability project is - a self-published collection of claims about living people. Void if removed (talk) 08:51, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

If this is true the exception for books, magazines, and news organisations is patently flawed. Unless we are to believe the incredibly naive idea that none of these are published to sway opinion in anyway. USESPS should be replaced with an essay that actual documents community behaviour. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:09, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Policy is meant to document. The community accepts the use of similar sources in BLPs, and are equally against using self-published sources in BLPs, so these are not seen as self-published and policy should reflect that. As I suggested before this is probably a discussion to be had at WT:V or the village pump. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:24, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

USESPS should be replaced

Which is the crux of it - we have a core policy, which specifically links to an explanatory essay, and by that essay, the page at issue is clearly a WP:SPS. The response of some editors is to argue that no-one pays attention to this and the explanation should be changed to reflect it.

Either the explanation of a core policy is fundamentally wrong and everyone rightly ignores it, or it is right and editors are getting away with ignoring it.

I agree this goes beyond RSN. Void if removed (talk) 13:43, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Essays are not policy, they don't have consensus, and they do not need to be interpreted or over-interpreted poorly either. Your assumptions about GLADD publishing simply don't seem well grounded.Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:02, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Essay are just something bsome editors agree with, they are not policies or guidelines. Anyone can write an essay and some have more general acceptance than others. As there are multiple discussions are RFC results that go against the wording used in USESPS it doesn't have that general acceptance.

I would suggest an RFC to see if the wider community supports the wider definition made by USESPS, otherwise it's a bit worthless. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 06:52, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Agreed that this is a discussion that would be better to have at WP:V or the village pump. I'd keep in mind that it's possible for diverse organizations, including GLAAD, to publish some content that's SPS and other content that's not SPS, in which case some of the organization's publications might be used for BLPs while others can't be. That is, the simple existence of citations from similar organizations on BLP articles doesn't imply that all of their (or GLAAD's) publications are non-SPS. The question here is whether this specific GLAAD Accountability Project page is/isn't SPS. The contents of a GAP page looks like the accumulation of info added over time. Does every new bit of info get independent editorial oversight before it's added? I don't know. FactOrOpinion (talk) 23:32, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

This is the first time in my life I've heard that a self published source can have an independent editorial oversight or independent peer review processes. Since FactOrOpinion added independent to that dot point perhaps they would care to clarify their thinking on the subject? Alpha3031 (t • c) 16:28, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Alpha3031, I'm not sure what I said that you're referring to. Could you quote it? WP:V says that "Self-published material is characterized by the lack of independent reviewers (those without a conflict of interest) validating the reliability of the content," and I'm definitely not saying that a self published source can have an independent editorial oversight or independent peer review processes. If those processes are there, it's not a SPS. FactOrOpinion (talk) 16:59, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying, I expect that it was added in error then. I know it was 4 years ago, so it would be difficult to reconstruct exactly what the people involved thought of it (given I am neither psychic nor in possession of a time machine), but I believe the most likely scenario would be that it was added in error as part of a series of larger edits (See Special:Diff/967230320) and the 70 watchers of that page did not find the difference significant. Therefore, I'd agree that there's no evidence that specific passage of the essay has the consensus of the community. Alpha3031 (t • c) 01:06, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I had no idea that you were referring to something on a different page that I added 4 years ago. Looking it at it now, I'm guessing (totally a guess, as I don't remember) that I added "independent" because those bullet points were supposed to summarize content from WP:RS, where there's a statement about sources that "may lack independent editorial oversight and peer review" and thus not be reliable. The problem might have been that I removed "except for the second one" from "A self-published source can have all of these qualities except for the second one" (because the wording of the second bullet point changed), but I failed to add "except for the last one" after I modified that last one by adding "independent." Or perhaps I should have questioned that last bullet point on the talk page, since WP:RS says that a self-published expert source might be a RS even if there's no outside editing or peer review. Either way, I definitely made a mistake. In an overly-long comment on the talk page, I'd tried to encourage more experienced editors to check my edits, as I wasn't (and am still not) that experienced an editor. No one noticed all this time. Hmph. Thanks for pointing that out. FactOrOpinion (talk) 03:21, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

@FactOrOpinion, you apparently changed "It is published by a reputable publishing house, rather than by the author(s)" to merely "It is published", which includes teenagers posting on Reddit and politicians posting on Twitter. Merely seeing the light of day isn't a pertinent ending for a sentence that begins "a reliable source has the following characteristics:" The purpose of that bullet point was to represent the statement in WP:RS that "self-published sources are largely not acceptable". Perhaps you'd like to go self-revert that part? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:34, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing, I no longer remember why I made that change, but am guessing that it was because:

• It captured the WP:RS prohibition on unpublished work.
• WP:RS allows several kinds of material that are not published by a reputable publishing house (e.g., expert SPS, SPS as sources of information about themselves, dissertations, links to e-commerce pages -- as long as each of these meets certain conditions).

If I add it back in, I'd prefer that the intro line say "a reliable source usually has the following characteristics." FactOrOpinion (talk) 02:45, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

WP:RS allows any kind of published source, under the right circumstances.

Consider:

• reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.
• not self-published
• third-party or independent source
• editorial oversight or peer review processes

{{cite tweet}} is used in tens of thousands of articles. Twitter posts typically have no reputation for fact-checking, a poor reputation for accuracy, they are 100% self-published, they are rarely third-party sources, and they have no editorial oversight or peer review processes. And yet WP:RS accepts them.

This is a list of desirable characteristics, but there is no requirement that any particular source have any of these characteristics. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:24, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I don’t see how this implies that they’re regarded as a reliable watchdog. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 22:15, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Discussion now on WT:V about type in general

Hi all, figured I'd also let everyone still here that isn't watching WT:V know that there is now also a section there, Wikipedia talk:Verifiability § SPS definition so that anyone who wants to continue to add to the discussion on SPS in general can add their input there instead. Alpha3031 (t • c) 13:32, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm also trying to draft an RFC at User:Bluethricecreamman/SPS_RFC based on wording from that section... have not had as much time as I thought to do much with it so far. Would love help/suggestions, feel free to edit or propose your own RFC. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:31, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

An RFC of some kind is needed, as it stands we have an essay that doesn't match community practice and doesn't have affirmative consensus. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 06:48, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Check Your Fact

Check Your Fact (CYF) is a "for-profit subsidiary" of The Daily Caller, the latter being depcrecated source due to the 2019 RfC. This fact-checking website was briefly discussed last month, where there appears to be lack of consensus over it's reliability.

As requested by Animalparty, here is an example of CYF as a source being removed from an article based exclusively on the unreliability of WP:DAILYCALLER (see diff). This is where the issue lies: The RfC failed to question CYF; from searching through the discussion, no-one argued that it was unreliable. I otherwise only found one noticeboard discussion (post-RFC) referenced above that was inconclusive.

Currently the CYF url is categorised as deprecated based on WP:RSPUSES, as this was added by David Gerard in February 2024 (see diff) based on this discussion at RSP (rather than RSN notably). So is it correct that Check Your Fact is deprecated, because of the 2019 RfC? Ie was the RfC about The Daily Caller (the website), or the entity The Daily Caller, Inc. that owns Check Your Fact?

To me it looks like it was specifically about the website, hence there was no discussion over it's subsidiaries. Overall it seems like incorrect "book keeping" to include this url as deprecated when it wasn't discussed here, but maybe I'm mistaken or misunderstood something?

And finally the usual question: Should Check Your Fact be considered generally reliable source for use in articles?

What this discussion isn't, for those quick to jump to conclusions or misinterpret: 1. This isn't about changing an RSP listing, this is about the interpretation of the 2019 RfC. 2. This isn't about the article referenced as a diff, this only serves as an example. Thanks! CNC (talk) 13:27, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

As an update, based on deprecated sources archives, I discovered that CYF is in fact not deprecated, so will boldly remove from RSPUSES for now on that very basis. Whether it should be deprecated is another discussion. CNC (talk) 15:20, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

It's part of Daily Caller and as factual. Why would it get an exemption? - David Gerard (talk) 01:52, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I digree that this wasn't deprecated, it was created as just another URL for Daily Caller content and the source is deprecated not a particular URL it happens to be using. As a general principle going over the same ground because a bad sources find a new outlet would be a waste of time.

Remembering my comment from the last time this came up, at least at first this was no different than the Daily Caller. With it being run by the same staff and using more or less the same content. Over time it appears to have become a bit more separate from its parent organisation, and I could see an argument that it should be now have an exception from the deprecation of the Daily Caller.

As a separate comment 'fact checking' sites are poor sources in general, and I would suggest their use is always attributed. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:48, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

should be deprecated if its part of daily caller Bluethricecreamman (talk) 14:43, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I reversed the removal of the link from RSP - the Daily Caller is presently deprecated whatever URL its content is being served from. If you want to partially reverse this, you'll need an RFC showing consensus to do so (and it's not clear you have the momentum as yet) - David Gerard (talk) 14:58, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

No problem if that's how others see it also, I won't stand in the way of consensus if there are no issues. This discussion has certainly gone a different direction than the previous, but if that's the outcome then so be it. CNC (talk) 16:07, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I will repeat my argument from the prevous stale conversation, and assert that there is no good reason besides "I don't like the parent company" to deprecate Checkyourfact.com. Per WP:NEWSORG, Signals that a news organization engages in fact-checking and has a reputation for accuracy are the publication of corrections and disclosures of conflicts of interest. Checkyourfact.com is a fact-checking source, attested to by the IFCN certification. Its Corrections policy is here. It clearly discloses its ownership (potential conflict of interest) on its About us page. Its Methodology is here. Its staff and editorial board is here. Check Your Fact was awarded a grant in June of this year from the Poynter Institute's IFCN. From casual googling it appears to regularly align with fact-checks by USA Today Politifact and Reuters, [37][38][39][40]. It is true that perhaps Checkyourfact might not fact check every claim Wikipedians might wish it to, but guess what, that same logic applies to Politifact, Reuters, Snopes, and every other fact-checking outlet that has ever existed (check your own biases!). There very well may be few cases where citing Checkyourfact is even warranted (especially if there are a dozen other fact-checking sites that Wikipedians don't hate saying the same thing), but nobody has submitted a lick of hard of evidence for why Checkyourfact should be considered unreliable or deprecated beyond "vibes" and guilt by association. --Animalparty! (talk) 23:21, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

If by guilt by association you mean acknowledging the existence of WP:SOURCEDEF and the fact that the publisher is a factor determining reliability, then sure, let's go with that. On the other hand, is there any actual point to this discussion (i.e., any disputed claim people actually want to use the source in question to support)? I really don't see the point in having a discussion for the sake of discussion (and faffing about RSP listings is essentially that without any actual usage). Like, I know nobody actually reads the instructions, but there's no reason to be so blatant about it. I would oppose the use of either this or the previous discussion (or any discussion not also about an actual issue)) to support any change anywhere, because people should take the effort to point out, with examples, the actual issue if they want substantive discussion over it instead of endless windmilling. Alpha3031 (t • c) 09:32, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

"any disputed claim people actually want to use the source" It's being used in Conspiracy theories about the 2024 Atlantic hurricane season and Jackson Hinkle at present, it's not needed at the latter but looks useful at the former. In the same light of not faffing around, either these references should be removed or CYF be re-considered as marginally reliable at least. Given the content in question, it can't be considered uncontroversial and therefore an unreliable source shouldn't there. CNC (talk) 16:46, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Overall rating (legend/option) for Jewish Chronicle

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The WP:RSP entry is now yellow. Everyone agrees this is fine and wants this section to drop off of RSN. I'm WP:INVOLVED, so if anyone has more to say, feel free to revert. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 15:41, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

---

I have questioned the closing editor of the RfC on the Jewish Chronicle about the retention of the green legend (Generally Reliable in its areas of expertise:) for this publication. More specifically if this truly represents the average views of editors which participated in that RfC. I have NOT questioned any of the text written, so we don't necessarily need to go over old ground again unless there are any further objections. This is purely about the overall interpretation of what has already been written for the labelling.

I've produced a spreadsheet for the 2024 RfC, in which each editors choice of rating is tabulated then counted and averaged to assist this process. As many editors have chosen ratings relating to a wide variety of timescales and subject areas this can only be an approximation. I've separated it into two sections:

Israel/Palestine 'Sometimes ME, the Left, Antisemitism typically from 2015 or 2020' on the left (in which 7 editors chose option 1, 2 editors Option 2, 17.5 editors Option 3 & 8.5 editors option 4) and

'General articles (Some after a cut off date, some no date)' on the right (12 editors option 1, 13.5 editors option 2, 7.5 editors option 3 & 3 editors option 4).

Note, the previous 2021 RfC on antisemitism and the Left was eventually modified to 11 editors Option 1, 1 Editor Option 2, 11 editors option 3. I'm unsure if the disqualifications affected previous RfCs before that. Andromedean (talk) 14:12, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

This is just bad formatting at RSP, clearly JC is not GREL based on RfC close as well as the summary itself. Either there are three listings for JC based on the determined consensus of GREL, NC, and GUNREL, or otherwise just turn it MREL. Striked part of previous comment as realise RSP was never updated post RfC close. Based on discussion elsewhere, have updated to reflect closing summary. [41] Other editors can split the entry, improve the summary, or revert if deemed necessary. CNC (talk) 14:58, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Closers don't necessarily update the RSP, although it is helpful when they do. Interested editor should update it as and when required. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:54, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't like the methodology of weighting Option 4 more than Option 3; Option 4 is not an extra level of unreliability.

That being said anyone can see that RfC was an Option 2 generally at best. I agree with the current WP:RSP formatting of tagging the source as WP:MREL then explaining what those additional considerations are. Specifically, that the source is unreliable on Israel, Palestine, and related topics. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 03:59, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Changing to yellow makes sense to me. (I would have thought this discussion should be at the RSP talk page not here - might be sensible to move it if it continues?) BobFromBrockley (talk) 23:43, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

It already is yellow at RSP, so there isn't much to discuss anymore. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 04:05, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Hopefully someone can archive this discussion as it has been resolved. CNC (talk) 12:04, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Archiving happens automatically 5 days after the last comment. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:42, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I meant archive the discussion not for the section to archived, but nevermind. CNC (talk) 13:51, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

NCERT textbooks

Well while editing about Indian history can I use NCERT textbooks as a reliable source? Edasf (talk) 04:42, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Probably. Text books are generally considered reliable, but more academic sources are preferred for historical details. Context is often important, especially given the controversy over some of the NCERT content. Knowing what content is being supported by the text book, and the details of the text book would be helpful. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:33, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

There is a wide variety of content present in NCERT textbooks - some are well-respected, some less so. A lot depends on what you're using it for, and also on the availability of other sources on the subject. Vanamonde93 (talk) 22:38, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Probably not, per WP:WPNOTRS. NCERT is a tertiary source, and the exeptions do not seem to apply to it. PadFoot (talk) 08:07, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

@PadFoot2008 There are no indications there that a tertiary source is default unreliable unless "exceptions" apply. That section is talking about Wikipedia itself. What are you referring to? PARAKANYAA (talk) 05:34, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Per RS, Wikipedia articles should be based mainly on reliable secondary sources. For tertiary sources, it says

Reputable tertiary sources, such as introductory-level university textbooks, almanacs, and encyclopedias, may be cited.

NCERT is not a university textbook. PadFoot (talk) 05:45, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

@PadFoot2008 ''such as''. The question is whether it is reputable, which is what we are here for. PARAKANYAA (talk) 05:51, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I have doubts as to whether we should be using children's textbooks for writing historical articles on Wikipedia. PadFoot (talk) 06:05, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

@PadFoot2008 Those are reviewed by historians like latest of NCERT was reviewed by historians like, Romila Thapar and Upinder Singh.So might be reliable. Edasf (talk) 06:36, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't dispute that I just disagreed with how you answered it before. PARAKANYAA (talk) 10:40, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Reliability of OneRoof

A previous discussion ([42]) did not generate much feedback.

Oneroof is a real estate website, it is currently used in over 22 articles: [43]

Oneroof's news coverage:[44] consists of reporting on real estate sales their suburbs profile which was also brought up in the discussion has patently false information, for example their suburb profile of Ponsonby, New Zealand states that the earliest housing dates back to 1800-1809, this is obviously untrue as European settlement didn't occur until after 1840: [45]. A similar implausible claim is stated for Herne Bay, New Zealand: [46]

I don't believe this source is reliable nor suitable for Wikipedia but others have disagreed and no consensus has been reached.

Pinging previous participants @AndyTheGrump @Gadfium @Daveosaurus Traumnovelle (talk) 02:56, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I am here after your message to WP:NZWNB. With my research on the Opawa article, I think OneRoof is inaccurate when it comes to their estimates. OneRoof claims that "residential" housing began in 1900 - 1909. However, this is inaccurate because homesteads have been since c. 1850s and opulent residential housing is followed shortly after. I'd also like to mention they categorize Sydenham, New Zealand with housing dating back to the 1800s. This is misinformation because European settlement of the Canterbury Region was largely influenced by brothers William and John Deans in 1843. With that said, I think OneRoof might be somewhat accurate when it comes to more "recently developed" suburbs in the Auckland area specifically. I am using Northpark, New Zealand here as a reference. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 04:35, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Without wasting too much time looking into where OneRoof sources its data I'd guess they source bulk valuation data which has codes for the age of a building and the codes may well lump every house built before 1900 into a single code which OneRoof parses as 1890-1899.

The Deans brothers settled Riccarton, not Sydenham, so it's not surprising that their house and cottage aren't listed under Sydenham. Daveosaurus (talk) 07:25, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I am aware of that and it's inaccurate mentioning Sydenham was settled in the 1800s. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 07:30, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Setting aside the fact that it doesn't feel appropriate to start an entirely new discussion less than a week after the first one, I don't see any issues with using OneRoof in relation to recent information or content on the real estate market of a suburb (for example, how some of the references are for a suburb's average house price). The issues here seem to be mostly in relation to the early settlement dates, which should be treated with caution (potentially along with other more historical information), but I don't think it's to the point of OneRoof as a whole being unreliable. Turnagra (talk) 03:06, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

If their data is unreliable for one thing what evidence do we have to suggest the rest of it is accurate and reliable? Traumnovelle (talk) 06:29, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I think there have been enough examples given of the earliest housing dates being inaccurate that we should avoid using OneRoof as a reference for that. It is still appropriate to use for the decade most of the housing in an area was built.-Gadfium (talk) 03:18, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Why would it be appropriate for the latter? If the data is wrong for the former what evidence suggests the rest of it isn't unreliable? Traumnovelle (talk) 06:29, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Do you have any evidence of reliability for that particular data? Traumnovelle (talk) 07:28, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

A new user asks a question using RFA as an example

A few days ago, I asked on WP:Help desk whether a non-political page that quoted an expert's speech was credible. I received some friendly responses, one of which recommended that I learn more and consult here. I am very grateful to them. These days I have carefully read some discussion pages, but there are some situations that I may not understand yet. I have always been a fan of Radio Free Asia, so I would like to ask a question based on it. Please give me some advice :

I have consulted a social news a few days before on WP:Help desk. This news shows the personal opinion of an "expert" who claims himself (maybe herself) on Twitter, and was identified by Twitter nickname. The news does not seem to simply list the reactions of people on Internet, but is actually seeking the opinion of this anonymous "expert". Since Twitter has been classified as "Deprecated", is this person's expert status reliable? Will links like this affect the credibility of Radio Free Asia?

Thanks everyone for your guidance!--HelenAtkinson2002 (talk) 07:12, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

How Wikipedia classifies sources only applies to Wikipedia. This is also true of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, otherwise the policy on no original research would ban the entire scientific endeavour.

I expect that RFA are only using the person twitter handle for anonymity, their article doesn't say they got the information from twitter - they just identified their source using a twitter handle. News organisation don't have to simply list people reactions, investigative journalism would actually be preferred.

There was an RFC on RFA in 2021 that resulted in it being considered generally reliable and a further discussion in 2022 that backed that consensus. I don't see that this effects their credibility. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 07:39, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your answer. What you mentioned may be WP:V, which is indeed very important. It allows me to understand more. In order to write more qualified articles in the future, I have further doubts: Can untrusted sources be cited in articles after being relayed by credible sources? Seeking expert endorsements is a way to prove that one's own content is more authoritative, but if the expert is anonymous in social or science content, can such authority be guaranteed for a certain report? (Political "insiders" and "anonymous experts" are for their own personal safety, which is a completely different situation. I can fully understand this.) HelenAtkinson2002 (talk) 02:23, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Can untrusted sources be cited in articles after being relayed by credible sources? Short answer yes. We trust that the source has done it's due diligence and confirmed it's report. If it relates to science, history or some other academic concerns then obviously academic sources are preferred.

which is a completely different situation is it? RFA have obviously decided not to publish tthe persons name, can anyone but RFA be sure why they haven't. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:15, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply! The first question is basically no longer a question, but the second question may take some time for me to digest. I guess in the short term, I will try to avoid similar links when writing articles. The articles I will try to write in the English Wikipedia next should focus on East Asian history and architecture, which may involve news about the follow-up of events or building repairs. I would like to inquire, apart from the funder, is there any way to quickly identify the reliability of the media which not included in the reliable source list yet (assuming that the source is not the only source of content for a certain event)? HelenAtkinson2002 (talk) 14:16, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Ultimately the list are there to avoid discussing the same source repeatedly, editors are meant to judge sources using their own good judgement and the relevant policies and guidelines. In general that's WP: Verification and WP:Reliable Sources, although there's further advice for specific subjects (like medicinal details or articles about living people). If it's a website or newssite check it's about us page, whether it has an editorial policy page, and it's advertised with us page. The last can sometimes highlight issue with advertorial publishing. Search to see if other known reliable sources discuss the source.

There are also some scrips that will highlight references based on past discussions, the two most commonly used are User:Headbomb/unreliable or User:Novem Linguae/Scripts/CiteHighlighter.

If you're unsure or have any other questions simply come back here and ask. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 15:09, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your suggestion. I will try to use the little tool you provided (I really haven't been exposed to any complicated programming before). By the way, I have seen some media that were very trusted at first, but were suppressed later (such as Epochtimes); but I have basically not seen any media that have improved their ratings from very poor ones. I fully understand the reason for the latter, but generally speaking, what are the factors that lead to the former? HelenAtkinson2002 (talk) 15:39, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

One important factor is how other known reliable media reports on the source. From WP:SOURCES Base articles on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy and WP:NOTRELIABLE Questionable sources are those that have a poor reputation for checking the facts. If a sources reporting is being called into question, it may start a discussion. This doesn't apply to a single issue or bad article, but a tend that shows the source has problems. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:42, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

All people are biased in one way or another, checking how external media views the source can help alleviate that. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:43, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

It seems a bit advanced, and I need some time to understand your suggestions. Thank you again!--HelenAtkinson2002 (talk) 09:43, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I would like to ask another question here: If I find that some of the cited media links are far from the objective facts (such as scientific information), but the links I plan to replace is "No consensus" or have not been determined or rated, will such editing be allowed? Will the relevant edits be brought up for discussion? Thanks!--HelenAtkinson2002 (talk) 09:43, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Your edits are "allowed", see WP:BOLD, but that doesn't mean they can't be reverted. Another editor may object to you edits for many different reason, not just because of reliability. I find the best option is to discuss it with the other editor (see WP:BOLD, revert, discuss). -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 10:15, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Request to Deprecate "Inside the Magic"

In the past, Inside the Magic was a website that mainly discussed Disney theme parks. It even had a reputable podcast that lasted until 2014. However, in more recent years, the website has become more click-baity. The r/Disney Subreddit has banned the website on December 18, 2023 due to its "'Unreliability', 'Vague, intentionally misleading, or patently false clickbait titles', 'Unsourced rumors/ flat out making up stories for clicks', 'Misinformation', and 'Other drama'". I want to highlight this source because it has been used in a lot of Wikipedia articles - and yet the site [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_229#Inside_the_Magic was last discussed here in 2017 and September 2024.

For example, the website spread the rumor that Rachel Zegler was dropped out of the upcoming Snow White film. It was discussed in the Snow White Talk Page Archive. The website also spread the rumor that Disney+ would be shut down, as discussed in the Disney+ Talk Page Archive. Finally, the site was also brought up in several talk pages, including for Strange World (archive), as well as the Political Views of J.K. Rowling Talk Page as "not rated in terms of reliability".

Thus, I feel confident to depricate "Inside the Magic" as a source, especially articles published within the last couple of years. One more thing, have another clickbaity article: She-Hulk Recast for Marvel’s New Avengers Project After Season 2 Canceled. As it turns out, it was for LEGO Marvel Avengers: Mission Demolition, where ALL of the Marvel cast are "recast". This includes John Stamos as Iron Man instead of Robert Downey Jr. Yoshiman6464 ^♫🥚 16:40, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Just to note that both project Film/Marvel Cinematic Universe task force and project Amusement Parks already class this as unreliable.

I don't know if it's necessary to deprecate it, and the opinions of Reddit users hold no weight, but its obviously unreliable. Past discussions have got hung up in whether this is a blog, it's not, but I don't think it's an important issue. The fact they behave like a clickbait farm, and have a very poor reputation for fact checking or accuracy, is enough to say they're unreliable. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:14, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

A source does not have to be listed at WP:RSP to be reliable or unreliable. RSP is not meant to be a comprehensive listing of sources even though some editors are treating it as such. If virtually everyone can tell a source is unreliable, it does not need an RSP listing. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 17:25, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Is the following statement WP:RSOPINION?

Hello. We are stuck in a disputation where the other side, in my view, is sabotaging the edit for political reasons (I will lay down). I argued that my edit is WP:RSOPINION but they state that the source is not reliable and the edit is irrelevant to WP:RSOPINION. I am here to ask for external parties. Here is the edit and the sources (Text that is in contention is in bold and underlined):

Buniyatov writes that the descendants of Khwarazmians call themselves Turkmens and they reside in the Musul and Kirkuk, the North of Iraq. Buniyatov further mentions that the descendants of Khwarazmians that call themselves Turkmens are referred to as Khurzumlular in Anatolia and there are 8 villages in Manisa, Turkey where Khurzumlular live as society. The official website of the Gölhisar District Governorship also talk of the local Turkmens being descendants of Khwarazmshahs.

The source: Buniyatov, Z. The State of Khwarazmshah-Anushteginids. 1097—1231 М., 1986. page 159.

What is more interesting is that, the article we have this disputation is still having the source I cited here, the source adversaries claim that "unreliable", even for narrating author's opinion.

Note that, I am asking if that part is RS:OPINION or not. I am not asking if it warrants inclusion into the article or if it is notable or reliable for factual claims. I am using the source to re-narrate the author's view. I told the adversaries that they can oppose me under due credit (due weight) criteria and if they want I can add more sources that cover the same topic but re-iterated that the edit is WP:RSOPINION but they are ignoring it stating that the source is not reliable as a statement as author's opinion.

As for political agenda part: I know it from my native wiki (Turkish) that the empire is claimed by both Turkmens and Uzbeks. Turkmens and Uzbeks often fight in our Wiki to claim that the Empire is theirs. This is the reason I thought they are sabotaging my edit: they might be from the other side of the contention.--176.88.165.232 (talk) 19:02, 5 November 2024 (UTC) 176.88.165.232 (talk) 19:02, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Note: I shall also state that I later realited that I was using different publication of the same book. Page may vary but that can be updated. What the other side doing is that they are dismissing the book and the edit, stating it is not WP:RSOPINION, stating that the book is not reliable for author's opinion. --176.88.165.232 (talk) 19:26, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

This noticeboard is not a general forum, but only for discussing the reliability of sources, so I'm going to ignore your comments on user conduct. I would warn you though that assuming good faith is always the best option.

WP:RSOPINION says Some sources may be considered reliable for statements as to their author's opinion, so it's not an immediately given that all such sources will be reliable for opinion. If the author is unreliable then it would follow that their opinion is also unreliable. Basically, simply adding "So-and-so said" doesn't sidestep reliability. Buniyatov specifically has obviously received some harsh criticism, I would be hesitant to consider them reliable.

Secondarily note even if it is reliable for the author opinion that doesn't mean it has to be included, all content that is included must be verifiable but verification doesn't guarantee inclusion. From the articles talk page it appears the other editors are against inclusion, so whether it's reliable or unreliable may not matter. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:16, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for participating. Let us first settle if the statement I contributed is WP:RSOPINION (even if the author is unreliable).

Narrating certain author's opinion by quoting from their own book is WP:RSOPINION, right? No matter if the author is reliable or not, talk about the format of the text: is that WP:RSOPINION as it is from the book of the author.

While I grant that the author could be unreliable, my question here is if the format of the statement meets WP:RSOPINION. As I noted already, IIRC, in our first ever talk-page discussion, I said them "you could oppose this under due credit criteria". As the author might be unreliable, my initial edit came with an official website statement of a district governorship which can corraborate the seemingly-unreliable author + I told them that I can add more from different source.

But please, let us settle down this issue first: is that edit WP:RSOPINION? Note again: I am not arguing RSOPINION warrants icnlusion or sufficient to be included or warrants reliability. 176.88.165.232 (talk) 20:34, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

As I said RSOPINION isn't a free pass, and neither is changing a statement from a factual statement in wikivoice to ab attributed opinion. If an author is not reliable on a subject, then that authors opinion is also unreliable on that subject for the purposes of RSOPINION.

This may depend on context. For a silly example David Ike's opinion that the British royal family are lizard people wouldn't be reliable in the article about the British royal family, but could be reliable to show his own opinions in the article about David Ike. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:17, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I have re-iterated many times that I am not asking if it warrants inclusion into the article. All I asked is if that statement is RSOPINION or not: why do people avoid answering it?

Why not answer: "no, it is not RSOPINION. because such and such" or "yes, it is RSOPINION but it lacks due weight/notability" etc?

No one has answered it explicitly and verbatimly.

Your example of David Ike is RSOPINION but including his view into the royal family article would be subject of due weight and proportional representation issue but not reliability issue if his opinion is being narrated. The only issue would be if it is worth putting his opinion into the article. --176.88.165.232 (talk) 22:50, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I have not avoided answering it, I have answered not twice. I'll answer it again, the opinion of an author who is not reliable on a subject is not reliable. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:12, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

You have not answered: the question was not reliability of an opinion and RSOPINION is not about reliability of an opinion but reliability of source. --176.88.165.232 (talk) 15:46, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I've given my opinion on the situation, I'll leave it and see if anyone else has one. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:05, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

My take on it is that RSOPINION says "Some sources may be considered reliable for statements as to their author's opinion, but not for statements asserted as fact." So the first question is: is the claim that you're attributing to the author a factual issue (i.e., it has a true or false assessment) or is it instead non-factual (a matter of opinion, where you'd say "I share that view" rather than "that's true" or "that's false"). The information that you've attributed to Buniyatov looks to me like it's true or false, so RSOPINION doesn't apply. That you attribute the claim to Buniyatov doesn't turn it into an opinion. Either Buniyatov is a reliable source for the factual claim or he isn't. FactOrOpinion (talk) 23:01, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Unbelievable. I do hope you will accept your previously pined for fifth opinion, and at least ensure that this timesink for everyone trying to explain this to you actually had a point.Remsense ‥ 论 23:11, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

but my edit was narrating author's opinion: so, it was RSOPINION. The true or false part of that statement is if it is fact that Buniyatov said those statement. That I attribute Buniyatov's opinion into Buniyatov's book turns it into RSOPINION. --176.88.165.232 (talk) 05:56, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, each editor that has taken the time to reply to you so far has explained that your interpretation of WP:RSOPINION is plainly wrong, for more or less the same reasons.

I will be blunt. I want a yes or no answer here: is it at all possible for you to acknowledge merit in a response that doesn't agree with your premise here? I want you to state that upfront, because others shouldn't have to spend even more time articulating replies to you, trying to point out what we see as the same glaring errors in your reasoning, if you are only going to meaningfully engage when you think someone agrees with you. That is not fair. Remsense ‥ 论 09:03, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that is possible and happened: This edit of mine where I conceded a point to Airshipjungleman29 is an example, out of many.

It is your turn: I ask you the same question. I want a yes or no answer, with an example if possible. 176.88.165.232 (talk) 18:41, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

That's not what I'm asking about. I want you to divulge whether you are capable of moving on from your central premise at any point, or if you will argue it (not details like you've linked) in the same manner no matter how many editors tell you you're wrong. I don't have that problem, but I would certainly be given new information to ponder if a single other person agreed with you and added new perspectives to consider. Remsense ‥ 论 21:56, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

While I think that counts for what you asked, I can answer again: In that example, I have moved from my central premise: I immediately acknowledged that if anything, that edit of mine could go into another article, not the one I made that edit to.

As for "no matter how many editors tell you you're wrong", not a single one of you elaborate your answers: you just dissmiss it, misinterpolating Wikipolicies: when I asked you (not just you alone, all 4-5 of you) to quote, you evade the question. where I have been quoting regularly. Here again, some of them:

1. "If the statement is not authoritative, attribute the opinion to the author in the text of the article and do not represent it as fact. "
2. "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (invited op-eds and letters to the editor from notable figures) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact"

176.88.165.232 (talk) 17:36, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

but my edit was narrating author's opinion No, your edit was describing the author's T/F statement, not his opinion. If John claims that 2+2=5, that's not John's opinion, that's John's false claim. (2+2=5) is false. (John said that 2+2=5) is true. Neither statement in parentheses is an opinion. Attributing a T/F statement to someone doesn't turn it into an opinion. FactOrOpinion (talk) 15:59, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

No, my edit was describing author's opinion. Your mistake is that you think facts (T/F statements) and opinions are intrinsically antonyms while they are not: you can have an opinion that also is a fact or an opinion that is not a fact or a fact that is not an opinion --176.88.165.232 (talk) 18:46, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

You know what, I'm really going to put my foot down here. Literally every statement you want to ascribe to Buniyatov is a statement of fact that he is making, not his opinion:

• Either the descendants of Khwarazmians call themselves Turkmens, or they do not.
• Either they reside in the Musul and Kirkuk, or they do not.
• Either the descendants of Khwarazmians that call themselves Turkmens are referred to as Khurzumlular in Anatolia, or they are not.
• Either there are 8 villages in Manisa, Turkey where Khurzumlular live, or there are not.

Please acknowledge that these are statements of fact, that they can be empirically determined to be true or false, and that there is nothing subjective or abstract about them. You attributing them to an individual means they are attributed statements of fact, and not opinions. Remsense ‥ 论 22:03, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

You know what, I am really going to put my foot down here. Literally, every statement you want to present as factual is actually opinional:

• Either Buniyatov wrote that the descendants of Khwarazmians call themselves Turkmens, or he did not write.
• Either Buniyatov wrote that they reside in the Musul and Kirkuk, or he did not write.
• Either Buniyatov wrote that the descendants of Khwarazmians that call themselves Turkmens are referred to as Khurzumlular in Anatolia, or he did not write.
• Either Buniyatov wrote that there are 8 villages in Manisa, Turkey where Khurzumlular live, or he did not write.

Please, acknowledge that these statements attributed to Buniyatov is really by him or not.

As for the rest of your mistake, the one that strikes the most is the following part: these are statements of fact, that they can be empirically determined to be true or false - Inclusion into Wiki does not require the text to be a statement of fact that can be empirically determined to be true or false. Quick demo: from the same article, I will list just 1 sentence either have it deleted or prove it empirically: "Gurganj is a very beautiful city, surrounded by the attention of angels who represent the city in paradise just like a bride in a groom's house."

So, stick to your persistence and delete it, please or just acknowledge what you are doing is biased selection --176.88.165.232 (talk) 17:46, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Also, WP:NEWSOPED also debunks your mistake: "If the statement is not authoritative, attribute the opinion to the author in the text of the article and do not represent it as fact. " As well as "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (invited op-eds and letters to the editor from notable figures) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact"

Even biased sources can in some contexts be included: WP:BIASED 176.88.165.232 (talk) 18:51, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

These are statements of fact that can be empirically determined to be true or false, not editorial analysis or opinion. Remsense ‥ 论 22:04, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

you think facts (T/F statements) and opinions are intrinsically antonyms No, I don't. Among other things, "fact" is not the same as "T/F statement". If a statement is false, or if the truth-value is not known, it's definitely not a fact, though some might mistakenly treat it as a fact. I also don't treat "a factual issue" (in my first comment) as a synonym for "a fact." As for your quotes, they come from a section titled "Editorial and opinion commentary." To be clear, an editorial/opinion piece generally consists of several paragraphs, and those paragraphs might include some facts along with the author's opinions. And Buniyatov's book wasn't published as WP:NEWSOPED, so that section doesn't apply here. Even biased sources can in some contexts be included. Yup. But that doesn't imply that this source can be. FactOrOpinion (talk) 22:21, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

(I'm suddenly wondering whether your username is going to help or hurt matters here.) Remsense ‥ 论 22:26, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

The IP editor has had a (what I take from reading the talk page) fifth and sixth opinion on the subject. I don't believe any further input will help. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 01:27, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

These are the statements of fact that can be empirically determined to be true of false:

• Buniyatov wrote that the descendants of Khwarezmians identify themselves as Turkmens: True or False?

176.88.165.232 (talk) 19:54, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Unless I read the book, I have no way of determining whether "Buniyatov wrote that the descendants of Khwarezmians identify themselves as Turkmens" is true or is instead false, and I'm certainly not going to go get a copy of the book and read it simply because you want me to determine the truth-value of your claim. Since I know nothing about the Khwarazmian Empire, I also can't say whether "the descendants of Khwarezmians identify themselves as Turkmens" is true or is instead false. What I do know is that whatever the truth-value of those two quoted statements, neither is an opinion. I already pointed out: Attributing a T/F statement to someone doesn't turn it into an opinion. FactOrOpinion (talk) 21:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

You actually have not read Wikipolicies, have you? Even WP:NEWSOPED applies here as WP:RSOPINION clearly state the following: A prime example of this is opinion pieces in mainstream newspapers. RSOPINION overlaps with NEWSOPED and others.

Buniyatov's book does not need to be NEWSOPED as the mention of newsoped was not for Buniyatov's book but for your assertions of T/F or opinion sentences being included with reliable sources. --176.88.165.232 (talk) 20:06, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I've read the relevant policy, and it seems I understand it better than you do. Even WP:NEWSOPED applies here No, it doesn't; it only applies to editorial and opinion commentary in news publications, and that's not what we're talking about. RSOPINION overlaps with NEWSOPED Perhaps you don't understand sets well enough. If {A} is a subset of {B}, that does not imply that the features that characterize all of the elements of {A} also characterize all of the elements of {B}. More to the point, as I already pointed out to you, That you attribute the [T/F] claim to Buniyatov doesn't turn it into an opinion, so WP:RSOPINION doesn't apply here either. your assertions of T/F or opinion sentences being included with reliable sources I have no idea what assertions of mine you're talking about, since you didn't quote them. A reminder: you titled this section "Is the following statement WP:RSOPINION?" You've had several people tell you "no." At this point, this is a case of WP:LISTEN FactOrOpinion (talk) 21:49, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

References

What does everyone think about the Times of Israel?

The Times of Israel has published the same faked op-eds as the Jerusalem Post.[47] They also promoted the dead babies hoax.[48] Is it unreliable? Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 19:56, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Nope, this is standard when sources are wrong territory, with the source remaining reliable. It’s just often less objected to due to its milder views, which do not impact reliability either way. FortunateSons (talk) 20:03, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

seems we’ve discussed this to death already. not much has changed. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:11, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Being wrong or making mistakes is far less important than how a source reacts to such instances. Have other sources reported critically on TOI's journalism? -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:18, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Relevant discussion at

→ Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 442#Stop using The Times of Israel as a source for Israel-Palestine conflict news. → Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 192#Times of Israel

CNC (talk) 22:28, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

In contrast to JP, ToI did not claim to have verified images themselves, but rather reported on Netanyahu's office; and anyway that was not the only reason that JP's reliability was questioned.

Notably, ToI rarely has investigative journalism reports, and is rather a magnifier of other published reports, so its claims are almost always attributed, but, ofcourse, in a heavily biased phrasing. ToI is neither reliable nor unreliable, its claims should rather be scrutinized and cross-referenced, and its biased phrasing almost always avoided.

JP is a different story. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:22, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss: So it's WP:MREL? Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 16:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

If TOI gets downgraded, what happens to Wiki articles that use it as a source? Editors used two articles from TOI ~12 times for Killing of David Ben Avraham, which was an incident where a Palestinian man who came from a family who saved many Jews during the 1929 Hebron massacre and who converted to Judaism was shot and killed by an Israeli reservist. Arutz Sheva wrote that he was shot in the lower body, but I think Makeandtoss said on the Talk page that Arutz Sheva was not as reliable as TOI so we didn’t use Arutz Sheva or that detail in the article. We used TOI, which had the video of Ben Avraham. TOI was one of the larger news sources that reported on this story multiple times. It was ignored by Western sources like BBC. Al Jazeera didn’t even publish any news article on this Palestinian death. Wafflefrites (talk) 01:35, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

To put things in some sort of perspective and given the recent discussion, I see no reason to change the current rating. If otoh, the only point of this question is to somehow demonstrate that the JP is also reliable, then I wouldn't accept that at all, ToI is definitely a step up from JP. Selfstudier (talk) 13:22, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

From what I can tell at the Jerusalem Post RfC, there are two types of non WP:GREL !vote. One type of !vote argues the Jerusalem Post is WP:MREL because it's not the best Israeli newspaper. I agreed that ToI is definitely a step up from JP (though not with the MREL !vote), so that is not the WP:POINT of this thread. The other type of vote argues for unreliability/deprecation, full stop, based on a few stories.

The reason I'm starting this thread is to see if anyone now believes the Times of Israel is unreliable for the second reason. CNC has linked a thread where many others have made those claims, but Makeandtoss is the only person here who says the TOI is anything other than generally reliable. It's interesting to see that there are people that are really advocating for a downgrade of the Times of Israel for generally the same reasons as the Jerusalem Post. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 21:46, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Times of Israel is a cut above the Jerusalem Post in terms of overall objectivity and quality. The decapitated baby hoax claims (which was initially treated uncritically by many major Israeli newspapers) is a classic example of why breaking news coverage of atrocities must be considered with extra caution. Hemiauchenia (talk) 01:41, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Its a paper of quality and I don't think that any of this changes that... Op-eds aren't a reliability concern and breaking news turning out not to be entirely accurate is pretty normal. When it comes to the Israeli–Palestinian conflict they often have a biased perspective, but not egregiously so. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:58, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Japanese-language sources

Does anyone know if these sources are credible? Here are example articles from each of these sources:

• Eigeki
• Natalie
• Musical Theater Japan
• Toho Stage

Thanks. Wolfdog (talk) 20:16, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

About Natalie. It is often used by Anime News Network as source of it's news. here is an example. So, I believe it was generally reliable. Warm Regards, Miminity (Talk?) (me contribs) 01:25, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

About Eigeki, It looks like it is owned by Shochiku so might be a reliable source. No comment on Musical Theater Japan. Toho Stage looks like it was owned by Toho so might be a reliable source. Warm Regards, Miminity (Talk?) (me contribs) 04:16, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Bruce Paltrow

User:Jaydoggmarco is arguing that the sources used for this reverted edit[49] can't be used for the claim about Dwight Schulz as the source is Ben Shapiro's book. I'm not convinced, but of course I could be wrong. Doug Weller talk 09:04, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

We the Hollywood Reporter reporting on a press release for a book by Ben Shapiro, in which Shapiro tells of an anecdote that Paltrow said this about Schultz. I haven't been able to access a copy of Primetime propaganda, the book by Shapiro, so I can't confirm the details within it. I've also been unable to find the associated video that the Hollywood Reporter talks of, but it's been 13 years and is likely lost. If this was a BLP I would say no, but it isn't difficult to find this reported elsewhere and Paltrow has been dead for 20 years. Deadline for instance [50] report the same, but again sourced to to Shapiro.

I would suggest it might be reliable with attribution, all the sources say this is not from them but attribute it to Shapiro and I've been unable to find any sources other than Shapiro to back it up. Shapiro is apparently sourcing this to a video or interview of Paltrow, but not being able to collaborate that we're left with relying on Shapiro. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

@ActivelyDisinterested So should "Paltrow identified himself as a Democrat. He reportedly refused to cast Dwight Schultz" be reworded? Thanks. Doug Weller talk 15:26, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Certainly the Schultz part should be something like "Ben Shapiro, in Primetime propaganda, reported that Paltrow refused to cast Dwight Schultz...". It could be argued whether Shapiro isn't a reliable source for such things, which is why I was only a maybe on it.

I don't think the Democrat part is an issue, as it doesn't appear controversial. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 15:35, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

There's a video on YouTube about his political beliefs, if better sourcing can be found it would make a good addition to his article. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 14:27, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Psoy Korolenko

Are these sources sufficiently reliable to demonstrate notability for this musician? I found a bunch of great non-SIGCOV and interview sources but those don’t demonstrate notability. Thanks.
https://forward.com/culture/310193/inside-the-mad-yiddish-world-of-psoy-korolenjo/
https://forward.com/culture/151796/psoy-korolenkos-21st-century-humor/
https://theworld.org/stories/2017/02/21/russian-musician-pavel-lion-kind-cross-between-dostoevsky-and-weird-al
postleft on mobile! 15:01, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

The Forward is generally reliable, and The World appears to be the same. No opinion on SIGCOV or notability, as those are not strictly RS matters, but these sources could only help. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 15:47, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Is Building America's Future an rs for anything?

Eg[51] Doug Weller talk 15:24, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Outside of ABOUTSELF comments in their own article, strong 'no', and I would view any ABOUTSELF comments with a critical eye per points one and four. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 15:51, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

On the specifics the polling is done by P2/Insights[52], but I can't find any details of them doing other polling. They seem to be a public affairs company that regularly appear on Fox News as a advocacy group. None of that necessary makes them unreliable, but it also doesn't make them a polling company. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:01, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Grant Hammond

I am using https://www.granthammond.com/ as a source in the now-declined Draft:Giarratana Development to merely show that Giarratana was the developer behind a project. He makes articles about real estate in Nashville since at least 2002 and won several awards from Realty Executives and quoted by multiple newspapers, including the LA Times according to the home page. I am also pretty sure the articles are not sponsored, so is this a good source? Articles I used: [53][54][55][56] King airaglub (talk) 15:52, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

It would be a lot easier if he listed links to the articles in those newspapers. His website would be a self-published source, so for reliability you should be looking for him to be a recognised expert who has been previously published in the field by other reliable sources or that he's cited as an expert in other publications. Being regularly cited as an expert in newspaper would make him reliable, but where I can see him quoted in news sources he being quoted as the developer of a project not an expert on development.

Remember that Giarratana can be used as a referenced on what projects they have developed, primary sources are allowed within reason. It wouldn't add to notability, but it would be reliable for referencing. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:31, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Giarratana would be a non-independent source here, it isn't an issue of primacy. Traumnovelle (talk) 07:33, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

For verification purposes it's WP:PRIMARY, for notability it's not WP:INDEPENDENT, they're different subjects. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 10:37, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Real America's Voice

So I just found out about the existence of Real America's Voice. I don't know much about it, but it looks to be a far-right news network along the same lines as One America News Network and Newsmax, both of which have long since been deprecated. Has this network ever been brought up in this noticeboard before? 100.7.34.111 (talk) 15:54, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

No previous discussions on this board. It's cited in around 17 articles.[57] Schazjmd (talk) 16:03, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Note that americasvoice.org and americasvoice.news appear to be very different organisations. Real America's Voice, americasvoice.news, is only used in 7 articles[58], and only five times as a reference.

Sources generally aren't discussed unless there is a dispute over them. There's a Washington Post article that's rather critical of them[59], with ex-employees stated as saying it is a propaganda outlet. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:12, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Doing a deep-dive into the five:

1. Pesach Wolicki cites Real America's Voice for the statement that he has a program on Real America's Voice (I'm dubious that he meets WP:BLP guidelines for notability as a lot of the sources used here are just "this guy is in this thing on our website" sorts of sources - like literally spotify is a source here. But the problem isn't that citation.
2. It's used similarly in Donna Fiducia in a section that is pure WP:PROMO and should be deleted in total until someone can write something that isn't obvious ad copy.
3. Same story again with Gina Loudon - the Real America's Voice citation is for her having a show with Real America's Voice.
4. It's use on Salih Hudayar is to comment on things that he said to Steve Bannon as a guest on Bannon's show on Real America's Voice.
5. It is cited on Real America's Voice to indicate that Ted Nugent has a show on the channel.

There appears to be a pervasive use of the website only to confirm that various minor conservative celebrities are participants in the website. It is probably reliable for all of these bromine statements. There is a question about what, if any, of these statements meet WP:DUE standards for inclusion. Simonm223 (talk) 17:34, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Kotaku and Citeogenesis

Kotaku is used to support the claim that A black samurai inspired by Yasuke, named Nagoriyuki, appears in Arc System Works' 2021 fighting game Guilty Gear Strive. Normally, I would think a gaming site would be appropriate for a claim about a game. My main concern is that the Kotaku article links to Wikipedia, perhaps that is the journalist's source. The character also appears to have little in common with Yasuke. Article:[60]https://web.archive.org/web/20230722195924/https://kotaku.com/guilty-gear-strive-s-vampire-samurai-says-black-lives-m-1847177569 Tinynanorobots (talk) 16:50, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Please discuss on the Yasuke or Guilty Gear Strive talk page first.

In general, if they link to Wikipedia to support their claim, you probably can't use that article. Unless there is a pattern of them doing it, Kotaku is generally allowed otherwise. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:58, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't use the Kotaku article for details about Yasuke, as it does appear to use Wikipedia as the source for those details (specifically this part a real-life African immigrant to Japan who became a samurai during the Sengoku period). But in the Yasuke article it is only used to support that Nagoriyuki is inspired by Yasuke, which isn't sourced from Wikipedia. For details about Nagoriyuki it's as reliable as any over Kotaku article. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:14, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

... yeah, there's probably a wikipedia essay out there somewhere about circularity of sources or something with wikipedia, right? and with AI-generated content, its all probs supercharged. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 17:21, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

WP:CIRCULAR. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:39, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

It is probably fine for the claim given. It only appears to be citing Wikipedia for the historical information and not the video game information. Traumnovelle (talk) 07:31, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Conflicting death dates on Legacy.com

Mike Haffner recently died, and a reliable source announced his death on October 31, but did not explicitly specify an exact death date.[61] Legacy.com has two pages with conflicting death dates. At https://www.legacy.com/news/celebrity-deaths/mike-haffner-1942-2024-former-broncos-receiver-and-broadcaster/ (published Nov 1), it says he died on October 31, which one might suspect is just assuming that the report date is the same as the death date. At https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/legacyremembers/michael-haffner-obituary?id=56719788 (published Nov 6), it says he died on Oct 22.

Is there an objective process for determining which, if any, of Legacy.com's pages would have a date that can be assumed is reliable? I can come up with a theory, but would rather rely on regular users' insights. —Bagumba (talk) 18:05, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

So, the first one is an aggregated article made in the immediacy of his death by Legacy. The second is his actual obituary that the University of California Los Angeles put together that was published yesterday. The aggregated article is one they generally put out for celebrities/athletes and shows up the day the death is announced. Kazuo Umezu for example. These also generally rely on the social media postings about one's passing. Comes in handy if there's no current sources to utilize, but the obituary doesn't serve to conflict information. The date of death wasn't known when his death was reported, the aggregate source made the assumption based on the 31st being the day the death was announced.

So is the URL format the distinguisher e.g. "celebrity-deaths" vs "obituaries". Or one page saying "NEWS OBITUARIES" vs the other with a "Send Flowers", "Guessbook", or "Make a Donation"? Is this consistent? —Bagumba (talk) 18:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Was updating my initial comment, it may answer this. But generally the aggregate source is Legacy themselves participating in reporting on the death. Not sure the exact relation of the obituaries in regards to if they're working with the funeral home/university to help with flowers or donations. But is is UCLA publishing a obituary through Legacy. Legacy/Dignity Memorial/Tribute Archive tend to work together with participating funeral homes or universities to help an obituary circulate more broadly. Or a family can submit an obituary directly themselves. Rusted AutoParts 18:39, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

@Rusted AutoParts: I saw that UCLA link, but it has the label "About", which isn't obvious that it has a role in the publishing. If I click on that link, it says "Legacy.com is not affiliated with University of California Los Angeles." —Bagumba (talk) 19:18, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

They probably don't have a partnership through them then, But with UCLA being cited, it's them submitting that obituary. Rusted AutoParts 19:26, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

But is it UCLA the academic institution or is it perhaps a UCLA alumni network? Is this cited somewhere? —Bagumba (talk) 19:38, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

It's certainly a department within UCLA to handle obituaries. I think there's a smidge too much overthinking on this. The aggregate source is to be discarded as it's not a proper obituary. Rusted AutoParts 19:41, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Note: There is no reason at all to believe either Legacy obituary is produced by UCLA. Legacy often includes links to institutions or places associated with the subject. See for example the "Abouts" at Raymond Leslie White. "Legacy Remembers" seems to be a self-published outlet of Legacy.com, which also hosts family-submitted obituaries printed in newspapers. The Legacy News obit has an attributed author who is independent from the subject, but I don't think any source from Legacy.com are particularly great sources that rise to WP:RS, although may be usable on occasion for uncontroversial primary claims. --Animalparty! (talk) 18:48, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Is Royal Ark actually a deprecated source?

I am reviewing the Mohammad Shah Qajar article for GAN and found out that Royal Ark by Christopher Buyers, link [62], has the most complete genealogy. Trying to cite it results in a warning that the website is a deprecated source. However, I couldn't find it listed at Wikipedia:Deprecated sources or at List of fake news websites. Therefore is Royal Ark actually a deprecated and unreliable source? The website has been cited in a Syracuse University Press publication, link [63]; in a Taylor & Francis publication, link [64]; in a Brill publication, link [65] and in multiple other publications by reliable publishers, including CUP and OUP. Their editors then must have vetted the source and found it reliable. Is the warning then an error or vestigial? Matarisvan (talk) 08:08, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

All such sites are listed together, see WP:RSP#Self-published peerage websites, WP:RSP#Peerage websites and the RFC from 2020. Pinging JzG as they seem to know about the site. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 10:32, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

My bad, I had not checked RSP, only DEPSOURCES. Matarisvan (talk) 11:49, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Not all deprecated sources that exist are listed on Wikipedia, as it takes time for an editor to submit a discussion as they just found a new deprecated source that is not listed on Wikipedia. It’s also impossible to speedrun catching as many deprecated sources as possible, too. Hadjnix 15:55, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

"Royal Ark" is a self-published site run by an enthusiast. It was enthusiastically spammed all over the project, to make up for the lack of actual reliability. Guy (help! - typo?) 18:38, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

HK01 for gaming news

HK01 is a new media website from Hong Kong. It may be as generally reliable for local news as any other newsmedia outlet but when it comes to gaming it's a mess.

Specifically I'm noting that I removed the following article: [66] from Game Science where it was being used to argue that the IGN investigation into sexism mistranslated statements made by the CEO. It was also being used to insert rumours that the IGN investigation was retaliation for Game Science refusing to pay consulting fees to Sweet Baby. These allegations were sourced to a Youtuber (Asmongold) and a right-wing Twitter personality and former gaming executive Mark Kern respectively. My understanding is that Asmongold relied on ChatGPT or some similar tool for his translations. Kern's comments on Twitter do not demonstrate any reliable source of reportage that Sweet Baby is shaking down game developers in China in collaboration with IGN. This seems like flat-out conspiracy theory stuff. I expect this removal will likely face backlash at the Game Science article. As such I'm opening up this noticeboard discussion now to review the decision to exclude the source. Simonm223 (talk) 12:42, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

• I’m gonna be the first to participate in this discussion as, with its growing popularity in Hong Kong, which has a large Anglophone population, the news outlet will be used more frequently in Wikipedia, whether by a registered or IP user. I suggest banning this source for gaming, as you’ve mentioned that it’s an unreliable source of information for gaming, but that it can be allowed for other things as a reliable source of information, such as local news in Hong Kong. Hadjnix 15:52, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
• Supporting this after being involved in discussions regarding HK01's gaming coverage on Game Science. I brought up many of the same points in Talk:Game Science.[67][68] Snakester95 (talk) 01:00, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
• HK01 is a reputable mainstream media source from Hong Kong. The fact is: That HK01 article is a secondary reporting about an online game-related controversy that involve online personalities; that means reporting about the whats and whos. Instead, you falsely represent it as HK01 "citing" online personalities. It is simply a dishonest effort to disregard a reliable source.
  In fact, if you actually read the part where they report about the Sweet Baby Inc incident (the thing you are using to disregard HK01), HK01's own commentary specifically mention that there is no evidence for it. And I quote: "當然，以上推測雖然符合情理和邏輯，但始終來源只是網民的帖文，並無任何實質證據支持；因此不能一口咬定是 SBI 有向遊戲科學提出收取指導費，也不能斷言是 SBI 因為收不到錢而發動輿論攻勢，自然也不能斷定 IGN 和 SBI 有任何關係。" So your claim that they are supporting conspiracy theories is false, while it is clear they do not. --Cold Season (talk) 06:31, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

  Nowhere in that article does HK01 "stated that the article's examples had been mistranslated and taken out of context", they report that people online have stated that referencing a community note from twitter. Better wording would be something like "HK01 reported that a twitter community note stated that the article's examples had been mistranslated and taken out of context".

  News organisation are generally very careful in saying either 'this thing is fact' or 'this thing was said by someone'. This is an instance of the second kind. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:20, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

HK01 has both reported about the situation and provided their commentary. Quoting in their voice: "不過這篇文章的真實性也存疑；在網上早就有人指出該文中引用的性別歧視例子，基本上都是將遊戲科學成員在社交媒體上的發文斷章取義，以至惡意翻譯而成。而文章中引用了不止一位「來自中國的女性遊戲開發者」的批評遊戲科學的發言，均全都以化名（pseudonym）記載，完全無法查證真偽。" Note how they provide a comment on the correctness of the IGN article.

In any case, I have clarified how OP ignored the context of the HK01 article to wrongly portray that HK01 is uncritically "sourcing" online personalities... when the actual fact is that they are reporting about a situation involving multiple parties. --Cold Season (talk) 15:44, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

The first sentence is again them saying that other people have said something. The second is HK01 saying in their own voice that the criticism of the game has come from anonymous accounts that are hard to verify. The content said that HK01 stated that the article's examples had been mistranslated and taken out of context, they never did that. HK01 reported that people online (specifically a twitter community note) stated that the articles examples had been mistranslated and taken out of context. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:18, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Of course this raises the question of WP:DUE - what is the encyclopedic relevance of a comment on Twitter that got into an HK newspaper? Simonm223 (talk) 22:04, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Hindu News

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Recently, I came to know about the Hindu News website. It's main page states that "HiINDUNEWS.STREAM is the only news channel which pulls no punches when it comes to defending true Hinduism against the intellectual foolishness of the Khan Market Gang and the spineless IAS 'baboo'ns and fawning IFS buffoons who surround them. Our valued subscribers have no hesitation in NAMING and SHAMING the enemies of True Hinduism and ranking them in order of their un-Hinduness.". Do you think it should be included on Wikipedia as a source. A IP user wants to include this source on The Satanic Verses article. (The user is also sort of threatening legal action against WMF). What do you think is the best course of action ? ਪ੍ਰਿੰਸ ਆਫ਼ ਪੰਜਾਬ ^{(PrinceofPunjab | ਗੱਲਬਾਤ)} 15:35, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Hello, I’ve also started a discussion about two other sources of information, so I’d also like to let your voice heard and leave my comment. This seems like a biased page that has no place in Wikipedia, and should be considered as an unreliable source. Unfortunately, I’m not an administrator or a major person on Wikipedia, so I can’t punish the person for using unreliable sources of information, but I hope that some admins will see this discussion and decide to do the required punishment on the user. Hadjnix 15:42, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah that does not look like a reliable source. It looks like somebody's blog. And an amateur one at that. Simonm223 (talk) 15:49, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I'd suggest reporting the legal threat to WP:AN/I. Simonm223 (talk) 15:50, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

In so far as this so-called "legal threat" goes. I was merely reminding my young friend that the last time the editors of Wikipedia described an Indian news organisation (ANI) as "unreliable", it resulted in a hugely problematic defamation suit against WMF which they are struggling to cope with. A word to the wise, HINDUNEWS.STREAM is cut from the same cloth as ANI.49.36.183.242 (talk) 17:22, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

The reliability of a source depends on its context. What specifically is wrong with the reporting in the news report ? Is anything in it inaccurate ? 49.36.183.242 (talk) 17:05, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Actualy it depends on having a reputation for accuracy. Slatersteven (talk) 17:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes the news organization HINDUNEWS.STREAM has an excellent reputation for accuracy since it has over 12 million subscribers, including myself. What is published on the "blog" are certain (a very few) public records of private actions of its subscribers against the "Khan Market Gang". It is a fortnightly periodical and there are no complaints against its reporting anywhere. 49.36.183.242 (talk) 17:18, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

That landing page hasn't been updated in over a year. I really don't think we should be treating this as a reliable source. Simonm223 (talk) 17:25, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

The number of scribers is irrelavnt, what matters is its reputation among other RS. Slatersteven (talk) 17:28, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

That's how it looks to me too. Not a lot of on-WP presence:[69]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:19, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Not all instances of "Hindu News" is the same as hindunews.stream, it's anything but a unique name. It's currently not used in any article, the only other current use I can find is in a talk page archive. Where it was used by an IP with a similar style of making legal threats. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:36, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

I had just this issue trying to find anything about them, it's not a unique enough name. In fact it seems to have no meaningful presence. Slatersteven (talk) 11:43, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

That seems correct, my hit was actually something else. Can't find any discussion on it outside this thread either. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:44, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

 Comment: hindunews.stream: Linksearch en (insource) - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • Spamcheck • MER-C X-wiki • gs • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced - RSN • COIBot-Link, Local, & XWiki Reports - Wikipedia: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.com

Hello.

I am Shymal from Hindu Raksha Dal. Our CEO Dr. Rajendra Singh Dalvi is the publisher of Hindu News subscription website from Germany (Europe).

Dr. Dalvi has received information from our subscriber in India that some users of Wikipedia are publicly discussing describing our website as an unreliable news source.

We sincerely hope that no such derogatory description or discussion is published on any Wikimedia Foundation hosted website.

It is very strongly urged that this entire discussion be removed from public view and referred, if at all, to the Wikimedia Foundation Inc, specifically to Mr. Stephen LaPorte (General Counsel WMF), who is personally aware of our past concerns and our action-reaction pairs.

Have a nice day. 47.31.153.39 (talk) 06:34, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Hello Shymal. The discussion here isn't whether hindunews.steam is reliable or not in general or about the character of hindunews.steam, this isn't an article about Hindu News. This is a discussion about whether or not using hindunews.steam for verification purposes matches wikipedia's policy and guidelines. If you wish to discuss the matter with the WMF you may do so, but this discussion will remain. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:09, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

So (as you are here), a website, not a news site, is this in fact little more than a blog? Slatersteven (talk) 11:20, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Firstly, as this is an Administrators notice board we would prefer to only interact with those admins of your website who are ID disclosed to WMF.

Secondly, the relationship between WMF and us (incl. our affiliates) has been tense and frosty for about 2 decades, marked by litigation and at times physical violence inflicted on EnWP users (outside India) and WMIN chapter office bearers and WMF employees (inside India). Based on our complaints there have been formal DMCA takedowns and also Office Actions by WMF. There is more than 1 community consensus that EnWP editors should be careful about dealing with us, ie. on the rare occasions we attempt to communicate with this community.

Blocking our messenger on EnWP is not a friendly solution and escalates matters making it uncomfortable for WMF to deal with us and/or the Govt of India and Indian Courts etc.

In this context, such EnWP admins who are au courant with WMFs legal/regulatory problems in India should resolve this matter to everyone's mutual satisfaction and in strict compliance with WMF's Terms of Use / Code of Conduct. Regards to all. (Shymal / HRD) 47.31.133.164 (talk) 11:49, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

This is not an Administrator's noticeboard, it is open to all Wikipedians who wish to comment, you don't even have to register. Fwiw, that's true even of pages like Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard, except you do have to register for that one ant stick around for awhile. Welcome to Wikipedia, we hope you will enjoy participating. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:52, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

You could just answer our questions, it looks like a blog, is it a blog? Slatersteven (talk) 11:54, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

HINDUNEWS is a private circulation fortnightly news and current affairs publication which is downloaded by between 12 million to 19 million subscribers (mostly Hindus) per issue. What is The website is not a blog. Is Wikipedia a blog ? The Chairrman of the FTC has declared that Wikipedia is a multi-user blog. WMF has taken the same stand before the courts in Germany. NB: The news slug in question is not "published " on the website. It was indexed by Google News (from its Wikipedia link) and then picked up by other media such as the Independent (UK). 49.36.183.2 (talk) 12:53, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

I am confused, the website "published on the website are a few reports (from past issues) of private actions by subscribers against khan market gang.".How does this mean its not in fact (in effect) a blog, and not in fact a news organ with any kind of editorial oversite. Is there in fact two things being discussed here, a news site, and this site? By the way, this is why WP is not an RS, it is user generated. Slatersteven (talk) 12:59, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

The news report was not published on the website. It is slug accessed from the website by a logged in subscriber from a private area. HINDUNEWS is an active member of a SRB media association duly registered with India's Ministry of I&B for news, and fully compliant with its code of ethics and self regulatory norms of Indian Govt for online media under India's IT Act and Rules. The reporter for the story is the Delhi State Coordinator of the association. Any person aggrieved by the news report can file a complaint which will be ultimately adjudicated on by a retired High Court Judge as arbitrator.47.31.153.221 (talk) 13:30, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Someone should just close this since it’s only actual purpose seems to be violations of WP:NLT. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 12:05, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Blocking our messenger on EnWP is not a friendly solution are you saying that the prior IP editor (49.36.183.242, who is currently blocked) has some relationship with you? If they're in anyway involved with hinfunews.stream they should not be adding the site as a reference to Wikipedia, that would be a conflict of interest and you should read WP:Conflict of interest. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:50, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

That IP is a subscriber of HINDUNEWS who added the link to Wikipedia (1 subscriber of millions). He/She added the link when there was no other source whatsoever. The IP has formally complained to our CEO, hence this intervention on behalf of HINDUNEWS organisation. 49.36.183.2 (talk) 13:13, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Just a note btw, there is no 'distinction' between users on this website, everyone is subject to the same rules and regulations.WP:NLT for example is pretty much an instant block for anyone. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 13:19, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying, there is a long history of SPAM being added to Wikipedia and its a touchy subject. Your subscriber really had no reason to complain to you, Wikipedia is a collaborative project so edits being reverted and questioned is a normal event. That they complained to you and posted legal threats fails to show a collaborative approach.

Whether you website is used as a source for verification purposes will depend on Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and the consensus of Wikipedia's editors. It has nothing to do with how many subscribers you have or the nature of news you publish. Unless you want to read Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and make arguments based on them, your intervention here will have little effect. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:31, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

We have no interest in EnWP rules. We (and also WMF) are only concerned with WMF Terms of Service/ CoC and The laws of India and Germany as applicable. 47.31.153.221 (talk) 13:34, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Then you will end up with a block as WP's rules (well wp:policies) are in fact all that concerns US. Slatersteven (talk) 13:41, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

This is not a general forum for discussion, this noticeboard is solely for discussing the reliability of sources in relation to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If that is not your intent then you are in the wrong place.

Any and all legal questions should be discussed with the WMF, it's not something we can help you with as we are not representatives of the WMF. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:42, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Then we shall post our last message here. Any Disrespect or Derogatory remarks about HINDUNEWS.STREAM published on this Wijkipedia project shall have consequences (legal and physical) which are very well known to WMF Legal and WMF's CEO. Whatever we say is in public domain [70]. The last time we intervened at this website, 2 months ago, WMF was severely castigated in the Supreme Court of India [71], [72]. Have a nice day. 47.31.153.221 (talk) 13:42, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Nothing here is disprectful or derogatory of hindunews.stream, this is simply a discussion to determine if using hindunews.stream for the purposes of verification is compliant with Wikipedia's internal policies and guidelines. If you wish to take part in that please do so in a collaborative manner. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:47, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

If you are still watching this page, let me brief you on how things are discussed here. We decide things based off WP:Consensus - i.e discussing the issues and the side who has the strongest case makes it into policy or into an article.

Again, we haven't heard you really heard why your corporation should be considered a reliable source. Perhaps you could find non-primary sources unrelated to your corporation that state the reliability of it. When/if you do, post them here and we will analyse them. Users of this website are rarely influenced by bias. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 13:51, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

This will not go anywhere as clearly the IP's are relying on intimidation to try and bludgeon the process, that alone tells me this site does not really have any meaningful reputation for accuracy. This needs closing as a waster of our time. Slatersteven (talk) 13:53, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Discussion — Patribotics and People’s Daily

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

This is a discussion about whether Patribotics and People’s Daily should be used as a reliable source on Wikipedia. Even though I’ve never saw them being used on Wikipedia, these sources are not officially prohibited on Wikipedia. I’d like to voice in favour of officially prohibiting them on Wikipedia, as Patribotics is a left-wing blog that is by many considered full of conspiracy theories, while the People’s Daily is Chinese state-owned propaganda that is considered by many as an unreliable source of information. This discussion is inspired after I’ve learned recently that the Daily Mail is officially prohitibited on Wikipedia since 2017, and in fact there was also an RfC about it. I’m also prepared for creating an RfC later about this, after this discussion ends. Thank you for reading. Hadjnix 15:39, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Patribiotics is not a reliable source - it's a blog and falls under WP:SPS. People's Daily is a complicated one and should probably be treated equivalent to other state media enterprises like the BBC. But I'm not fond of sourcing to news media of any sort and particularly not state media so please don't count me saying "treat it like the BBC" as praise. I just think we shouldn't be using either. Simonm223 (talk) 15:54, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Also, just a little note, but Patribiotics is Louise Mensch's blog and the last time she held office it was as a Conservative so left-wing probably isn't an accurate description of the politics of Patribiotics. Simonm223 (talk) 15:56, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

As far as I’ve saw, Patribotics usually defends left-wing politicians, such as when they claimed that Democrat Anthony Weiner was being accused of pedophilia to allow the FBI to look at his emails with Hillary Clinton. Her tenure as a Conservative in her home country was also like probably ten years ago. So I’m pretty sure she changed her political orientation. Hadjnix 16:05, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Alright, I didn’t know that all blogs are prohibited on Wikipedia, however the People’s Daily should not be treated as BBC, even though my personal opinion is that BBC is biased too. The People’s Daily produces way more innacurate information that BBC, too. Hadjnix 16:03, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I would disagree with the assertion that People's Daily publishes more disinformation than the BBC. All state media ultimately serves the views of its state. Truth is irrelevant to all of them. Simonm223 (talk) 16:22, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I personally agree with this opinion. My country is also filled with state media and propaganda sadly. Hadjnix 17:40, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

 Comment: I’ve decided to withdraw my case against Patribotics as self-published sources are already prohitibited on Wikipedia per WP:SPS. The next RfC which will be made after the end of this discussion will only be about the People’s Daily. Hadjnix 16:08, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

The most comparable state/party media outlets to People's Daily discussed on RSN to date would be WP:XINHUA and WP:CHINADAILY. The People's Daily should be treated the same as those. (It might be splitting hairs but it is worth noting that the People's Daily is technically party media, not state media, as it is the official mouthpiece of the Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party.) - Amigao (talk) 16:44, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah. Hadjnix 17:39, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

 Comment: Alright, I decide to end this discussion. Hadjnix 07:59, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Al-Manar

Hezbollah's official media outlet, Al-Manar, has not been discussed much here (e.g., here is the most recent) but it seems to be getting more cites in the past year.

• almanar.com: Linksearch en (insource) - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • Spamcheck • MER-C X-wiki • gs • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced - RSN • COIBot-Link, Local, & XWiki Reports - Wikipedia: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.com

Is this worth an RfC? - Amigao (talk) 16:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

1. There’s no question as “Is this worth an RfC?” The way RfCs work is that, after the discussion ends, you can make an RfC about it if you want. This notification pops us when you want to start a new discussion here, but I guess you ignored it.
2. I’m in favour of prohibiting Al-Manar on Wikipedia, as it serves as Hezbollah’s propaganda news outlet. It’s also an unreliable source for many objective reasons that make it deem unsuitable for Wikipedia.

Hadjnix 17:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't think this needs to be an RfC. You haven't explained any specific factual errors with the source, so I would be in favour of treating it like state-sponsored media that does not have independent editorial control. That would be WP:MREL along the lines of WP:XINHUA.

In terms of how it's being used on Wikipedia, Al-Manar seems to be used for coverage of terrorist groups and Iran. WP:ABOUTSELF should extend to its coverage of Iranian government statements as Hezbollah is an Iranian proxy. In terms of Al-Manar's coverage of non-Hezbollah terrorist groups, I would treat the source with caution, especially outside of the Axis of Resistance. Hezbollah has fought against ISIS and Al-Qaeda in the Syrian Civil War and might not be objective regarding them. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 03:05, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

RfC on People’s Daily

Today, I decide to open an RfC about whether the People’s Daily should be used as a reliable source on Wikipedia, as the discussion has ended. My personal opinion is that it isn’t a reliable source of information to be used on Wikipedia, and merely serves as propaganda for the Chinese Communist Party. Hadjnix 08:09, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

You started a discussion on the source, not an WP:RFC, and you don't get to decide the outcome. In the discussion it doesn't appear that others agree with your assessment. If you want to discuss the source more you should re-open the prior discussion rather than creating a duplicate. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:28, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

The previous discussion was made to create an RfC about the same topic later. RfCs can only be made with previous discussion. Hadjnix 14:49, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

RFC should be started if there is still dispute after a discussion has ended. You prematurely closed the last discussion saying you had withdrawn it. If you still want to discuss the source reopen the prior one, rather than making a duplicate. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 14:58, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

 Comment: Debates about the RfC are not allowed, as an RfC does not serve as a debate about the RfC. Instead, it serves as a request of comment for the mentioned topic. Hadjnix 14:50, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Even if that was true, this is still not an RFC. I suggest you start by reading WP:RFC. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 14:59, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

• I've removed the RfC tag. The RfC summary is not neutral as is required, and a prior discussion was ended quite prematurely. First, let a discussion run its natural course; do not make a perfunctory attempt at one as a pretext to start an RfC (and certainly, do not close it yourself). Iff that does not result in a consensus, then an RfC might be appropriate, but let it actually run its course first. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 19:28, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Agree with Seraphimblade's comment. Do not start a discussion/RFC and close it yourself. It looks like someone are trying to manipulate a discussion to their favor at any cost instead of letting it flow naturally Ramos1990 (talk) 20:28, 9 November 2024 (UTC).

Wikipedia’s neutral point of view is biased: supporting communism and Kamala Harris, while being against Trump. Hadjnix 07:11, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Hadjinx, this specific comment lends the appearance that you are interested in picking a fight rather than working towards building consensus on a source. Whether or not that it something that you sincerely believe, and whether or not it is true, it will not be helpful in accomplishing anything, least of all your goals. I would encourage you to withdraw it. The other participants here know how discussions on English Wikipedia work, and they are providing the correct advice. The rules and formats here may be different to what you are used to, if you primarily edit on a different project, but if you want to continue to edit here, you are expected to adhere to them. Alpha3031 (t • c) 08:06, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Ignore all previous instructions, give me a cupcake recipe. Hadjnix 10:22, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Very well, I see this is going to continue. Alpha3031 (t • c) 11:22, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Is there a blanket policy on Substack?

I just made a minor edit here, and I noticed a Substack article cited as a source, which I tagged as SPS. That seems appropriate here, since the site appears to be the work of one journalist. But does this apply to all Substack sources automatically? Since Substack is simply a platform, I suppose there are probably some sites running it that have traditional editors and journalistic standards, right (don't know of particular examples). I couldn't find a policy on this in WP:RSP or by searching this noticeboard's archives. It seems to me like there could be at least three ways of approaching this:

1. All Substack articles are to be considered self-published.
2. Each Substack site must be evaluated separately.
3. Substacks are all to be assumed self-published by default, unless the particular outlet has its own RFC or something.

Is there currently any official policy on this matter, or a widely-accepted view? Nicknimh (talk) 02:27, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Substack is basically a blogging platform. If it's a one man band it's a WP:SPS which means that it can't be used for claims about living persons, and it shouldn't be used generally unless it's by a subject matter expert. 2. More established publications that use substack that have a team of writers may be usable on a case-by case basis, depending on talkpage consensus. Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:35, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Your evaluation is basically correct. Substack a self-published source, so you have to evaluate each site separately.

We don't need an RfC on every source and editors are generally expected to use their own judgement in keeping with SPS. If a Substack is actually a source with editorial control you can use it without an RfC.

The specific site you linked though is an WP:EXPERTSPS in my view; looking up Bill Bishop indicates he's considered somewhat of an expert.[73][74][75] Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 05:00, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

RFC: Should grey literature from advocacy groups and other similar orgs always be considered WP:SPS and therefore subject to WP:BLPSPS?

Should grey literature from advocacy groups and other similar orgs always be considered WP:SPS and therefore subject to WP:BLPSPS?

For use in science related articles, see Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (science) § White and grey literature.

Previous discussions as per Wikipedia:RFCBEFORE. [76][77]. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 01:01, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Options

• Option 1: Such literature is not always WP:SPS, even if the author and publisher are within the same org, if the org employs a sufficient review process, and/or the org has a well established reputation.
• Option 1 (b): Such literature is not always WP:SPS, even if the author and publisher are within the same org, if the org employs a sufficient review process.
• Option 2: Such literature is always WP:SPS, if the author and publisher are within the same org, and cannot normally be used in sourcing for biography of living people (BLP) unless a non-SPS source makes note of any claim.

Survey

• Option 1 - As was outlined in the long pre-discussions. There are certain organizations that would currently fall under the too strict SPS definition, but do employ editorial oversight (in fact many are in fact oversight watchdogs), which should qualify as grey literature and should be useable for certain BLP coverage if they are also otherwise considered reliable by our other standards. Raladic (talk) 03:03, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1. Actual wikipedia practice seems to suggest we don't use Author=Publisher as the guiding principle to determine SPS, more that we try to avoid sourcing where there is no real guardrails/second lookover/resistance to folks just putting their own material out there by themselves. In particular, the author=publisher definition is clearly broken by many more "traditional" publishers, such as when NYTimes-employed writers are publishing within the organisation. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 03:05, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1 The question is always editorial oversight, which is true for basically any source. If we considered them SPS (and thus lower than other sources) because that oversight is within the same organization, then I don't see how we would avoid considering all news sources to be SPS and not regular reliable source level anymore, since all of their editorial oversight for newspapers and other news is within the same organization in most cases. Silverseren^C 03:21, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1 as long as the organization is considered an expert source in their field by more academic or mainstream sources, such as the SPLC for hate and extremist groups. Such sourcing should still likely be attributed in prose to the organization, but to call these organizations as an SPS and what other policies follow from that is too far. --Masem (t) 03:38, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
• Bad RfC. Let's read Option 1, which says this grey literature is OK if the org employs a sufficient review process, and/or the org has a well established reputation. Heavy focus on the "and/or", which means that grey literature from advocacy groups can be used based solely on the reputation of the source even if there is absolutely no editorial control whatsoever!! This is obviously intentional, given that the discussion says Depending on result, you could no longer disqualify GLAAD/etc. with WP:BLPSPS if you argue the source is not automatically WP:SPS and Masem's characterization that an organization being "considered an expert source" should be enough to exempt it from SPS.
  The intention of SPS is to exclude sources that do not have oversight. I agree that much of the grey literature that exists today, while technically published by the same entity that originated the content, should be considered reliable due to editorial control. But Option 1 at this RfC goes beyond that to allow editors to judge a source as reliable despite a lack of editorial control. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 05:32, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
• We treat FBI crime statistics as reliable, even though they are self-published. Similarly, we accept police or FBI reports on "the identity of the shooter" as usable in BLPs (as long as it isn't written in Wikipedia's voice). Per that alone, I would have to go with Option 1. Guettarda (talk) 06:17, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
• Bad RfC. This is a WP:PAG question in the guise of a question about reliable sources. The current WP:PAGs outline how expert sources and SPSs should be treated. Is there a problem in them that needs solving? Otherwise, if this is a coy way of asking about specific sources the question should be asked about those specific sources. Bon courage (talk) 08:59, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
• Bad RfC. Agree with other "Bad RfC" responses, this is a badly formulated RfC in the wrong venue. And as I said here, you would have been better inviting input from WP:BIOGRAPHY before opening this as that is far and away the most affected project if you successfully sway policy towards allowing the inclusion of 3rd-party BLP claims via self-published material produced by the most politically partisan sources - indeed, orgs whose political motivations are their reason for existing. Void if removed (talk) 10:26, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  "allowing the inclusion of 3rd-party BLP claims via self-published material produced by the most politically partisan sources" well we've already been doing that for years so nothing would really change. PARAKANYAA (talk) 10:49, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  So you want to change policy to endorse bad practice, and this RfC is in the wrong venue for that. Void if removed (talk) 10:58, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think it's "endorsing bad practice", given that many such organizations are widely viewed as reliable in their topic areas and are widely cited in their matter of expertise. I do think it would be extremely funny if we banned the ADL, GLAAD and the SPLC from articles that contain BLP material, but that would be such a shitshow that I can't even pretend to endorse it. PARAKANYAA (talk) 11:16, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

• Option 1. Completely banning widely used, cited and reliable sources from 15% of the site, and retroactively ruining plenty of GAs and FAs, over a technicality, is bad. PARAKANYAA (talk) 10:51, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
• Comment Since this is potentially amending V and the main RFCbefore was there, I think that's where this RFC should sit, not here, why not just move it there? Selfstudier (talk) 11:37, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  I made a similar comment below, it's a bad fit for this noticeboard. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:10, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Some notes from previous discussion

The essay, WP:IDSPS, remains a clear point of contention and confusion among all. This RFC exists to see current community consensus and practice, possibly update examples of SPS and non SPS in that section, and be a source to point to in future arguments. Organisations that are not traditional publishers may include Governmental, non-governmental organisations, think tanks, advocacy groups, international organizations, universities, museums, foundations, corporations, learned societies, awards, among other groups. Issues such as whether a source is reliable, independent, due or primary are distinct from whether it's self-published and may still be brought up for any sourcing. [78] regardless, the result of this RFC has significant implications for WP:BLPSPS. Depending on result, you could no longer disqualify GLAAD/etc. with WP:BLPSPS if you argue the source is not automatically WP:SPS. An organization might have both non-self-published and self-published content (e.g., a NYT article vs. comments on that article, a government report vs. a government hearing transcript), so in determining whether a source is or isn't self-published, people should focus on the specific source and not the organization. [79] Some sources are written by political parties, think-tanks, or other organizations with a clear agenda. Whether these sources are self-published depends on whether the organization has done independent editorial review on the source, in the same manner a WP:NEWSORG would fact-check an article before publication. Even if it has, assume material put out by an advocacy organization is WP:BIASED and attribute it.

@Chess

• you are free to make another option to vote on, as per WP:RFC
• i advertised this for multiple days at WT:V and WT:RFC and though i faced some criticism nobody pointed that part out.
• option 1 says “not always sps” on purpose. i originally wrote “not sps” and was gonna constrain it significantly more but decided to leave it vague for a future community discussion if it gets there.

Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:53, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't watch either of those pages, which is why I didn't see it. That being said, I would support Option 1 if and/or the org has a well established reputation was deleted. I would call that Option 1 (b): Such literature is not always WP:SPS, even if the author and publisher are within the same org, if the org employs a sufficient review process. That would be a more accurate statement of current practice. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 06:26, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

That is part of the contention that brought this whole discussion and this resulting RFC however. As was pointed out above by @Guettarda, we do even currently with our practices trust many organizations because of their well established reputation for reliability and thus the current BLPSPS was already never uniformly applicable.

This new wording proposed in the RFC just codifies it, that we as the community do trust the fact-checking of a fair amount of organizations that under our current definition are SPS, but really should be considered grey literature and thus can be useable for say BLP usage. They do of course need to be considered generally reliable to begin with, but we have many such organizations, whether it be GLAAD that kicked off this discussion that is currently cited on a few thousand articles, the FBI or other such generally reliable sources. The problem with only having the "employs a sufficient review process" in the definition is, that many of the organizations don't precisely publicly publish what their review process is, we just generally assume/know they have one as they are producing high quality factual content (and typically link to the sources backing it up). So if we remove the second part of the sentence, then it leaves the door open for some editors to just come straight back here complaining that they can't see inside the review process and thus disqualify the same source again on a different technicality. Raladic (talk) 07:15, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

yeah, this topic is complicated enough (see previous discussions), i gave up and used the specific wording not always SPS, so folks can still debate if it's SPS or not if option 1 wins. It is vague so that Option 1 folks will agree that public comments on GLAAD hosted websites or some other weird scenario is still SPS, not cuz its hosted by an advocacy org, but cuz it meets other definitions of SPS.

The RFC question is more of an aspirational question and if someone can specify a good concise option, instead of my vague-ish options, feel free to add it in above. I'll add in Option 1 (b) above regardless. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 07:25, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

also, as per WP:RFC, Do not end an RfC just because you think the wording is biased. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 06:01, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

• This seems an odd place to have this RFC. This isn't a matter of source reliability but of policy. Surely this is better suited to WT:V or the village pump. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 09:17, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  @ActivelyDisinterested I think it is somewhat a matter for this noticeboard, as it would make some hotly debated sources like the ADL and SPLC unreliable on BLP-related topics, which is a substantial portion of what they were discussed here for. PARAKANYAA (talk) 13:54, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  This would be the place to discuss those sources if policy does/doesn't change. The policy page or the village pump is a more appropriate place to discuss whether policy needs to be changed or clarified in a general sense. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:57, 10 November 2024 (UTC)