Talk:William Shakespeare

• William Shakespeare Talk Archives 1

Old bill shakspeare's picture

heck no he didnt wear and earing those were for gay people back in those times ? (see the insert)

Do you have a problem with that?! The Singing Badger 01:59, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

My understanding is that earrings were not uncommon at the time. I don't believe there were any homosexual connotations. Phoenixrod 02:43, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/03/AR2006030302110.html The picture is likely authentic. Twocs 14:35, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

What time was it when Shakespeare died??Krazie 101

Shakspeare was bisexual 10:54 March 22, 2006

In Shakespeare's time, people who wore earings were condidered somewhat important/high on the social ladder.

Popular Culture

What? No references to influences to today's culture? That's insane! The most popular playwright of all time has no section on movies, music, art, etc, based on his work? I added a section on Shakespeare in Love, a movie I have heard of, never seen. That's all I can think of at the moment that has influenned him. Get with it Wikipedia!4.240.171.82 18:03, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

There is an entire article devoted to his movies and movies about him and this is linked to from the article. See Shakespeare on screen. I also noted that you added some vandalism to the article.[1]--Alabamaboy 18:53, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Semi-protect page

As anyone who regularly edits this page knows, William Shakespeare is the target of frequent and anonymous vandalism. As an experiment, I'm going to semi-protect this page for a bit so only logged-in users can edit it. This appears to be done more on Wikipedia of late due to increasing vandalism. (However, opinion is very split over this, just see here and here). If anyone has a problem with this please let me know. Best, --Alabamaboy 14:40, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Alabamaboy, did you find this experiment to improve matters? There are so many vandalisms of this page that I'm beginning to think permanent semi-protection is justified. The Singing Badger 14:21, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

My original experiment was overruled by some other admins after only a few hours, who said there wasn't enough vandalism of the page to justify the semi-protect. I think we should try it again b/c the vandalism has increased since then to a massive degree. I'll go ahead and semi-protect the page. Then we can evaluate the effort after a few days or a week.--Alabamaboy 15:30, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I've semi-protected the page.--Alabamaboy 15:40, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Stylistic classification

The following paragraph seems to get edited more than any other on this page, and you can tell why as, over time, it has become a bit of a mess:

Shakespeare's plays tend to be placed into three main stylistic groups: his early comedies and histories (such as A Midsummer Night's Dream and Henry IV, Part 1), his middle period (which includes his most famous tragedies, Othello, Macbeth, Hamlet, and King Lear), and his other romance, The Merchant of Venice and Romeo and Juliet, and his later romances (such as The Winter's Tale and The Tempest). The earlier plays tend to be more light-hearted, while the middle-period plays tend to be darker, addressing such issues as betrayal, murder, lust, power, and egotism. By contrast, his late romances feature a redemptive plotline with a happy ending and the use of magic and other fantastical elements. However, the borders between these groups are extremely blurry.

Does anyone:

1. Have a citation supporting this method of classifing the plays?
2. Have any ideas about the fact that the classification seems to ignore the really early plays (Shrew, Gentlemen, Henry VI/Richard III, Titus, etc.)? I suppose they are in "early comedies and histories", but to my mind WS was in his prime as a writer when he got to 1H4 and Dream.
3. Have an idea on how to unscramble "his other romance, the Merchant of Venice and Romeo and Juliet"? Problems are: (1) Why "other"? Other to what? (2) Which of MoV and R&J is a romance and in what sense of the word? (3) Why a singular "romance" then two plays? (Edit history suggests this is not one editor's mistake, but a string of edits not-quite-dovetailing with each other.)

Maybe we should delete the paragraph altogether, if no-one has a better solution. AndyJones 11:12, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think the paragraph is fine as is. This is a "general" grouping of his plays that is supported by the literature (yes, there are exceptions to the grouping but in general it holds). I'll see if I can find a reference--the bigger problem is that the entire article needs more references. Best, --Alabamaboy 14:25, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, but you won't satisfy me on my point 3 by leaving the paragraph as it is. If you're mainly happy, I propose deleting "and his ... Romeo and Juliet," to leave:

Shakespeare's plays tend to be placed into three main stylistic groups: his early comedies and histories (such as A Midsummer Night's Dream and Henry IV, Part 1), his middle period (which includes his most famous tragedies, Othello, Macbeth, Hamlet, and King Lear), and his later romances (such as The Winter's Tale and The Tempest). The earlier plays tend to be more light-hearted, while the middle-period plays tend to be darker, addressing such issues as betrayal, murder, lust, power, and egotism. By contrast, his late romances feature a redemptive plotline with a happy ending and the use of magic and other fantastical elements. However, the borders between these groups are extremely blurry.

...which I'll do today if there are no alternative suggestions. AndyJones 09:04, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. --Alabamaboy 14:08, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Done. AndyJones 02:17, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I've often read that his plays were put into three catergories, Comedies, Histories and tragedies, by scholars. (For exampel, this is what it says in "Shakespeare for Dummies") :) MichelleGraabek 11:09, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Not quite; they were classified that way by his two fellow actors who put together his posthumous complete works in 1623. The Singing Badger 13:04, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Baptism date

Is April 26, 1564 New style or Old style? If it is old style, then the new style date of May 7 should be added with the OS template.--Fallout boy 20:47, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Nevermind, that's the OS date.--Fallout boy 20:49, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Why should the New Style date be mentioned at all? The Gregorian calendar wasn't even invented intil 1582, and was not used in England until 1752. TharkunColl 13:32, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Did Shakespeare ever play in plays when he was little

He may have performed in Latin plays at school, but there is no concrete evidence. The Singing Badger 14:02, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

However, it is interesting to note that Stratford was a standard stop for traveling theatrical companies. Rowse once speculated that perhaps they came to Stratford one year, and left with an extra actor. That's a guess, of course, but a tempting one.

His best bed.

Didn't he bequeth his best bed to his wife after his death? I think I remember reading that.

-ShatteredHorizon

No, it was his second best bed. The Singing Badger 01:26, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Dates

I've just done [this revert]. However, I'm still not happy with this presentation of the date. Firstly it looks ugly. Secondly it doesn't focus on the significance of 23rd April. Is there perhaps some Wikipedia policy about the presentation of dates? I'm copying this same question to the help desk. AndyJones 10:09, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Absolute Claims

Shakespeare is not the world's pre-eminent dramatist. This is a partial, anglo-centric statement that does not take into consideration dramatists from non-English or non-European cultures. Changed to "one of the world's pre-eminent dramatists".

• Fair enough, and I haven't reverted you. However can you suggest a non-English language dramatist with comparable impact? AndyJones 11:40, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Actually, the point is not fair. No other dramatist in Shakespeare's league can be named. His plays have been translated into nearly every language (if not all) and are performed across large numbers of cultures. If another playwright can be said to be even close to accomplishing all of this, please let us know. Otherwise, the original wording should stand.--Alabamaboy 21:40, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
    • Agree. Guinnog 21:42, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
      • I should add that the general crtical assessment of Shakespeare is that he is the "world's pre-eminent dramatist."--Alabamaboy 21:43, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
        • I see someone's put this back as it was. Inclined to agree. AndyJones 10:20, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
          • It should be regarded that there seems considerable evidence for suggesting that Shakespeare was not the most popular dramatist of his time, however. Remember that it was Edmund Spenser who became poet laurate, and Sir Philip Sidney whose critical writings were most resoected. He wasn't too popular with restoration theatre-goers, either, who far preferred the likes of Jonson. As for worldwide reception, the Japanese certainly have always found him rather verbose in comparison to say, Noh theatre. And to point out that there is wide translation ignores a predominance of Anglo-American culture in the world, a predominance that has existed for centuries. Other dramatists with considerable impact? What about Brecht or Ibsen, whose approaches have had enormous impact on 20th century theatre. And don't forget- Shakespeare did not pull his ideas out of nowhere. He is inspired by Bodaccio, Seneca, Petrarch (not a dramatist per se, but one whose poetic modes are certainly made reference to. 'No other dramatists in Shakespeare's league'? What of Webster, Middleton, Marlowe? Give some qualifications for your statements, at least. Sorry for a bit of a rant...Bosola 03:04, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Shakespeare's Existence

There are claims that Willliam Shakespeare really wasn't alive because there is no evidence of him, no pictures or anything, and that there are handwritten works signed by Shakespeare that have different handwriting. Can someone help enlighten me on this?

There is a picture of him (this one), and there's plenty of evidence about his life (read the Shakespeare's life article). I don't know what you mean about the handwritten works, I've never heard anything like that. The Singing Badger 22:18, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

A really excellent book on the whole subject is "Who Wrote Shakespeare" by John Michell. It discusses all the questions you've raised, and is aimed at ordinary readers, not experts. AndyJones 10:10, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, it is true that there are no lifetime portraits of Shakespeare. The pic linked to by The Singing Badger above was commissioned for the first folio, some years after Shakespeare's death. They do say there's nothing in Shakespeare's own handwriting except a few scrawled and inconsistent signatures. However many academics believe that Shakespeare wrote an excerpt for a collaborative play called "Sir Thomas More". If they are right then a substantial passage in his handwriting does exist. AndyJones 10:18, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

help me complete a quote

hi, i was wondering if you guys ever heard of this quote by william shakespeare " let go the dogs of war ____________________" please help me complete it

You may be thinking of this quote from Julius Caesar, Act III, Scene I: "Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war!". Cheers JackofOz 05:34, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

thanks i am graaeful to you. thanks many thanks. i also want to ask did you ever see romeo and juliet play. i have seen it so many times it is always intresting that romeo is drinking poison while juliet is going to awaken you can see her hand twiitch and i think that she should wake up and stop romeo but that never occurs. thanks KRANZYTZ OKTYABAR

I believe you mean William Shakespeare's Romeo + Juliet, the 1996 movie directed by Baz Luhrmann? Yes, I saw it. Anville 21:11, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I doubt the questioner was asking about any one film version. You wouldn't watch the same film over and think it might turn out different than the last time you saw it. They were comparing different film and/or stage versions (they said 'play'). The hand twitching is part of the dramatic tricks that stage and film directors use to heighten the tension - the audience is aware Juliet is not dead but Romeo isn't. For those who don't know how the story ends (and even those who do), it's a great "if only" moment. There's no such direction in the play itself, by the way. JackofOz 22:37, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

thanks again for replying did you ever see the movie hamlet i wnated to know how the play is and its story so kindly if anyone of you have ever seen it cold you tell me how is it.

Have a look at our article on the play. JackofOz 23:57, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

thanks again

to jackofoz hi i saw in your profile that you are a australian have you ever gone to sydney if yes have you seen the opera house in sydne. thanks

Yes, and yes. It's best to direct personal questions to my talk page. JackofOz 03:24, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

iam ver sorry i hope you can forgive me.

"To err is human, to forgive divine" (That's Alexander Pope, by the way, not Shakespeare) JackofOz 12:38, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

did you ever see the movie shakespare in love it was a good movie

Catholicism

I suspect this is an editing error:

Lady Magdalen Montague, a well known Catholic and a bulwark of English Catholicism was a prominent patron of the Bard, and is even found within his plays Romeo and Juliet, A Winter's Tale and Comedy of Errors.

But can someone confirm that? The (apparent) assertion that Catholicism is found in A Winter's Tale is plain wrong. The religion is supposedly ancient Greek. Some speculate that the 'magic statue' is based on the Virgin Mary, but as noted on the play's talk page there is no 'magic statue', and merely echoing the concept of a shrine in the play doesn't make him Catholic. (Any more than the play provides evidence that Shakespeare believed in the Delphic Oracle.)--Jack Upland 10:01, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I can't quite parse what that sentence is trying to say. The name "Montague" in Romeo and Juliet is an Anglicization of the Montecchi in Luigi da Porto's version (circa 1530), last I heard. Anville 10:28, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I suspect the sentence is (or contains) a mistake. I'll remove it, pending someone coming here with a source &/or a correction. AndyJones 13:27, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

we found out that shakespeare has written most of his popular theatre plays when he has been drunk or has taken drugs

in addition to that his mother was a prostitute!!!

Yes. He was a whoreson mad fellow! AndyJones 11:12, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Date of birth/death

I have a question!!! How is it possible that Shakespeare was baptised on May 7, his birthday was settled on May 4. The day he died was May 3 but how is it possible that Shakespaere died on he same date he was born! If you talkin about New Style it's impossible that birtday and death are on the same date!!!It's quiet confussing.

(thx Mischa) Muwa

• It's perfectly possible. Especially if the birth and death are in different years, as in this case. Guinnog 23:11, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

• • Yes, born 1564, died 1616. One chance in 365 of it happening on the same day of the year. As I have mentioned above, though, the presentation of the date IS confusing. Would anyone object to me putting:

(baptised 26 April 1564, died 23 April 1616 [NEW STYLE baptised 7 May 1564, died 4 May 1616])

or similar? AndyJones 10:12, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

• • • After a lot of fuss, we've now got new style dates of May 3rd and 6th. Gregorian calendar confirms May 3rd as correct - but that is circular: using Wikipedia as a source. Whoever came here first clearly thought it was May 4th and 7th. Can somebody who knows something about this please comment? Will post something at Gregorian calendar, too. AndyJones 16:43, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

The Gregorian calendar was not invented until 1582, so why mention it at all for Shakespeare's birth? And it wasn't used in England until 1752, so why mention it for his death? As for the correct conversion, during the 16th and 17th centuries there was a ten day difference, so the 3rd and 6th are correct. During the 18th century the difference rose to 11 days. It was 12 days during the 19th century, and is currently 13 days for both the 20th and 21st centuries. TharkunColl 16:51, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

• Great, thanks for your help. Yes, I share your doubts about metioning it at all. However at least one editor has interpreted WP:DATE as saying that is Wikipedia policy. AndyJones 20:48, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
  • TharkunColl, I agree with you about the baptism date. The Gregorian calendar has no relevance here at all. I prefer to show both dates for the death, since a lot of Europe had converted by 1616 and we need to show the date as other countries would have perceived it. JackofOz 21:44, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
    • Are you actually proposing that we convert one but not the other? AndyJones 22:08, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok what i know about Shakespeare is that he was born on April 23 and died April 23 1616..... sssoooo if its not true then please clarify.......204.218.240.68 08:05, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

yeah like they said he was born April 23, 1564 and died April 23, 1616. Sheila dd88 08:09, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

• Shakespeare died on 23rd April 1616. Nobody knows when he was born, but he was baptised on 26th April 1564, so a tradition has grown up that he was probably born on the same day of the year that he died: 23rd April 1564. Does that clear it up? AndyJones 13:45, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a little stronger than that, insofar as it was standard practice in those days for baptisms to occur three days after birth. Still not proof, of course. Also, according to the historical writer Graham Phillips, Shakespeare was with fellow dramatist Ben Jonson on the day he died, celebrating his birthday. Mind you, Phillips also claims that Shakespeare was murdered by Sir Walter Raleigh. TharkunColl 15:44, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

New portal

Just to let everyone know, there is now a new Portal:Shakespeare, written by User:James.kendall. Feel free to contribute. --Khoikhoi 00:58, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Bias?

I object to this line especially: "Shakespeare is considered by many to be the greatest writer in the English language, as well as one of the greatest in Western literature, and the world's pre-eminent dramatist." Courier new 16:20, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I think you are right on with this one. Wikiarticles have way too many "considered by many" lines of crap. We should stick to the facts - and cite them. Rklawton 16:25, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I sympathize with the need to avoid vague attribution, but I think some mention of Shakespeare's preeminent status ought to be made in the lead. --Muchness 18:03, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree that there are many times when statements like this do not apply. But in Shakespeare's case, the overwhelming critical and popular sentiment from around the world is that this is the case. In this case, these are not weasel words, they are fact.--Alabamaboy 18:07, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

It won't kill me to leave it in. However, part of greatness is not having to say it.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rklawton (talk • contribs) .

I, too, agree that there are weasel words here. However Shakespeare is the most significant writer who has ever lived, verifiable by any number of measures. The opening paragraph of an article about him doesn't become more encyclopedic by failing to mention the fact. AndyJones 20:08, 21 February 2006 (UTC) (PS, strongly disagree with "part of greatness is not having to say it". This is an encylopedia. Saying it is what we do.)

Would you please make similar posts on the Cambridge University talk page. Courier new 22:15, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Why? AndyJones 22:52, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

You replied on my talk page. I'll think about it. Meantime, I'm sure we haven't solved this problem, if indeed there is a problem. Shakespeare is the world's most significant writer. Failing to say so in the opening sentence of his encylopedia article does no-one any services. (Especially on the grounds that "People can determine that for themselves" - no, this is an encyclopedia, we need to tell them.) My opinion is that we should return to the former wording, possibly with mild modification, or some footnotes, to avoid weasel words. I will make that change later today unless someone gets there before me, or someone with a better argument than User:Courier new's comes along. AndyJones 11:02, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

PS excellent work by User:Bwithh, although I wonder if perhaps that's too much for the introduction and might be better in the body of the article. I'm not going to make that change - just raising it for other editors to consider. AndyJones 11:02, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you on both counts; I've restored the assertion of notability and provisionally shifted Bwithh's excellent contribution to Wikiquote. Feel free to incorporate the quotes back into the body of the article. --Muchness 12:49, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I definitely think it's vital that the standard reading of Shakespeare's importance be in the opening paragraph. As Andy said, it's an encyclopedia, and the role of an encyclopedia is to tell people the obvious things they should know about a person. I guess it's possible to find a list of scholars who believe Shakespeare to be the world's preeminent dramatist, but I think that's sort of beside the point. He's considered the best, we know he's considered the best, it's painfully clear he's considered the best, we should put it in. Makemi 16:45, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Since the consensus here seems to be that we should at least introduce his relative status at the outset (and upon reconsideration, I tend to agree with at least that much), then I took it upon myself to remove Courrier's weasel tag. Aside from some mild recommendations for moderation (following the introduction), this article requires only minor change and isn't deserving of the weasel tag. Let's consider specific edits and continue along with the routine process of continuous improvement. Rklawton 18:01, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Is Shakespeare universally considered the world's pre-eminent dramatist, or just in the English-speaking world? I know that the French considered him second-rate for a long time, and many French critics (e.g. Voltaire) preferred Racine. And what about Lope de Vega in Spain? Or, umm, Schiller and Goethe in Germany? I do have the sense that, due to a particularly good translation, Shakespeare is widely respected in Germany, but we should still be careful when discussing literature about asserting as general truths things which are actually only truths to the anglophone community. john k 19:58, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

You make an excellent point. I would support qualifying it with "English-language dramatist", or "in the English-speaking world". I meant to qualify it, but that durn bias of my own experience keeps creeping in :) Makemi 20:21, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi, i was wondernig if you could answer this question about shakespear's lives it is said that in his college years he played a prank on his professor is it true. thanks bond, james bond

Weasel Words

This article, filled with weasel words, clearly violates Wikipedia's standards for quality. Courier new 01:08, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Do you have any suggestions for improvements? The Singing Badger 02:18, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I have the same question. Complaining about weasel words is legitimate, but your only suggestions for dealing with the problem, so far, have involved deleting an important comment on the grounds that it is supported by weasel words. Could you please quote some sentences that contain weasel words, and then propose some improvement? It is clear to me that the regular editors on this page don't consider this to be a big problem. It follows that complaining about the problem to the people already here will not get it solved. That responsibility is therefore on you. AndyJones 09:53, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

PS Note, though, that I've done a bit of editing on this page today but I've allowed the {weasel} tag to stand, temporarily, to see what comments it attracts. AndyJones 10:40, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually, if you see the discussion previous to this you will see (in a response to this came editor) that the consensus of editors here is that the article does not use weasel words. The consensus is that the article is NPOV and factual. I challenge Courier new to name one writer whose works have been translated into more languages, whose works are performed more often in the world each day, whose works are adapted to more formats like movies, than Shakespeare. I agree that words like "greatest" and "most experts agree" should not be used too often in an encyclopdia but in this case that IS the accepted acadamic and literary consensus. In addtion, the template should NOT be allowed to remain when the consensus among editors here is that the article is NPOV. All of that said, the article would benefit greatly from inline citations. Anyone feeling up to that?--Alabamaboy 13:25, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

One more point: Courier new is a new user, most of whose edits have been on talk pages where he/she rants at times about Wikipedia not being a reliable source of info. For example, here [2] and [3]. Other editors have also claimed that Courier new is adding POV templates and challenges on numerous articles without evidence or anything to backup the claim. [4]. Finally, it also appears that Courier new is using the Shakespeare article to make a point, which is proved by this comment where he states, "Personally, I find Shakespeare to be terribly overrated. His characters have little depth."[5]. Since making edits to prove a point is against Wikipedia guidelines, I suggest we move beyond this editor's challenges to this article. --Alabamaboy 15:24, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I do wish Courier New would explain himself more- what does he mean when he says that Shakespeare's characters have "little depth"? Does he have concrete examples? Or is it just more of his sophomoric provocateurism? Perhaps it tells us more about Courier New than about Shakespeare? I'm afraid I may have inspired Courier New to have come to this page by raising the subject of Shakespeare in my discussion on the Cambridge page as indicated by Alabamaboy. I tried to help the Shakespeare page with this contribution though. I see that this effort of mine was shifted to Wikiquote - fine, but perhaps the lead paragraph here could link to the wikiquote section (Which could be expanded greatly beyond the few quotes I selected.), then people could see that so-called "weasel words" are actually backed up by the perspectives of many notable people throughout the centuries. Incidentally, here is the Shakespeare entry lead passage from the Microsoft Network Encarta Encyclopedia:

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761562101/Shakespeare.html "William Shakespeare (1564-1616), English playwright and poet, recognized in much of the world as the greatest of all dramatists. Hundreds of editions of his plays have been published, including translations in all major languages. Scholars have written thousands of books and articles about his plots, characters, themes, and language. He is the most widely quoted author in history, and his plays have probably been performed more times than those of any other dramatist.

There is no simple explanation for Shakespeare’s unrivaled popularity, but he remains our greatest entertainer and perhaps our most profound thinker. He had a remarkable knowledge of human behavior, which he was able to communicate through his portrayal of a wide variety of characters. He was able to enter fully into the point of view of each of his characters and to create vivid dramatic situations in which to explore human motivations and behavior. His mastery of poetic language and of the techniques of drama enabled him to combine these multiple viewpoints, human motives, and actions to produce a uniquely compelling theatrical experience."

I think that Encarta passage needs reworking in a number of ways - its rather over the top here and there ("our greatest entertainer", "our most profound thinker"), but I think (As noted in the Cambridge discussion) that Encyclopedias would be impoverished as educational devices if they were fanatically NPOV. Bwithh 15:40, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

It really is not necessary for me to have to argue against the use of such wording when others, representing the consensus of editors, have set the policy (see {{shortcut|WP:WEASEL). Why should an exception to the standard be made for this article? It seems unfair to the members of Wikipedia, who work to uphold this standard, and to the readers of these articles, who do not have patience for being spoonfeed biased information.

It is, of course, important to always remember that the perceived quality of Shakespeare's work is not inherent but wholly subjective. If you want to express your opinions on Shakespeare, this is not the proper forum (see urbandictionary.com). Courier new 17:13, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

That's not unarguably obviously correct - it may be obvious on the other hand that the perceived quality (rather than the repuation) of a literary work *is* to some degree inherent and is not wholly subjective. That's why sophisticated literature from different cultures can be understood and celebrated in other cultures. One can reasonably dislike Shakespeare, one reasonably may find the work overrated and boring, but suggesting that it seriously "lacks depth" or complexity or fluency or sophistication is another thing all together. In addition, beyond the inherent critical quality of a work, there is a point were there is such a widely held opinion in society that it becomes a significant and widely consequential factor of that society. Courier New seems to be attached to an utterly inflexible and nihilist relativist view of cultural value. Bwithh 22:01, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

There is nothing POV about stating that the critical view of Shakespeare is that he "is widely regarded as the greatest writer in the English language, as well as one of the greatest in Western literature, and the world's pre-eminent dramatist." This is the overwhelming critical assessment of Shakespeare and to not state this would be unencyclopedic. The Encarta passage Bwithh quotes from is similar to ALL other major encyclopedia entries on Shakespeare. And, as I said, based on your own statements you are editing this article to make a point about Shakespeare's writings, which is not allowed here. --Alabamaboy 18:22, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of Courier New's motives, I think he/she is making a valid point. Courier New is concerned that the article is saying that Shakespeare is the greatest dramatist. That is clearly POV. But if we can find a wording that stresses that his status as 'greatest writer' is not an objective fact but rather an idea about Shakespeare that is present in world culture (even people who have never read or seen one of his plays will still be aware that they are 'supposed' to think he is the greatest writer), then we will succeed in being encyclopaedic and unbiased. A possible rewording is to use the phrase 'Shakespeare has a reputation as the world's greatest writer'. Can anyone think of something better than that? The Singing Badger 18:45, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I disagree that there is a POV problem here. However, I'd be okay with adding the word "reputation" (although that is splitting hairs to me, but since it doesn't change the overall meaning the word is ok). An alternative is to state that he "is widely regarded by literary critics as ..." --Alabamaboy 18:51, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm fine with modifying with "reputation" too. Bwithh 22:01, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Please don't remove the tags. If you insist on keeping weasel words in the article, then people should be warned. Courier new 20:36, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

As I've said over at the Cambridge discussion, you are not the sole authority above any consensus. Please do not ignore other people's discussion and efforts Bwithh 22:01, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I removed the following from the article – "He is also often referred to as the most quoted writer in English-speaking or even world history" – because I think it's best not to add more vague / unsourced attribution while this dispute is on-going. --Muchness 21:54, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I'm adding it back with references. There's a ton of them on google. Bwithh 22:01, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

The most quoted factoid seems to be sourced from the Oxford English Dictionary (Which has the databases to statistically survey this kind of thing). I have reference to a OED brochure which briefly mentions Shakespeare. i will try to find a more detailed source Bwithh 22:25, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

So I've backed up the lead with support references from several encyclopedias and the Oxford English Dictionary (wonderful day that wikipedia has to depend on other encyclopedias to support its authority, but these are the times we live in). On the other hand, perhaps since all these encyclopedias report so much opinion, they really belong as entries on urbandictionary.com, as Courier New suggests Bwithh 22:23, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Also - some suggestions for further back up material - 1) add university courses on Shakespeare which celebrate him 2) Expand the wikiquote section. Bwithh 22:27, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, the article Shakespeare's reputation is very good for supporting material. I';ve only just read it myself. Perhaps others haven;t seen it yet? Perhaps it should be referenced int he lead passage here. Bwithh 22:31, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate all the hard work, Bwithh, but the lead is now very awkward. From Oxford's New American Dictionary, would serve well as a template: "Shakespeare |ˈ sh ākˌspi(ə)r| Shakespeare, William(1564–1616), English playwright. His plays are written mostly in blank verse and include comedies, historical plays, the Greek and Roman plays, enigmatic comedies, the great tragedies, and the group of tragicomedies with which he ended his career. He also wrote more than 150 sonnets, which were published in 1609, as well as narrative poems." Pithy, informative, free of biased statements -- it is all of these things. Thanks Courier new 00:47, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

This is not a dictionary, it's an encyclopedia. Encyclopedias do not have to be pithy. One of their jobs is to present all the information there is about a subject. An encyclopedia that failed to mention that Shakespeare has a reputation as the greatest writer (note that I'm not saying that he is the greatest writer, just that he is reputed to be) would be failing in its duty. William Shakespeare is regularly called the greatest writer ever; Thomas Middleton, Margaret Atwood and Aeschylus are not. This is an important difference that needs noting. If you want to persuade us that you're right, find an encyclopedia that fails to mention Shakespeare's reputation for greatness. The Singing Badger 01:33, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I am going to warn Courier new not to keep reverting the article by adding that template in over and over. This discussion here is fixing the so-called issue he raised and if he keeps reverting he will violate the 3RR rule, resulting in a block. Otherwise, the edits to this article seem to be addressing this POV issue while also retaining vital information. I also love all the new references. Thanks for the excellent work.--Alabamaboy 01:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

• I have nothing new to add to the debate, this morning, but I want to add my endorsement to Alabamaboy's, above, for all the excellent work being done here. AndyJones 11:02, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Nontruths do not belong in an encyclopedia. Handy references from

• Appeal to Authority
• Anonymous Authorities
• Appeal to Popularity

Courier new 21:56, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

(copy/pasted material from above links deleted; it was adversely affecting the talk page's formatting and readability – see diff for original post) --Muchness 23:26, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Response: I'm probably going to regret responding to such an eccentric post, but Courier New, could you clarify something? What 'untruth' are you complaining about? Are you saying it is untrue that Shakespeare is the greatest author in the world, or are you saying that it is untrue that he is frequently claimed to be the greatest author? The latter is what the article currently says. Is that what you are disputing? Please try to express yourself more clearly. The Singing Badger 23:05, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Both. It would be redundant to explain why both statements do not impart any truth, so I will not. Courier new 23:39, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry Courier, some of us here aren't as smart as you, so you'll have to do better than that. Are you saying (a) Shakespeare does not have a reputation as the greatest author? or are you saying (b) the fact that many famous people have claimed Shakespeare to be the greatest author does not prove that he is? Your wording implies the latter, but I'm not sure. These are quite different issues, so once we understand what your specific complaint is, we can address it better. The Singing Badger 23:53, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

What I mean to say is that you cannot prove the first and if you somehow could, which I will again stress that you cannot, it would still not prove anything and would therefore be nothing more than a vacuous statement. Also, it is not necessary to be sarcastic. Courier new 01:55, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

It isn't necessary to be obstreperous either, so let's move on. Could you please explain why it is impossible to prove that Shakespeare has a reputation for being the greatest writer. If you were saying 'there can be no such thing as the greatest writer because it's all subjective' I would agree wholeheartedly with you. But that doesn't mean that when a writer is regularly lauded as such we should pretend it never happened.

Think of it this way. If I hunted high and low, I would never find anyone who claimed that Thomas Dekker was the greatest writer who has ever lived. Sorry Dekker, but that's the way it is. Yet I can find plenty of great thinkers who have adulated Shakespeare (see the Wikiquote reference that somebody put into the article for a few examples). We thus have a quantifiable difference between a writer who has never been claimed as the greatest, and a writer who often has. How, then, can you say that Shakespeare's reputation is the same as Dekker's?! It simply isn't. And once again I am not talking about the quality of Shakespeare's work, only the common cultural myths and beliefs about it.

Please explain yourself. I really am baffled by you. The Singing Badger 02:39, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

How can you prove that no person has ever claimed Dekker to be the greatest writer? Simply, you cannot (see http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/distract/ig.htm). Some questions I am curious to have answered: since we do not know who these persons are, how can we determine if they have any expertise; and is a belief made right if its acceptance is perceived to be ubiquitous? Courier new 04:53, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

It can't be proved that Shakespeare has a reputation as the greatest English writer in the same sense that it can't be proved Shakespeare ever existed (literary hoax, the body is of someone else). But we know he did exist, and we equally know his reputation. 203.173.51.235 11:49, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry Courier, but there are some hurdles you need to get over before this conversation can continue.

First, you're writing about the article as it was, not as it is. There is now a nice link showing you that such people as Larry Olivier, Nabokov and D.H. Lawrence have celebrated Shakespeare as the greatest writer. Furthermore, you can settle down to read the lengthy Shakespeare's reputation article, helpfully linked to in the opening paragraph, which will give you a huge array of famous literary critics and writers who hold the same belief. Do they have the expertise you are seeking? If not, who does?

Secondly, you ask "is a belief made right if its acceptance is perceived to be ubiquitous?". This is where I start to get bored, because you are still convinced that this article is trying to prove that Shakespeare is the greatest writer. It isn't. It's simply trying to state the quantifiable fact that there is a widespread myth about Shakespeare's supremacy.

And this really is quantifiable, you know. May I politely suggest that you undertake a survey of secondary school curricula in various western countries. I would like you to count the number that require their pupils to read a Shakespeare play, and the number that don't. While you're doing it, count the number that spurn Shakespeare in favour of Thomas Dekker. I know what you'll find (and so do you, I suspect): you'll find that virtually all of them require Shakespeare to be read, and none of them Dekker. Then I would like you to ponder what this tells us about Shakespeare's reputation (not, I repeat with a bored and weary expression, what it tells us about his quality, but what that quality is reputed to be by mainstream educators). Why do I ask you to do the work and not do it myself? Because having been through the school system I know perfectly well what the answer will be; but if I'm wrong, by all means dissuade me. The Singing Badger 13:15, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I think the fundamental problem with Courier New's arguments is that if they were accepted then no normative comment could find its way into an encyclopedia at all. Of course Shakespeare's greatness is subjective. So are the opinions of everyone who ever thought he was great, and the opinions of everyone who ever thought he wasn't. But NPOV isn't about excluding huge swathes of human knowledge on the grounds that they cannot be proved "true" in some objective sense. It is about presenting those ideas in an unbiased way.

Anyway, at this point, I think I have to bow out of this thread. I will continue to edit the page, but I don't want to continue to engage with a debate which has (in my entirely subjective opinion) got silly. AndyJones 13:55, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Courier sounds like a college student who just took his first class in logic and debate. Hilarious. Still, that doesn't change the fact that he is caught in a logical loop and is adding nothing to this discussion. I agree with AndyJones and believe this debate has gone off the deep end. In my opinion, consensus on this issue has been achieved and I think the article is much better than it was. --Alabamaboy 13:58, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I think Courier did make a valid and useful point that citations were needed in the opening paragraph. This has now been done, and the article is better for it. But I agree that he/she is now just being sophomoric. The Singing Badger 14:59, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I second that comment about citations and also thank Courier for helping us achieve them.--Alabamaboy 15:04, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Works

I just did a comparison of the current version of this page with its version from a few days ago. The "Works" section has disappeared. Is that deliberate or a piece of vandalism? Sorry to raise it here, but I don't have the time to investigate in detail. AndyJones 13:38, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

It was vandalism that got missed in the unceasing flow of vandalism. I've fixed it. The Singing Badger 14:17, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

The same thing happened a month or two back. A vandal deleted an entire section of the article and none of us noticed for at least two weeks. That's the downside to repeated high levels of vandalism. It appears to me that this is one of the most vandalized articles on Wikipedia (I believe George W. Bush is the top one).--Alabamaboy 14:43, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Erm... is there an upside to high vandalism levels? :S The Singing Badger 16:00, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Ha! Good point. Don't know why I used that cliche to open that sentence :-).--Alabamaboy 16:56, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Semi-protect

I think everyone will agree that the semi-protection has been a success, with zero vandalism since this was done on March 16. That said, the policy of Wikipedia is to not let articles be semi-protected indefinately. I'm going to remove the protect in a moment and we'll see if the anonymous vandalism returns at the previous high levels. If it does, I'll semi-protect it again after a day or two. If I have to semi-protect again, I'll leave the protection up for a longer time.

BTW, my theory on why this articles gets hit so much is because there are so many high school students reading Shakespeare. Guess the Bard is still touching a nerve with kids :-).--Alabamaboy 16:43, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I definitely support the semi-protection. If you semi-protect the article again, maybe leave it up until school term ends? (i.e. June?) The Singing Badger 16:59, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

The first vandalism after semi-protection was lifted occurred after only 18 minutes. [6] The Singing Badger 17:10, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I'll aim for doing that. In some ways, this is a stategic chess move. By showing that we tried to not semi-protect the article all the time, we strengthen the case for leaving the semi-protect up for a longer period of time in the future.--Alabamaboy 17:37, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

My only question, really, is whether I can make good edits to a protected page? AndyJones 13:26, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

It's only protected from anonymous or new users, so you'll be fine. The Singing Badger 14:01, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, only protected against anonymous and users who have been on Wikipedia less than 4 days. At this point, though, it doesn't appear that I'll be able to semi-protect the article. We're no longer seeing the levels of vandalism we had before I semi-protected it. This makes me wonder if we had one or two anonymous vandals who were targeting the article. Anyway, I'll keep and eye on the article and if vandalism approached previous levels I will immediately semi-protect it.--Alabamaboy 14:15, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I believe vandalism has reached earlier levels. I'm going to semi-protect the article again.--Alabamaboy 21:07, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Good choice. Just to give some figures, I counted approximately 40 vandalisms between 21 and 24 of March. We also had more than one instance of vandalism being missed going unnoticed for a while due to the high volumes. I think this justifies keeping semi-protection on permanently (or at least until the schools are on vacation)... The Singing Badger 21:21, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

• Agreed, good choice. I tend to think that semi-protection is going to slowly drift in the direction of preventing new users from editing articles though. I can see a day when anon IPs can't edit, only registered users, and only that after they've been registered for a few days and confirmed their registration with a valid e-mail address bounce back. Note; I'm not advocating that, just stating that I think that's where we are ultimately headed. --Durin 00:35, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I have just unprotected this again. It is important to try this much regularly than every few months, and it is important to try this with the full intention of allowing wiki editing to happen freely. Anons can edit: ergo they can vandalise and this has to be tolerated sometimes. This article gets busy, but it is much less busy than some articles which spend the bulk of their time unsprotected. There is no case for a permanent semi-protect since that is not supported in WP:SEMI, or by the very many discussions that have taken place at Talk:George W. Bush where the idea faces permanent opposition. It's just that the editors of that article are particularly insistent. -Splash^talk 21:41, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I disagree. This article has a level of vandalism that compares with the Bush article. As you may have seen from the history here, I removed the semi-protect not too long after the first protection period and kept it off for several days to see if the vandalism would drop down to a lower level. It did not so I semi-protected again and had planned on removing the sp next week to see what happened. The consensus of editors here is to keep the article semi-protected for long periods. That said, we'll see what happens now that it is unprotected. I will, though, semi-protect it again if vandalism jumps back to previous levels and if the consensus of the article's editors is to do so. Best, --Alabamaboy 21:45, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Men playing older women

I've been asked to source the contention that older women may have been played by men. It will probably remain "boys" since my source is an online scholarly Shakespeare discussion list (SHAKSPER) which includes more than a few academes, and which I participate in. The question sometimes comes up (http://www.shaksper.net/archives/1996/0204.html) and is considered at least a possibility by some. But since it isn't an actual publication, it probably doesn't count. Carlo 03:33, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

The people on the discussion thread are academics, but it remains the case that they're just saying 'I think...' without providing any evidence. To the best of my knowledge there is no concrete evidence for men playing women, only boys. But if you can find anything, add it in! The Singing Badger 04:17, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I was at a conference in Stratford a couple of weeks ago, where the lecturer made the point that the "boys" of the acting companies would have been aged about 14 to 24, so the perception I think we get from the use of the word "boys" - that female parts were played by youngsters whose voices had not yet broken - is wrong. I'll see if I can find a source for this. Also, Carlo, there's no reason not to mention this thread at Shaksper and ask for a source there, if you like. Give them a link to this page. It seems logical to me, from modern productions, that older women would have been played by men not boys. I've seen a male Mistress Overdone, for example: not a part you'd give to a youth. AndyJones 12:26, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Andy's point is important, although much of the debate over this question involves those who believe that roles like Cleopatra and Lady Macbeth are so sophisticated that they could only have been performed by mature men (as opposed to teenagers or twentysomethings). This is a popular belief, but there's no evidence for it. Books on the subject include Michael Shapiro's Children of the Revels and Joy Leslie Gibson's Squeaking Cleopatras, if anyone has access to them. The Singing Badger 13:24, 30 March 2006 (UTC)