Talk:2019–20 Australian bushfire season

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Skyring In regard to this revert by you. Sorry, but your edit summary was not that helpful. Can you please advise which WP:RSN discussion. Also, it seems to me you have confused the utilisation of the sources used to provide the content, they being the content themselves, as distinct from using a source a verify content about a subject. If I was relying on the sources to provide information about some subject, yes I would totally agree with you. However, I am not doing this. The article content is matter-of-factly describing the source. It is not using the source to provide content about a 3rd party subject. Regards. Aoziwe (talk) 10:35, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Let me put it clearly. Use reliable sources for Wikipedia. If a nickname is notable, it will be widely used. --Pete (talk) 10:39, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes. Exactly. Which is why the content, currently removed, showed that morrison fires was only being used in fringe domains! Aoziwe (talk) 10:45, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Good. Suggest we move on to useful work. Thanks. --Pete (talk) 10:48, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

I thought it was. Can you please explain how any of the content currently removed is not factual and cannot be reliably verified using the sources provided. Note that article content is about the sources, not the contained subject matter in the sources' contents. Aoziwe (talk) 11:05, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Petitions are used generated content and as such are not WP:RS. XavierItzm (talk) 21:37, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

• Should mention that there are people who proposed that name, there are sources that reported that, here is a source for example [1] "A Change.org petition is seeking to name the as-yet-unnamed fires “the Morrison Fires,” arguing the prime minister holds responsibility due to his failure to act"--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk)
  • We don't mention every tinpot political discussion on the internet, especially when this is an article about bushfires. --Pete (talk) 22:33, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

As that guideline says, "the "importance" of a fact is subjective". I doubt this isn't an important content and it is reported in RSs.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 22:45, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia:HTRIVIA applies. XavierItzm (talk) 22:27, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Bushfires are over. Request to change status

The bushfires have largely been extinguished. We should make the appropriate changes to this article to reflect the situation. Who agrees with me?

The Australian bushfire season does not end until April/May. This is irrespective of whether there are any catastrophic fires burning or not. Sign your posts, btw. Mr rnddude (talk) 01:44, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Season isn't over just because SE Qld, eastern NSW and far east of Vic had rain which has help control and list fires as out, there is still SA, WA and parts of Vic and southern NSW who are still dry. Bidgee (talk) 03:43, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Hmmmm? Helicopters with water bombing bags were still flying today on the far south coast of New South Wales ... ! We have 40kha of fire ground with active active areas the edge of which is only 6km away, so a few hot days and anything other than an easterly wind and it will be bloody dangerous again. (And that is after at least 150mm of rain!) Aoziwe (talk) 11:22, 20 February 2020 (UTC) (PS And that does not include the VIC-NSW border fires. Aoziwe (talk) 11:26, 20 February 2020 (UTC))

FYI - update: Far SE NSW as of morning 25 Feb still had ~200 "hot spots", one running edge on a fire ground, and [nine] helicopters [stationed at Merimbula airport] running FLIR surveilance, water bombing, and remote area fire team insertions ... according to the RFS on ABC radio. Aoziwe (talk) 11:54, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

An IP editor today declared this fire season over, by putting "Mar 2020" in the Infobox as the end date. I reverted, because this an article for the whole of Australia, and we simply cannot know that there will be no more fires. Then my best mate Pete/Skyring who, although our mutual interaction ban has long since ceased, still keeps a close eye on my work just in case I stuff up and he needs to publicly point it out, re-reverted, accusing ME of having a crystal ball. I say again, we simply cannot declare the fire season to be over for the whole country at this point in time. HiLo48 (talk) 02:20, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Nothing personal, HiLo. I merely wondered about the logic of when the current season ends. Is there some settled date? If the fires stop burning and don't start up again, then do we regard the season as ending when the last fire smoulders out? Or is there some official ending date gazetted by authority?

It seems to me that if we say that the season is ongoing when there are, in point of fact, no actual bushfires remaining, then there can only be two bases for declaring that the season is ongoing:

1. There is some future date and we have not yet reached that date. If so, why not simply state the accepted future end date in our article? Is there some reason why it should be secret or nebulous?

2. There will be more bushfires in the current season. Well, there might be, but if anybody has the power to assess this ahead of time, please report to the State Fire Authority with your skills. We have need of you!

Is there some established wikiprecedent on this point? When do we as editors declare a season over, rather than ongoing? Perhaps that can provide a way forward? --Pete (talk) 06:47, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

I don't know the answers to all your questions. The critical thing is that you felt the need to ask them, highlighting the fact that you can't say with certainty that the fire season is over. Doing so would seem to be an act of synthesis anyway. HiLo48 (talk) 07:43, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Lay off me, HiLo. This isn't about you. If you can't provide some editorial input here, why don't you butt out? You reverted a change, we're now discussing it as per BRD, but you don't have any useful answers to my questions about format. Thanks for your input.

For everyone else here, I see from looking at previous articles in this series, that the five most recent seasons are listed as ending in May. Some of them are noted to have started in June the previous year, effectively making a bushfire season of 12 months.

Why don't we just bite the bullet and declare that Australian bushfire seasons are now July to June - like the tax year?

If, on the other hand, the season depends on actual fires, and there are no actual fires, then saying that it is ongoing seems like crystal-balling. --Pete (talk) 08:00, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

The season does not depend on active fires, but on the risk of fires (and that is highly variable across the nation, hence no specific dates). Right now, due to the flooding risks that much (most? I'm seeing flood warnings for all states and territories) of Australia is facing, the fire risk is relatively low (There is a current severe risk of fire warning in two areas of WA by BOM1) To answer the question [w]hen do we as editors declare a season over? Editors don't. Mr rnddude (talk) 09:19, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Obviously we aren't controlling weather and fires and so on out in the physical world, but we do control this little bit of the Internet, and looking at previous articles in this series, somebody picks an end date, and that's what the article says. What, I'm wondering, is the protocol for doing this? Based on previous years, I mean. --Pete (talk) 10:42, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Fire danger period (FDP) is still current for most of NSW (until 31 March, though can be extended in regions if required) but has ended in the NE corner on 1 March. FDP is current until 1 April in most of Victoria, FDS (Fire Danger Seasons) will be from 15-30 April over most of South Australia. Western Australia on the other hand uses "Prohibited Burning Period" (typically 1 Dec-31 Mar) and "Restrictive Burning Period" (typically 1 Apr-31 May and 1 Oct-30 Nov).

While the rain has eased conditions over most of the east coast, a lull in fires doesn't mean the season is over. At 27 Feb, Snowy Complex fire is still burning in Victoria (contained does not mean it is out, just that it is behind control lines) and the Commissioner has warned that Vic is still risk of fires. A fire season does not rely on active fire, like a Cyclone season does not rely on cyclones, it is typically the period of time that the risk is at its highest and some seasons are longer than others. Bidgee (talk) 11:58, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

FWIW - FYI: There were still helicopters carrying water bombing baskets out of Merimbula airport yesterday ... (It has rained all today though. But again, we are so far behind on rainfall it will only take a few hot days with dry westerlies and it will be on again ... There is so much dead and drought affected timber in the forests, with years of fuel build up, just waiting to burn ...) Aoziwe (talk) 10:37, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

I asked Google "when does australian bush fire season end", which turned up (amongst other things):

• NSW Rural Fire services says: "The statutory Bush Fire Danger Period normally starts on 1 October and continues through the following 31 March."
• ACT Government says: "The ACT bushfire season usually commences on 1 October and runs through until until 31 March unless conditions warrant an extension."
• Bureau of Meteorology says it varies across the country, but "Figure 1: Fire seasons in Australia" includes "Summer and autumn" for the southern-most parts of the country

So, even in the absence of any fires, we can surely say that the "Australian season" lasts at least until the end of March. Mitch Ames (talk) 11:59, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, Mitch! Ulk. That doesn't help as much as I hoped. State by state or continent-wide? How do we choose?

One thing seems certain to me. We as editors cannot make our own determination. We need a source. I wonder what the sourcing for previous season articles was? --Pete (talk) 14:55, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

One only has to look at Bushfires in Australia#Seasonality ... Aoziwe (talk) 12:12, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Surely the logical answer is to leave the end date as "ongoing" until 30 June, then look back at when the last significant fire was, and put a finishing date in place of "ongoing" then. HiLo48 (talk) 21:40, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

I see no need to adding an end date yet, as that day hasn't come yet! Season may finish in April it may finish in June (since fire agencies can extend the fire danger period/season when required), we just don't have a crystal ball to know what the next few months are going to be like. Bidgee (talk) 23:25, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Obviously I agree, and must point out the irony of an editor who wants to insert an end date accusing me of using a crystal ball. HiLo48 (talk) 00:04, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

There are really only two ways we can say it ends. If we have an official future date for the end of the season - a circumstance which is so commonplace in sporting seasons etc. as to not be worthy of comment - then we can use that. Otherwise, if it depends on the actual presence of bushfires and the bushfires have ended, then we can use that. Saying, without a shred of evidence, that there will be future bushfires and therefore the season is ongoing without fires, is a clear case of WP:CRYSTAL. This isn't a matter of opinion, it's a matter of reality in editing the article.

Perhaps we can have an RfC and vote on the end date? Perhaps we can run a pool? --Pete (talk) 00:18, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Bothered looking at Western Australia and Tasmania? There are still fires burning. Even Victoria still has fires listed as "under control" and "contained", which doesn't mean the fires are out just that they are still burning but not out of control. Bidgee (talk) 00:41, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

There are always going to be bushfires somewhere. But your position seems to be that the end of the season is flexible, depending on the original research of editors as to what constitutes enough of a fire to leave a scorch mark on Wikipedia. This looks to be in contrast to our long-established consensus.

2018–19 Australian bushfire season Declared on 30 November 2018 to end in May 2019.

2017–18 Australian bushfire season Declared on 5 January 2018 to end in May 2018.

2016–17 Australian bushfire season Declared on 16 February 2017 to end in May 2017.

2015–16 Australian bushfire season Declared on 11 September 2015 to end in May 2016.

2014–15 Australian bushfire season Declared on 1 November 2014 to end in May 2015.

and

2009–10 Australian bushfire season Declared on 21 November 2009 to end in May 2010.

So. We've always declared that the season ends in May - as per a good official source in the Bureau of Meteorology noted above, and we've done so up to nine months in advance. Does anybody have a good argument as to why we should now change this longstanding consensus to suit the whims of original research and personal opinion? I'm all ears. --Pete (talk) 01:47, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

There is no consensus. Bidgee (talk) 02:48, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

How do you see that? For over ten years - links provided above - we have shown the current year's bushfire season as ending in May, and every year - again as per the diffs shown above - we have listed this several months ahead of time. I reckon ten years plus counts as a jolly good consensus in Wikipedia.

I'm counting four reverts by you in less than 24 hours. Please self-revert or I'll take this further. It looks to me like you are putting ego ahead of a very long consensus here, for no good reason that I can see. --Pete (talk) 02:54, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

That seems to be more a case of other stuff exists, rather than consensus. And it's historically become seen as acceptable to technically breach WP:3RR when reverting the efforts of someone editing without achieving consensus on the Talk page. My view on this article (all articles really) is that, rather than blindly following previous examples, we make it as good as we can today. HiLo48 (talk) 03:30, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

See this section in OSE. We're talking about keeping the same format in a template for a series of articles differing only in year. Saying that this article is significantly different and we should throw away ten years of consensus needs a pretty solid argument IMHO, and WP:IDLI isn't good enough to overturn that. Do you have any good reason to insist that we change our tack now? We've got a solid source in the Bureau of Meteorology as to when the annual bushfire season ends. Do you have a better one? --Pete (talk) 03:43, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm having trouble keeping up with what you are actually arguing for here. It seems to have changed a lot since the discussion began. And you are certainly misrepresenting my position. Please don't do that. HiLo48 (talk) 03:53, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

As per above. See links provided. For the past ten years and more we have created an annual article on the current year's bushfire season. Every one of those shows the bushfire season as ending in May, and we have always stated this several months in advance of that date. As per the diffs I've dug out. We don't wait for the bushfires to end, we don't guess, we go by the Bureau of Meteorology saying that's when the season ends. Again, link is provided above. Could you answer my questions as to why you think we should go against ten years of consensus, please? I'm not just picking a date out of my bum; I'm guided by what we've done for the past ten years here, but you seem to think we should change, and I'd like to hear your argument for this. --Pete (talk) 03:59, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

My argument is simply that we could do it better. Although I'm now an old fart, I have never accepted "We've always done it that way" as a reason to keep doing anything. HiLo48 (talk) 06:03, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Of course. If there is a better way to do something, then let it be done that way. But how, exactly, is this better? If you want to break long-established consensus then could you provide details of the improvements? --Pete (talk) 06:13, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Not playing any more of your silly baiting games thanks. I have made my position clear enough for anyone who wishes to understand it. HiLo48 (talk) 06:18, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Not playing a game, HiLo. I'm just trying to understand why you want to change the longstanding consensus on template format without giving any reasons as to how it is better than what we've always had. I've just reviewed the discussion archives. The change to "ongoing" was made by an IP editor here and not raised again in discussion until a different IP editor changed it to the current month. Neither you nor anybody else mentioned the end of the season, though there were some comments about the start. If it's an improvement on the existing format, it seems to have gone unremarked by all. What is the improvement you are now championing, exactly? You must have some reason for saying it is an improvement, surely? --Pete (talk) 06:34, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

I think it's important to let all involved here know that Pete/Skyring has reported Bidgee for Edit warring on this matter. See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Bidgee_reported_by_User:Skyring_(Result:_) HiLo48 (talk) 06:20, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

As per warning given above here and referenced here and notified on user talk here. Bidgee reverted four times in 24 hours. That's counter to policy, as you know. --Pete (talk) 06:34, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

It's also counter to policy to ignore every single editor on this talk page and then try to force your desired changes in. It is not yet May 2020, so by definition the season is ongoing. Mr rnddude (talk) 08:25, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

I don't think responding to others is ignoring them, brother. But hey, like the toilet paper wars, let's put all this behind us. --Pete (talk) 10:00, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Sorry but I could not resist - ironic considering this!! Aoziwe (talk) 10:30, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Page protected

Okay, I have full-protected the page to stop the argy-bargy. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:16, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Cas Liber, see the IP edits on this talk page. Can we have a semi protect here? Aoziwe (talk) 12:06, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

• Right, trying to digest this. Have read through and the consensus from everyone is to leave as ongoing except Skyring (talk · contribs) who states it should be march but provides some links to previous seasons saying it should be....May? I am puzzled. Agree it should be reffed to sources, so if we could bring it back to that below that would be good. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:22, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Taking up the way forward outlined by Cas Liber, I'm going to suggest an RfC as to the way forward. Anyone keen to draft something that canvasses the options discussed above? --Pete (talk) 10:00, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Not sure that it is clear to me what the argued options out of the above actually are. Are they:

1 Leave as ongoing until time has run its course and come June see what is available in sources, ie no crystal balling

2 Model on what has been done before as a currnt concensus / precedent

3 Go to some actual sources, eg,

a typical example of bush fire frequency - see figure 5: https://www.bushfirecrc.com/sites/default/files/managed/resource/posterprogc-bryant.pdf - seems to indicate why the colloquial season should range from June to May? ie, the minimum is at the end of May / start of June?

Not sure if this helps - needs aggregation across states: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4785963/

4 define separately for southern and eastern Australia versus central Australia versus northern and tropical Australia

Do we really need and RFC and will it help? As per Bushfires in Australia#Seasonality there is not really one season for the whole of Australia. All the current "season articles" are really based around southern and eastern Australia? Aoziwe (talk) 11:33, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Well, as per the advice given above, let's use wikiprocedure to find a solution amenable to all. I'm kind of puzzled as to how we can reliably say when the season is over. The way some are talking, it's ongoing as long as there are fires burning. What if they keep on burning here and there around Australia until, say, October? And what sort of source do we take as authoritative? The Moonee Ponds Star, a consensus of Wikipedians, the Bureau of Meteorology?

HiLo, in rejecting the precedent of the past ten years of these articles, where we have used the definition of bushfire seasons provided by the Bureau, says "My argument is simply that we could do it better." Perhaps he could put in his precise and better methodology as an option, so we are all clear as to the improvements over what we have done previously? I think it important that if there are ways of improving our performance, we examine them. Having people edit-war and abuse each other here is terrible behaviour in what WIRED recently called "The Last Best Place on the Internet". We can do better. --Pete (talk) 21:38, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Speaking of ignoring, despite your typically false and inflammatory accusations, I have used many words in many places in these discussions to say what I think should be done, and why. There is no need for an RfC. It's not that big an issue. There is simply a need to recognise that we can always move on and do things better than we have in the past. I will one point you have raised more recently in your constantly changing position here. The BOM does not define fire seasons. It is done by state governments, local government, and regional fire authorities, and they set many different periods throughout the country. No central source can give us the answer you claim already exists. We must also always avoid looking at this from a particular local perspective. We must look at the whole country, something that can be difficult if one only looks at material from one's home city. HiLo48 (talk) 22:07, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

The Bureau of Meteorology is a federal government agency, so it covers the whole country, and when you followed the link given above you saw that it has different seasons for different regions, as per the map. I think it's pretty authoritative, as have editors for the past ten years, but you have a better idea, as you insist above, so please present it, and we can look at it in a polite and practical fashion. --Pete (talk) 22:23, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

I have presented my ideas multiple times in these discussions. You acting as if I haven't is purely confrontational behaviour, and leads me to return to one of my favourite Wikipedia essays for guidance. HiLo48 (talk) 23:24, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

At the moment we're looking at assembling a list of RfC options, as per above. You can have input or not. If you DGAF, that's fine, we'll work through it without your "better option". You have been invited to participate, but if you choose not to, that's entirely your decision, and I'll respect it. Thanks for letting us know. --Pete (talk) 06:06, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

"we're", we'll, "us"? It is only you. You don't speak for the rest of us, nor do I speak for anyone else. Why ignore what the fire agencies use and only focus on the BoM (who only provide forecasts, not the FDP)? Fire seasons do not follow days, weeks or months and every season is different. Bidgee (talk) 06:35, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a coöperative venture. There is definitely a feeling of "us" in this grand achievement. I like to think that we sacrifice ego at the altar of wisdom here. Aoziwe's suggestions above are a good start, and RfCs are part of the lubricant we apply to reduce the inevitable social friction. We're all in this together, we follow the procedures, and it works wonderfully well. The BoM makes the very important point that different regions have different seasons. It's not one size fits all for the whole continent. Northern Australia is driest in the winter, and they get their fires then. Bushfires are still bushfires, and I think if we are having an article that covers all of Australia, we have to cover all of Australia.

Having a season that lasts twelve months seems to be the reality, given the diversity of climate and terrain. Perhaps we could usefully call it a "year" rather than a season, just as we have a financial year that doesn't match up with the calendar year. As HiLo says, we can always do better. The beauty of an RfC is that everybody gets a chance to comment and we get eyes from outside, who might find different - and better - ways of dealing with the problem.

That's how Wikipedia improves year after year, bit by bit. It's not a top-down thing, it's we editors working out amongst ourselves how to do the job better, how to present information in a more accessible fashion, how to work together. --Pete (talk) 08:58, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed) I have requested an Admin to review this comment. Bidgee (talk) 13:29, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

See discussion below. --Pete (talk) 21:53, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

Please stop using "we" and "us" in your comments, you don't speak for me or anyone else. Correct, Australia is a complex country and that is why fire agencies have different times when FDP start and end, these are sometimes the same season after season but sometimes differing. Fires in Northern Australia do not alway start at the same time (month) every year, it all depends on the Monsoon. Bidgee (talk) 09:48, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

I speak as one of the Wikipedia community, to which we all belong. We are all bound by WP:NOR, for example. The way I see it is that there are two schools of thought:

1. The fire season begins with the first fire of the season and ends with the last. There could be long and short fire seasons, for example. A hot, dry period - say, a drought - might have a longer season than a time with lots of rain.

2. The fire season begins and ends on set dates, as per the BoM, the model used here for the past ten years. If you think about it, this is actually the correct way to determine the seasons, because otherwise how do we determine whether a given fire belongs in (say) the 2018/19 season or the 2019/20 season? We cannot guess; we must use sources.

We - those working on this article - must choose a method and stick by it. Edit-warring and hurling abuse at one another in an effort to mould the article to an ego-centric form is a terrible way to operate. An RfC will allow proponents of various models to discuss the issues in a controlled environment which we have often used before, and it will yield a result which we can all follow. I presume you agree with me on this, that co-operation and civility beat conflict and personal attacks? It seems to be the method supported by the WikiPowers That Be, at any rate, regardless of one's personal life and preferences. --Pete (talk) 12:51, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

"We(????!!!!)... must choose a method and stick by it." That's hilarious. By my reckoning, over the past few days YOU(!!!!!!), not we or us, have taken on three mutually exclusive positions, and been quite adamant about each one at the time, being somewhat rude to those with different views. Now you seem to have gone all wishy washy, and want an RfC to decide what your position might be in a few days time. I am certain that if you hadn't been here, the rest of us would have peacefully settled on a way of writing the final date for this year's season at this point in time (which is all that this began as) in a congenial and cooperative way. It is still only YOU who is asking for an RfC. You have no support for that proposal from anyone else involved in this discussion. Could we (and I suspect I'm right in saying "we") perhaps ask you to please step back for a few days and let everyone else work this out in a peaceful and stable environment? If you find the result so appalling, then you can the issue further. HiLo48 (talk) 21:51, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

Intro

I removed 2019–20 Australian bushfire season from the intro of this article, as well as Year–Year Australian bushfire season from the intros of all preceding Australian bushfire season articles, weeks ago. Those removals weren't reverted, bu my removal on this article was (about 2 or more weeks ago) reverted. Wowsers, when you ain't been around for a bit, ya can get your removal reversed rather quick. GoodDay (talk) 04:45, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Your earlier changes seemed to be justified according to WP:LEDE and the first sentence redundancy guidelines, but here there's also a note about the accepted duration of the bushfire season - FYI, it goes until May - and a comment about the PM's preferred name of "Black Summer". We don't really need to repeat the title in the first para here IMO. --Pete (talk) 04:59, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Consistency with other bushfire season articles

I've noticed that you look at previous bushfire season articles and they are WAY smaller than this one, to the point where it's actually quite inconsistent. I know this may seem like one basic request for such a big thing but doesn't anybody think that everything regarding the major fires during the season should be spun off into another article ala Black Saturday, and this article have a brief overview of the major fires and concentrate more on the precedents, social/political implications of the bushfire season, etc? It just seems jarring when the preceding five bushfire season articles just contain a brief overview/table of fires and then this one is extremely massive. Just my two cents. ToQ100gou! ToQ100gou! Shupatsu Shinkou! (the chitter-chatter) 07:33, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

Typically each season (excluding the quiet ones) only have a couple of major fires (which makes it easy to spin off to its own article), however this season was different and I'm not surprised that this article isn't like the others, after the wide spread nature and impact the bushfires have had this season. Bidgee (talk) 07:39, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

These bushfire articles are part of that challenging set of Wikipedia articles that are written while the (typically quite dramatic) events they describe are actually happening. They inevitably collect a fair bit of tabloid style trivia. This isn't a bad thing in the short term, but it's in the coming months that we need to clean this article up. There probably is too much detail of some of the events, and a bit of hype in places. I will be looking at it for where such improvement can be made, when I'm in that kind of a mood. However, because of what Bidgee has described above, this will always be a bigger article than those for most fire seasons. HiLo48 (talk) 08:15, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

Good idea. Other bushfire seasons have been worse, with more deaths, and this article suffers from people getting involved in all of the political flak flying around, trying to make mileage out of the fires, rather than looking at the actual fires. --Pete (talk) 08:44, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

Depends on how you look at it, while deaths were low compared to past season, this season was one of the worst. There will also ways be political flak with any natural disasters, scale and time is what makes it more noticeable. There is a lot to learn from this season, more facts will come out in the months to come. Bidgee (talk) 09:42, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

In short, yes, it needs a complete restructure. When the dust settles this will be done. See this and this for example. I have let the matter go quiet because, sorry, but I am sure that such an exercise will be difficult in the current climate (no pun intended), ie, if something as simple as an "end of season" generates the discussion it has ... Aoziwe (talk) 11:57, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

Personal attacks

I draw the attention of editors to the following, from Removal of personal attacks, which is a policy document, and one of the 5p:Five Pillars: Derogatory comments about other editors may be removed by any editor. However, there is no official policy regarding when or whether most personal attacks should be removed, although it has been a topic of substantial debate. Removing unquestionable personal attacks from your own user talk page is rarely a matter of concern. On other talk pages, especially where such text is directed against you, removal should typically be limited to clear-cut cases where it is obvious the text is a true personal attack. The (Personal attack removed) template can be used for this purpose.

I don't mind if someone gets a little emotional or snarky in discussion, so long as the discussion is moving forward. That's how we make progress on improving an article. But if a comment is entirely aimed at another editor, then where's the benefit to the project? Take up behaviour issues on the appropriate noticeboard where the discussion is controlled and monitored; that's what they are there for. But polluting serious Wikipedia work with purely personal comments is not beneficial to the project, and even if all the regular editors know each other, this sort of thing dissuades fresh editors. It's not as if we have enough people to do all the work anyway. Welcoming new users into the community instead of demonstrating a noxious work environment is what we should be all about. --Pete (talk) 22:02, 6 March 2020 (UTC)