Talk:GrapheneOS

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 11:58, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

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GrapheneOS logo

• ... that GrapheneOS (logo pictured) is a free and open-source operating system for selected Google Pixel smartphones, which was recommended by Edward Snowden? Source: "GrapheneOS is an AOSP (Android Open Source Project)", "GrapheneOS can only be installed on certain smartphones from the Google Pixel range." "There is recognition on Twitter by Edward Snowden : "If I configured a smartphone today, I would use GrapheneOS from Daniel Micay as the basic operating system."" [1]

• Comment: Quotes for the hook are translations from German

Created by Yae4 (talk). Self-nominated at 15:35, 16 December 2019 (UTC).

• Moved to mainspace on 16 December and nominated straight away. Article is long enough, stable, well written and referenced. Earwig's tool doesn't show any problems (many of the key sources are in German, so close paraphrasing is difficult to detect automatically, but a spotcheck shows no problems; AGF on Hungarian/Czech/Turkish sources). Hook is long enough, referenced, and certainly catchy. Image is used in the article, appropriate, and correctly licensed. Article author has no prior DYK noms, so no QPQ is required. In conclusion, good to go. Constantine ✍ 20:14, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Article now exists; delete Draft?

I don't know what's going on here, User:AngusWOOF, but this page now exists, and I've moved my edits (more sources) there. Maybe this draft could be binned now? -- Yae4 (talk) 18:48, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Someone bypassed the draft process. I've moved that one back to draft as (2). AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 19:03, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

I'll list my 3 best - based on my guess as to "professionalism" or having editorial staff, and amount of detail included in articles - here. Otherwise I'll wait for some indication it's not going to be a waste of time before spending much more. It seems to have international attention from a variety of sources, although some are blogs etc.:

0. https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/gadgets-news/doing-these-6-difficult-things-may-make-your-smartphone-hack-proof/articleshow/71252998.cms

1. https://www.origo.hu/techbazis/20190403-grapheneos-android-alapu-biztonsagos-rendszer.html

2. https://hub.packtpub.com/androidhardening-project-renamed-to-grapheneos-to-reflect-progress-and-expansion-of-the-project/ and

3. https://andro4all.com/2019/06/grapheneos-alternativa-android-caracteristicas

-- Yae4 (talk) 20:59, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

User:AngusWOOF, why was the article quickly moved back to draft, but SO slow to be moved to "active?" Wondering. -- Yae4 (talk) 16:31, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Yae4, I was hoping for someone who knows about tech/computing blogs could review this. They don't look like reliable sources on the WP:RSP to me so I tried to stay out. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 16:36, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

​ AngusWOOF, Below is more information supporting reliable sourcing.

• TimesofIndia source - Although Wikipedia is not reliable, The_Times_of_India says it's "third-largest newspaper in India by circulation and the second-largest selling English-language daily in the world." Wikipedia search shows 7290 hits in articles. Many are entertainment related, but phones are used for entertainment too, so it seems good for establishing notability.
• packtpub source has been used 20 times according to Wikipedia search. More articles look technical.
• Origo.hu (hungarian) source - Although Wikipedia is not reliable, Origo.hu (redirected) says, it "is a major Hungarian language news website founded in 1998..." Search shows 471 hits.
• DerStandard (german or austrian) source - Although Wikipedia is not reliable, Der_Standard says it is a major German language newspaper (print and online) in Austria. Wikipedia article search shows 490 hits.

I believe these, at least, demonstrate notability with reliable sources, based if nothing else, on many previous uses at Wikipedia. That's not always a guarantee, but combined with 3 sources having Wikipedia articles indicating decent reputations, I believe this should be sufficient. FYI, I have nothing to do with GrapheneOS (although I would give it a test run if I owned the right kind of phone). Could you please move this to an article? -- Yae4 (talk) 18:25, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I don't think this draft has clearly established notability yet. Some of the sources focus on Edward Snowden's endorsement, but the coverage is brief enough to be considered passing mentions (and not significant coverage of GrapheneOS). Many of the blog sources are borderline in terms of reliability; they could be classified as self-published or marginally reliable, and I'm not comfortable making the call myself. The reliable sources noticeboard could help judge these borderline sources. Note that there are quite a few high-profile RfCs on that noticeboard at the moment, so a discussion might not get as much attention as usual. — Newslinger talk 11:59, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

​​ Times of India source lists 6 things to do to make your phone "hack proof." One of the 6 (17%) is install GrapheneOS. Yes, it's based on Snowden recommendation, which is why it got attention, but it is not just passing mention. Packt Hub source is focused almost only on GrapheneOS and Micay, and pre-dates the Snowden news. To me it doesn't look like a blog. Origo Hu source is solely on GrapheneOS and Micay. It's news, not blog. Der Standard is news, not blog. Yes, prompted by Snowden recommendation, but it's the only phone ROM recommended. Then there's several blog-like geek news sources that also covered it. For ROMs not actively doing PR (it appears), that's about as good as it gets. I don't know if precedents matter on Wikipedia, but sourcing for this article seems better than Resurrection_Remix_OS, OmniROM, and Smartisan_OS. -- Yae4 (talk) 16:28, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Passing the notability test is as much about the quality of the sources as it is about the quantity. Significant coverage is not very well-defined in Wikipedia's guideline, but commenters in deletion discussions generally expect qualifying sources to be longer than the Origo article. Packt Hub is a blog that promotes Packt's main publishing business – the blog is a borderline source, and routine announcements like the page provided tend to be ignored in deletion discussions when it's not coming from a more highly regarded source.

In the Smartisan OS article, the cited Engadget (RSP entry) piece, "Smartisan OS unveiled in China, takes a fresh approach to Android UI design" provides a detailed overview of the software, and counts more toward the article's notability than any of the other sources mentioned so far. But, I agree that the sourcing of the articles you listed is not great. I've proposed deletion of the Resurrection Remix OS article, and tagged the others as needing more sources. — Newslinger talk 06:04, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

This makes 2 for 2 on unexpected results related to discussions on this draft... Not moved to article, and proposed deletion of another article... Oh well. -- Yae4 (talk) 19:03, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, Yae4, I didn't mean to discourage you. The honest truth is that many software-related articles in article space don't meet the notability requirements, and they're not very good examples for what would pass a review. (I think this is because casual editors who are technology-oriented tend to be more capable of using wikitext, but still might not be familiar with the notability guideline.) Also, Wikipedia's standards across the board have gradually increased over time, and older articles are likely to have been reviewed against lower standards than newer ones.

Since significant coverage is difficult to define, you might find it informative to participate in some discussions at Articles for deletion. The instructions at WP:AFDFORMAT, along with the notability guidelines, policy on what Wikipedia is not, list of reasons for deletion, and list of arguments to avoid can help you get started. In AfD discussions, editors review the article and its sources, then express an opinion on the action that should be taken on the article (most commonly: keep, delete, redirect, or merge). The deletion sorting list for software and FOSS article alerts can help narrow down discussions of interest, and there's also a bot-maintained list of all deletion discussions.

Many of these discussions refer to the general notability guideline, and some contain analysis of whether certain sources meet the significant coverage requirement. I hope this helps. — Newslinger talk 00:17, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

Any comments on new golem.de source?

To me it is a thorough review, but what seems to be a good source. -- Yae4 (talk) 18:54, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

​Nice find! "Ein gehärtetes Android ohne Google, bitte" from Golem.de is exactly the kind of source we're looking for to establish notability. Although I previously expressed some reservations with the other sources, the Golem.de review combined with the rest of the sources in the article should show that GrapheneOS is notable. I think this article would survive if nominated for deletion.

The Articles for creation review process is optional for editors without a conflict of interest, so you can publish this article by moving it to GrapheneOS whenever you're ready. Keep in mind that the 7-day timer for "Did you know" starts immediately after you publish, if you're interested in submitting a hook for GrapheneOS. — Newslinger talk 05:51, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Actually, before you move the article, I would remove the citations to the websites that clearly aren't usable:

• Gadgets Now - This is a republished version of The Times of India article that is already cited.
• https://www.osnews.com/story/129778/grapheneos-an-android-based-security-hardened-open-source-os/ – The content of this blog post is taken from this Liliputing article without attribution. I'm not linking to this because WP:COPYLINK forbids linking to copyright violations.
• TechHype – Appears to be a user-generated post from a social networking site in the form of Reddit and Digg.
• TuttoAndroid – No staff list. Also appears to be a summarized translation of this Liliputing article.
• ScoopSquare24 – The quality of the text is very low. I see obvious grammatical errors everywhere. Also, their team page is broken.
• https://bioreports.net/grapheneos/ – This page copies the GrapheneOS home page.

— Newslinger talk 06:30, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

​ Thanks! Deleted others as listed. It's new, just long enough by my count; not sure about the "hook" thing; within policy AFAIK; Also don't know about the QPQ thing. I would move it, except last time I tried, I ran into problems because of the re-direct, so I'd appreciate some help with that. -- Yae4 (talk) 15:38, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Great job, Yae4! The article is published at GrapheneOS now. I forgot about the redirect issue. When the target page is occupied by a redirect, you'll need to perform a page swap, which requires either a technical move request or the page mover permission. I was able to swap the pages for you. The article will undergo one last round of review by a new page patroller, but you'll most likely not have to do anything else.

For "Did you know", the quid pro quo requirement is waived for your first 5 DYK nominations. If you want to see GrapheneOS mentioned on the Main Page, DYK just needs a short, interesting fact about GrapheneOS that's supported by a reliable source. — Newslinger talk 23:22, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for all your help, Newslinger, and thanks for the star. Jumped through the hoops for the hook, and we'll see what happens with DYK. -- Yae4 (talk) 15:52, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Recent edit

I recently undid this edit, which removed List of custom Android distributions from and added CopperheadOS to the "See also" section. This is because:

• GrapheneOS is listed in List of custom Android distributions. The project states on its home page that "In the long term, it aims to move beyond a hardened fork of the Android Open Source Project". Reliable sources are still describing GrapheneOS as Android-based ("Android basierende"). Until there are substantial changes in GrapheneOS's software architecture, calling it an Android distribution is reasonable to me.
• We're not supposed to add links to the "See also" section that duplicate links in the article body. See MOS:NOTSEEALSO.

— Newslinger talk 00:45, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

It's Android-based but Android distribution seems misleading to me. According to the developer, it already makes changes deviating from what's required to be Android:

GrapheneOS is explicitly not Android, because it deliberately doesn't conform to the Compatibility Definition Document and Compatibility Test Suite requirements for considering an OS to be part of the Android family. It's entirely possible to make an OS with an entirely different kernel and software stack that's allowed to be referred to as Android as long as it is fully meets the compatibility and other requirements. Those are the rules for using the trademark. I make fair use of that trademark by referring to GrapheneOS as being almost entirely fully compatible with Android apps. It's not entirely compatible though since it deliberately makes restrictions for privacy/security that are not permitted by the CDD / CTS. [...] However, that doesn't mean I can refer to GrapheneOS as literally being Android since it's not a matter of copyright law / software licenses.

So they are not actually distributing Android but something else. Perhaps the article List of custom Android distributions should be renamed but I think this talk page is not the place to discuss this and I do not have a "reliable" source other than the Android documentation (https://source.android.com/compatibility/cdd).

We're not supposed to add links to the "See also" section that duplicate links in the article body.

Yes, I missed that link. 187.160.10.45 (talk) 11:04, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for responding. I see what you mean, since GrapheneOS is not able to describe itself as "Android" due to trademark restrictions. @Yae4: How would you prefer to resolve this? Do you think GrapheneOS should be removed from List of custom Android distributions, or would you rather request to move the List of custom Android distributions article to a more generic name like List of Android-based operating systems? — Newslinger talk 11:18, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Removing GrapheneOS from List of custom Android distributions doesn't make sense because the other entries do not meet the requirements to be called Android either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.160.10.45 (talk) 12:13, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

We're supposed to rely on the language used in reliable sources regardless of the preference of the trademark holder. For example, LineageOS is on the list, and it's described as an Android distribution by TechRepublic, ZDNet (RSP entry), Golem.de, and Heise, among others. But if a title like List of Android-based operating systems would be more accurate, then I suppose the list can be renamed. You may want to consider filing a requested move for List of custom Android distributions. If the list gets renamed, the "See also" link would be updated here. — Newslinger talk 12:35, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

@Newslinger: I'm OK with including the list of "custom Android distributions." The compatibility document seems to be primarily for hardware requirements for compatibility with Android operating system (including Google services), and we're talking about operating system (and default apps) software here. It says, for example, "Where this definition or the software tests described in section 10 is silent, ambiguous, or incomplete, it is the responsibility of the device implementer to ensure compatibility with existing implementations. For this reason, the Android Open Source Project is both the reference and preferred implementation of Android. Device implementers are STRONGLY RECOMMENDED to base their implementations to the greatest extent possible on the “upstream” source code available from the Android Open Source Project." Thus, for these purposes, if the operating system starts from AOSP, which GrapheneOS does as I understand, then calling it a "custom Android distribution" works for me, and it's what sources call it too. If Graphene becomes more significantly different, then it could move to a different list like Comparison_of_mobile_operating_systems, and be moved from Mobile_operating_system#Android. -- Yae4 (talk) 12:38, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

"One man show" versus team of developers, based on golem.de source

​​Quotes from golem.de source:

• "Micay and Graphene users repeatedly stress a lack of developers and maintainers."
• "So far GrapheneOS, like its predecessor Copperhead OS, has been developed almost entirely by him, says Micay."
• "A few developers have started to contribute to GrapheneOS."
• In concluding remarks: "We are also a bit worried about how few developers and maintainers are currently working on GrapheneOS - the project is currently more like a one-man show."

In balance, the article is saying it's a "one-man show" with a start of some other contributions. It does not support saying GrapheneOS has a team of developers. -- Yae4 (talk) 16:38, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

• "Micay and Graphene users repeatedly stress a lack of developers and maintainers." - does not indicate that there is a single developer, but rather an overall lack of developers / maintainers.
• "So far GrapheneOS, like its predecessor Copperhead OS, has been developed almost entirely by him, says Micay." - does not indicate that there is a single developer, but rather than the lead developer has done most but explicitly not all of the work. In fact, that sentence implies that there are other developers doing a subset of the work. Also, in this sentence, it's largely the historical work being talked about. Since the project has historically had a single developer (not anymore), of course the bulk of the work was done by a single developer. The other developers have not been around for the vast majority of the lifetime of the project. The amount of the project created by a developer does not reflect the current division of work between them, and there are explicitly other people working on the project including people the project refers to as officially being involved.
• "A few developers have started to contribute to GrapheneOS." - which is the source stating that other developers had started to contribute to the project at the time of the article being written. Therefore, it is clearly incorrect to state that there is a single developer.
• "We are also a bit worried about how few developers and maintainers are currently working on GrapheneOS" - which once again refers to there being a development team, with Daniel Micay doing the bulk of the work at that time. An uneven division of work does not justify claiming there is a single developer. Events have also occurred since then, such as Pixel 4 support being launched based on community support. The golem.de source is a high quality article providing a historical snapshot but is not up-to-date coverage of the most recent state of the project. It's usable to explain the state of the project at a particular point in time, but not the current state of it. At that time, it did have multiple developers that had come on board, and the project itself shows that those developers / others are still around.

"It does not support saying GrapheneOS has a team of developers." - strongly disagree. It supports stating that there is a development team led by Daniel Micay. It definitely does not support claiming that there are not other developers working on it as that's explicitly in contradiction with the sources. You could state that the OS is primarily developed by Daniel Micay with help from some other developers / contributors, but that's not going to fit well into the infobox. The previous infobox claiming that there was only a single developer conflicts with the sources. The project itself states that it has multiple developers too, which is verifiable due to the open source nature of it, and while those aren't secondary sources it is wrong to deliberately make an inaccurate article based on cherry-picking and misinterpreting from a source.

Even with the way that you've cherry-picked quotations from the source, it doesn't back up what you're saying, and reading the source with the full context presents a much different story.

If you're going to be reverting all of my work, can you please do separate reverts with specific reasons instead of rolling back my changes with a generic reason that does not apply to all of the changes you are rolling back.

Note: Signature copied and new section started below by Yae4 to separate topics...Pitchcurve (talk) 19:46, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

@Pitchcurve:

• When the article was created in July 2019, it said developer: Daniel Micay.
• When I brought the golem.de source to this article and to this Talk page and convinced Admin Newslinger it was time to the page from Draft to Article space, it said developer: Daniel Micay.
• When I and others helped get the article on the front page of Wikipedia, in January 2020, after extensive review, it said developer: Daniel Micay.
• Have you brought a new source? No. The same golem.de source should NOT now be interpreted to say developer: GrapheneOS development team led by Daniel Micay The source has not changed. You just want this article to say something different.
• Go ahead and show us some convincing links from github, or better, new reliable secondary sources, supporting "development team led by Daniel Micay."
• In general, please start bringing specific sources and quotes to support your positions. That would be much more convincing than TL;DR arguments.

-- Yae4 (talk) 21:23, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

New section on how a quotation is NOT backed up by a source, and more

Can you please explain how "The main developer, Daniel Micay, was the creator and lead developer of CopperheadOS until he left the company and continued the open source project as GrapheneOS." is not backed up by the golem.de reference and the others. And what about "After the schism between the two founders of Copperhead, Micay renamed the open source project to the Android Hardening project and then later to GrapheneOS to reflect the revived state of the project"? Why are you rolling back both of these sentences in the same change as the others? Also, where's your source for 64-bit ARM being the only supported architecture? The https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentoo_Linux article does not claim that 0 architectures are supported just because they are only supported for builds from source. Also, looking across the articles for Linux distributions, this information is obtained from the website / documentation for the distribution rather than expecting all the trivia to be available in up-to-date secondary sources. Listing out the architectures the project says it supports really shouldn't be controversial. Pitchcurve (talk) 19:46, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

@Pitchcurve: I can't prove a negative. Can you present quotes from the sources supporting your interpretations? Part of the problem is you continue to re-use ONE source without properly "re-using" the source for the reference list. This makes it more confusing to see how much emphasis (aka weight) is being put on individual sources. If you wouldn't make so many unsupported changes, then I wouldn't revert them all. Most of your changes to CopperheadOS and GrapheneOS are not consistent with WP:NPOV or the sources, in my opinion. Re: X86_64 etc., When I went to verify the primary source, I found only a mention that it was tested, not available for download or using. So it looks like advertising something not really available. In general, a lot of these kind of articles list far too many non-encyclopedic details, but it is often tolerated in these topics almost nobody cares about or reads. -- Yae4 (talk) 21:23, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

I'd be happy to remove the architecture field, but if it is included, it should be accurate. There is no basis for claiming that only arm64 is supported. It is not based on a source. It should be removed or left as the corrected version. Either way, that is solution to the problem of inaccurate information. It's you that wants to claim that it only supports arm64 so where is your source? It conflicts with the website (which is the only place where architecture support appears to be discussed) and isn't accurate.

You're repeatedly making unsupported changes based on your incorrect interpretations and assumptions. You keep accusing others of doing what you are doing which is writing content not matching the sources. Pitchcurve (talk) 22:11, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Lack of source for claiming only (64-bit) ARM support

This is not discussed in the secondary sources. I've redone it and used their site as the source for the time being, which matches what is done for articles like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentoo_Linux.

GrapheneOS itself refers to support for 32/64-bit ARM, 32/64-bit x86 and 32/64-bit MIPS at a source level. Official builds are only made available for a selection of devices they deem to meet their standards and have the resources to support. There are no official generic 64-bit ARM builds but rather that is only supported at a source level. The only official builds are for a selection of Pixel phones at the moment. It's not accurate to suggest that it has official builds targeting 64-bit ARM generically, when in fact 64-bit ARM has the same level of support as x86_64 including official Vanadium releases (multiple secondary sources cover Auditor and Vanadium so the article should probably mention those). 32-bit ARM, 32-bit x86 and 32/64-bit MIPS are supported at a lower tier, but are supported nonetheless.

Where is a source for it only supported 64-bit ARM to counter what their own site says about the project? In a case where a secondary source is not available, I do not think coming up with the information out of thin air rather than referencing the official documentation is appropriate. Most Wikipedia articles retrieve this assortment of trivia for the infobox (supported architectures, most recent release, etc.) from the project's own documentation / announcements.

The sources do not differentiate arm64 as having special support, other than Vanadium only having official builds for x86_64 / arm64. Official builds being available for a selection of devices that are arm64 devices does not imply that arm64 in general has special support. That is not stated by any available source, and is an inference being made here that's not correct. The reason I changed it from saying "ARM" to "64-bit ARM" is because that made even less sense. At least there's some basis for arm64 being special compared to the others i.e. the fact that the official builds are for devices that are arm64 - but generic arm64 releases are in the same state as x86_64.

Pitchcurve (talk) 20:06, 29 August 2020 (UTC)