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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by HLHJ (talk | contribs) at 23:59, 14 July 2021 (→Requested move 8 July 2021: one last attempt at discussing terms). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Yanks in kilts

The reader here may be amused or irritated to read the following assertion, at Talk:Black tie

The "kilt" can be worn by anyone with scottish heritage (including by marrage), or from a location with a tartan (Canada and each province has a tartan that would be appropriate to wear). Many organizations also have a tartan (wearing that as well is acceptable). The point is to wear an appropriate tartan. Wearing the tartan is accepting the leadership of that "clan." A mute point today. There are many approriate tartans to wear. A person form Chile would wear the Cochrane tartan, to recognize the great contribution of the Admiral Cochrane to that country. Of course, if you have ever worn a kilt, the Government tartan is always appropriate. see link www.electricscotland.com/webclans/weartart.htm --User:Glenlarson

This is part of a "dscussion" at Talk:Black tie Here it is in whole, with last response.

The link to electricscotland.com seems to be broken. Has the page moved?  — AnnaKucsma   (Talk to me!) 17:41, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Highland regalia"

"Kilts have become normal wear for formal occasions, for example being hired for weddings in much the same way as top hat and tails are in England or tuxedos across the pond, and can be worn by anyone regardless of nationality or descent. " A recipe for fools. One could with equal truth say that any coat-of-arms can be selected and painted on the doors of one's SUV, "by anyone regardless of nationality or descent." In such circles, it is thought quite witty when someone refers to the North Atlantic as "the pond". --Wetman 19:17, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Reply

Now, coat-of-arms are "issued" by varrious authorities, usually governmental in nature, but also from some other "real" authorities, like varrious royal houses, and religious authorities. They can be obtained by those that are acceptable, in some conditions, like military officers and accidemic educated.

The "kilt" can be worn by anyone with scottish heritage (including by marrage), or from a location with a tartan (Canada and each province has a tartan that would be appropriate to wear). Many organizations also have a tartan (wearing that as well is acceptable). The point is to wear an appropriate tartan. Wearing the tartan is accepting the leadership of that "clan." A mute point today. There are many approriate tartans to wear. A person form Chile would wear the Cochrane tartan, to recognize the great contribution of the Admiral Cochrane to that country. Of course, if you have ever worn a kilt, the Government tartan is always appropriate. see link www.electricscotland.com/webclans/weartart.htm --User:Glenlarson

"A person from Chile would wear the Cochrane tartan, to recognize the great contribution of Admiral Cochrane to that country." Well, I live where Lorna Doone cookies are baked... But, which tartan would be appropriate if you were, say, from Vladivostok and stationed in Antarctica, one wonders... A "mute point" indeed! Similar fantasies encourage truly naive Americans to send away for "their" family crest-- say Smith-- and display it with pride to the gawping locals! The text remains in the article, what one calls "only a snare for geese."
—"I think we're all bozos on this bus." -Firesign Theater. --Wetman 01:47, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)--Wetman 01:47, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The original text was copied form the article titled kilt. Many may be upset at others wearing the kilt; however, Scottish culture has been spread around the world, including India and Pakistan, or any "British" Caribbean island, which have pipe bands. Few would think them of Scottish extraction, but they may be, and would have "right" to a kilt, regardless. They may even have a Scottish name!
One point of vies is but that, one. The talk page provides a forum for review, and yes many naive people do get "snared" ( see also Talk:Tartan). Don't know it is assumed I am a "Yank" but I do have more Scot blood than any other, all be it low land, but not the "name."
The reference for the assertion was provided. Do they live near?
Now white tie, was first what a Swed would wear to a wedding! --User:Glenlarson
Speaking as a Scot, it is my sincere opinion that the kilt, like any other item of clothing, can be worn by anyone. It's nice to wear the "right" tartan if such a thing exists for your ancestry, but since the whole concept of clan tartan was made up after the clan system had largely collapsed, I don't think it's worth getting worked up about. Daibhid C 10:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Daihbhid, the wearing of kilts and tartan has spread far beyond Scotland, I wore one at my wedding as an alternative to the boring old suit. I'm an Englishman who has lived in Ireland for the last decade. Based on my ancestry, place of work and place of residence I can identify thirteen different tartans that I can wear, all but one of them a late 20th century design. There is a new tradition now and I like it. EddieLu 11:47, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cornish and Welsh Tartan kilts

Just added a few brief words and links about the modern Cornish and Welsh Tartan Kilt phenomena. Bretagne 44 1/3/05

Tartan Colours

The colours used in a tartan's sett do have certain meanings, as does the amount of one colour in relation to other colours. I'm not very sure about many of them and would appreciate a list of the colours and the usual meaning, so as to be better able to read classic Clan settsn (and also weigh the claims made by the many "fictive" and fashion setts, chuckle chuckle... ;=} ).

I know there is one for landownership (brown or green?), one for coastal or Islay clans (blue, IIRC), yellow or gold--wealthy clan (e.g. Buchanan), black--clan with much ties to the clergy, there is one for livestock-wealth (was it green for the pasture or read for the meat?), military connections (red?)... What else are there, and could an authority on the topic pls. insert them in the Tartan article?

Thanks,

DJ Vollkasko
Temporary Newton Library
http://www.stillnewt.org/library
(User:212.149.48.43 2006-02-08 11:08:03)

Design principles

I'd love to see some info about tartan design principles, if any exist. If there is a registry, how similar is too similar? What motifs appear in related tartans? Are there tartans that combine motifs from two or more others? In other words, is there anything in tartanry that corresponds to the symbolic language of heraldry? —Tamfang 05:46, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

English tartan

It says that tartan is called 'check' in the north of England. It might be called check by some, but it's also called Tartan! The national dress of Northumbria is the Northumbrian tartan, not 'check'. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 121.72.66.143 (talk) 08:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC).[reply]

I've never heard it called a check by anyone in Northumberland. They call it a tartan. The only people I've heard call it a check are Scots - usually a derogatory reference, e.g. "Of course it's not a really a tartan, it's a check!" Admitedly it is a check - but it's properly called a tartan! Anjouli 12:56, 29 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm concerned about the section which says that tartan was invented by an Englishman. The oldest tartan-style fabric yet found dates to some three thousand years ago, which well predates England or Englishmen. Now, it's true that our modern form of the kilt was invented by an Englishman, but tartan? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.114.39.175 (talk) 19:04, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What you say about the kilt is out of date actually. The small kilt, which is basically the bottom half of the belted plaid or 'great kilt' was already in evidence just before 'englishman' Rawlinson. He did promote it though, even if he didnt actually invent it - see kilt section for more details. As for 'tartan' - check designs can be found in just about all cultures, so it wasnt 'invented' by anyone, however it reached its fullest development in Scotland.

--80.177.198.45 (talk) 17:32, 6 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Take it from this Northumbrian; folk here in rural Northumbria call it both "check" and "tartan", with "check" being more common (along with "drab" and "plaid"). "Check" is just another word for the pattern. Nothing derogatory about it. Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 05:08, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Irish Clans

The line "The Irish people had clans too, except each clan mostly lived within its own community, also known as a county. So far, there are 32 counties in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland".

True there are 32 counties in the island of Ireland but they are not connected in any way to the Irish clans. The county system was imposed on Ireland by the English administration and based on the English county system, it's not native to Ireland in any way. It still exists of course and to the people that live in them there is firece loyalty, I live in County Louth.

Before the gradual conquest Ireland was made up of kingdoms e.g. Oriel, Meath, Connacht etc with an over-all High King.

EddieLu 16:14, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I had enough and since no one countered my notes above I removed the section on Irish Clans, as it was basically made up.

The concept of Irish Clans is a relatively recent one, and indeed the Irish Govt. has recently withdrawn the courtesy recognition it used to give to Chiefs of the Name following the McCarthy Mor fiasco.

As for Irish clan tartans again these are very recent and have no basis in tradition and are not connected to the history of tartan.

The only clan tartan recognised by the Chief Herald of Ireland is that of Clan Cian.

The county system in Ireland is a local government administrative one and not connected to the old Gaelic system. EddieLu 12:33, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

'Irish County' tartans are modern and tartan as we know it today in Ireland does not have a long history, the 1600s 'Ulster tartan' is probably from a Scots settler

--80.177.198.45 (talk) 14:16, 6 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Citation/POV

I was very tempted to simply remove the section but would rather give time for faults to be fixed:

Held up by widespread perception that the bill's initial drafting was unduly influenced by a self-interested minority industry faction, it is hoped that new law may yet emerge formalising tartan's status for the good of all. The reasons for needing a formal registry are severalfold: there are no clear definitions of colours, there is no standard definition of the sett, i.e., geometry, or spacing of the tartan's patterns. This lack of definitions has led to dumping of miscolored and malshaped tartans in the North American markets.

Widespread? says who?. Hoped by who? Reasons only given for the registry none against? Why should it matter what floods the American market. The para is simply editor pov and not impartial. It needs citation or major rewording. Alci12 17:25, 29 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tartan vs. plaid

What's the difference? 71.234.109.192 (talk) 08:19, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good question. I have noted a tendency to label old tartan "plaid" if it is found outside Scotland. see the Annunciation angel in "plaid" (painted 1333) at the Uffizi gallery Florence [Angel in "plaid" cloak]. If this picture was painted or located in Scotland, we would without hesitation refer to the cloak as tartan. Personally, being rather fond of the painting, I tend to refer to the angel as dressed in tartan. So what if it's in Italy, angels have wings. Czar Brodie (talk) 00:51, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Tartan is plaid, but not vice versa? Jbay54321 (talk) 14:40, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I just watched a segment on CBS News Sunday Morning (originally aired 11/25/2007; re-ran 9/7/2008) entitled "Going Mad Over Plaid". In the article, Doria De La Chapelle, co-author of a book "Tartan: Romancing the Plaid" by Jeffrey Banks, Doria De La Chapelle, and Rose Marie Bravo] states, "A tartan plaid, first of all, is Scottish, as opposed to American or English. It's Scottish." The article concluded "In other words: all tartan is plaid, but not all plaid is tartan." I was never aware of such a distinction. It further explained that a tartan pattern has to be made of "perfect squares", whereas a "plaid" can have "stripes".
I was looking forward to comments on the article till I noted that comments expire 72 hours after the article airs.
Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than I someone could comment here on this rather strict definition of "tartan".—Preceding unsigned comment added by Jbay54321 (talk • contribs) 7 September 2008
I just added a bit to the article about the term plaid. How i understand it, in Scotland plaid originally meant the garment known as the belted plaid worn before the modern kilt came into use. Because highland plaids, and later manufactured kilts, tended to be made up of tartan consisting of many colours, the terms plaid and tartan became confused and combined over the years, So before the confusion, plaid meant a type of garment/blanket, which could be made up of tartan; tartan was woven cloth on which patterns could be incorporated.
I just got Tartan: Romancing the Plaid out of the library, its one big beautiful book with gorgeous pics on every page :p.--Celtus (talk) 05:51, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Photo of Loom

I have uploaded a photo to commons of a Tartan loom [1], which might be useful on this article in the future, but doesn't currently seem relevant since there is little here about the style of weave used in tartans. I couldn't write such a section myself, but given the different fabric weights and styles of use I'm sure there's something interesting to be said... Karora 12:56, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Very nice. Quite relevant, and pretty interesting.--Celtus (talk) 10:36, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tartan etiquette

This is part of the article, the last part of the 'clan tartans' section. I don't think it belongs there though. I wonder if the article could have a short 'tartan etiquette' section. That is what this paragraph appears to be. We would need some references though. What does anyone think?

Interestingly, a few tartans are now described as "general", i.e. acceptable for all to wear. The Black Watch tartan (see below) is the most well-known of these. Furthermore, the "Stewart Hunting Tartan" is also considered a general tartan by many; originally, as the name implies, a Stewart tartan, its use in several Highland regiments led to this broadening of its application. It remains, however, the most popular tartan in use by Stewart clan members. Finally, a few words should be said about the best known tartan of all: the famous Royal Stewart. Originally a variation on the Stewart of Galloway clan tartan, and as such a bona fide Stewart tartan, it was favoured by the Royal Family, wherefore many people consider it a Royal tartan. For this reason, it became a much sought-after tartan with the Highland regiments; and this, again, led to its present-day popularity, where it functions, for all practical purposes, as the Scottish Tartan, being used with everything from shortbread boxes to mugs and miniskirts. Queen Anne, foreseeing this development, remedied it once and for all by affirming that the British sovereign was to be considered clan chief of all Britons[citation needed] – English, Scots, Welsh and Irish – and that every (loyal) British subject therefore had the right to display her/his allegiance to the clan chief by wearing the clan tartan of the United Kingdom[citation needed]: the Royal Stewart.

--Celtus (talk) 05:05, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tartan vs plaid

Why is this article not called Plaid? I can tell you that no one in North America says "tartan." Explain that in Scotland "a plaid is a tartan cloth slung over the shoulder or a blanket." But don't call the article "tartan" because of that. Macarion (talk) 01:09, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not a North American encyclopedia - it's a global one, see WP:WORLDVIEW. As such any local dialect of English can be used, but there are fairly strict rules about what dialect to use when the subject has a particularly close association with a particular country - see WP:ENGVAR. In this case, the article obviously has a close association with Scotland and so its title and contents should be in British English (and arguably Scottish English, but that's another matter...). Hence it's called "tartan". However if you go to the Plaid article you will get a link here as one of the options. Usually it works the other way - us non-Americans have to put up with North American usage for all sorts of articles on Wikipedia, so it's only fair to have a bit of give and take. Le Deluge (talk) 22:55, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I totally agree with Deluge that since the tartan is culturally associated with Scotland, this article should use the word tartan and not plaid. As much as I find it shocking that my coworker here in California does not know what a tartan is, still, the world does not revolve around American English or Wikipedia articles purely written in American English. Another word for small is wee and you can say grand for good. This is an opinion of someone who lived both in Scotland and U.S.A.

ICE77 (talk) 07:40, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Diaspora

The traditional dress of inhabitants of Nazare (Nazareth) in Portugal is a southern European interpretation of Tartan/Plaid. Legend has it this was from when the Scots landed there to help the Spanish and Portuguese defeat Napolean's army. The locals were so happy to see them or so taken with their garments that they fashioned lighter, more colorful versions. The Scots have been stationed so far and wide that this can't be the only instance of locals adopting Tartan as their own. —Preceding unsigned comment added by N.anderthal (talk • contribs) 22:29, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fashion

A picture was added to the fashion section of the article; more specifically, the paragraph on "hipster". It was removed without explanation but complements the section well. Is there a reason that I'm missing? The picture in question: File:Plaidpattern.png —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ehhhhhhnnnnnn (talk • contribs) 04:30, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually there was an explanation in the edit summary: the illustration was excessive. For further explanation, it was a low quality photograph of tangential relevance to the article. Snapshots added by an uploader who edits almost nothing else usually turn out to be efforts by people to shoehorn their own self-portraits into articles. If this surmise was in error, apologies. But it still wasn't very necessary or relevant. Durova333 04:44, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hallstatt culture

According to the textile historian E. J. W. Barber, the Hallstatt culture, which is linked with ancient Celtic populations and flourished between 400 BC to 100 BC, produced tartan-like textiles. Some of them were recently discovered, remarkably preserved in Salzburg, Austria.

I'd like to point out that the culture that flourished in the area between 400 BC to 100 BC is not called Hallstatt culture, but La Tène culture. I don't have the referenced book, so I cannot check if the mistake was already in the original (in which case the question arises which information is correct, the date or the culture), or if in the book, perhaps only a date or the name of the culture is given and the other information was added by the editor, and therefore I don't know what to correct. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 00:26, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hipsters and tartans

The section under fashion about hipsters contains NO verified references, the one reference given does not mention tartan or plaid once, and is of dubious merit in any case. The paragraphs reads like original research. It might be better to be bold and delete the whole section until some reference can be found. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.240.207.146 (talk) 23:56, 16 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Mummies of Xinjiang

Where is the article's mention and description of the Tartans of the mummies of Xinjiang, China?75.21.100.52 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 07:24, 13 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know when the Tarim mummies were added to the article but they are mentioned. I also added Xinjiang to be more specific geographically.
ICE77 (talk) 07:44, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Comments

Being a fan of Scotland and tartans, I read this article with much interest. I learned several things but I think the article can be improved and expanded. I made several improvements, primarily to the layout and the structure. I have a few comments.

1. The introduction briefly mentioned two of the most famous tartans, then it mentioned them again later. I consolidated the information in a single place and created a section for two of the most popular tartans. I also added two images.

2. The article is not clear about dress and hunting tartans. It provides an explanation for the dress tartan but it doesn't really say anything about the hunting tartan (explaining them as a "Victorian conception" is insufficient). My understanding is that hunting tartans are for the outdoors and that there is no correlation to hunting.

3. This article should have a dedicated section that lists adjectives that describe tartans such as ancient, muted, modern, dress, hunting, mourning and universal.

4. The tartan with the caption ""Ye principal clovris of ye clanne Stewart" which appeared in the Sobieski Stuarts's forgery Vestiarium Scoticum of 1842" should be properly labeled a "Clan Stewart/Stuart tartan" instead (possibly with the additional label of "dress" since the typical red of the standard "Clan Stewart/Stuart tartan" is replaced by white).

5. I believe the sentence "Both organisations are registered Scottish charities and record new tartans (free in the case of STS and for a fee in the case of STWR) on request." should really say STA rather than STS. It seems logical to me.

6. It would be nice to load an image of the Falkirk tartan in the origins section and an image of the Balmoral tartan in the etiquette section.

7. I am not completely sure whether the Black Watch is truly also called also Universal or that specific tartan happens to be a universal tartan. The big or small u make a difference in this context.

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Proposed inclusion criteria for List of tartans

FYI
 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see Talk:List of tartans#Inclusion criteria, a proposal for a three-point list of inclusion criteria. There are at least 7000 tartans and we cannot account for them all in a single article.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  20:41, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Intro

I see someone has reverted my change adding ‘plaid’ as a US term for tartan (not an incorrect term as the article claims). The source for this is Merriam Webster dictionary [[2]].

Also someone has reverted my change saying that tartan is a word for the pattern itself (on any material eg paper) as well as a patterned cloth. Any dictionary will confirm this.

Please don’t revert such changes. Ben Finn (talk) 21:36, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

PS the article itself already states the latter point later on.Ben Finn (talk) 21:45, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed new section on government tartans

Various of the Wikipedia articles on Scottish Regiments (e.g. the article on the current Royal Regiment of Scotland) refer to Black Watch tartan, or to Government no 1, or to Government no 1A, but they are sometimes ambiguous as to whether they really mean 1 or 1A or what the difference is. I think it would help to explain this in one place, which the various articles on individual regiments could refer to. I propose adding a subsection under "Other Tartans" on this pages called "Government Tartans" and listing there either just 1 and 1A, explaining the origins and difference, or possibly listing all the other Government Tartans that are included in what I believe is the official specification, UK/SC/6335. Any better suggestions or objections?Johnstoo (talk) 16:22, 5 April 2021 (UTC) I decided that the best place for this list was in the "List of tartans" page so have added a starter version there.Johnstoo (talk) 12:17, 13 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Globalizing rename

Requested move 8 July 2021

Tartan → Scottish and Irish tartan – Please place your rationale for the proposed move here. HLHJ (talk) 03:04, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Either we need to rename this article to something culture-specific like "Scottish and Irish tartan", or we need to include all the other cultures that use tartan/plaid/patterns made by varying the colour of both warp and weft. There's traditional plaid/tartan cloth in Japan, in India, in various parts of Africa, etc.. I'd suggest a rename. This article deals primarily with Scotland (and a bit of Ireland); the short description even ignores Ireland. The weaving technique is hardly restricted to these places. We need an article somewhere on these woven patterns generally; this article does not represent a worldwide view of the subject, which is fine but it should be named accordingly. Suggestions for other names for a general article are welcome.

  • Folk dancers in Aizawl, Mizoram
    Folk dancers in Aizawl, Mizoram
  • Sari
    Sari
  • Voting queue in dun tartan (hard to see some of the patterns in small size).
    Voting queue in dun tartan (hard to see some of the patterns in small size).
  • Tartan shirts lungis, saris, etc.. Commons:Category:Voting lines in India contains photos most of which seem to show some tartan cloth.
    Tartan shirts lungis, saris, etc.. Commons:Category:Voting lines in India contains photos most of which seem to show some tartan cloth.
  • Children in Ghana race against the wind
    Children in Ghana race against the wind
  • Mexico
    Mexico
  • Japanese print, c. 1780-1790
    Japanese print, c. 1780-1790

I could go on. See Wiktionary:格子 for Japanese and Chinese terms for plaid. HLHJ (talk) 03:04, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No. "Tartan" is culture-specific, not a term for checked cloth patterns in general. Mutt Lunker (talk) 09:53, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No, for the same reason as above. Tartan is specific to a culture; Scottish heritage is also celebrated outside Scotland in Tartan Day, and followers of the Scotland national sports team are known as the Tartan Army. Gabriella MNT (talk) 11:39, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, so what do we call cloth non-Scottish-tradition cloth patterned by varying the colour of both warp and weft? I don't care what we call these articles, and I'm fine with having an article on Scottish tartan, I just also want a place to put information of such woven patterns in general, in all cultures. Sure, Scottish-tradition tartans are used outside Scotland. It seems inappropriate to shove information about kimono patterns into this article, though, or even gingham plaid. There is an article called Plaid (pattern), but it redirects here.
On English usage, "checked cloth" to me means cloth printed like a checkerboard, which is not the same as a woven pattern (Check (pattern) agrees with me on this, but also has information on Scottish tartan and keffiyeh). My OED gives both the Scotland-specific and general cloth-pattern definitions for each of "tartan" and "plaid", distinguishing them only by saying that plaid is twill-woven (I think American usage is just "plaid", regardless or whether tabby weave or twill). The link plaid is a disambig including things not necessarily Scottish, like plaid shirts.
Mutt Lunker, Gabriella MNT, do you have suggestions for where information on non-Scottish-tradition cloth patterned by varying the colour of both warp and weft should go, and what the article it goes in should be named? I want somewhere to put information on the weaving technique and how it's used around the world. HLHJ (talk) 13:32, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't. That it is hard to define the remit of your subject possibly indicates it isn't particularly a thing.
In Scotland, a plaid is specifically the item of clothing, which is usually but is not always tartan (e.g. can be Hodden grey, per this example), so mentioning "plaid" in your article would be an unnecessarily ambiguous choice and best avoided. Mutt Lunker (talk) 14:04, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. "Tartan" is not a synonym for "any plaid clothing". I'm not even sure if the topic nominator seems to want to exist at "base" Tartan is really a thing - List of clothing with plaid patterns perhaps? That might stray into breaking list guidelines of picking a random thing to list by, but I'd recommend making that article first, and then if-and-only-if usage can be found that some reliable source uses "Tartan" to refer to plaid saris or the like, that a hatnote be added to the current "Tartan" article. SnowFire (talk) 14:18, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. If this article is too Scottish/Irish focused then a new subsection could be added/the lead rewritten slightly to allow for tartan in other cultures to be added. It needs expansion and a rewrite perhaps, but not a new article/name. LordHarris (talk) 16:09, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. "Tartan" is specifically a Scottish/Irish cultural thing, not a generic term for striped or plaid clothing. JIP | Talk 16:11, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Etymological detail: Originally, "plaid" was a word borrowed from the Gaelic, and referred to a type of blanket or garment (of any colour or pattern), and "tartan" was an English word (borrowed from the French) for tartan-pattern cloth. If you are making cloth by hand, striped and tartan patterns are a way to decorate cloth with little extra labour, so peasants around the world wore it, and rich people tended to shun it (see, for instance, Madras (cloth)). In the late 1600s and 1700s, England broke out of the Malthusian trap; from living on subsistence farming, it transitioned to an industrialized economy, with unprecedented wealth per capita.[3] This was largely driven by the automation of spinning and weaving, making England able to produce cloth very cheaply, and export it for great profit. So English people were on average richer and could also buy cloth much more cheaply.

Scotland, not so much. Scotland was still poor. English visitors at the time noted that people still spun by hand, wove with hand looms, and ground their grain with hand querns. They also wore cheap wool twill plaids, in striped and tartan patterns; the poorer people owned only a long shirt and a plaid, which served as a garment by day and a blanket at night. There were changeable regional fashions in patterns. The English did use striped and tartan cloth, but nowhere near as much, and often for things like mattress covers, where no-one would notice if it looked cheap. Tartan-pattern cloth became associated with Scots in both England and Scotland.

Then in the mid-1700s came the Highland Clearances, among other things. Scots were upset. There was political unrest and Jacobitism, which became associated with Scottish dress. In the Dress Act 1746, clothes that were considered typically Scottish were banned, including multicoloured plaids (the garments) and tartan-pattern cloth in most contexts. If you go to the article and read the text of the ban, you'll see that "plaid" is used for the garment, and "tartan" for a pattern. It was repealed in 1782, and in Victorian times tartans were systematized, given heraldic significance (largely by a couple of Jacobite pretenders) and became all the rage, especially after being adopted by the royal family. If I were making this up I'd make it more plausible.

Later, Americans came to use "plaid" as a synonym of "tartan", using both words to refer to both the pattern type and the Scots garments (this pattern-describing usage of "plaid" existed by the late 1930s [4]). Some Brits now do the same.

So it isn't hard to define the subject; the English vocabulary is just a bit awkwardly ambiguous (we have lots of articles on subjects with ambiguous English names). If I were describing, for instance, the mask-adjusting picture above, I'd say the child is wearing a tartan shirt and shorts (if speaking to a Brit), or a plaid shirt and shorts (if speaking to an American). I'd think it would be obvious from the context which sense of "tartan" or "plaid" I was using. If "List of clothing with plaid patterns" is a reasonable category, and we could call the garment in the image above a "plaid sari", than "plaid patterns" must be a thing that exists. I tend to agree with Mutt Lunker that "tartan patterns" would be less ambiguous, but obviously SnowFire would disagree. I suspect this is a transatlantic dialect disagreement. That's why I want input.

If this article is too Scottish/Irish focused then a new subsection could be added/the lead rewritten slightly to allow for tartan in other cultures to be added.
— LordHarris

The tartan article, which is already quite long, is almost entirely about Scotland, as the short description says. I think a rescope would make more sense.

"Tartan" is specifically a Scottish/Irish cultural thing, not a generic term for striped or plaid clothing.
— User:JIP

Unfortunately, it is both, as is "plaid". This can be independently verified with an etymological dictionary (including Wiktionary: Wiktionary:plaid#Noun, Wiktionary:tartan#Noun). HLHJ (talk) 18:32, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've only skimmed through the above as the greater part seems to have little pertinence to the subject of cloth patterns and much is factually inaccurate. I'd like to note that the attribution to me of the advocacy of the term "tartan patterns" for such an article, or that it is less ambiguous, is without basis. I'm not sure you should be stating SnowFire's view for them either. Mutt Lunker (talk) 19:00, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry to have misrepresented you, Mutt Lunker. Since you said:

In Scotland, a plaid is specifically the item of clothing, which is usually but is not always tartan (e.g. can be Hodden grey, per this example), so mentioning "plaid" in your article would be an unnecessarily ambiguous choice and best avoided.

I thought you were saying that "tartan" was less ambiguous than "plaid" for the cloth pattern, which I thought would logically imply that "tartan patterns" would be less ambiguous than "plaid patterns". As I think you said, patterns in plaids (garments) include but are not restricted to tartan. Clarification welcome. A quarter of an hour before your post, Snowfire did not object to my characterization of Snowfire's views (below), so at least I did a bit better there.
I'd appreciate knowing what portions of what I wrote are factually inaccurate. HLHJ (talk) 01:17, 9 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Just confirming that I'm an American as far as usages here. I think this proposal might be a case of cart-before-the-horse. If you think you can write a good article or list on plaid patterns / tartan patterns / "usage of striped patterns in clothing in general" from a global perspective, go for it (in Draft or User space if need be)! It very well might be worth a mention on Tartan (disambiguation) and in this article if created. But even if that article is created, I'd still be skeptical about moving this article - as the 1986 reference in the lede notes, "The words tartan and plaid have come to be used synonymously, particularly in North America. This usage is incorrect when referring to Scottish tartan." In other words, "tartan" has priority when referring to Scottish & Gaelic tartans and the culture associated with them. But we definitely shouldn't even consider moving it until the "pattern in general" article is created, else it be (discouraged) preemptive disambiguation. SnowFire (talk) 18:45, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, SnowFire. I'd be happy to make such an article. I do think that "tartan" is better for referring to the Scottish-tradition heraldic patterns. Obviously the preferred word used to describe, say, Madras (cloth) varies geographically. Maybe I should call it "double stripe", like "double ikat", just to sidestep the whole tomahto/tomayto (there's plahd/played for "plaid", too; I think "played" is the pronunciation more common in Scotland). And insert an etymology section. But I think I should probably let this discussion end first. HLHJ (talk) 01:17, 9 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • oppose as has been stated by other editors 'tartan' isn't a generic term for checked cloth it is specifically a cultural thing. This is backed up by the wiktionary links nom posted btw—blindlynx (talk) 14:33, 9 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • I do think those Wiktionary links (Wiktionary:plaid#Noun, Wiktionary:tartan#Noun) have both senses. See sense 2 of tartan, sense 3 of plaid, and the adjective senses of both, which would apply to "tartan kimono". But it seems a number of editors use "checked" or "checkered" in a sense different from me calling this a chequered kimono. Could any future responses please go beyond disagreeing with my usage and discuss what terms they would use for different types of cloth pattern? How would you describe the garments in the images? HLHJ (talk) 03:30, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion is about the issue you raised, the requested move. Don't complain if people come here to address the matter you raised. Your proposal having been roundly rejected, if you want people to engage in a discussion about something else, start a new discussion. As your new issue is more general and not about tartan specifically, this may not be the place discuss it; perhaps Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Textile Arts? Mutt Lunker (talk) 09:24, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This isn't a discussion of those cloths—it's a discussion of tartans—why are you asking us to go off topic?—blindlynx (talk) 13:37, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Please, if you think I'm wrong, say why, or I'm unlikely to learn better
I don't think I've made myself clear. When I said "different types of cloth pattern", I meant tartan patterns, and possibly checkered patterns if someone feels they are not the same. I should have been less ambiguous. This is a discussion of the title of the article called "Tartan"; discussing the meanings of the word "tartan", one of which, I contend, is a pattern of cloth, seems relevant. If "tartan" does not mean this pattern of cloth, asking what term does describe the cloth seems reasonable, especially when there are dialect differences here, which i think is why we are arguing. I know you have both said that "tartan" is not a term used for cloth with warp and weft stripes, but you haven't said why (or why you think I'm factually incorrect). Blindlynx said that their opinion was supported by Wiktionary, and I've explained why this does not seem to me to be the case. I'll now additionally cite Webster, since he's out of copyright and American:

Checker Check"er (?), v.t. [imp. & p.p. Checkered (?); p. pr. & vb. n. Checkering.] [From OF. eschequier a chessboard, F. \'82chiquier. See Check, n., and cf. 3d Checker.]

1. To mark with small squares like a checkerboard, as by crossing stripes of different colors.
2. To variegate or diversify with different qualities, color, scenes, or events; esp., to subject to frequent alternations of prosterity and adversity.

Our minds are, as it were, checkered with truth and falsehood. Addison.

...

Tartan (?), n. [F. tiretane, linsey-woolsey, akin to Sp. tiritaña, a sort of thin silk; cf. Sp. tiritar, to shiver or shake with cold.]

Woolen cloth, checkered or crossbarred with narrow bands of various colors, much worn in the Highlands of Scotland; hence, any pattern of tartan; also, other material of a similar pattern.

...

Plaid (?), n. [Gael. plaide a blanket or plaid, contr. fr. peallaid a sheepskin, fr. peall a skin or hide. CF. Pillion.]

1. A rectangular garment or piece of cloth, usually made of the checkered material called tartan, but sometimes of plain gray, or gray with black stripes. It is worn by both sexes in Scotland.
2. Goods of any quality or material of the pattern of a plaid or tartan; a checkered cloth or pattern.

Plaid, a. Having a pattern or colors which resemble a Scotch plaid; checkered or marked with bars or stripes at right angles to one another; as, "plaid muslin".

Plaided, Plaid"ed, a.

1. Of the material of which plaids are made; tartan.

"In plaided vest." Wordsworth.

2. Wearing a plaid.
Campbell.

Plaiding Plaid"ing (?), n. Plaid cloth.
— [https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/673/pg673.txt

This seems to me to give three American names for the crossed-stripe woven patterns I am describing. All these names have additional meanings, none of them are unambiguous (with the possible exception of plaiding, which would probably not be accepted in British English). Can we agree that the words "tartan", "plaid", and "checkered" can (among other uses) reasonably be used in English to describe crossed-stripe cloth outside of the Scottish and Irish cultural traditions (e.g. "a tartan kimono")? Or can we agree on any other term?
Wikipedia has Tartan patterns and Plaid (pattern) redirecting here; would anyone object if I wrote, or at least drafted, a global, non-culture-specific article to be the target of these links, as SnowFire suggested? HLHJ (talk) 00:30, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Every definition of 'tartan' you have provided and what most editors here are arguing is that 'tartan' is specifically a pattern related to Scottish culture, therefor this page should not be moved. Whether this is an appropriate redirect for those pages is a different discussion. Maybe Check_(pattern) would be better?—blindlynx (talk) 03:41, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am not arguing that tartan is not a pattern related to Scottish culture, merely that that is not the word's only meaning. Webster's "other material of a similar pattern" seems to me to unambiguously be a definition that allows referring to that kimono as tartan. Check (pattern) might work for US usage, which does not distinguish between the pattern found on a checkerboard, with squares of two different colours alternating orthogonally, and the pattern found on gingham, with three different colours of squares. But in British usage, and in many other languages, the two are distinguished, and indeed the conceptual distinction is pretty clear. If there are two concepts, there should be two articles (I recently split an article that covered an HVAC system and a Quranic reference to a spring in heaven in a single article; imagine the categorization...). The British OED (which I have not quoted due to copyright) says "tartan" is a woolen cloth with this pattern, "especially" as worn in the Scottish highlands, or other cloth with the same pattern (they silk and velvet [!] as examples), or a Scottish plaid with a clan's heraldic pattern. The OED's definition of "chequer" does not admit the three-colour-square version, let alone a pattern with narrow rectangles. I'm not sure what Indian English uses. Ideally, we want a term which:
  • clearly distinguishes the crossed-stripe pattern from the checkerboard checker (eliminates "checkered", since Americans use it for both)
  • will not be seen as catachresic by readers from outside the United States (eliminates "checkered" and "plaid", since Brits use these words for other meanings)
  • will not be seen as catachresic by readers from inside the United States (eliminates "tartan" since Americans think this is Scotland-specific[5][6])
Etymologically, we could go with the oldest term. Or we could go with a descriptive term. So... woven cross-stripe? Double stripe, by parallel with double ikat? If no-one cares, then sure, this discussion is over, but I'm happy to hear to other views. HLHJ (talk) 23:58, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Checkerboard. Two colours.
    Checkerboard. Two colours.
  • Gingham with squares in three colours.
    Gingham with squares in three colours.
  • Gingham with squares in four colours.
    Gingham with squares in four colours.
  • Three colours of squares, obviously not a possible plain-woven pattern.
    Three colours of squares, obviously not a possible plain-woven pattern.
  • A heraldic tartan, woven in 2/2 wool twill. Threads of four colours are interwoven to make rectangles of eight colours. Most of the rectangles aren't square.
    A heraldic tartan, woven in 2/2 wool twill. Threads of four colours are interwoven to make rectangles of eight colours. Most of the rectangles aren't square.
I think we've established that there's opposition to the proposed move, there is opposition to discussing alternate terms here, and the discussion has apparently gotten TL;DR. HLHJ (talk) 23:58, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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