Talk:Makhnovshchina

Map request

Can anyone add the actual territorial area the Free Territory actually covered? Buckshot06 23:45, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

That would be great, I have no idea where it is and have actually sought out said information. I could not find it. Zazaban (talk) 21:19, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I have now added a map. Zazaban (talk) 00:20, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Heather-Noël Schwartz as a reference

Zazaban, you tried reverting the change I made that included two good sources. I added another source that corroborates the source you questioned, and in addition wish to dispute your questioning of that source. Your objection was that it is hosted on an aol server, and that AOL is not a reliable source. I agree that AOL is not a reliable source, however, AOL is not the source, the source is Heather-Noël Schwartz, and the essay is simply hosted on an AOL webpage. Furthermore, this academic website cites it as information about the subject, which by the guidelines of wikipedia means it is welcome as a reference. [1] -(76.176.116.89 (talk) 23:10, 5 April 2009 (UTC))

My mistake then. Zazaban (talk) 23:15, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Source number one led to a page that no longer was there, and source number two led to a preview of a book that did not allow the ability to view the pages in question. I removed the sentence that was being cited. The other source linked to another book preview, but the page in question failed to load. I'm leaving that one for now. The first one can come back if actually accessible sources turn up. Zazaban (talk) 23:25, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

You can't delete a source just because you don't have access to it, as this would disqualify the majority of actual academic books out there. "It is useful but by no means necessary for the archived copy to be accessible via the internet." - wikipedia: reliable sources With regards to the other source, you can't delete it either just because it is no longer immediately accessible. It is still accessible through use of the internet tool that researchers are aware of called the wayback machine at [www.archive.org]. The last archived copy of it is right here: [2], and it is cited on an academic webpage. Since you should be able to access that one even if you cant access the other one, it should stay even though it cites the other one as its source.

On another note, it is funny that the two pages that i did cite are the only two pages that are blocked from the preview of that chapter, and they weren't blocked yesterday. Maybe google shifts which pages are accessible and did this randomly, or there is a conspiracy to prevent you from verifying it!

-(76.176.116.89 (talk) 21:09, 6 April 2009 (UTC))

"secret police forces"

I agree that this mention should stay, but the wording should perhaps be different. The source is too vague to lead to categorizing them as this, although they do sound somewhat nasty. I couldn't think of anything, so I'm leaving it for now. Any ideas? Zazaban (talk) 23:31, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Petro Skoropadsky

Petro Skoropadsky did not have any difficulties to conquer Ukraine. First of all he was not conquering and second of all he was not conquering. First of all refers to the fact that he was part of the Ukrainian Republican Army fighting against Bolsheviks, being a patriot of Ukraine, and second of all he played a inferior role in conquering Ukraine as it was recovered back by the Ukrainian Republican Army and the German troops as the RKKA withdrew due to the conditions of the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk. Later in November of 1918 Makhno did joined the Directory organized anti-Hetman revolution, not a Palace Revolution managing to oust the remnants of the former government in eastern Ukraine as P.Skoropadsky resigned (not recalled to Germany) due to advancing troops of the Ukrainian Republican Army led by Petliura. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 14:55, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Invented country

This country is invented. It never existed. It is the same as to claim that the Southern Ukraine was part of France due to the Entente occupation. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 00:14, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

So your claim is that this was an "occupation" rather than the establishment of a distinct socio-political entity? Perhaps it is more like the "occupation" of Paris by its inhabitants during the Paris Commune. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.118.10.85 (talk) 03:30, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Anarchist Ukraine

Is there any sourced reason to call Free Territory "Anarchist Ukraine" in the opening paragraph. Was it ever referred as such anywhere except for this article? I am planning to remove that title unless the sources will be given. Beta M (talk) 11:59, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

2014 Resurrection

I removed this section since it relied on conjecture and had no established connection to the Free Territory. ldvhl (talk) 18:14, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Your claim is obviously false, as it is literally the same territory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.212.4.12 (talk) 00:55, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

First of all, the rebels have drawn parallels to the Donetsk–Krivoy Rog Soviet Republic (as mentioned | here), not the Free Territory, which are different things. Second, outside of Donetsk Oblast, this is not the same territory (what Novorossiya claims and what it controls are different things). If a reference can be provided that clearly states that the Donetsk People's Republic or Luhansk People's Republic claim direct descent from Makhno and his anarchists, that's one thing, otherwise this section is original research.Konchevnik81 (talk) 20:42, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Do you have any sources to back up your claim? Also, please don't revert without agreement on the talk page. I'm removing the not-encyclopedic content again. If you find sources, we can discuss fixing that section. ldvhl (talk) 19:23, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Once again removed this section as it cited blogs (non-reliable-sources) and two websites. One website cited (http://www.eurasiareview.com/21062014-historical-basis-novorossiyas-independence-analysis/) makes Novorossiya more connected to communist soviets than the Makhnovist soviets. The other website (http://www.thenation.com/article/189137/eastern-ukraine-becoming-peoples-republic-or-puppet-state#) references only one leader in the ongoing conflict and not an over-arching tie to the Free Territories as claimed. Again, please discuss edits before making them. Also, speculation has no place on Wikipedia. ldvhl (talk) 20:47, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

The references are sound. Your claims of "not an over-arching tie to the Free Territories" are not. The ref is to e.g. "the commander of a unit called the Ghost Brigade who names Vladimir Lenin and Ukrainian anarchist leader Nestor Makhno as political influences, dreams of a direct democracy with state control of key economic sectors.". That clearly demonstrates "an over-arching tie". Be real. Don't edit-war. Respect facts. Pls don't let yr political views stand in the way of facts listed on Wp. Don't make up new pretexts for deleting facts when yr old pretexts are refuted. Allow the fact that the East-Ukrainians in "Novorussiya" see themselves as ideological heirs to Makho's Free Territory to stand. Pls. 85.164.61.86 (talk) 19:11, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

This issue has been forwarded on to the admins at [[3]]. ldvhl (talk) 13:48, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Tnx. Pls keep in mind that the term "Direct Democracy" (as in ref.-quote above) is a subset of Anarchism, tying directly in to Makhnos Free Territory.85.164.61.86 (talk) 05:41, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

I know what direct democracy and anarchism are. You still need to address the points I made above regarding reliable sources in order to include that section as-written. Please discuss such sources here before reverting again. ldvhl (talk) 12:15, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Part of the Donetsk People's Republic?

I have again reverted Guto2003's inclusion of the Free Territory as part of the Donetsk People's Republic. The DPR is an unrecognized rebel group that de jure holds no territory. Please do not revert without sourcing or a change in official status. ldvhl (talk) 23:14, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

"Unrecognized state"

Is this really an accurate and neutral label for "an attempt to form a stateless anarchist society"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.86.82.134 (talk) 05:00, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Question regarding the name “Free Territory”

I’ve been researching this topic over the last month or so, and I’ve yet to find a scholarly article or primary source referring to the “country” as “Free Territory.” Now, this could just be because of my limited reading, exacerbated by relying on English language sources, but the sources cited on this page that I’ve looked at so far (about 75% of them) don’t refer to the area as “Free Territory” either. So, I’m wondering if there are any scholarly or primary sources that actually refer to the area as “Free Territory.” If not, I propose we rename the page to something that’s actually supported by the literature, such as Makhnovia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WiJaMa (talk • contribs) 21:56, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

do we know of any official Makhnovist documents that refer by the territory by some name? Thespündragon 19:11, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for replying. Unfortunately, I don’t think I’ve read any official Makhnovist documents that give the territory a name, but I’ve only been researching this topic for a few months and I haven’t spent much time with primary sources outside of my books. One interesting thing is that if you search on Google for “Free Territory”, there aren’t any results from before 1 May 2006 that refer to the area under Makhnovist control. 1 May 2006 was the date this article was created. While there are a few webpages originally published before May Day 2006 that do call it Free Territory, that name was invariably added after that date. I do remember reading somewhere, in Anarchy’s Cossack or Anarchism of Nestor Makhno or Apostles of Revolution that the area was called by some “Makhnovia”, but unfortunately I don’t remember enough to give a reference and it’s not in my notes. WiJaMa (talk) 02:52, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

From the Makhnovist writings I can recall, they do not seem to use a specific name for their controlled territories itself, only using wither a geographic designation or something like 'the regions under our control'. If we can't find any Makhnovist writings with 'Free Territory', or any writings about it using that name prior to 2006, it may be most appropriate to use Makhnovia, Makhnovist Ukraine, Makhnovist territories, etc, as the title. Thespündragon 14:33, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

civilians treatment

Historians view

1. THE FATE OF MENNONIT ES IN UKRAINE AND THE CRIMEA DURING SOVIET COLLECTIVIZATION AND THE FAMINE (1930-1933) COLIN PETER NEUFELDT: malaria, cholera. and typhus, Makhno's troops infected the Mennonite women that they raped and the Mennonite families from whorn they demanded food and lodging.

2. An uptodate master thesis: The Makhnos of Memory: Mennonite and Makhnovist Narratives of the Civil War in Ukraine, 1917-1921 by Sean David Patterson. It discusses a lot about the anarchist rapes In hand with reports of murder and torture were the reports of rape. The rape of Mennonite women in particularly is stated as a motivating factor for joining the Selbstschutz. Indeed, Makhnovist raids became synonymous with rape. By 1920 some 100 women and girls were being treated for syphilis in Chortitza alone.66 Apologists for the Makhnovists may suggest that a whole host of armies equally guilty of horrendous atrocities were present at various times in the colonies, but for the women who suffered the attacks there is no doubt as to their rapists’ identity. Furthermore, the accounts given all correspond with the known periods of Makhnovist occupation.67

3. Playground of Violence: Mennonites and Makhnovites in the Time of War and Revolution Mikhail Akulov The Kazakh-British Technical University, Almaty, Kazakhstan What ensued, however, was the reign of semi-indiscriminate terror. Extensive is the dolorous panoply of the Makhnovite murder scenes: Eichenfeld, where more than 80 colonists were shot, Orlovo with 44 victims, Hochfeld with 19, etc. (Venger, 2011, p. 10). 22 To those executed must be added the uncounted victims of rape theft, physical and moral abuse. Typhus brought into colonies by the infected Makhnovite armies further decimated the villagers, cementing the Mennonite impression of facing the Satan himself and giving rise to the narrative of martyrdom (Patterson, 2013, p. 25).

4. From the same author of above:Mikhail Akulov. PHD thesis of Harvard University.

While I don't see much about him online, I did find some scathing criticisms of Akulov by former colleagues http://www.beaubranson.com/roussev-statement-about-kbtu/ It doesn't necessarily discredit him, but I would look at his sources to make sure that he's representing them fairly. IanH84 (talk) 00:33, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

Memoirs

1. From anarchist view: Volin: The second fault of Makhno and of many of his intimates -- both commanders and others -- was their behaviour towards women. Especially when drunk, these men let themselves indulge in shameful and even odious activities, going as far as orgies in which certain women were forced to participate. It goes without saying that these acts of debauchery produced a demoralising effect on those who knew about them, and Makhno's good name suffered from this.

2. From Mennonites view Rempel, David G.; Carlson, Cornelia Rempel (2003).

i)A Mennonite Family in Tsarist Russia and the Soviet Union

How, they wondered, could God have permitted the murder of so many innocent people, the rape of defenceless women, and the commission of so many other acts of unconscionable brutality?

ii) )No Songs Were at the Gravesite' The Bltunenort (Russia) Massacre (November 80-12, 1919) Translated and Edited by John B. Toews, Regent College The (Malikizovzi) command, a [robber] band, small in size but aggressive in its actions, resided in Mr. Goossen's house in Ohrloff. They carried on throughout the district-eating, drinking, robbing and harassing the people. At that point something seemed to curb their excesses and they stopped short of murder and rape. It was possible to pursue one's daily affairs and travel from village to village. Towards the east all was quiet in the villages of Gnadenfeld district. Rumor had it that units of the White Army were coming from the northeast

Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 22:33, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

These are some interesting findings. The current article is essentialy fandom, I wouldn't call most sources to be up the standards of WP:Verifiability. There also seems to be a lack of sources on the topic in general. As a result of this, the article makes no statements on the civilian population of this apparent state. The impression I'm getting from the available sources and especially your findings is, that Makhno would be best described as a warlord and that this "free territory" should be described less as a state with institutions but rather as an area where Makhnos Troops held military power. I'd consider the sources claiming things like "Workers and peasants were organised into anarchist communities governed via a process of participatory democracy and were linked via an anarchist federation." to be dubious, given that they all avoid making statements on Makhnos support with the population of these areas. -- Liberaler Humanist (talk) 19:12, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

"Vasilis Vourkoutiotis: Reform in Revolutionary Times: The Civil-military Relationship in Early Soviet Russia" appears to contain information on this topic. -- Liberaler Humanist (talk) 19:24, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

Dear friend thank you. You described everything within a word: fandom. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 19:44, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

Human Rights section written and cited in bad faith

The section in question cites an entire appendix of An Anarchist FAQ, but lists only the accusations, not the extensive writing and references from Anarchist, Marxist-Leninist, and other sources contemporary to the existence of the Free Territory and the Makhnovist movement that contradict those allegations. The source provides numerous sources stating that Makhno outspokenly opposed antisemitism, Jewish anarchists chaired three of four Makhnoist regional conferences and others served in critical roles in the Black Army, and that the response to antisemitic crimes was to execute the perpetrators. I can find no reference in the appendix to sexual abuse of women except by the Red Army, and several sources mentioning that women were treated as equals. IanH84 (talk) 00:29, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

Any sources for "Free Territory" name?

Hello, I have been looking through our sources, and none of them seem to use the name Free Territory to refer to the territory controlled by the Makhnovists. I have also been unable to find any other reliable sources using the name. Do we have any sources using this name? If not, I believe the page should be moved to the common academic term "Makhnovia", or to the name "Makhnovist region" as used in Nestor Makhno; Anarchy's Cossack and History of the Makhnovist Movement. -Thespündragon 23:58, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Is there any source to suggest the term "Makhnovia" was ever once used at the time by a single partisan of the FT? Seems far more likely to be a subsequent exonym. 2A00:23C5:1203:CE01:89E:8D1F:FF:4E0D (talk) 13:30, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 10 November 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. (non-admin closure) Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:30, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

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Free Territory → Makhnovia – The name "Free Territory" does not seem to be a common name for the territories controlled by the Makhnovists, and none of our sources used for this article use the term. The term does not appear in any sources that I can find relating to the subject. From what I can find, terms more commonly used to refer to this region are Makhnovia(Google Books), the romanized term Makhnovshchyna(Google Books), or the phrase Makhnovist region(preferred by some Anarchist sources such as Nestor Makhno: Anarchy's Cossack and History of the Makhnovist Movement). The article name also creates unneccesary ambiguity with the Free Territory of Trieste, which is sometimes referred to as simply the Free Territory. Thespündragon 02:56, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

• Support per well-reasoned and well-supported nomination. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 07:36, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Movied IP comment to talk page section

The IP user at 78.104.14.17 made the following comment within a cleanup template, while it appeared to be better suited as a talk page comment with the appropriate issue templates. The cleanup template is also not meant to be used for content disputes.

"This article lacks secondary, scientific sources. The sources listed are almost exclusively political pamphlets that are obviously biased. The article itself was probably written as fanfiction and continues to be used as such. Sourced information on this civil war groups ethnic cleansing against the german-speaking menonite minority was recently replaced with additional quotes from anarchist propaganda literature. The lack of reputable sources and literature points towards another problem with the subject: The articles claim that the thing described was a state seems doubtfull. There may have been a militia and a warlord, but there are apparently no sources that indicate the existence of any institutions or anything else that would constitute a state or any society." -78.104.14.17
-Thespündragon 23:26, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

category

Bvcitizen,

please read the status in the infobox as well: "stateless territory". As read the categories description: "This category collects on states...", so obviously states are expected there.(KIENGIR (talk) 04:27, 18 March 2021 (UTC))

"The category of communist states. This category collects on states that communist parties monopolize ruling power.

• For former communist states, see Category:Former socialist republics."

That is what this category says and nowhere does it mention a stateless territory is not considered a state, and also a state is another term for a country so why is Maknhovia not considered a state. Bvcitizen (talk) 14:19, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Whether it is or isn't a state might be a relevant question at State (polity) or Sovereign state, but it isn't relevant here. When discussing a category for this article, you don't need to resolve the question about whether it is or isn't a state. Per WP:DEFCAT, the only thing you have to worry about is whether "reliable sources commonly and consistently define the subject as having" the characteristic of "communist state". In my opinion, this discussion should try to concentrate on resolving that question, rather than issues about statehood. Mathglot (talk) 18:38, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

The category Communist State brings a sense of authoritarianism and totalitarianism that was, in fact, the very opposite of Makhnovia's status as anarchist. Additionally, Communist States usually have some connection to Marxism-Leninism, unlike Makhnovia, which directly opposed Lenin's policy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.85.200.227 (talk) 17:54, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your input, but I doubt KIEGIR will respond to finish this convo. But after reading the Communist State page I think we’re both wrong. Bvcitizen (talk) 21:47, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

I uphold what I said, it does not have to mention what you say, as a car category does not have to mention that an average passenger car has 4 wheels.(KIENGIR (talk) 19:16, 20 March 2021 (UTC))

Requested move 28 June 2021

Makhnovia → Free Territory – More common name and previous title for 10 years. See: 1 and 2 Des Vallee (talk) 10:53, 28 June 2021 (UTC) —Relisting. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 02:41, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Simple google search reveals over 440,000 results for "Free Territory" with google using the name for it. Makhnovia brings up a mere 37,000, over 90% less then the Free Territory. This is taking into account the extreme differences and the fact much of the search results for Makhnovia are just redirects to Free Territory.

It can be argued that the term "Free Territory" can be used to describe various different societies or examples, however on search the results of "Free Territory" brings up mostly results on the Ukrainian Free Territory. If we search "free territory of Ukraine" alone, something which would never be confused with other entities called the Free Territory. The search results bring up 206,000 results still over 5 times more common then "Makhnovia". Per WP:COMMONNAME the Free Territory is utterly more common and this article was named "Free territory" from 2009 until 2019.

As for scholarly sources, using google scholar results for "Free Territory Ukraine" brings up 246,000 results, Makhnovia brings up 20 results. Nearly all of which describe it as a essentially a bandit state as the term Makhnovia was created for that reason for the Bolsheviks to discredit the Free Territory as a warlord state, see this.

While "Free Territory Ukraine" brings up many results not all are related to the anarchist Free Territory, searching "Free Territory Ukraine anarchist" shows 19,800 results and brings up only references to the anarchist society.

The term "Makhnovshchina" brings up 211 results, which still is 19,569/245,769 short of "Free Territory of Ukraine". This proves enough that the name "Makhnovia" is utterly fringe.

JSTOR a peer reviewed publication shows 2 results for Makhnovia, all of which are just quick mentions. While I could find at least 5 separate articles about the free territory 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Des Vallee (talk) 10:43, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

The searches above are poor indicators and the result counts are misread. Search reliable sources with book search, not web search. Use quotation marks to search for the phrase “free territory,” and not just anything with isolated words “territory” and “free” in it. Read the counts from the very last page of results. Please read WP:SET for guidelines. —Michael Z. 14:25, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Fair "free territory" Ukraine anarchist brings up 665 results still much, much more then the 20 of Makhnovia, and I can't really find reliable sources using the term "Makhnovia" as a title, I can find mostly passing mentions, there is only 20 bare mentions for "Makhnovia". As an example Ukraine, l9l8-21 and Spain, 1936-39: A Comparison of Armed Anarchist Struggles in Europe Anarchist Struggles in Europe, an honors reviewed thesis uses the term "Free Territory" and "Revolutionary anti-authoritarian movements and anarchist studies 2020" and Envisioning an Anarcho Pacifist Peace: A case for the convergence of anarchism and pacifism and an exploration of the Gandhiam movement for a stateless society. As well most other sources on the matter. Des Vallee (talk) 15:01, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

• Move to Makhnovshchina. Since "free territory" Ukraine returned results about Zaporozhian Cossacks c.1650, I narrowed the results by adding “Makhno.”

• In Google Books:
  1. "Makhnovshchina" Makhno -Wikipedia, about 1,110
  2. "free territory" Makhno -Wikipedia, about 731
  3. "Mahknovshchyna" Makhno -Wikipedia, 111
  4. "Makhnovia" Makhno -Wikipedia, 66
• In Google Scholar:
  1. "Makhnovshchina" Makhno -Wikipedia, 135
  2. "free territory" Makhno -Wikipedia, 39
  3. "Mahknovshchyna" Makhno -Wikipedia, 23
  4. "Makhnovia" Makhno -Wikipedia, 13

 —Michael Z. 16:44, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose free territory (no caps, so to the dab) could mean anything - would suggest Makhnovia, an anarchist society during the Ukrainian Revolution 1917–1921. Better some variant of Makhnovshchyna. So Support Michael's counter-proposal above In ictu oculi (talk) 18:55, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

• Support Michael proposal of a variant of 'Makhnovshchina', my belief a couple years back that 'Makhnovia' was the common name in English-language sources for this topic was incorrect per Michael. 'Makhnovshchina' seems to be the common name for both the Makhnovist movement itself and the territory they controlled, but addressing this would only require a slight wording change in the lede. -Thespündragon 05:23, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
• Relisting note there seems to be consensus for some move, but not yet for any specific new name. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 02:41, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
• As "Makhnovshchina" is currently a disambiguation page for multiple pages relating to the Makhnovist movement, something like "Makhnovshchina (movement)" would be needed. How does that specific parenthetical disambiguation sound? (other options include (territory) or (faction)) -Thespündragon 05:18, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

  One of those is a section link, another is an article that doesn’t mention the name, and the third is this article. So I would move that one to Makhnovshchina (disambiguation), because it doesn’t seem terribly important. —Michael Z. 13:20, 19 July 2021 (UTC)