Talk:Pharsalus repandus

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Requested move 14 November 2023

It has been proposed in this section that Pharsalus repandus be renamed and moved to Pharsalus (planthopper).

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly.

Links: current log • target log • direct move

Pharsalus → Pharsalus (planthopper) – Incoming links and search results suggest that if "Pharsalus" has a primary topic, it's as the Latin name for Farsala. Pharsalus should be either a primary redirect to there or a dab: I'm not sure which is better. Certes (talk) 09:45, 14 November 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 03:48, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support and redirect to Farsala per nom. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:55, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose - it is a valid scientific name, and has priority over a little-used alternative spelling that would make Pharsalus into a redirect. There are literally hundreds if not thousands of parallel examples where scientific names are given priority over redirects to other articles. This is very literally what hatnotes are for. Dyanega (talk) 21:14, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That is indeed what hatnotes are for and we should maintain the status quo if we determine that the genus is a primary topic. Certes (talk) 22:34, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Which it clearly is not. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:51, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I started this discussion because I think it is not PT, but let's hope for other opinions. A taxon does not automatically take priority over a place: we wouldn't put Atlanta (gastropod) or Arizona (snake) at the base name. Certes (talk) 11:51, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We're not talking about making Pharsalus the base name for a different article. The OP is asking to make Pharsalus into a redirect that points to Farsala. That is not appropriate, and your examples are also not relevant. A better example would be asking to change the article for the genus Felis into Felis (mammal) and turn "Felis" into a redirect pointing to HD 85951, whose alternative name is "Felis". Dyanega (talk) 16:17, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've reviewed the discussion at the WP entry for primary topic, and I just found the sub-section about redirects versus direct links, which I hadn't noticed at first. The policy stated there would seem to apply if the metrics support that people are arriving at the "Farsala" article via their searching for the name "Pharsalus" on a regular basis. Assuming this is true, then I will support the policy, and withdraw my objection. I wasn't trying to be difficult, I just didn't see where policy endorsed the renaming. Dyanega (talk) 16:44, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we have a policy for or against the renaming. It's just a judgement call based on what readers are likely to be looking for when they type in "Pharsalus". If it's clearly one topic or the other then they should be taken there; if not then let's take them to a dab. Certes (talk) 16:49, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

WikiNav suggests that half of the readers landing on Pharsalus click through to Farsala, and a further sixth go to Battle of Pharsalus. It's less clear what the other third do – they may have found the planthopper they were looking for, or have given up, or be some sort of bot which just crawls the page without following its links. Certes (talk) 16:56, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Redirects do not automatically have priority over direct links, nor vice versa. Primary topic is about what is more likely to be sought and has greater long-term significance. I think it's common ground that some taxa are primary topics and some are not. Examples of those that are not, because they are less likely and significant than a primary redirect, include Almeria (moth) and Andalucia (genus). Certes (talk) 16:47, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Pharsalus repandus. The genus is monotypic so we can use the binomial for natural disambiguation per WP:MONOTYPICFAUNA (but a redirect for Pharsalus (planthopper) should also be created). There are 34 incoming links to this title and none of them intend the genus (the family Ricaniidae presently has a link ''[[Farsala|Pharsalus]]''). I'd favor a disambiguation page at this title; while most of the incoming links do intend the city, I suspect most readers searching for this spelling are interested in the battle(s). A dab page should have the city and the genus as well as Battle of Pharsalus (disambiguation) in a See also section. Plantdrew (talk) 17:21, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that dab at Ricaniidae ws certainly a mistake, I've fixed it now in anticipation of the new dab. Thanks, and yes, I'd forgotten about the possibility of doing a redirect to the species, which I support. Dyanega (talk) 17:26, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies: the link from Ricaniidae to the city was my fault. I was fixing links intended for the city and must have pressed the wrong button. Thanks for fixing it. Certes (talk) 17:36, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Good spot. If it's monotypic then it should be moved to the species name, creating my suggestion as a redirect. The battles (especially Battle of Pharsalus) are credible meanings of Pharsalus rather than mere PTMs and lend weight to the argument for a dab rather than a change of primary topic. In fact we might even move Battle of Pharsalus (disambiguation) to Pharsalus, listing the genus and city above the battles, and revising the hatnote on Battle of Pharsalus to link there directly. Certes (talk) 17:51, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

When we close the discussion, I can handle the move of this existing article to Pharsalus repandus and the creation of the Pharsalus (planthopper) redirect, if someone else would take care of the other changes. Dyanega (talk) 18:03, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm happy to write the dab if there's consensus for one, or to modify the existing battle dab if that's preferable, and sort out the hatnotes. I'm glad the discussion attracted useful input from both history and taxonomy specialists but let's give others the rest of the week to chip in first. Certes (talk) 19:33, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think about military history much, but now that I am thinking about it I agree that battles aren't necessarily PTMs; it is perfectly normal to write something like "At Verdun, German forces....". Plantdrew (talk) 20:01, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Insects has been notified of this discussion. —usernamekiran (talk) 03:48, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

New proposal based on comments above. Move Pharsalus to Pharsalus repandus. Create Pharsalus (planthopper) as a redirect to Pharsalus repandus. Overwrite Pharsalus (a new redirect created by the move) by a dab listing the city, the genus, Battle of Pharsalus (disambiguation) and anything else that's relevant. @Dyanega, Necrothesp, and Plantdrew:: do you support this new proposal? Certes (talk) 11:09, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not really bothered about the title of the insect article, but I still maintain that Pharsalus should be a redirect to Farsala. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:11, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support new proposal. Plantdrew (talk) 17:40, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]