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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Potguru (talk | contribs) at 23:04, 22 January 2016 (→Viriditas continued attacks). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Comment

temporary author comments[edit source | edit]

The author disagrees with the reviewers below who suggest this article should be a subset of the "cannabis" article. Cannabis is one item sold at dispensaries. They can also sell accessories, related merchandise, pipes, vaporizers, souvenirs, etc. Hovering your mouse over the first and second footnotes will help the reader see that the term "marijuana dispensary" is defined in several of the United States and now in other countries. Just as Drugs Stores and liquor stores are a separate and unique types of retail stores, marijuana dispensaries deserve the same distinction. The various local, state, and country laws regarding dispensaries deserve their own subsection. Noteable dispensaries deserve their own subsection. I will aim to demonstrate my belief by creating more depth and citing my references. --Potguru (talk) 16:20, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User:Potguru, part of the problem that I see is that you haven't done the necessary research on the subject beyond a quick google search. Wikipedia articles require additional research to create a topic. Most, if not all of the information you have added already appears in different articles, so if you want to create a new article on a singular topic, you first need to start with a good source that covers the topic, not pick different sources and combine them together. Have you been to your local library or consulted any bibliographies on this subject? To begin with, you should be able to identify at least one good print source (book, newspaper, magazine article) that summarizes the subject before continuing. Then, you can work from there. Viriditas (talk) 20:31, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above poster set to war with me and gone to great efforts to stop the publication of this article including recommending it for deletion. In the process he changed the original name of the article from marijuana dispensary to his prefered cannabis dispensary, a thing I for which I can find no evidence to support its existence. --Potguru (talk) 19:41, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The edit war is over now, it's probably best to forget it. Let's move on to more productive conversation, please. I think we'd all like to help improve the article at this point, at the bottom of this Talk page is more discussion relating to the article title and the appropriateness of various terms. Chrisw80 (talk) 19:49, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

my thoughts

I see you have been working on this article for a while. I was just wondering if you had by any chance reviewed the Head shop article. I am not saying they are the same thing but there may be a bit of overlap between the your article and it. Krj373 (talk) 16:30, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]


Thank you very much for that. A head shop is fundamentally different in that a head shop cannot legally sell cannabis. I will incorporate your comment. Thanks!!

That is the primary difference is the legality of one over the other. They are some what related and the head shop article is older & has been polished over the years. It was just a thought. Your article keeps popping up in the recent changes. So I figured I would take a look and see what you where doing. Another piece of advise when you make a comment on a talk insert ~~~~ behind your comment. It adds a signature otherwise the sign bot will get you. :) Krj373 (talk) 16:39, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Kkj373!! --Potguru (talk) 17:22, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Commons categories

I started https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Marijuana_dispensaries.

I see also shops. Same thing? Please advise. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 01:49, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Awesome, yes they all the same, thanks you rock!!! --Potguru (talk) 04:45, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox

Hi there, I'm a little confused by the info box, it contains information about marijuana (species, conservation status, etc.) but the article is about the dispensaries. Isn't this duplicating information more appropriately located in Cannabis? Thanks! Chrisw80 (talk) 03:43, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that is a taxobox and shouldn't be there. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 03:45, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I rather preferred the dispensary image and sidenavbar. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 03:47, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'll get back to an image, Anna, as soon as I find a good one... I promise!! --Potguru (talk) 04:43, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Name

Should this article be named "Cannabis dispensary" to keep it consistent with our cannabis articles? Sizeofint (talk) 16:57, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. ---Another Believer (Talk) 18:21, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Viriditas (talk) 10:03, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No, it should be named marijuana dispensary as that is the more common term used to describe them. Calling them cannabis dispensaries is uncommon but that changes as people start using the word cannabis to marijuana. These words all have meaning depending on who the local government is. and oh, by the way, can you make it an article again? --Potguru (talk) 21:31, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Continuing the above idea. I am having a difficult time locating sources that actually use the term "cannabis dispensary". The vast majority of references seem to prefer the term marijuana dispensary. For example:

--Potguru (talk) 16:10, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Cannabis is already the well-established consensus term for a plant/drug on Wikipedia (e.g., Cannabis in the United States, Cannabis_(drug), 420_(cannabis_culture). OhNoitsJamie Talk 18:21, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
WP:Naming criteria may be of relevance here. There are cannabis vs. marijuana discussions in virtually every archive of Talk:Cannabis (drug). Sizeofint (talk) 20:22, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Google scholar indicates "Cannabis dispensary" has some use in literature [1] Sizeofint (talk) 20:29, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This is not an article about cannabis or marijuana, it is an article about marijuana dispensaries. There are VERY few reputable sources to support the existence of cannabis dispensaries. When you used google, you forgot to use the plus sign. The actual results of your query are:
  • "+"cannabis dispensary" (Scholar = About 104 results (0.05 sec))
compared to
Yes, I wasn't attempting to compare usage of the terms. I agree that "Marijuana dispensary" is much more commonly used. I was just showing that there are in fact scholarly papers that use the term "Cannabis dispensary". Our use of the term is consequently not completely unsupported. As far as I can see, the essence of the debate is WP:COMMONNAME vs. WP:CONSISTENCY. I happen to lean more toward consistency. Sizeofint (talk) 20:56, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Article title vs Prose

The article name (ATM) uses Cannabis but, in every instance in prose it's marijuana, seems one needs to be changed and the article's title is unlikely to change during an AfD. Community consensus is Cannabis and that also is unlikely to change, regardless of how many reliable sources use marijuana. Since this is an obvious Keep, might as well get this discussion started. Mlpearc (open channel) 16:58, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This is because somebody decided they should change the article from the original name and subject (marijuana dispensary) to this fictitious thing called a cannabis dispensary. (grumble). --Potguru (talk) 17:32, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Marijuana is certainly more commonly used. However, common use isn't the only consideration. It seems that there is an informal consensus regarding use of the name "Cannabis" in article titles, but I don't see anything recent that is a formal discussion directly on the topic. Is there something more recent that I'm missing? I'd love to see some links if anyone has them.
I do find some relevant guidance in WP:NPOVNAME which states:

Notable circumstances under which Wikipedia often avoids a common name for lacking neutrality include the following:
1. Trendy slogans and monikers that seem unlikely to be remembered or connected with a particular issue years later
2. Colloquialisms where far more encyclopedic alternatives are obvious

In essence, the guidance suggests that generally a more formal name should be used in article titles instead of a colloquial term. It seems that most often in these cases, the colloquial term ("marijuana dispensary" in this case) is created as a redirect to point at the article with the more encyclopedic name. This has already been done in this case (searching Wikipedia for "marijuana dispensary" gets you to this article). Chrisw80 (talk) 19:26, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Chris that was done by the user who moved the article back to my draft space, the same user who is requesting deletion. The issue created is that there is simply no such thing as a cannabis dispensary, nor should we try to invent such a thing because some people feel a way about a word. If this is an encyclopedia, please find references to support the notion that the subject is EVER called a cannabis dispensary. I have provided a ton of references that use the term "marijuana dispensary".
See my request for mediation.
This section's initial question reveals the problem, if the name remains cannabis dispensary then the article needs to be rewritten into an article about a fictitious thing. --Potguru (talk) 20:00, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hi User:Potguru, I don't think a complete rewrite would be necessary. Also, please don't misunderstand my intentions here, my purpose here is to help find a way to result in the best article for Wikipedia. Part of the idea here is to be accurate in what we say on Wikipedia, not only reflect common vernacular. As I noted, while commonality of a term is definitely part of a discussion regarding an article name, it's not ALL of it. I've seen your references several times regarding the term marijuana dispensary and I think there is merit there. Thank you for providing them. I also am offering some suggestions for you to consider in kind. I do note that there are sources for "Cannabis dispensary". Here are a few for your consideration:
Texas Marijuana Legalization 2016: State Prepares To Issue Cannabis Dispensary Licenses
Maine Medical Cannabis Dispensaries See Sales Surge
11 groups vie to open Berkeley’s 4th cannabis dispensary
It seems some dispensaries also do use the term "cannabis" to refer to themselves:
Green Dragon Cannabis Company
3D Cannabis Centers
Harborside Health Center
Alaska Cannabis Club (Granted, it's not a dispensary, but I included for the use of "cannabis")
The Apothecarium
Royal Cannabis Dispensary
In fact, it looks like the two terms are intermixed quite often. So I think there is merit to both sides of the argument.
Looking further, I looked at the definition of "marijuana" and it says in the definition that it is "Cannabis, especially as smoked in cigarettes". From what I've seen, most dispensaries sell far more than just dry leaf for smoking. They also sell edibles, various hemp products, hash, etc. I hope this helps. Chrisw80 (talk) 21:35, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Chris, again, thank you for taking the time to actually consider the topic and evidence. I dismiss the sources you cite for the term dispensary under the following conditions.
  • 1) the IBTimes article does not use the term cannabis dispensary in the body of the article, only the title.
  • 2) The others are questionable... you see the problem. Good sources, like the New York Times and Wall Street Journal and Huffington Post all seem to adopt the term marijuana dispensary.
  • 3) I think that the fact people often interchange the terms is important to note but "marijuana dispensary" is actually a defined term by many regulating authorities in the US and other countries.
  • 4) People use all kinds of words on their websites in an effort to garner attention but even the image of the "dispensary" on the page calls itself the cannabis station marijuana dispensary. (Their about page).
  • 5) In 2010, when many of the above companies were formed it was considered "classier" to use the word cannabis over marijuana... particularly in the name of the company. In Denver there were about 700 companies who applied for original licenses in 2010, most who included the word "marijuana" in their name found banking and renting to be difficult. People with really silly names didn't make it past year one. http://www.postindependent.com/news/13858637-113/marijuana-medical-recreational-state

Potguru, you're welcome, I just want to find a good solution here. Obviously folks have a wide variety of emotions on the topic. Remember that we're aiming for consensus in this discussion, it's possible that the "right" solution may not be to anyone's complete satisfaction. Regarding the IBT article, it's still relevant as I'm specifically referring to the title of the page. :) Regarding your point 2, I wasn't necessarily saying that all the sources I used were WP:RS, sorry if there was a misunderstanding there, just adding some additional info for consideration. For point 3, I understand that many regulating authorities call it as such, and again that's merit to your argument. (joke)Though, when have you known the government to get things right? :)(/joke) For point 4, I think this shows that there is confusion about the term and this discussion about which to use is important. I just wanted to point out that there ARE people who do use Cannabis in this context that are in the industry. What about your thoughts regarding the definition of marijuana that I cited? Chrisw80 (talk) 22:44, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think that a good definition of marijuana is cannabis. I would have written ... the parts of the cannabis plant that are normally consumed. But that is not the same thing as a marijuana dispensary which is (most often) licensed and regulated by a government tax office. --Potguru (talk) 22:52, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not ready for mainspace

I've moved this back to draft due to problems that were never addressed in the original reviews. Viriditas (talk) 20:11, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Please be more specific. Previous items have all been addressed. I consider your action vandalism. --Potguru (talk) 21:29, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In another post, which I moved to the users talk page, the user gives the following vague reasoning for the article deletion.

" have moved it to Draft:Cannabis dispensary. Most of the article is unsourced original research or a poorly composed combination of different topics. Viriditas (talk) 20:08, 20 January 2016 (UTC)"

To which I contend:

The article, an original work by me, is completely researched and includes 28 distinct references backing up each and every claim. I am unaware of any non obvious claims made that still need citation but if you can point me to one I'll modify the statement or make a citation. This is not a reason to delete the article.

To the claim "poorly composed combination of different topics", I respond: I am confused by your statement. The article is a combination of facts about marijuana dispensaries including information about the history of marijuana dispensaries, the laws that effect them, their existence in popular culture, differences between medical and recreational shops. Perhaps you could be more specific and try to improve the article instead of removing it with little justification?

Response

I'm happy to respond:
  1. Wikipedia doesn't publish original work. Any original work by you (as you claim) must be deleted before this article can be moved to mainspace. Wikipedia relies on secondary sources for its content, not original work by its users
  2. You say the article is "completely researched", but in fact not a single reliable source about the subject is used. I recommend using Google Scholar, Google Books, database indices, and your public library for details. The article should be based on good reliable secondary sources about the topic. For example, you should use an article from the International Journal on Drug Policy, not potmalls.com or leafly.com. You should consult reliable sources like the Handbook of Cannabis, not hightimes.com or weedmaps.com
  3. I have reviewed your 28 sources which supposedly back up your claims, and I have found that is not true. Half of the article is unsourced, and the other half is poorly sourced.
  4. What you consider "non-obvious" might not be clear. Please source the entire article with WP:RS.
  5. You have claimed that he article is a "combination of facts". Yes, that's precisely the problem. We call that synthesis and coatracking and it's discouraged. Please avoid combining facts and instead begin by focusing on one reliable source that covers the entire subject. By focusing on one good citation to start, you are forced to frame the subject according to the source. This is how we write articles. Then, you can branch out into different subtopics with other sources. This is how article development works.
If any of this isn't clear, please ask. Viriditas (talk) 10:20, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

At a current ratio of 14 against to 1 (Viriditas) the community seems to disagree with your position as noted here. --Potguru (talk) 17:34, 22 January 2016 (UTC)Potguru (talk) 17:02, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

for reference, most of the original references user above questions (from my notes) :

--Potguru (talk) 17:47, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Famous Amsterdam shops

I commented out a request for more info on this on the article space. The Bulldog and the Grasshopper (now defunct) are probably two of the best known; I think there are a few others. It's been awhile since I've visited.OhNoitsJamie Talk 17:15, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for that, now we have some names. Anyone have any pictures? Or a location? What are they called today, still coffee shops? --Potguru (talk) 18:09, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't realize that we already have an article for Coffeeshop_(Netherlands), and as I noted in the [[2]] for this article, this article's title should probably be moved to Cannabis dispensaries in the United States, since that is the major scope of the coverage. OhNoitsJamie Talk 20:34, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Viriditas (talk) 20:51, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Coffeshops are country specif, and they are NOT marijuana dispensaries... they are illegal operations which (by definition) is not what a marijuana dispensary is. --Potguru (talk) 21:04, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

They are not illegal? Theroadislong (talk) 21:08, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Cannabis dispenaries"

This now redirects to Medical Cannabis. Seems this redirect should be deleted now. LaMona (talk) 20:40, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]


This article is being vandalized by user viriditas with no community support.--Potguru (talk) 21:02, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Viriditas continued attacks

Rather than provide any actual evidence that a thing called a "cannabis dispensary" actually exists, the user viriditas continues to modify this page, renaming it at his whim, because he has an opinion about a word that he has yet to back with fact.

First, he tried to remove the article by moving it back to draft space after an editor has approved it's going live.

Second, he renamed the page from the original (marijuana dispensary) to the non-supported name cannabis dispensary. He did this with no reference to back his claim that the article would be better if it were named something different. Suring this page move the user made a comment that people who use the word "marijuana" are racist (backed by the laughable source the "emperor wears no clothes").

Then, when dis-satisfied the page still existed he nominated it for deletion. Currently he is the only person in the community who thinks it should be deleted, 12 think it is a worthwhile article.

Then, he renamed the article, without thinking, making it US centric. (There are marijuana dispensaries all around the world).

Please help me restore the article to it's rightful name space marijuana dispensary a well accepted term in both media and by commoners. --Potguru (talk) 21:22, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Please see Wikipedia:WikiProject Cannabis articles usually use the word cannabis NOT marijuana. 21:26, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry, are you suggesting there is a consensus? I don't see one. "Usually use" is hardly a useful comment given the specif issue at hand. --Potguru (talk) 21:32, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps you should raise the issue at Wikipedia:WikiProject Cannabis then? Theroadislong (talk) 21:37, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm trying to get someone to do something so that the user (abuser) stops editing and moving the page because he feels it should be a way without any known consensus. I am afraid to touch anything because each time I do I get smacked. --Potguru (talk) 21:48, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It would help your cause enormously if you stopped attacking other editors and concentrate on your argument, I am indifferent as to which title is used for the article. Theroadislong (talk) 21:53, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear I am not attacking viriditas, as he did me calling me names. I am attacking his actions. I believe them to be unfounded, unresearched and unbelieveable. You can continue to scold me if you think that will help but I am making a concerted effort to correct what I consider vandalism by a person who has yet to produce any evidence supporting his radical, controversial and unsupported actions. --Potguru (talk) 22:10, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As you can see Viriditas, now polling at 14 to 1 against, is continuing to war with me below. --Potguru (talk) 23:04, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

United States

Article should not be US centric as there are marijuana dispensaries in many countries.

You've been repeatedly informed, both here and on your talk page, that Wikipedia uses reliable sources to write articles. Please visit your local library and look at their database indices. Most public and university libraries now allow you to access these indexes from your home computer, so all you need is a library card number and a password. Otherwise, you can find reliable sources in Google Scholar, Google Books, and newspaper archives. If you find a particular source whose full text is behind a subscription service that your provider doesn't allow you to read, you may request the source at Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange. With their generous help, I have been able to write many articles. Viriditas (talk) 22:34, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ah great, glad your back. As you can clearly see I did not put this in the article but on the talk page while I look for reliable articles. It is interesting that the largest known directory of marijuana dispensaries know to exist on the planet is not considered a reliable source by you. Perhaps you can help me find some good sources that clearly demonstrate marijuana dispensaries exist around the world and not just in the USA as you and Jamie would have us believe. --Potguru (talk) 22:41, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You just asked me a question that I just answered up above. For further help see Wikipedia:Evaluating sources. Viriditas (talk) 22:44, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You didn't answer this question: Perhaps you can help me find some good sources that clearly demonstrate marijuana dispensaries exist around the world and not just in the USA as you and Jamie would have us believe.

I didn't ask you to help me determine what a good source is, I asked you to find some. Not sure why you'd be here otherwise unless you are just here to call me names again. --Potguru (talk) 22:49, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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