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2016 June

New York (state)

New York (state) (talk|edit|history|logs|links|archive|watch) (RM)

The move was closed with no visible weighing of the reasoning behind either supporting or opposing. There was (as I see it) no consensus, and the closer agreed. Then the closer changed her mind, picked a destination, and moved the page. There may well be better arguments for supporting the move than opposing it--but A) that's hardly clear from the discussion, and B) the closer did not seem to point out any of those arguments for the move. There was plenty--plenty--of room for more discussion. With no disrespect at all for the closer, I still propose a relisting. Red Slash 02:45, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • As I said at the beginning of the discussion, I considered three different possible closures. I think the choice between these three closures is within the discretion of the closer. Any of the three closures would cause some editors to be unhappy. SSTflyer 02:52, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Um, if it was at the discretion of the closer or any other one person, there would have been no point in having a discussion. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 02:59, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, given the arguments made in the discussion, any of the three options would be a reasonable closure. SSTflyer 07:46, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, but I think that no consensus and a relisting would have been the best option, otherwise there would be a lot of pushback. Kylo, Rey, & Finn Consortium (talk) 15:22, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Also changing to Overturn. This hasn't gotten anywhere in almost a decade, nor will it. Hatnotes suffice. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 20:52, 25 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm confused by this. You say it was closed hastily because there was no consensus, but then say that's the only reason a RM should be closed prematurely? Regardless, it was closed after the allotted time was up, even if it may have been wise to give it a little longer if only to stifle some of the complaints that are inevitable with a change like this. There was certainly no malicious or duplicitous intent on the part of the closer. Jenks24 (talk) 15:48, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes you're right, however it was finally closed with a supposed "rough consensus" to change the title, even though the discussion was still ongoing and small enough to warrant more time. So only if the discussion was going nowhere and a no consensus close was the final result would it be justified this early. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 16:03, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist. There is no consensus for this move, especially given the short duration of the move discussion and the controversy under which it fell. It should be relisted for more comments, especially since the community is changing a name that has stood for at least a decade. Kylo, Rey, & Finn Consortium (talk) 15:15, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I'm going to put a more thorough and detailed response here in due course, which will likely be along the same lines as Jenks24, that the closure does represent the policy based consensus of the discussion, and that while a relisting would be unlikely to add much more that hasn't already been said, it could provide more closure for people. In the mean time, I should remind people that move discussions, as with other consensus building processes on WP, is not a vote, and the fact that the supports and opposes are split does not mean there is no consensus. If 5 people make reasoned supports, while 5 others post opposes that make no sense, as objectively assessed by a closer, then the supports have the consensus. People should keep that in mind when assessing whether to endorse or overturn this close. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 17:16, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse: the conclusion reached by the closer was logical and based upon analysis of the strengths and weakness of the arguments made on both sides. The debate clearly demonstrated that there was no consensus on what the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of 'New York' should be and it therefore logically follows that the page should be a DAB page given the high profile nature of both the State and the City (as well as other less high profile topics). The decision to apply for a move review is clearly demonstrated by those who misunderstand how consensus works: disagreement does not always mean sticking with the status quo. This is particularly true in in primary topic discussions when a move results in the disputed term being a DAB page which is a neutral position. Ebonelm (talk) 19:09, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No, the move needs to be based on a consensus to move, not based on a consensus that there is no consensus. Also, no consensus, by policy would result in the original name being returned: Link 1, Link 2. I don't know what you're talking about disagreement leading to a so-called neutral position. That's no neutral position, it's what a minority of editors agreed upon and implemented. This is ridiculous. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 19:27, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There is such a thing as negative consensus as well as positive consensus. Just because you didn't like the move doesn't mean you didn't actually contribute to the establishment of the idea that there was a good reason to change the title. You yourself just stated that there was a "consensus that there is no consensus" on what the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC should be, which demonstrates why New York should be a DAB page. This has been a long term dispute (although the title itself has remained stable) about what the primary topic is. WP:TITLECHANGES states that "consensus among editors determines if there does exist a good reason to change the title" this has clearly been demonstrated. As for claiming it was a minority of editors WP:DEMOCRACY clearly demonstrates why just counting participants isn't a valid approach. Ebonelm (talk) 19:58, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No, there was no consensus to move the page, it's as simple as that. I also stated above that I'm perhaps more in favor of the disambig, so consider my relist vote not based on my initial vote but on doing things the right way here. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 20:03, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Closer assessed that there was consensus that New York State is not the primary meaning of New York. Given that, a move was the only valid close. Relisting may change this; I'm skeptical, I think positions are now pretty strongly held and that policy and evidence support this (rough) consensus, but I could be wrong. Andrewa (talk) 20:52, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The closer assessed wrongly, that's why this MR was made. There was no consensus. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 21:05, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
By my reading of the rationale above, the MR was raised to recommend a reopen and relist, in the hope of a clearer result. Andrewa (talk) 21:38, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn (to no consensus).
Firstly, the discussion reads as no consensus. There is a clear absence of consensus support for the status quo, but no case that the status quo is "wrong", and so no imperative to impose a creative solution so as to move on.
Secondly, the close was terrible. Smacking of WP:Supervote, as well as explicit indecisiveness, it conveys an arbitrariness of the result and seriously undermines confidence in the RM process. Another closer could have very easily come to a different result.
Aside, I have a rising concern that the holders of the newly created pagemover permission now no longer feel constrained by the sensible advice of WP:NAC, and are over-easily straying into controversial closes beyond their experience level. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:40, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Please OVERTURN. There is no consensus for this move, which is disastrous to say the least. The status quo with its appropriate hatnotes has served wonderfully for many years. Why the rush to move this page all of a sudden, especially with NO consensus to do so? What bothers me even further is the sneaky and subterfugal manner in which this was done. I, one of the primary editors of this page (never mind where I am actually based), was not even informed about this intention or discussion on my talk page; I found out only after the page had been moved. Clearly this was executed with an agenda, and this is alarming. This move was wrong on many levels and needs to be overturned ASAP. The page should be returned to the title "New York", as has been served well as such for many years. Castncoot (talk) 14:43, 22 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Respectfully, there is no requirement to notify individual editors on their talk pages when a move request is proposed. It's great that you've contributed heavily to this article, on an important topic, so kudos for your efforts, but per WP:OWN, that fact doesn't mean you have a special veto or more right to contribute than anyone else. The move request took place right there on the talk page of the article, so it was hardly "sneaky and subterfugal". Anyway, maybe this will get an extra week or two of listing, and you can put your views at the RM, but if you really think that New York state is a primary topic over New York city, then you'll need to come up with some solid reasons why, or other policy reasons for the status quo. Because "it's always been like this" and "the move is disastrous" don't really stack up as valid reasons I'm afraid, and oppose votes along those lines can't override the existing policy and evidence based consensus as it was closed at the RM. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 15:20, 22 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Respectfully in return, how many people actually look at a Talk page routinely? I, like others, have been busy in real life! Does this mean that I wouldn't have a significant contribution to a discussion about a proposed move? For this to have been carried out over a day or so certainly was sneaky and subterfugal - I'm telling it like it is! At minimum, this process should have taken place over a couple of weeks before moving it. As far as substance, to relegate the highly Wiki-searched entry "New York" to a disambiguation page defies all common sense. Appropriate hatnotes have served very well over the years. "New York City" has its own page, as it should. "New York" has served perfectly well as the state benchmark for years. The article ledes have also accounted for this disambiguation process very well throughout the years. Why should there be a comparison between the two in the first place? The move should be overturned and reopened for a discussion in which many more people are even aware of this discussion. Castncoot (talk) 15:52, 22 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Your arguments would have more credence if they were accurate. The discussion was opened on 9 June and closed on 18 June. The move was then made on 20 June. This is hardly "a day or so". Jenks24 (talk) 16:03, 22 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, unfortunately, nobody gave me the common decency and courtesy of informing me of this discussion, despite my being one of the top editors of this page. Is there a rule that they have to? Of course not. But is that how we really want Wikipedia to operate? Or do we want to get the best possible result, which includes input from both people who have high topic experience as well as from random editors? In my experience, I have routinely been informed on my own Talk page that a significant such discussion is taking place regarding some other page. Therefore, I've been unsuspecting of this situation until after the move was executed. In any case, a very serious mistake has been made with this move, and I believe it needs to be corrected as soon as possible rather than moving in bad faith to etch it in stone. Best, Castncoot (talk) 20:22, 22 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist. I agree that there is no consensus here, and would support a relisting. FWIW I opposed the request, and I definitely disagree with the fact that the move was carried out even after opposition was raised and the closer consented to a relist. Nohomersryan (talk) 18:43, 22 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn to "no consensus." At best, the closer took a simple head count to weigh consensus; at worst, they made a supervote. In either case, i don't believe there was any consensus to move the page. The primary topic argument made by those favoring the request was done so with anecdotal evidence only --no empirical evidence was presented -- and our definition of primary topic is not what first comes to mind. The closer also seemed to ignore the WP:IAR/WP:NOTBROKE arguments made in opposition to the move, assigning them no weight despite the fact that the former is a policy.Calidum ¤ 20:31, 22 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    A simple head count is exactly the opposite of what the closer did. If you just add up votes, it does look like no consensus. But WP:RMCI calls on closers to be much more discerning than that, pick out the policy arguments from the discussion, and give those more weight than WP:IDONTLIKEIT votes. It's telling that not one person seeking to overturn this move has made any sort of argument that New York state is WP:PRIMARYTOPIC over New York city (or if they have, I've missed it, and would appaeciate hearing about it). The support argument was considerably stronger than the oppose argument when cross checking it against policy. And your citation of WP:IAR misrepresents that pillar. If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it is what it says. Keeping New York state at a title which is not supported by our policies, just because we've always done it that way, is rather the opposite of improving or maintaining the encyclopedia.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:54, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That's a gross misrepresentation of what the prevailing argument in opposition to the move was. The reason why people such as I opposed was that using a prominent hatnote at the state's article meant people had no problem quickly finding the NYC article even if they had searched simply for "New York." Thus, placing the dab page at the base name is not an improvement to the encyclopedia because it doesn't make it easier to find the city article while harder to find the state. Calidum ¤ 17:21, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn as "No consensus". I agree with Caldium. The admin seems to have made a "supervote" I've seen these types of "decisions" play out in the past. Admins come and make up their own mind. not on the merit of the comments. but by the way that they would have "voted" if they had taken part in the discussion. Any number of admins mat have made a different decision, which is why this should be closed as no consensus.--JOJ Hutton 12:08, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Umm... @Amakuru - New York State is a higher-level jurisdiction than New York City, and New York State contains New York City. New York City is one municipality of and within New York State. Thus, your policy argument does not pass the litmus test. This is exactly why high topic experience is important for such a major move, and I'm not convinced the closer had this. This move needs to be overturned in order for Wikipedia's credibility to survive. I am extremely disappointed at the manner in which this was carried out - 1) No consensus whatsoever; 2) lack of informing editors with high topic experience on their Talk page that this was happening; 3) apparent lack of topic experience on the part of the closer himself/herself; and 4) suspicion of possible Supervote execution; Castncoot (talk) 02:01, 24 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • I just noticed now that the number of page views for this article has dropped to less than 4K per day, compared to 8-10K per day average with the previous title, before the move. I plead emergently to the administrator who closed this discussion to revert the page title to its original "New York" form immediately while continuing this re-opened discussion. Obviously this move has been extremely deleterious and has caused and is continuing to cause great and ongoing harm to the article, an obviously unintended consequence. The reason the number of page views has dropped so dramatically is that typing in "new york" takes one (ludicrously and unjustifiably) to a disambiguation page, where the reader gets hung up for one reason or another. This is unjustified and needs to be reverted immediately while this discussion is continuing, to stop the ongoing harm to the article and the gross disservice to Wikipedia readers who were beautifully directed all of these years to the correct New York State and City articles simply with well-written hatnotes and ledes.Please!!! *** Castncoot (talk) 01:33, 25 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Now I see that typing in "New York" or "NY" (i.e. with caps) is redirecting to the State article, but "new york", "ny", or "New york" direct to the dab page. I have requested redirects of these other entities to the State article. These should have no bearing on the ongoing discussion but should stanch some of the bleeding caused by this misguided move. Castncoot (talk) 03:45, 25 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Also here in Wikipedia, New York City is considered one of the Regions of New York. Please see this clearly demarcated on the NYC article underneath the infobox. This move would necessitate changing that as well, which really would be also highly disruptive. This move has been unnecessary and detrimental on many levels. Castncoot (talk) 04:40, 25 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Syrian Civil War (closed)

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