Talk:2020 North Macedonian parliamentary election
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[edit]Adjective "North Macedonian" is so wrong in the title...
Wikipedia should change the title to "2020 Macedonian..." or at least "2020 North Macedonia...", thus respecting the Prespa Agreement. Both would be correct according to the Agreement. In addition, the second option w/o country adjective stands for other countries' election pages, like "2020 Northern Cyprus presidential election", which is not "2020 Northern Cypriot...".— Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.28.87.134 (talk) 11:33, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
- It's not wrong, it's common English. I assume this is BorchePetkovski (talk · contribs) editing as an IP (give their previous obsession with 'respecting the Prespa agreement'). Number 57 10:41, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
- The term North Macedonian is not mentioned at all in the 2018 agreement (although Macedonian is mentioned). The Government of North Macedonia has a media guideline on the agreement in which it states that "North Macedonian" should not be used.[1] Therefore, in this case, the official name of the country, North Macedonia, is inserted in the names of the elections, which is not the only case (for example, there is no article on 2020 American presidential elections, but 2020 United States presidential elections). This agreement (which shapes North Macedonia today, that is why it is important) covers very sensitive topics and is signed under strictly defined principles. One of the principles is to change the official (and constitutional) name of the country, but not the full identity. That is why the use of the adjective "Macedonian" in the agreement is explicitly mentioned. Идеологист (talk) 20:21, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
- What the Prespa agreement or North Macedonian government says is completely irrelevant to how we name articles on Wikipedia. Please note that this topic area is under discretionary sanctions, and editors continuing to flog this dead horse are not likely to be viewed favourably. Number 57 20:27, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
- Okay, that is an ignorant opinion of yours. The Prespa agreement does matter because of the simple reason that it includes solving the famous name issue and some other issues that come from it, including the adjectival form of the country name that is mentioned in the Wikipedia naming convention regarding elections, which you cited. Article 1 (f) explicitly says: "The adjectival reference to the State... shall be in line with the official name of the Second Party or its short name, that is, "of the Republic of North Macedonia" or "of North Macedonia".[2] Therefore, "North Macedonian" is not the adjectival form of the country name of North Macedonia that the Wikipedia naming convention on elections suggests. Идеологист (talk) 20:37, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
- Again: No agreement or government can decide how we name things on Wikipedia. The Czech government wants their country to be called Czechia, but we don't because this isn't common usage. The last editor who kept using the Prespa agreement argument was banned from Macedonia-related articles, so I would strongly suggest dropping the stick on this matter. Number 57 20:49, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
- Using "North Macedonian" makes Wikipedia suggest to its readers that it is widely acceptable and correct to use this as the adjectival form of the country name, further alluding that this is the demonym of North Macedonia. However, when one reads through the Wikipedia editors discussions they understand that "North Macedonian" is not an established term. The section on the adjectival form ends with "Article names, categories, and templates should avoid adjectival use altogether. The use of neutral formulations such as "of North Macedonia", "in North Macedonia," etc. is preferred." We can't use "2020 parliamentary election in North Macedonia" (or maybe we can?), but we can use "2020 North Macedonia parliamentary election", this is already in use, as I already mentioned the example of the US. Knowing what the naming convention says (that adjectival use should be avoided with the use of neutral formulations), I don't understand why do you insist on "North Macedonian" as if that is the established option. Идеологист (talk) 21:10, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
- It is acceptable and 'correct' to use the current term (there is no 'incorrect' term unless it's ungrammatical). It is a widely/commonly used term, as can be seen here. Number 57 21:27, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
- Using "North Macedonian" makes Wikipedia suggest to its readers that it is widely acceptable and correct to use this as the adjectival form of the country name, further alluding that this is the demonym of North Macedonia. However, when one reads through the Wikipedia editors discussions they understand that "North Macedonian" is not an established term. The section on the adjectival form ends with "Article names, categories, and templates should avoid adjectival use altogether. The use of neutral formulations such as "of North Macedonia", "in North Macedonia," etc. is preferred." We can't use "2020 parliamentary election in North Macedonia" (or maybe we can?), but we can use "2020 North Macedonia parliamentary election", this is already in use, as I already mentioned the example of the US. Knowing what the naming convention says (that adjectival use should be avoided with the use of neutral formulations), I don't understand why do you insist on "North Macedonian" as if that is the established option. Идеологист (talk) 21:10, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
- Again: No agreement or government can decide how we name things on Wikipedia. The Czech government wants their country to be called Czechia, but we don't because this isn't common usage. The last editor who kept using the Prespa agreement argument was banned from Macedonia-related articles, so I would strongly suggest dropping the stick on this matter. Number 57 20:49, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
- Okay, that is an ignorant opinion of yours. The Prespa agreement does matter because of the simple reason that it includes solving the famous name issue and some other issues that come from it, including the adjectival form of the country name that is mentioned in the Wikipedia naming convention regarding elections, which you cited. Article 1 (f) explicitly says: "The adjectival reference to the State... shall be in line with the official name of the Second Party or its short name, that is, "of the Republic of North Macedonia" or "of North Macedonia".[2] Therefore, "North Macedonian" is not the adjectival form of the country name of North Macedonia that the Wikipedia naming convention on elections suggests. Идеологист (talk) 20:37, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
- What the Prespa agreement or North Macedonian government says is completely irrelevant to how we name articles on Wikipedia. Please note that this topic area is under discretionary sanctions, and editors continuing to flog this dead horse are not likely to be viewed favourably. Number 57 20:27, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
- The term North Macedonian is not mentioned at all in the 2018 agreement (although Macedonian is mentioned). The Government of North Macedonia has a media guideline on the agreement in which it states that "North Macedonian" should not be used.[1] Therefore, in this case, the official name of the country, North Macedonia, is inserted in the names of the elections, which is not the only case (for example, there is no article on 2020 American presidential elections, but 2020 United States presidential elections). This agreement (which shapes North Macedonia today, that is why it is important) covers very sensitive topics and is signed under strictly defined principles. One of the principles is to change the official (and constitutional) name of the country, but not the full identity. That is why the use of the adjective "Macedonian" in the agreement is explicitly mentioned. Идеологист (talk) 20:21, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
"It's not wrong, it's common English"
No, it is not common English. There is no adjective such as "North Macedonian". Either it should be "Macedonian" or "of North Macedonia". A.ilijevski (talk) 18:15, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
References
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The Prespa agreement & adjectival reference to the State
[edit]The Prespa agreement (see https://www.ekathimerini.com/resources/article-files/aggliko-1.pdf ) ref. Article 1 and 7 forbids the use of 'North MacedoniaN) as adjective. The adjectival reference to the State, its official organs, and other public entities shall be in line with the official name of the Second Party or its short name, that is, “of the Republic of North Macedonia” or “of North Macedonia”. Please also see UNTERM ( https://unterm.un.org/)
ARTICLE 1 d) The terms “Macedonia” and “Macedonian” have the meaning given under Article 7 of this Agreement. f) 'The adjectival reference to the State, its official organs, and other public entities shall be in line with the official name of the Second Party or its short name, that is, “of the Republic of North Macedonia” or “of North Macedonia”. Other adjectival usages, including those referring to private entities and actors, that are not related to the State and public entities, are not established by law and do not enjoy financial support from the State for activities abroad, may be in line with Article 7(3) and (4). The adjectival usage for activities may be in line with Article 7(3) and (4).
ARTICLE 7 1. The Parties acknowledge that their respective understanding of the terms “Macedonia” and “Macedonian” refers to a different historical context and cultural heritage. 2. When reference is made to the First Party, these terms denote not only the area and people of the northern region of the First Party, but also their attributes, as well as the Hellenic civilization, history, culture, and heritage of that region from antiquity to present day. 3. When reference is made to the Second Party, these terms denote its territory, language, people and their attributes, with their own history, culture, and heritage, distinctly different from those referred to under Article 7(2). 4. The Second Party notes that its official language, the Macedonian language, is within the group of South Slavic languages. The Parties note that the official language and other attributes of the Second Party are not related to the ancient Hellenic civilization, history, culture and heritage of th e northern region of the First Party. 5. Nothing in this Agreement is intended to denigrate in any way, or to alter or affect, the usage by the citizens of either Party. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.205.58.172 (talk) 22:23, 24 February 2021 (UTC)