Talk:Dmitry Donskoy

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May 19

Please explain why you removed the RIP date, otherwise someone smart will reinsert it. Mikkalai 20:45, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I added it myself a while ago, but I can't confirm it as reliably as I'd like. You can add it back if you want...do you have a better idea about this than me? Everyking 20:49, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Prince and Grand Prince

It is my understanding that ruling Mosvow only gave Dmitri Donskoi the title Prince, not Grand Prince; this he got from ruling Vladimir. As far as I understand too, and the coverage of this kind of thing isn't great, there were no two Grand Princes in the Khanate ruled zone until Mikhail of Tver is found using the title Grand Prince of Tver in 1375 along side Dmitry Grand Prince of Vladimir. Please enlighten me if I am wrong. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 01:40, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dmitria coins

I was curious if anyone could help explain what these coins say.

I think the left coin says in Church Slavonic ПЕЧАТЬ КNZА ВЛІКАГО ДМІТРІА ("Seal of the grand prince Dmitry"). This is based on how I reconstruct it to modern Russian: печа́ть ("seal, stamp") кн[я]за в[е]ли́каго ("of the great/grand knyaz/prince") Дми́трия ("Dmitry").

Alternate explanations are possible, especially for the second word кня́зя, which uses an N and a Z, which do not exist in the modern Russian Cyrillic alphabet as such, nor does the Dotted I (Cyrillic) (although it does in Belarusian, Ukrainian, Kazakh etc.) which appears twice in the name Dmitria and once in the adjective v[e]likago. It's possible that this is an influence from the Latin script, which does use these letters in this way. Moreover, the phrase великій князь or князь вели́каго was a standard expression for "grand prince" since the 11th century, so this wouldn't have been strange in the late 14th century. The omission of the [я] and [е] could have been for brevity's sake.

One more possibility is казна (kazna, "treasury"), from the the Kypchak Turkic loanword qazna of the same meaning, first attested in the 1389 treaty of Dmitry Donskoy with Vladimir the Bold. Its derivative казначе́й (kaznačéj "treasurer") is used already in the last will of Ivan II of Moscow circa 1358. But then we would still have to explain why the N and Z switched places, still add an omitted [а], and grammatically it would make less sense: ("Seal treasury of the grand Dmitry"). (Sidenote: pre-1918 the genitive singular of великій was still вели́каго instead of modern вели́кого). "Seal of the grand prince Dmitry" makes most sense, with a few Latin-derived letters in Cyrillic and two letters omitted. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:23, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The text on the right coin is harder to discern. The caption claims it says "Khan's name Abdullah (on Arabic language)", but I have reason to doubt that. The caption was also wrong about what the left coin said (so I had to correct it). But there was indeed a khan called Abdallāh (Golden Horde), and this image is used in his article. He reigned from 1361–1370, during the Great Troubles, so his reign was challenged by various other pretenders to the throne at Sarai (city), but for his part, Dmitry Ivanovich of Moscow (whom would later be given the epithet "Donskoy" because of a belief that the Kulikovo battle was fought near the river Don, although actually we do not know) appears to have sworn allegiance to this contender at some time of the Golden Horde's war of succession. According to Martin 2007, p. 230, in 1362 Dmitry Ivanovich of Moscow obtained a patent (jarlig) for the title of grand prince of Vladimir from some khan-contender at Sarai, which could have been Kildi Beg, Murad (Golden Horde), or Khayr Pulad. With that khan's authority, Dmitry Ivanovich ousted Dmitry Konstantinovich of Novgorod-Suzdal from the city of Vladimir in the winter of 1362/3. But in 1361, warlord Mamai in Crimea had already proclaimed Abdallāh (Golden Horde) as the new khan, and attacked and temporarily occupied Sarai in 1362. Although he was soon driven out again, he (or Mamai in Abdallāh's name) appears to have issued a second patent to Dmitry Ivanovich for Vladimirian grand prince, which Dmitry Ivanovich also accepted, thus switching sides to Mamai/Abdallāh in 1363. (The rival khan at Sarai (probably Murad) was understandably angry, and gave the jarlig back to Dmitry Konstantinovich of Novgorod-Suzdal).

This coin, presenting a certain "Dmitry" as grand prince, is therefore probably minted by Dmitry Ivanovich of Moscow after 1363. But, there is a chance that this actually Dmitry Konstantinovich of Novgorod-Suzdal, who previously was allied with apparently Murad, then not anymore (when Murad? gave Ivanovich the jarlig in 1362), and then again with Murad (in 1363). If Konstantinovich was ever allied with Mamai/Abdallāh in between and/or before being allied with Murad, he could have minted this coin, claiming to be "grand prince" and showing off his allegiance with / submission to Abdallāh. Both Dmitries were called "Dmitry" (obviously) and both were claiming to be "grand prince" of Vladimir, and given a jarlig multiple times from competing khan-contenders in the early 1360s. We do not know if this coin belongs to Konstantinovich or Ivanovich.

As it what the coin says in Arabic, I do not know. It could be "Abdullah" or "Abdallāh". If someone knows Arabic, please say so! What I do know is what Martin 2007 p. 237 writes after the Siege of Moscow (1382), after which many Rus' princes such as those of Tver, Novogorod-Suzdal and Moscow immediately submitted to Tokhtamysh. Dmitry Ivanovich similarly acknowledged the khan’s suzerainty and was accorded the grand princely title. Their relationship was reflected on coins struck by Dmitry after 1382 . While he proclaimed his own status with the words “Grand Prince Dmitry Ivanovich” on one side of the coins, he marked the other side with the inscription “Sultan Tokhtamysh: Long may he live.” It's notable that the practice of minting coins with one's own name and claim to grand princedom in Church Slavonic on one side and praise for the khan (in Arabic?) on the other seems a constant in Rus' coinage of the time. It's also interesting that he added "Ivanovich" after 1382, just in case anyone still was confused about whether he was Dmitry Konstantinovich of Novgorod-Suzdal (died 1383) or Dmitry Ivanovich of Moscow (died 1389), as both would continue to claim the grand princely title. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:12, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe @Mellk finds this interesting? I presume you don't know Arabic either, but you could probably verify or refute my interpretation of the Church Slavonic coin. There is a possibility that this coin was minted by Dmitry Konstantinovich or Dmitry Ivanovich. The latter is more likely, but it's difficult to tell. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:32, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]