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Joe Castro

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Syfy has removed Joe Castro completely from its Contestants page, so there's no confirmation at the official site that he was even on the show. We need to cite something in that case, and if he did appear on the show, we should at least cite a specific episode and a timestamp. Otherwise, it simply looks as if someone just added a name as a prank, which has happened often on Wikipedia. Because he was removed from the official site, like becoming a non-person, this isn't an ordinary case. --Tenebrae (talk) 19:45, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We do not need to point out that he is mysteriously absent from the official website. For some reason or another one person in the contestant pool has not been mentioned on the official website. I think it was Jerry from season 2 that never appeared on the official website's list during airing, despite having been in the program for at least 5 episodes (I can't remember off the top of my head). This is just an oversight by NBC Universal and nothing that needs to be read into. A source would be good for Castro, but we do not need to provide two sources, one of which says "Castro is not listed here".—Ryulong (琉竜) 19:47, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You also reverted what reads to me to be WP:CRYSTAL that doesn't belong in an encyclopedia and certainly not in the lead: Given how schedules change and how guests can get edited out of taped shows for myriad reason, it's only encyclopedic to wait until these guests' appearances have aired. And I'd have to note that you seem to revert changes in a way that appears to demonstrated WP:OWN.
The Castro issue I can certainly compromise on, but promoting the show's guest stars in the lead is both unduly promotional and, until they air, WP:CRYSTAL. Why not let some other editors than yourself edit the article in the case of this paragraph? --Tenebrae (talk) 19:53, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That content doesn't violate WP:CRYSTAL. It's a reliable source stating what is going to happen. Everyone in the list is featured in the opening sequence too. This isn't a WP:OWN issue. It's the fact that you're applying policies and guidelines wrong.—Ryulong (琉竜) 20:00, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm applying it wrong? After 70,000 edits, I can say you're entitled to your opinion, but it is only your opinion. I would say your interpretation is incorrect. Here's why: Schedules change — the show 3 was yanked after two episodes — and shows are sometimes reedited after taping and before airing. I'm not sure what the harm is in being as scrupulous and encyclopedic as possible, and waiting until something concrete actually occurs. -Tenebrae (talk) 20:03, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I see you're determined to own the article. I understand you're a fan, but putting promotional material in the lead is simply inexcusable. I'd like to see other editors weigh in on this. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:05, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've found multiple reliable sources that state that these celebrities will appear as guests throughout the show. The season's opening sequence even includes them. I think we need to use a bit of Occam's razor and assume that the show is not going to be pulled or things that they feature in the opening credit role are not going to change. I seriously doubt that a show seeking to get ratings would cut out content from celebrities such as Kevin Smith or Laila Ali (not to mention Astin and Wood have already made their appearances in the first episode, so by removing that content you are removing reliablysourced information to two sources). Also, that Horror News site you used to cite Castro's presence is probably not a reliable source anyway.—Ryulong (琉竜) 20:08, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not unless the celebrity asked to be removed or died in the interim or many other reasons that have actually happened in real life. That is why it is WP:CRYSTAL in addition to being promotional.

In any case, I've changed two words in a way that I think splits the difference over the WP:CRYSTAL issue and I hope illuminates my exact meaning. It's still violating WP:LEAD though: The lead should be a summary of the article's most important points, and not contain material found nowhere else in the article. Would you agree to at least adhere to that guideline and move that paragraph to the article body? --Tenebrae (talk) 20:13, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Occam's razor, again. And I guess we can split off the second and third paragraphs in the lead into a "Production" section (and whatever casting material might be in the rest of the lede). It's honestly just how the page originally was formatted when there was only one season, and then how we kept the formatting with the season 2 airing.—Ryulong (琉竜) 20:14, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure how "pick the simplest explanation" applies to following or not following WP:LEAD guidelines. But, yes, I think that would be a fair enough compromise and would adhere to the guideline. Would you like to do that for season 3 and I'll do it for season 2? --Tenebrae (talk) 20:19, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That was to the "Unless the person asks to leave" bit. And it'd probably be best if you did it. I'm getting hit by Isaac down here and I don't know how long my Internet will be up again.—Ryulong (琉竜) 20:22, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Holy cow. I lived through flooding and power outages with Irene last year. Please let me offer the hope that the hurricane misses your area and that you stay safe and sound. Our disagreement aside, you by all indications are a long-experienced, devoted and responsible editor, and I wish you only the best. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:31, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's only like the outer edge but my Internet went out earlier in the afternoon for like 20 minutes. I've been through Katrina, Rita, and Wilma, so this is just a kinda crappy wet season day now.—Ryulong (琉竜) 20:47, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Mention

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There is at least a mention of Joe (without last name) in the official episode description at http://www.syfy.com/faceoff/episodes/season/3/episode/301/a_force_to_be_reckoned_with . And maybe http://horrornews.net/56139/face-off-season-3-begins-fx-artist-joe-castro-hits-the-road/ and *maybe* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QT-7HBnX6CM (Joe tries to get a copy of his contract) (not sure what he could do if he got it)Naraht (talk) 05:39, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Horrornews and YouTube aren't reliable sources though.—Ryulong (琉竜) 06:02, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Youtube, I agree, I just thought some people might want to see that. The other as a report of what *did* happen should be OK, I think. (I wouldn't trust it as a what *will* happen on the show)Naraht (talk) 10:11, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Guest Judges

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I think we should have it as a section like in Season 2 and in regards to WP:Crystal, perhaps. "Guest Judges scheduled to appear are..." Also, with already taped episodes, I can't figure out *what* would cause them to drop someone. Naraht (talk) 05:41, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's happened with shows where the person or someone related to the person dies, including recently with one of the Real Housewives shows. There have been other circumstances, such as a person for whatever reason pulling permission to use their footage. This stuff is rare, but it does happen, and since we're an encyclopedia and not trying to be newsy, there's no reason not to wait and have only the most concrete, unimpeachable, dare one say encyclopedic information. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:07, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If they're putting these people in all of their promotional materials, then I don't think we have to worry about these things. Last season, people were added after they were mentioned in TV Guide. This season they're all in the pre-show press release.—Ryulong (琉竜) 20:12, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Controversy

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Should we include a section about the new addition of allowing the viewing public to choose the winner and how it was poorly received?--TheDevin13 (talk) 02:28, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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