Talk:First Colonial High School

Parent of underage student

Do not post personally identifiable information of currently enrolled students who are juviniles. It is potentially dangerous, and parents don't want this. The school probably doesn't want this either. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Njrotcparent (talk • contribs) 20:41, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Notable is the invitation on our alma mater's Facebook® page to edit it as can only be done on WP.

@Donner60: Can you enlighten me as to the real reason for the reversion on the First Colonial High School page? There is a very clear invitation on the sister FB page, limiting alumni edits on FB to WP. It is inappropriate for WP to govern content on FB. You will note the said invitation in the image I've linked here.

If the real reason you do not wish alumni to identify themselves (all of us are adults, incidentally, by definition), is because of storage and bandwidth issues (and I suspect it is, having had numerous discussions with the creative commons admins), then you should just say so.

This section was not subtitled "Notable Alumni" WP:BIO We already have Mark Ruffalo in that section. So WP:BIO doesn't apply.

And, beyond that, if it's proof you need... neutral and all that NPOV stuff, it is proof you shall have. (I resent your implication of vandalism by appending WP:TW to justify your rollback.)

Now, for a little... WP:NPOV [WP:NVNF] WP:INTREF sourcing...

First, there's an (unofficial) list of my own Class members.

Then, there's the list in pdf format of the scanned pages of my class from the official FCHS 1997 Alumni Directory, shown here. We refer to the list, fondly, as the "Toilet Paper List."

Then, there's the irrefutable yearbook, itself. Look closely at the bottom of this page, and you'll be able to see me... albeit 36 years ago. President of the School's What? National HONOR Society...? Oh, you know who they are... the people who are, um, I dunno, uh... honorable? And here is the cover of the reliable secondary neutral source. And here is the first proof positive page you seek... And here is the second, indicating publication by Hunter Publishing, Winston-Salem, NC. Oh lookie, I believe I am on the staff!

While this may not be a scholarly article, nor one, even meriting notable mention as an academic paper. By WP's own admission in numerous places, WP:WINARS WP:VER etc., not to mention the unimportant rating of this article's stub class... it seems clear to me you didn't even try to search for any proof of reliable sources.

Now... @Bgwhite:. Whatever am I going to do with you WP competing Admins? Please read the notice to Donner60 about kidnapping our school's page on FB. (I though user space and domain name squatting was made a violation of federal law about 13 years ago. Am I wrong?)

Dr. Hogendobler Dr. Hoo (talk) 09:44, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

I am undoing the edits so I may (1) copy the code and (2) add the citations. I am NOT undoing the edits to be defiant. Thanks... Dr. Hoo (talk) 09:46, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

FYI: http://www.firstcolonialhs.vbschools.com/aup.htm Dr. Hoo (talk) 09:51, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

OK, I am done undoing. Please advise next time before you do anything like that. And please undo your stranglehold on our FB page. Does FB know you're rewriting their edit policies? Dr. Hoo (talk) 10:17, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

• Hello Dr. Hoo. One problem with the alumni listing is that Wikipedia requires all named Alumni to be "Notable", which basically means here, that they must already have a Wikipedia article about them in order to be listed. This is not "nanny state behavior", but rather the policy of Wikipedia. See the aptly-named WP:ALUMNI for the policy on including Alumni. Lastly, the Facebook Page you linked mentions Wikipedia as it seems the creator of that page used content from here, which is fine. Yes, it does say "Edit on Wikipedia", which is an invitation to anyone to make useful contributions to the page (for example, did you notice that the opening sentence is a run-on-sentence?). As with any page, edits must be in alignment with policies, and in this case, alumni listing themselves goes counter to that. Electric Wombat (talk) 10:25, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

• • Hello @Electric Wombat: and thank you for your kind and actually meaningful reply. So, I get the alumni thing. I don't get the link to FB. It is highly unusual that a page like it is not editable on FB. The invite is not just a courtesy; it's a necessity. Nothing can be edited on that page in FB except on WP. But I did notice that none of my changes on WP resulted in any changes on FB. So it appears to be a spaceholder used to direct people right to WP. Now... you tell me, who benefits from that? A person? FB? or WP? Can you escalate this for me? I'd appreciate it. Matt "Dr. Hoo." Ha. Dr. Hoo (talk) 11:05, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
    • There's really no official link between FB and here. Facebook has an ability to link to Wikipedia articles when the FB page is created. I don't know if that is a dynamic thing, or if it just pulls the content as it appeared when the page was created. The FB page's content is completely out of any Wikipedia control. Whoever owns that particular Facebook profile has control over that page, including the ability to lock the page so nobody can edit it, which appears to be the case here. Electric Wombat (talk) 11:14, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
      • Roger, that. Thanks! Dr. Hoo (talk) 11:16, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks to Electric Wombat for explaining this so well. I left a slightly longer comment in the Copyright section below but I realized that I should put my thanks in this section where you left your comments. Donner60 (talk) 01:31, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Last admin to read Section 2 (and named therein) gets the notable honor of deleting sections 2 and 3...

With my thanks. Don't all jump at once! Thank you all... Dr. Hoo (talk) 11:18, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Copyright

Per, Wikipedia:Copyright FAQ, "The absence of a copyright notice does not mean that a work may be freely used. If in doubt, assume you cannot use it."

Government identities in Virginia have copyright over all their works. Some states don't, such as Washington. If you have your photo taken for a year book, the district owns the copyright to the photo. As the lyrics have been published, it is automatically copyrighted (see Wikipedia:Copyright FAQ#What is copyright?). Only the author can change copyright status or renounce the copyright altogether. The school district has to ask for permission to use the song lyrics and they cannot change copyright status. So, any song lyrics, music, photos or video that have been published in the United States is copyrighted unless published otherwise. Virginia Beach school system follows the same copyright rules as Wikipedia. Section I states, "Because the extent of copyright protection of certain works found on the Internet is unclear, users will make a standard practice of requesting permission from the holder of the work if their use of the material has the potential of being considered an infringement."

The links you gave does not mention copyright. Disclaimer page doesn't mention it. Offsite links page only covers external links found on their webpage. It does not cover external links found on other sites, such as Wikipedia. The about link only says who wrote the song, not the song's copyright status.

Until permission is given by the authors of the song, it cannot be on Wikipedia. The authors must contact Wikipedia personally to grant permission. See Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission for information on how this is done. Bgwhite (talk) 18:27, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, seriously, for taking the time. I made a photographic artwork of it... can I use it? It's my own creation... Dr. Hoo (talk) 20:03, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Barb and Bill died years ago... so you're saying that no one can publish our high school's alma mater? HUH? Dr. Hoo (talk) 20:04, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

The words are still on the image, so you can't. Welcome to the wonderful world of U.S. copyright law where Happy Birthday to You is still copyrighted, even though the authors died in the 1940s. The rule of thumb is anything published or copyrighted after 1927 is locked up. There are exceptions. If Congress hadn't changed the law, then everything from around 1954 and earlier would now be in the public domain. The law is often called the "Mickey Mouse Protection Act" because Disney was throwing money around to pass the law. Mickey Mouse was created in 1928. Now, we have to wait till 2030 for things to start to expire. For works by people, the law states, "copyright would last for the life of the author plus 70 years." My favorite act of stupidity is Martin Luther King's I Have a Dream speech. His kids hold the copyright. Bgwhite (talk) 21:26, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks to Bgwhite and Electric Wombat for their explanations. Wikipedia certainly does not have relationship with Facebook nor does it control what anyone puts on Facebook. So these comments are astounding to me. As is pointed out, the control is coming from somewhere else, not from Wikipedia. Furthermore, Wikipedia has its own notability requirements which must be met and cannot be overlooked just because someone has restricted access to a Facebook page that Wikipedia has no relationship with or control over. Donner60 (talk) 01:21, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

I should add that Mark Ruffalo is notable. If his name was reverted it was either not linked to his article or was caught up in the reversion of some non-notable names added at the same time. Donner60 (talk) 01:24, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

THIS IS A BORING PAGE.

Dr. Hoo (talk) 20:06, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

It's becoming less so by the hour... Dr. Hoo (talk) 21:26, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Work with me people,... Work with me.

Some ideas to shoot down...

1. What if I remove their names (which, you note, is not on the high school's own webpage) -

2. What if I craft it in paper mache', make it into a pinata and take a picture of it so all the words show on the pig's sombrero?

3. What if I were to find the copy Mrs. Owens typed up for me and scan it into a jpg?

How is the school system using it? Is it possible the school now owns the rights or do I slap them with a big lawduit on behalf of the cherubic copyright holders?

Wow. Can you even say publish Mark Ruffalo's name without violating some law...? he's a great guy, by the way. Was a wrestler. ````

Thanks to the other two admins here, too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PresidentistVB (talk • contribs) 21:42, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Hi again! As Donner60 said above, Copyright law is a curious and often nonsensical thing. The examples you mentioned here, would all be considered "derivative works under copyright law. Meaning: you took a copyrighted work (the lyrics) and creatively re-worked them into something else. In these cases you would still be subject to the original copyright, since the purpose of the work is to present the original lyrics.

One would have to contact the school, or the district, to find out who owns the copyright to the lyrics. They may have been donated to the district, already be in the public domain, etc., or it is even possible that the school has been violating the copyright all this time. While it is highly unlikely that anyone will sue them over it (as with Happy Birthday), on Wikipedia all content has to be free and clear, since it is all explicitly permitted for anyone else to use. As you can imagine, whoever holds the copyright might get a little miffed if Wikipedia were to announce that now anyone is free to use them for any purpose, when we never had that right to begin with. Electric Wombat (talk) 16:48, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

THANK YOU! :-) Dr. Hoo (talk) 17:40, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Just a note to say that the copyright explanation was from User:Bgwhite. Credit where credit is due. I just added thanks and a brief comment about the lack of relationship between Facebook and Wikipedia. Donner60 (talk) 02:21, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Ownership of this article and general info on how to edit high school articles

Please understand that this is not the school's article on Wikipedia; rather, it is Wikipedia's article on the school. Simply put, what that means is that current students and alumni have no greater right to edit this article and no greater say in it's content than anyone else. In extremes, which the discussion above is approaching, editors connected with the school as students, faculty or alumni could be said to have a conflict of interest when it comes to this article.

All articles on Wikipedia have their content decided based on consensus. There have been some consensuses already formed about the content of school articles. These have been incorporated into a guideline and can be found at WP:SCH/AG. Among those consensuses are we do not include the lyrics or music of Alma Maters.

I have a considerable amount of experience working on school articles. I will be working on a re-write for this article over the next 15 or so hours. The recent edits for the most part can be termed as WP:SCHOOLCRUFT, so my starting point will be back in April. If the authors of the recent edits would like to talk about the content they would like to see, I will be happy to discuss it with them. Frankly, all I see is an article that was pretty poor just being made larger, not any better. The writing in this article is atrocious. I will be happy to clean up the run-ons, the rotten syntax, etc. Referencing will need to be improved and I am sure there are some content issues still. Please bear in mind that any discussion of content will need to focus on references and Wikipedia policy and guidelines. John from Idegon (talk) 16:37, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

THANK YOU! :-) Dr. Hoo (talk) 17:39, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Ok...I have gotten started. There is now a nearly appropriate athletics section. The only thing that is missing is citations to the state championships. I do not know where to look for that info about a school in Virginia. It is my feeling that the info on clubs should go, as there are several dozen clubs and listing them all would serve little purpose. Listing "some" is an area fraught with difficulty. It is just asking for WP:UNDUE. the lede needs to be written over into style. John from Idegon (talk) 18:43, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Agree re. clubs although there are two I think could be mentioned and are active... let me look into the athletics query and shoot some links/info on those other two outfits. Thanks for doing this. Also, I'll see what the school board or admin says re alma mater.Dr. Hoo (talk) 20:08, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

I'll pop on here as I find tidbits for you to pull info from... this lists first principal... http://www.vbschools.com/schools/history/high.asp#first Dr. Hoo (talk) 20:28, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

I sent three emails to school system personnel. Dr. Hoo (talk) 21:17, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Dr. Hoo. I am glad you are so enthusiastic, but may I suggest that you kinda take a moment and breathe? If the school admins give you something, it quite possibly might not be usable in the article. See WP:OR. Encyclopedias are tertiary sources. That is to say, the info we used must come from some other published reliable source. Simple factual stuff, like the sports offered, are fine sourced to a primary source such as the school's webpage. But any claim to accomplishment (which we have several already in the article that need referencing) must be referenced to an independent source. It would help if you could find sourcing for those already in the article. Possibly articles in local newspapers (they don't have to be online either. Print is fine; just make sure that we have complete info..the name of the author, the name of the paper, the correct title of the article, the page # it was on and the date it was printed), or if you can check to see if the state athletic sanctioning body has an archive of tournament results. The Newsweek ranking can probably be located using the wayback machine...I'll give it a shot later.

As far as the clubs go, discussing some but not all is fraught with hazards. The ONLY achievements we can discuss are state or national championships, and those need to be reliably and independently sourced. The details of the clubs day to day existence is probably not going to be encyclopedic (in other words, usable). We cannot name individual students (unless they are notable, which in short means that they have a bio on Wikipedia), nor can we name individual faculty members (except the principal or any that are notable). There is a Wikipedia policy called WP:UNDUE, which basically says that coverage amounts has to be fairly distributed and in proportion to the importance of any given activity. So pretty much, we have two choices: There is a comprehensive list on the school's webpage of clubs. I can simply list them all in alphabetical order in a nice pretty format, or we can just not discuss it any further than "There are several extra-curricular clubs and activities for students to participate in." However, we can and should discuss the fine arts classes in their own section. Same restrictions, only state or national championships, no faculty or student names, but we would have a little leeway to include (as an example), the names of the various bands, any big parades they may have marched in (pres. inaugurations, Macy's, Rose Bowl, etc). What we do not need is a bunch of details that may seem very important to the band geeks (and I mean that with much love---I was one in HS) but really isn't interesting to much of anyone else. Similar content for drama, forensics, chorus, and possibly even the visual arts (painting, film, photography, journalism, sculpture). Again, keep in mind that this article is not intended to be a comprehensive source of all available knowledge about the school. It is to be written to provide information that is both interesting and informative to anyone who may be looking for info on First Colonial in the entire English-speaking world. Stuff like what play was done in the spring of 2010, or the name of the marching band's show from 2007 does not fit that bill.

It does not matter what the school board or superintendent or even Obama says about the Alma Mater...it will not be in the article. School article guidelines expressly forbid them as content for US high school articles.

One final thing. This communication on my part is waaaaay too long. Most editors here edit and watch several articles, and in respect of that, we try to keep things short. Oh, and BTW, I am not an administrator and I do not believe anyone else who has responded here is either. I work on a whole bunch of school articles (I am watching nearly 2000 right now), and have earned a reputation for being able to cut through what we call WP:SCHOOLCRUFT and get an article back to being interesting, concise and informative.

As a connected local, the biggest help you can be at this point is to find sources for the athletic achievements and for any academic competition achievements that may exist. Also, a history section is needed. A historical listing of principals would be nice. Info on the arts....At this point, even though we are working out the kinks in this article, it is still the lowest quality classification on Wikipedia, a stub. It cannot move up at all until it has a history section. Glad to see your interest in Wikipedia, fellow editor. Keep up the good work, and happy editing. John from Idegon (talk) 23:33, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

John from Idegon: Thanks for your explanations and contributions. This page now has some good information and explanations that can be useful for other questions or discussions on other pages. Donner60 (talk) 02:26, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

John from Idegon: I only didn't breathe because you gave me a limited amount of time within which to find some answers to your queries. Yes, I lost my breath when I read it===> "over the next 15 or so hours." I agreed with your comments regarding clubs before, and perhaps I was not clear. First Colonial also serves as the "Legal Studies Institute" or something like that. And the band, not to discriminate against the other students who travel to away games, does play at halftimes. I would think it would feel sleighted if teams were mentioned and it was not. (And who can rule out cheerleaders?? HA!) Have a good night, and thank you... and you, too, Donner60, for all you are both doing. Dr. Matt (talk) 07:12, 24 May 2014 (UTC) (nee "Dr. Hoo")Dr. Matt (talk) 07:13, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Cheerleading is usually covered as part of athletics, and the same basic restrictions apply to content about them (and the band too). We don't usually include mundane things. Almost every high school's band marches at halftime of their football games, so that is not something we need to talk about. And unless the cheer squad is a competitive one, there will be nothing to say about them. They are cheerleaders; they cheer. I don't see any reason to include that in the article. John from Idegon (talk) 08:54, 24 May 2014 (UTC)