Talk:Great Eleusinian Relief

"Namely, it has been noted that the right figure is dressed more lightly like a maiden, whereas the right figure sports the rich garments suitable for an older woman."

This is such a ridiculous theory that it shouldn't even be noted on this entry. We don't need to include every absurd half-baked academic interpretation just because some academic wanted to make a name for himself contending that which is obvious to everyone else. 158.222.134.68 (talk) 20:16, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Anachronistic Reference to Corn in the Great Eleusinian Relief

"The goddess on the left is dressed in a leg-length sleeveless chiton and himation (a type of cloak), holds a sceptre in her left hand, while with her right one she hands Triptolemus some unidentified object made of copper, probably ears of corn."

This statement is problematic because it suggests that the unidentified object is "probably ears of corn." However, corn—more accurately referred to as maize—was not known in the ancient Mediterranean or anywhere in Eurasia for that matter. Maize is native to the Americas and was introduced to Europe only after 1493, following Christopher Columbus’s first voyage to the Caribbean. Before this introduction, Europeans had no knowledge of maize, making it highly unlikely that it would appear in a relief from Ancient Greece dated circa 430-420 BCE.

The claim is cited to two sources, one from 1890 and another from 2007, both in Greek. As I do not speak Greek, I cannot verify whether these sources explicitly suggest that the object in question is likely maize. However, if this interpretation originates from these sources, it would still reflect an anachronistic misunderstanding rather than a historically plausible explanation. I suggest clarifying or revising this statement to avoid perpetuating a demonstrably inaccurate claim. mesropj (talk) 12:29, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Follow-Up: Verification of Sources Regarding Object in the Relief

Following my initial post about the anachronistic claim that the (now missing) object handed to Triptolemus in the Great Eleusinian Relief is “probably ears of corn,” I consulted a Greek-speaking colleague to verify the 2007 source cited in the article. They confirmed that the source does not mention corn (maize) at all. Instead, it describes the goddess as holding in her hands “a fruit and a flower” ("να κρατάει στα χέρια της καρπό και άνθος" in Greek).

This directly contradicts the current article text and further supports the historical fact that maize was unknown in the ancient Mediterranean.

Although I prioritized verifying the 2007 source—as it represents more recent scholarship—I have not yet been able to review the 1890 Greek language source. Given its age, it is possible that this older interpretation introduced the misconception. If anyone has access to the 1890 source and is fluent in Greek, it would be helpful to confirm whether it explicitly mentions corn or provides a different description of the object.

For now, I will go ahead and edit the article to remove the anachronistic reference to corn and replace it with the description from the 2007 source. I welcome any further input or corrections based on additional verifications. mesropj (talk) 21:35, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the effort, @Mesropj. I don't know if a source mentioning "fruit and flower" or "corn" (presumably, "grain") would be attempting or achieving particular scholarly specificity. That tuliplike shape strikes me as maybe even self-consciously symbolic like our fleur-de-lis. The item on the goddess's staff has relatives probably all about, certainly in Egypt as in hieroglyphs (mostly alternates of others like closed or opening lotuses} M8A, M9A, M25-7, M69A.

Temerarius (talk) 03:05, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

@Temerarius, I entirely agree about the lack of specificity—it's all merely conjecture since the object is lost. To convey that ambiguity, the wording I chose is, "described in one source as a fruit and a flower." If you have any editorial suggestions, please don't hesitate to express them or to further refine the text. My primary goal was to remove the anachronism of mentioning corn within the context of the Classical period of ancient Greece. mesropj (talk) 03:58, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Wait a minute, I gotta see more pictures of this thing. I wasn't even looking close enough. You're talking her right hand? That's really hard to say. First thing it looks like to me is a flail, look at the angle of the handle and drape of the tail. If you imagine the negative space there is something the shape of a slice of pizza, you'll see how unnatural her hand would be if that were positive space/an object other than--it looks like fingering a guitar neck, in that case, which is an unnatural position for your hand to hold on anything not a guitar. Anyway, that part is uniquely recessed instead of high relief, so it may have been an inlay point for a flail or artistic model of one, if a flail it was.

However, the replicas don't seem aware of anything like this. The replica in Eleusis, it looks like she's holding a big cone shape. It would make sense if the figures are assembling something like the thyrsus. But the shape seems to be a phantom from the shape of her arm with the big crack in the block, which all the replicas and the sketch include. That's odd, was it cracked immediately upon manufacture? The way the Roman copy seems to split the difference, and seems not to comprehend what she's holding, makes me wonder about the provenance. Look at the stuttering, chunky draping on the Roman one. Like a copy in bad ivory. And look at the feet and faces, far behind in grace and dignity. It's so inferior.

Temerarius (talk) 05:33, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

It's impossible to have any sort of certainty in cases like this, as anything we imagine—no matter how likely or perceptive—is only conjecture. The existing cited source (page 310-311) describes the missing object in Demeter's right hand as "a fruit and a flower" in Greek ("να κρατάει στα χέρια της καρπό και άνθος"). I interpret that to be a symbolic description of the lost object, conveying that it's the gift of agriculture, which is consistent with one of the central myths of Eleusinian Mysteries. In the Eleusinian Mysteries Wikipedia article, the same relief is described as, "Triptolemus receiving wheat sheaves from Demeter and blessings from Persephone."

In editing the article, I erred on the side of capturing the wording as it appears in the source, which was already cited in the Great Eleusinian Relief Wikipedia article. As I had suspected, the source has absolutely no mention of corn/maize. Although I was expecting the source to instead mention wheat or grain, according to the translation I received from a fluent Greek speaker, it is described rather vaguely as "a fruit and a flower" and I didn't want to editorialize any further. But yes, I agree with all your points, especially that the replicas are of poorer quality, which is a shame as they are not as eliminating as higher quality replicas would have been. mesropj (talk) 22:01, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

I think you both are overlooking the very obvious fact that "corn" in the older English usage, which likely found its way into academic translations, did not refer to maize. Corn in this context means "any sort of grain" or principal grain of the region. It is consistent with the scholarship surrounding this piece to keep "ears of corn" as a descriptive feature, but given the fact that you both seem to have missed this subtlety despite being practiced Wikipedia editors, maybe there should be some clarification to avoid this ambiguity. No offense!

Overall, I argue that there is no point in mentioning what the object Demeter held could have been. Nobody knows and we may likely never know. However, there is a remarkable parallel in a Boeotian skyphos, revealed in a 1899 publication by Otto Rubensohn. This was discussed at length by Jane Ellen Harrison as well. I will attach the link below to a digital copy, the skyphos is found on page 500. Because of this parallel, I think the probability that it was ears of corn (grain) is very likely. However, it is up to you guys whether you want this mentioned, but I strongly urge against any sort of speculation. Far more interesting is the variety of different scholarly theories as to who this boy-youth is because nothing about it suggests it is Triptolemus, other than the general mythology surrounding this Eleusinian event, which has countless different renditions with different characters. The Homeric Hymn to Demeter mentions four other people, including Eumolpus (who Evelyn B. Harrison theorizes is the true identity of the boy), who receives the agricultural teaching.

https://hdl.handle.net/2027/uiuc.1665600v24 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.30.91.190 (talk) 22:24, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

You're wrong. I said that in the very first line: "I don't know if a source mentioning "fruit and flower" or "corn" (presumably, "grain") would be attempting or achieving particular scholarly specificity."

Temerarius (talk) Temerarius (talk) 04:37, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

108.30.91.190: "No offense!" Me: Don't do this again. If you want to call me out, read what I wrote. And it's bad form to hide behind an IP when trying to correct people.

Temerarius (talk) 04:41, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Here's an easy / backup link to the image IP mentioned

Temerarius (talk) 22:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)