Talk:Hip-hop culture/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Archive 6

Mainstream & Underground Hip Hop Culture: Why Both Matter Equally

PLEASE READ AND CONTRIBUTE INFO ON THE FOLLOWING. THANKS!

Mainstream Hip Hop: It's EFFECT on Mass Culture

Mainstream hip hop culture has been assumed to have a wider mass effect on the global culture. I noticed in this article that is says that this has been a mostly positive effect, which is arguable. We should keep this point neutral and point out the opinions of at least two researchers with opposing viewpoints.

Underground Hip Hop: Wider Scope of Cultural REPRESENTATION

Since underground hip hop is more representative of different locales and even subcultures WITHIN those locals, underground hip hop provides a better lense for showing the vast diversity of various cultural and subcultural groups in various cities through-out the world. This is especially important to demonstrate since there are those who claim that [mainstream] rap has shed Blacks and Latinos in a negative way by mostly marketing the highly profitable of the genre known as "Gangsta rap" which focuses on violence, drugs, and sex. And while there can be an organic place for this in regards to REPRESENTATION of certain areas, much of this has been arguably distorted, exaggerated, and perhaps even glamorized by the commercial mainstream industry. To fully REPRESENT the depth and variety of hip hop culture, as much weight should be attributed to the cultural representation of underground hip hop as the cultural effect of the commercial rap industry.

To do this, we need to find research done by different people - from several different cities, representing the early 80s-today, and representing people of different ethnicities, religious beliefs, genders, and sexual orientations. Although the queer genre of hip hop is small in scope (at least to my knowledge), there is an emerging gay hip hop scene in New York, there is a trio (named Las Krudas Cubens) of Cuban,feminist, openly queer, & female emcees in Cuba who address both feminism & GLBTQ rights in their music. There is also a group of black rappers in the U.K. called "Yo Majesty" who address queer rights, plus a gay rapper out of New Orleans named Big Freedia with sexually expressive gay lyrics. I need to find the names of the gay rappers out of New York I've seen, or find a reporter who's written either about the gay hip hop scene in New York or on a broader scale (hopefully this has been covered).

More important than the names is the cultural representation of these rappers. Also, Wikepdia has a thing about the "notability" of various artists, but within regards to representation of various subcultural groups including females, feminists/political female rappers, "conscious" rappers in general, and gay rappers - we should be able to make a case for mentioning some of these groups within this article, so long as these artists are verifiable & the info on them is verifiable & from a reliable source/researcher/journalist.

I will look up sources for these in the upcoming weeks. Any help with this would be appreciated - so please post links to journal articles, publications, interviews, etc. covering any of the above mentioned topics, as well as sharing any info you have about different underground rappers in regards to various cities, different eras (i.e. 80s, 90s, 00s, & currently), various subcultures, etc.

• • • Sylvia Blossom (talk) 16:00, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Rename article

I suggest that this article gets renamed "Hip hop culture". When people say "hip hop", they are normally talking about the music, not the culture. I suggest that when "hip hop" is searched, it should lead to the disambiguation page, which has links to both Hip hop culture and Hip hop music. Having this article, which is about hip hop culture, titled "Hip hop" alone is misleading as it would be to have the article about Punk subculture entitled simply "Punk". Matthew Fennell (talk) 23:22, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Support..I think you should mention this at the Hip hop Wikiproject before any move happens though! they seem to have talk about it a bit..Buzzzsherman (talk) 23:41, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

"'Support"' - I'd say go ahead and be bold. ClovisPt (talk) 23:35, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Support - when I first came to this article it took me some time to work out where the music was, this would help solve that problem.--SabreBD (talk) 06:43, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Strong Oppose - Hip-Hop music is a sub element of Hip-Hop culture... b-boying and graffiti came before the music. With Punk it's different because the music is the main thing and the culture is secondary, but in Hip-Hop it is the other way around, hence why Hip-Hop leads you to the page where all the elements can be found. Crateescape101 (talk) 09:58, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Support and comment - B-boying and graffiti originated in inner-city urban culture, as did rapping and hip hop. Yonskii (talk) 23:58, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Support I agree with your reasoning. // Gbern3 (talk) 07:48, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Suport"" While some may feel or be aware that "hip hop" is a reference to the culture, it needs to be explicit for those of us who don't understand that. Given that this article is for the international community (for those that can read English or have it translated anyway), it needs to be immediately apparent that this article is about the "culture" of hip hop SPECIFICALLY. It cannot be assumed that readers will know that. I personally found it confusing that there were two different articles, this one called "Hip Hop" and another called "Hip Hop Music". And I'm tired, reading with one eye closed, and skimming for key words, so it's easy to miss stuff.

Sylvia Blossom (talk) 18:52, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Has anyone mentioned this proposed name change at the hip hop wikiproject page? What I am seeing above is more support for the name change to "Hip Hop Culture" but it has not been changed. If no one else weighs in on this matter in the near future, I plan to go ahead and change the name as this is a simple change & one that will be helpful to readers.

• • • Sylvia Blossom (talk) 16:56, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Additional Articles, Reports, Books, & Other Written Documents for Consideration - Please Add More!

Written Research (articles, reports, books, & other written documents) To Consider for Inclusion

Please add additional links below for written sources that you believe should be consulted/sourced in this article.

1. JOURNAL ARTICLE ON BLACK FEMINISMS & HIP HOP (35 pages): "Under Construction": Identifying Foundations of Hip-Hop Feminism and Exploring Bridges between Black Second-Wave and Hip-Hop Feminisms by Whitney A. Peoples; Publication from Project Muse: Scholarly Journals Online; named after Emcee Missy Elliot's 4th Album: https://umdrive.memphis.edu/ajohnsn6/rhetoric%20of%20hip%20hop/under%20construction.pdf Sylvia Blossom (talk) 17:10, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

2.REPORT ON MAINSTREAM RAP & THE WHITE-MALE DOMINATED MUSIC INDUSTRY Has Black Music Souled Out?: Capitalism, Commodification, and Colonialism by Monique Charles (Graduate Student), Publication from www.Acedemia.Edu http://www.academia.edu/694687/Has_Black_Music_Souled_Out_Capitalism_Commodification_Colonialism This may be considered "fringe research"; however the white male power structure has been well documented by many social scientists and this report is in regards to hip hop specifically, so it may be justifiable to include. Too see more explanation on my reasoning for inclusion, see the topics "Films" & "Commercialization". I feel it would be appropriate to add this to the section on commercialization and/or controversy within the Wikipedia article.Sylvia Blossom (talk) 17:27, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

3. BOOK ON HISTORY OF HIP HOP The VIBE History of Hip Hop, Edited by Alan Light, Three Rivers Press, 1999, VIBE Ventures I see this is already listed in the bibliography, but I am also adding it here so I can remember to reference info from it here - specifically in regards to the cultural contributions of female emcees, plus any other culturally relevant info in there that would help expand this article (without giving any topic undue weight of course). Also any cultural impacts the book suggests, including impacts on women and the impacts on men's perceptions of women (not sure if that's mentioned in this article already but somehow I doubt it). Sylvia Blossom (talk) 18:22, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Hip Hop Films

Hip Hop Films Illustrating the Lifestyle From Which it Was Born I edited the Hip-Hop Media section of the talk page by contributing some films that illustrate the lifestyle from which hip-hop was born. "Boyz in the Hood", and "Menace to Society" were among these. I also labeled some movies that focus on the lives on individual rappers and hip-hop stars; such as, "Get Rich Or Die Tryin'", and "Notorious". If there are any other movies that illustrate the point of the Hip-Hop Media category, then please share! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bman8420 (talk • contribs) 17:38, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

'Bamboozled by Spike Lee': Fictional Film Comparing a Musician Who Compares His Expected Role on a TV Network to Minstrel Shows I recommend mentioning the movie "Bamboozled" by Spike Lee, which has it's own article on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamboozled. It's a fictional movie about a racist white male who runs a TV studio; Mos Def is an actor in the film; the television studio has a live band program & Mos Def is part of an "underground militant rap group" who is upset about the program. See paragraph 3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamboozled Sylvia Blossom (talk) 15:50, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

'Hip-Hop: Beyond Beats and Rhymes (2006)' - Misogyny & Violence in [Mainstream] Hip Hop Another one for the documentary category is "Hip-Hop: Beyond Beats and Rhymes (2006)" which takes a critical look at the misogyny in mainstream rap: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip-Hop:_Beyond_Beats_and_Rhymes . I must say though that the documentary doesn't mention the different kinds of rap and the history of hip hop; it sort of represents all of it as misogynistic, violent music. The film does talk however about how the majority of kids listening to the (gangsta rap) music are white suburban males; so it feeds them a stereotype of the black community in the U.S. that is extremely unhealthy & extremely simplistic. So it's easy to see how it could play into the fears that many white men have of black males. I think that might be a possibility that the film proposes ..... (a point that I personally find very plausible; nor do I trust the owners of the mainstream record company - but that can get into the area of "conspiracy theory", so certainly not an opinion worth mentioning, unless to note that a big name out there has proposed the same idea; & I think Spike Lee's movie Bamboozled kind of hints at that possibility, even though it's fictional & it's about a television network, not a recording studio, but there is the TV show about the live band program on there. I just can't remember if it's just the TV network wanting to make a lot of money or if on top of that he's wanting to portray black men in a very bad light, kind of like the old minstrel shows). Sylvia Blossom (talk) 16:10, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

"Has Black Music Souled Out? Capitalism, Commodification, Colonialism" is an article I found by Monique Charles. http://www.academia.edu/694687/Has_Black_Music_Souled_Out_Capitalism_Commodification_Colonialism Are White-Owned & Controlled Record Companies Exploiting Blacks & Marketing a Black Image that is Primarily Violent & Hyper-sexual? In regards to the subject I mentioned above, that the mainstream recording studios in the United States (mostly owned & controlled by white males) would want to put forth an exploitative image - that is to "create" an image of blackness for the public, I found a paper by a graduate student who studied that - and she especially studied the hip hop genre & her readings supported that thesis. You may want to take a look at this (see above). I noticed that someone mentioned "conscious" music as not being a large enough genre to warrant inclusion in this article, but it is important to note that the mainstream music industry solicits SPECIFIC music (in regards to lyrics & sound) that's "sellable" along with a certain image - especially for females (as in sexy as h*ll) - and not only that, but the industry may want to promote an image in society of Blacks (and Latinos for that matter) that are hyper-violent & hyper-sexual. Perhaps that's too make excuses for putting approximately 30% of black males in prison, for the racial profiling by police, as a scapegoat for increased street violence (someone to blame). Never mind that the CIA in the past (allegedly) planted drugs in certain neighborhoods and funded gang warfare between the crips and bloods (http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/c/cockburn-white.html; this is controversial & the theory was allegedly debunked) - never mind because that's all in the past (right?) and no one remembers that or somehow they didn't learn that in the public schools. Never mind that some people can hardly afford to eat & may lack shelter and may get into prostitution or drug selling to support themselves when unable to get a job in the competitive workforce and never-mind that the police will respond slowly, if at all, in some black and Latino neighborhoods. As for the young rappers who work for these industries, well they need money themselves to live, but then we're also being sold this idea that we should pursue wealth - an awesome car & gold jewelry - to get the ladies. This all still falls into the "opinion" area but in a discussion of the rap industry and mainstream vs. alternative music, it's really important to point out that there are academics out there who are critical and even suspicious of the music industry. Oh, and I just read that there's still an estimated 5000 KKK members in the U.S. today. And I honestly can't help from wondering what stocks in record labels any of them might own, or who they're friends with, and whatnot. Because I would imagine that some of them are wealthy and trying to protect their place of economic privilege in society..... Furthermore, there has been increasing consolidation of the media, so what happened to the anti-misogyny mainstream female rappers in the early 90s? Well, that would interfere will the overly successful sales of mainstream misogynistic rappers - which the public was devouring delightfully. People were loving that sh*t! So that last part is most definitely just my own opinion and not worth mentioning in the article, but mentioning that there are those in academia who are critical and suspicious of the music industry & a brief explanation of what they have to say, is important. Sylvia Blossom (talk) 18:06, 4 June 2013 (UTC)Sylvia Blossom (talk) 21:45, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

The above mentioned article IS controversial in regards to the opinions stated by the researcher vs. mainstream society, however one cannot discuss the effect of hip hop culture without discussing issues of racism, and while mainstream America may not believe in a "white power structure", arguments and evidence for this has been well documented by social scientists, and in regards to hip hop SPECIFICALLY, this report addresses racism and the white power structure in regards to hip hop specifically. It must be further understood that social scientists distinguish between "numerical minorities" vs. "minorities" in terms of power and status, so mention of this article is arguably justifiable in terms of a researcher discussing to the issue of racism within mainstream rap controlled by a white-male dominated profit-driven music industry. Since this section is about films, I will be adding another section titled "Additional articles, reports, & books" on the talk page with a link to this report as well as others.*** Sylvia Blossom (talk) 16:49, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Giuliani Time: Not a Hip Hop Film, But Police Did Take Action Against Street Artist & Street Musicians in New York in the 1990s We Need to Examine Other Possible Factors that Affected Hip Hop Music and Hip Hop Culture Besides the Mainstream Media

• This film was strongly biased against the actions of Giuliani during his term as mayor in New York, which started in 1994. However the film does accurately explain the mayor's decision to make street art & music illegal and strongly enforce that with police action (though the film is strongly against this policy). This is also included in the Wikipedia article on Giuliani without the strong bias. A synopsis of the film on the IMDB database only touches briefly on the street art action, and the Wikipedia article on the documentary is also weak in regards to content. I would be curious to know how this specifically changed the underground hip hop scene in New York. Similar policies have also been imposed in other cities in the U.S. If a credible researcher has written a report including details specifically related to hip hop in New York & Giuliani's policies (ideally explaining a variety of opinions on that - of academics, the New York public, & New York opinion writers), that would definitely be a topic worth mentioning on the Wikipage.

We Should Ideally Find Other Sources Discussing Other Possible Factors Influencing Hip Hop Culture Any other possible factors that have been documented that may have affected hip hop culture besides mainstream rap & (i.e. education, churches, popular opinion personalities (radio, TV, etc.) would also be helpful to point out. Addressing these in regards to what is labeled as "hip hop" internationally (including mainstream, alternative, and underground) would be challenging - but if anyone has written about this in regards to New York, the U.S., and the International Community - well that would be EXCELLENT. ===== Does Anyone Out There Have Any Information on Other Possible Factors Affecting Hip Hop Culture? Please Share & Include Links/Sources! Thanks! =====Sylvia Blossom (talk) 14:49, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Two other great hip hop films to add could be Wild Style (1983) directed by Charlie Ahearn and Style Wars (1992) directed by Tony Silver.

Changes to American Society & to "Mostly Positive Impact"

1st Change - should be easy enough - Need Name of Person Making the Quote:

Under History, American Society, the full name of the person stating the quote should be included so it's understood very clearly that Wikipedia isn't making this observation. I say that, because I think that both hip hop and rock n' roll are being stereotyped in this statement, even within mainstream without considering underground hip hop & underground punk. There have been mainstream hip hop & rock n' roll artists that weren't misogynistic or necessarily violent in nature - especially from females, but males too. Salt N' Pepa, TLC, Joan Jett & The Heartbreakers, and The Beatles to name a few (The Beatles is an example of a band that managed to get in some socially conscious songs - even ones critical of America's involvement of the Vietnam War - on to the mainstream airwaves.

Changing Demographics, Increase in Poverty Gap, Multicultural Studies - Possible Influences on Consumer Demand?

On a side note- there's also changing demographics in the U.S. that may impact consumer demand for hip hop, metal, & punk - the society is aging & it is my opinion that older people are more likely to tune into the blues & folk music as opposed to hip hop or punk (so Nina Simone or Bob Dylan as opposed to Kid Cudi or Jello Biafra). Some people don't even want to be challenged at all and opt for romance music or jazz or music that's stylistically folk but not challenging or enlightening. As for young people, I feel that their tastes are fickle and they're always eager for newer, different stuff. I believe the U.S. has gotten past it's "shock & awe" moment in regards to mainstream being exciting to young people for it's swearing and frequent mention of drugs & sex. Don't quote me on any of this, just something to consider in researching the article in regards to reduction in consumer demand. Another possibility is the growing wage gap between the rich and the poor - and the wealthy may not be very interested in rap music except perhaps for exploiting it to maintain wealth and privilege (for example, a predominately white male controlled record industry). A growing number of people living in poverty creates a larger class of people who can't afford to buy much music. I would also wonder how students who have grown up with an increase in multicultural studies feel about hip hop music - whether they see it as positive for it's representation of poverty in low-income urban neighborhoods that are often predominately black and latino, or whether they see it as negative stereotyping, or whether they even care at all. And an academic opinion on this would be good; that is - someone who's looked at the data on this or done some surveys (of sufficient number and quality from different areas) to compile data on this.

Regarding "Positive Impact" - This is a Contested Statement & Needs a Counter Argument to Neutralize it.

In regards to the statement that hip hop has had a mostly "positive impact" that is an opinion that has been challenged, so it should be reworded to sound neutral & include a counter argument. So a quote from someone with something positive to say and a quote from someone of a negative opinion - people who have done research on this. Sylvia Blossom (talk) 17:16, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Female Hip Hop Artists - International - Mainstream & Alternative - ARTICLE NEEDS MORE FEMALE NAMES - Please contribute Names & Information: 80s-Today

Hey all, starting this section. There needs to be a separate section for female hip hop artists. Please contribute names of alternative & mainstream female hip hop artists from 80s-today from around the world, not so obscure as to be non-verifiable, but as long as they have a copyrighted album or appear on a copyrighted compilation (like an underground compilation for example) that should be fine. If they are PART of a hip hop group/collective, please list the name of the group. If anyone wants to say a paragraph about female hip hop artists for each decade or a specific decade (both about mainstream & alternative artists, feminist issues, political artists, etc.) with citations - go for it!

I have listed them according to the DECADE when their recording careers as hip hop artists STARTED (whether singles or albums). Although some started as underground, I listed them under mainstream if they rose to prominence. Some artists fall under multiple genres. Res wasn't listed as a hip hop artist under her solo work but has been doing hip hop with Idle Warship since 2009, so I listed 2009 as the start date.Sylvia Blossom (talk) 23:20, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

This is suggested content for this article. Although there is a list of female rappers on wikipedia, I cannot find a page that discusses female contributions by decade & that examines female contributions in mainstream, underground/alternative, globally, & discussion of socially conscious/feminist/political artists. Those of you that know about the history of female hip hop artists, please write something about the decade & list any names you're aware of on this talk page. Especially anything that has been documented by historians specializing in Women's history! The lack of female emcees and contributions in this article is extremely sad.

• • • • I have started a section for women in Hip-Hop. I was able to write a little but of course there is still so much more that needs to be said. I was also surprised to find no section at all about Female Rappers!!**** — Preceding unsigned comment added by TLCruz (talk • contribs) 20:02, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

I see a few or maybe a couple of female hip hop artists listed in this article, but WHERE is Queen Latifah, MC Lyte, Missy Elliot, Monie Love, & girl groups TLC & Salt-N-Pepa, all who became quite popular in the 1990s?????????? Also, whenever female names are mentioned in the article, like M.I.A., the article should mention them as females, so that readers trying to find info on female hip hop artists/rappers can find them easily. It can't be assumed that people will automatically know who's who on this list. I mean "Queen" & "Missy" are general clues, although "Queen" also commonly refers to drag queens. Sylvia Blossom (talk) 14:01, 4 June 2013 (UTC

Late 1970s

• Lady B (1970s; recorded a rap song 1979 "To the Beat Ya'll"; among the first of the female rappers to record a rap song.

1980s

Mainstream:

• MC Lyte (United States, 1988-x)
• Monie Love (United Kingdom, 1989-x)
• Roxanne Shanté (Career 1984-x); considered to be one of the pioneers in the emerging genre of hip hop, and the first female hip hop artist to gain widespread media attention in the United States.

Alternative:

1990s

Mainstream:

• Da Brat (United States, 1992-x)
• Lil' Kim (United States)
• Lisa "Left Eye" Lopez
• M.I.A. (United Kingdom, 2002-x)
• Monie Love (United States)
• Queen Latifah (United States)
• Salt-N-Pepa (United States girl group)
• Sugababes (United Kingdom)
• TLC (United States)

Alternative:

2000-2009

Mainstream:

Alternative:

2010s

Mainstream:

Alternative:

• Baby Blue
• Estelle (United Kingdom)
• Lady Sovereign
• Misha B (United Kindgom)
• Notorious T (United Kingdom)
• Res (of Idle Warship, 2009-x)
• Rye Rye (Career 2012-present)
• Shystie
• Speech Debelle
• Yo Majesty (United Kingdom)

Check on starting decade and nation for:

• Bahamdia
• Deadly Venoms
• Eve
• Foxy Brown
• Heather B
• J-Pop (Japan)
• Jean Grea
• Floetry
• Nneka
• Queen Pen
• Rah Digga

Check on female rappers name for collective/groups + beginning date of recording career:

• Digable Planets (need name of female rapper, I'll look this up later).

Sylvia Blossom (talk) 22:12, 2 June 2013 (UTC) Sylvia Blossom (talk) 17:35, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Early Female Influences (Pre-Rap) on Styles + Female Rappers Against Misogyny + Other Female Rappers - Through-Out Article Please! See "The Vibe History of Hip Hop".

The book "The Vibe History of Hip Hop" discusses females that were early influences on rap (pre-rap era), including the "Naming Game". It also discusses female rappers that challenged misogyny (in different ways as they had different philosophies) & it discusses female rappers through-out the 90s & 2000s, though I don't believe it discusses any of the alternative/underground female rappers. Sylvia Blossom (talk) 15:53, 18 June 2013 (UTC) I Added Extra Sections in Above List for Early Female Influences Plus 1970s Female Rappers. Lady B is listed above under 1970s. Other early female influences/rappers are coming to mind, but I'll have to take a look at the book again - Millie Jackson comes to mind, plus the co-founder of "Sugarhill Gang Records"; I believe her name is Shirley but I have to look that up. I'll come back to this another day. Any help with this list will be appreciated - you can add directly to the above list. If you care to discuss, just type below this entry. Thanks!Sylvia Blossom (talk) 15:53, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Criticism

in the Criticism section it implies that rockism is just against "black" music genres. From my experience, rockism can be againt any music genre other that Rock-and roll. Some rockists also view country music, techno music, dub step, alternative music, etc. as "bad" music.Zombiedude347 (talk) 20:44, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Etymology

The Wolof origin of "hip" sounds like a total crock of shit. You need a reliable source (or three) for this. 86.187.51.101 (talk) 23:03, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Opinionated

Under the Education section on this page, there is a quote that reads, "Hip hop can have an empowering effect in youths. While exposure to misogyny, violence, and drug use often seen in rap music videos or heard in the lyrics, hip hop displays many positive themes for kids." This is definitely something to review and change, because this does not reflect neutrality. This mainly shows the effects on young men, not young women. Typically young women hear (or don't hear, really) the lack of female voices in this genre. When they see women in music videos, they are put in a submissive stance where they don't speak and are practically objects to just look at. My suggestion would simply be to make this a neutral stance. Yes, there is mention of misogyny in this section as well, but in order for it to be neutral, it needs to be expanded on. Possibly even a section on how gender is portrayed in hip hop. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shaffera2 (talk • contribs) 19:12, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

in the graffiti subsection…

There are some missing references in the first paragraph; or the second paragraph

Also the coverage here is not completely balanced/logical; there should probably be a clearer statement of how the style developed both within and without hip hop in the late 70s/early 80s. There should also be some source checking done here, as there either are none, or the sources utilized are limited. Last, a statement of the fact that this was a youth culture that cut across racial/gendered lines but whose genesis was in socioeconomically underprivileged areas should be mentioned.

2002:43BD:D2CF:0:3C99:DBF4:164F:E86 (talk) 23:02, 5 February 2015 (UTC)JulesCapone

Mores merged into Authenticity

The section labeled Mores, which discusses the keeping it real and representing aspect of hip hop seems to be something that needs to be under the authenticity acatagory. Is there a particular reason as to why it is labeled as Mores? I feel like it was just thrown their with an inadequate heading because the author of this section did not know where to place it.

Also, this section almost verges on a biased/opinion type vein of thought and if one could work it into the Authenticity section in a way that would benefit it.

--Tyeargin92 (talk) 23:04, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Community economics and product placement

• Hopefully we can add citations regarding artists like Will.i.am, Dr. Dre, and Jay-Z in regards to the community economies that they developed and the subsequent product placement that took the product placement of other's products to afford and how this change in product background affects the culture of hip hop and others.

Keep It Briezy (talk) 23:08, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Effects

there was a lack of balanced coverage. it could be elaborated more on the effect hip hop actually had on youth, American society, and internationally. the content is pretty neutral, although underdeveloped. there was not enough coverage on the effects overseas or in America. It can talk more about the actually changes that hip hop brought to the communities in which it was practiced. 137.140.125.59 (talk) 23:15, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Not clear?

"Even other musicians, like Nas and KRS-ONE have claimed "hip hop is dead" in that it has changed so much over the years to cater to the consumer that it has lost the essence for which it was originally created. However, in his book In Search Of Africa, Manthia Diawara explains that hip hop is really a voice of people who are down and out in modern society. He argues that the "worldwide spread of hip hop as a market revolution" is actually global "expression of poor people’s desire for the good life," and that this struggle aligns with "the nationalist struggle for citizenship and belonging, but also reveals the need to go beyond such struggles and celebrate the redemption of the black individual through tradition." The problem may not be that female rappers can’t keep up with their male counterparts; it is more of a matter of who is willing to listen in an industry that is so defined by gender biases. Industry executives seem to bet on the idea that men won’t want to listen to female rappers, so they are given fewer opportunities.[66] "

I'm not really clear on what the last two sentence may have to do with the ones prior. I, also wish there was a citation to say where this information was found, because even thought it is true, it sounds opinionated.

{HildaFizzle (talk) 23:19, 5 February 2015 (UTC)}

Criticisms

The criticisms section could use some expansion. There is much more to the criticism of hip hop culture than Bill Cosby and Rock-ism. Some of the sources seem less than reputable. This page is talking about hip hop culture as a whole, as a community, not just the music it produces, and the criticisms should acknowledge that. Kayserroll (talk) 23:24, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Education section

The first line should be supported with evidence, that hip hop can have an empowering effect on youths.

The line "While exposure to misogyny, violence, and drug use often seen in rap music videos or heard in the lyrics, hip hop displays many positive themes for kids" Should read "While there is exposure to misogyny, violence, and drug use often seen in rap music videos or heard in the lyrics, hip hop also displays many positive themes for kids." Examples should be given as well to further strengthen that statement.

"The greater themes of self reliance, resilience, and self esteem that are contained in many rap lyrics that, if properly focused on, can have a positive effect on youth." This should be clarified...what is considered proper vs improper focus? And is that too opinion-based?

"A lot of rap songs contain references to strengthening the African American community and pushing for more social causes." This is very broad, should be made more specific and with examples. Plus, is it just the African American community? Or does hip hop include more people than that?

"Social workers have been known to use hip hop to build a relationship with at-risk youth which seems to be effective." Should be phrased in a way that includes information from the source given other than the loose "seems to be effective."

The part about KRS-ONE teaching lectures at Harvard would make more sense to be in the paragraph with the other statements about college/university education.

Kayla523 (talk) 23:13, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

A Well As community programs that bring youth cultures together to create under the umbrella of Hip Hop

X-pert Dreamer (talk) 23:36, 5 February 2015 (UTC)X-Pert Dreamer

Merging assistance

At Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Conscious hip hop the result was to merge Conscious hip hop into Hip hop. Merging it to this page in the styles section would give this minor genre undue weight. The same is true for Hip hop music. List of hip hop genres is formatted as a pure list and doesn't really have any place to put prose. Where should I move this content? Someone help me. D O N D E groovily Talk to me 04:40, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Conscious hip hop is part of underground hip hop, and it is reasonable for underground hip hop to be given equal weight in regards to culture in that one can learn about various cultures and subcultures through a variety of underground sources (it is therefore more REPRESENTATIVE of culture than mainstream hip hop). Mainstream hip hop on the other hand only shows a small part of culture, although it has a greater mass effect on society. So Underground for representation AND mainstream for effect; though there's definitely some overlap. And since this deals with a sensitive race-related issue, it is important to show the great depth of diversity that has been represented my a large number of different underground artists. Not all black hip hop was historically gangsta rap; even within hip hop that expressed issues of poverty - they did so often in a way that attributed the issues of poverty to greater social issues within the greater society - and lyrics of mainstream hip hop were far less explicit in the early days of hip hop. "The Message" by Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five is more of a social commentary on social injustice as it relates to poverty. I would imagine there's been plenty of underground hip hop by black artists - even those living in areas of poverty - who do not portray life in the same manner that much of the gangsta rap does. The lyrics and imagery in videos (for mainstream rap) became increasingly violent and sexual over the course of time through competition and the expectations of the record industry. There are many out there who have attributed this specific genre of rap to maintaining fear & justification of privilege within the white power structure. People therefore should not come to this page and have their ideas that rap or hip hop is pretty much a "gangsta" thing and have racist beliefs have those beliefs reinforced by this article, when in fact the full cultural scope of what is being done by independent artists who show so many different cultural and subcultural pockets of the world in their work. Although "gangsta rap" is highly prominent in terms of visibility in mainstream culture, it's a smaller percentage of the work that's being done out there, & therefore not a good window INTO culture on it's own. Also I must say that some of the experimental attributes of innovative artists can often be picked up and stylistically incorporated into the work of other emerging artists. Sylvia Blossom (talk) 18:46, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps this info can go to Political hip hop Since the personal is political, politics can become a broadened term. X-pert Dreamer (talk) 21:28, 20 February 2015 (UTC)X-pert Dreamer

Fashion

The blatant cultural appropration by major brands like Calvin Klein and Tommy Hilfiger, as outlined in the article draw focus to the fact that hip hop's fashion was largely ignored until high fashion declared it cool. The shifting ideals of masculinity and dress that followed in hip hop culture allowed for a more accepting enviroment. Kanye can wear a skirt and still be the greatest rapper of ALL TIME. Streetwear has also gained status as its own subgenre of fashion, with obsessive sneakerheads and hypebeasts creating an extremely lucrative market for many manufacturers.

{Yblue782 (talk) 23:22, 5 February 2015 (UTC)}yblue782

Since Hip Hop began by outrightly going against the systematic oppression in the U.S, artists created they're own fashion to continually "own" various entities as their own. Example: Wearing hats backwards (things along this nature)

So as hip hop culture became mainstream so has the style which explains major brands appropriating the culture styles Theres also places where hip hop & fashion merge seamlessly like Kanye working with adidas X-pert Dreamer (talk) 21:36, 20 February 2015 (UTC)X-pert Dreamer