Talk:Rescue of Jews during the Holocaust

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Citation 14 on the page the link no longer works, the updated link is https://www.ushmm.org/information/exhibitions/online-exhibitions/special-focus/holocaust-in-greece/zakynthos I’ve no idea how to edit Wikipedia but if someone who does wants to update the citation please use the link above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.108.1.74 (talk) 01:39, 2 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Polish material)

ARASZKIEWICZ, Aleksandra, living in Cisie, near Ceg³ów, Siedlce prov. A sizable group of Jews from Ceg³ów took refuge in the village of Cisie, (incl. Esther, Yoyne Mendel and the baby Jab³onka Goldstein) as well as Jews who escaped from the "death trains" to Treblinka via aCeg³ów. On June 28, 1943 raids were carried out on the village by the military police

from Miñsk Mazowiecki, during which 25 Poles, incl. railwaymen, were snatched from their homes, together with numerous Jews they sheltered and

murdered: Marcin D¹browski, Franciszek Fiutkowski, Aleksander G¹sior,

Henryk Gergera, Rozalia Jaworska with her 2 years old daughter, Tadeusz

Lipiñski, Zygmunt Ma³us, Stanis³aw Pe¿yk, Tomasz and Sylweriusz P³atek,

Edward R¿ysko, W³adys³aw Saski, Eugeniusz Skwieciñski, Marian and Piotr Smater, Jan Szczêsny, Józefa Szyperska, Aleksandra W¹sowska, Jan and ,

Mieczys³aw W¹sowski, W³adys³aw Wójcicki, Jan Zagañczyk and Ludwik Zaj¹c. Wies³aw Walczewski was arrested the same day, but shot in January 1944. The VILLAGE WAS BURNT DOWN. (see: 92, 124, 141-142, 186- 187, 332, 361. 456, 470-471, 536, 539, 560, 564-565, 597, 604, 630, 635-637, 677, 693, 696)

Jews in Finland

I wonder if Finland as whole should be added to the list, since Finland didn't deport her citizens to Germany, even though Finland was Germanys ally and Germans made demands of that. Actually, several hundred Finnish Jews fought in Finnish army through the war and they had their own field-synaqoque. http://www.uta.fi/~tuulikki.vuonokari/fin-1.html

Folke Bernadotte

Doesn't Folke Bernadotte belong on this list? I know he wasn't very popular shortly before his assassination, but I know he did save a significant amount of Jews during the Holocaust. If everyone doesn't mind, I'll add him to the list, and if there's a significant dispute, everyone can discuss whether he should be on the list or not. - Gilgamesh 11:42, 24 July 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Yad Vashem lists 17,000 people who they recognize. There are many more who they don't, and the director of the Righteous Among the Nations Department has told me that there are about 25 thousand people who would meet their rigid standards. There are many others who do mot meet the standards, or who are controversial. That said, do we want articles for all of them? Do we want a list for all of them? Just wondering. Danny 11:46, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I don't know anything about Yad Vashem. I thought it would at least be alright to include people who saved larged numbers of Jews, in the thousands. And Folke Bernadotte meets that criterion. - Gilgamesh 03:16, 25 July 2004 (UTC)[reply]

A link of interest

Rudolf Stursa or The story of Czech "Oscar Schindler"

Budapest Memorial

Holocaust Memorial Budapest

Regarding this Place: Testimonies from the family Jakobovics in newspapers 1947

http://www.spacetime-sensor.de/wallenberg.htm

people who assisted

Italians in Salonica

I read that Italian diplomats in German-occupied Salonica claimed that many Sephardim were Italian citizens (hence protected by the Kingdom of Italy) aducing that their Ladino surnames were actually Italian. This policy was authorized by Fascist leaders varying along the swings in Axis internal relationships.

Simeon Pukalski

Simeon Pukalski - Bulgarian peasant, who saved a jewish couple with two children

No google hits. Bogdan | Talk 12:51, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Removal of holocaustforgotten.com link

At first glance, the work of Ms. Pencak (owner of holocaustforgotten.com) seems full of merit to me; however, 1. I can't see how a direct link to a website discussing the non-jewish victims of the Holocaust belongs, without any comment, at the bottom of a "List of people who helped Jews during the Holocaust". It's just non-relevant at all. 2. The website of Ms. Pencak tries to make a point: the non-jewish, polish victims of the Holocaust are "forgotten" outside of Poland. This is someone's opinion (and probably a US-centered one), and such a website should not be linked to, anywhere on wikipedia, without appropriate comments and context.

Requested move (People vs. Non-Jewish People)

I don't mean to be nitpicky, or start a heated argument, but doesn't the title of this article exclude jews who assisted other jews during the holocaust from being considered people? Nor is it a list anyone who held a door open for a jew during the holocaust, so "assisted" might be a bit of an understatement. There's a link to Righteous Among the Nations, but that's an honorary title which may not apply to everyone on this list. Maybe "Righteous Gentiles" would be a more accurate term? -- TheMightyQuill 16:42, 13 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the list seems somewhat dishevelled at present. Perhaps there needs to be two articles, one for named individuals and the other for organisations etc, that are linked to each other and also watched to ensure any additions maintain the distinction. A "List of Righteous Among the Nations from World War II" might also be viable. (I'd say "Righteous Among the Nations" = "Righteous Gentiles", but am not sure.) Regards, David Kernow 17:54, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to move it wherever you wish, but I've got no clue where to... —Nightst a llion (?) ^{Seen this already?} 07:15, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

List of those who acted to save people from the Holocaust —204.42.20.62 20:59, 13 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't sound quite right to me... —Nightst a llion (?) 07:43, 1 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Abdol-Hossein Sardari

Can someone create a article about him? He was the head of the consular section of the Iranian embassy under the Vichy government, he succeeded in convincing the Nazis that Iranian Jews were not Semites, thus saving their lives. He also went a step further and issued 500 Iranian passports to non-Iranian Jews in France. Nokhodi 08:12, 25 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fascinating! I never knew about him. Beebop211 (talk) 16:04, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Corrie ten Boom

Corrie ten Boom is only slightly famous for her assistance to Jews during the Holocaust. --Midnightcomm 22:19, 28 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Netherlands

It is odd that the article about the Netherlands starts with the fact that the majority of the Dutch where "bystanders". I am sure the Netherlands was no different in this than other countries, yet, in the "Netherlands sections" it seems to be the most important fact that needs to be mentioned. Odd.

In Portugal

The mentioning of Portugal is mainly because of the work of Aristide de Sousa Mendes. Yet, Aristide de Sousa Mendes has again his own mentioning in "Leaders and Diplomats" If he is worth both, then why isn't Wallenberg?

I have added important facts on Portugal. Heroes and valuable people such as Sampaio Garrido, Teixeira Branquinho, Leite Pinto, Moses Amzalak, Auguto d’Esaguy, etc. were forgotten because they worked in coordination with Salazar and they were of no use to the new political regime that came after Salazar. Many years have passed, documents have been made public, and a new generation of historians is finally looking at the facts without political biases. It is obvious that Sousa Mendes deeds were enlarged to attack Salazar. We now know that the numbers were a myth. That Sousa Mendes in 1938 had already accumulated an impressive track record of incidents, that in 1923 he was expelled from the US accused of non-democratic behavior, that he praised himself of persecuting Portuguese political refugees living abroad, that he was reprimanded several times for abusing of public money of the consulate, and while in Bordeaux he started his disobedience (that includes the crime of forging passports) long before hostilities begun at the French border. Sousa Mendes was called to Lisbon when the British Embassy in Lisbon accused the Consul in Bordeaux of improperly charging money for issuing visas. The letter said that "The Portuguese Consul at Bordeaux has been deferring until after office hours all applications for visas and has then been charging them at a special rate; in at least one case the applicant has also been requested to contribute to a Portuguese charitable fund before the visa was granted." Sousa Mendes died in “poverty” due to lack on money sense, both his and his second wife (The French mistress he met in Bordeaux) . Portugal treated him generously keeping on paying his full salary till the day he died in 1954. These facts are undisputable.JPratas (talk) 09:23, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It is regrettable that after many years the horrors of the holocaust are still being used for regional political purposes. Salazar can be accused of many things, one can even argue that Salazar could have helped more refugees than he did. But the fact that he did help a lot of people is undeniable. And Sousa Mendes was not a victim of Salazar or the regime. Douglas Wheeler Professor Emeritus of History at the University of New Hampshire, who according to Sousa Mendes Foundation has authored an important article on Aristides de Sousa Mendes, in that same article says that “Sousa Mendes was never actually fired, only placed on inactive diplomatic limbo” and kept on collect “possibly 1,500 escudos a month”. We now know that in reality Sousa Mendes kept on receiving his full salary! Many people compare Sousa Mendes with Raoul Wallenberg and other heroes. But as historian Douglas Wheeler reminds us, Sousa Mendes never stood public trial (for passport forgery) and “never defended oppositionists as a lawyer, but only himself and his family. Unlike Raoul Wallenberg, he did not disappear into Soviet prison only into the mists of Beira Alta in Portugal” into his mansion, Passal.JPratas (talk) 09:50, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't take JPratas' comments above too seriously, as he has stated explicitly on the Aristides de Sousa Mendes talk page that the Holocaust began in 1942 and that Sousa Mendes was not out to rescue Jews. Beebop211 (talk) 16:07, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Gilberto Bosques Saldívar

I have added the name of Gilberto Bosques Saldívar (1892-1995) to the "Leaders and diplomats" list. He was Consul of Mexico on Marselle, France, between 1939 and 1943. He is credited with saving around 40,000 Jews, resistance leaders and political refugees by issuing visas allowing them to travel to Mexico or other countries. Because of this activities, and despite being a diplomat, on 1943 he was imprisoned by the Nazis and sent to Germany along with his family. They were set free a year later and returned to Mexico. He died on 1995, at the age of 103. For his humanitarian labor, since 2003 a boulevard in Vienna bears his name. For more information, see http://www.raoulwallenberg.net/?en/saviors/diplomats/bosques/, http://www.jewishjournal.com/home/preview.php?id=15806 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Henio hp (talk • contribs) 12:05, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Repetitive with list of Righteous Among the Nations?

What figures are listed here that are not included on list of Righteous Among the Nations? I imagine that there are several, but it is hard to imagine that their selection is in any way objective and not original research. If there are similar forms of recognition to RATN, they should have a list to, but my general feeling is that Wikipedia is not in a position to create a novel list that requires deciding who assisted Jews during the holocaust. Savidan 23:24, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This particular article would be a very good place to record groups, organizations, towns and villages that did something.Galassi (talk) 11:51, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Disputed, unilateral move

Google search: "Holocaust Rescuers" 11,100 results
Google search: "Individuals assisting Jews" No results found
--Poeticbent talk 19:54, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1.Since when Google stats are a Wiki criterion??? 2. "Rescuers" is a nighly poetic notion, utterly unsuitable for an Encyclopedia.Galassi (talk) 11:47, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think that "rescue" is a clear term meaning to save someone's life, whereas "assist" is far too broad and diffuse. In the context of the Holocaust, where certain classes of people were slated for state-sponsored extermination, the term "rescue" is amply justifiable. Beebop211 (talk) 16:10, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Questioning heading, "Prominent individuals"

I'm looking for an appropriate place to list a German Jewish woman who secured the release of (reportedly) 412 Jews from concentration camps, between about 1933 and 1936. This is the only section that looks appropriate, but that word "Prominent" bothers me. I wonder if it's accurate? I've checked some of the pages listed there, and it does seem that many of the people listed were not particularly "prominent" — they "merely" did heroic work. A case in point: I have started a page on Ilse Stanley, a remarkable woman about whom I can find practically NOTHING on the internet. She authored a remarkable book, Stanley, Ilse (1957). The Unforgotten. [Boston, Mass. USA]: Beacon Press. pp. 375pp. LCC PN2658.S75 A3. — yet now she herself appears to be close-to forgotten. (Not ready to put it up as a page yet, want to give it a better "head start" first.) — Martha (talk) 22:43, 6 November 2008 (UTC), "tweaked" by Martha (talk) 07:37, 28 November 2008 (UTC) to reflect reality.[reply]

Rufino Niccacci

I've added Rufino Niccacci, the Franciscan priest who coordinated 'the Assisi Underground', to the list of Religious figures. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fainche (talk • contribs) 01:34, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Miklos Horthy de Nagybanya

What about including the 1920-1944 Regent of Hungary Miklos Horthy, who constantly dragged his heels against Hitler's demands to implement anti-Semitic laws? Eventually he was removed from power firstly after refusing once more to deport Hungary's Jews to the concentration camps; and secondly after he re-couped the Nazi puppet government, put a stop to deportations, and tried to make peace with the USSR. He may not have been the most pleasant of men, but all the Hungarian Jews who survived World War Two were pretty much saved by him. His Prime Minister who joined him in the August 1944 re-coup was Géza Lakatos, who may also deserve a mention. 92.232.174.184, 13/12/2009 19:14 GMT

Yeah, I think I would agree with you about Horthy deserving a mention in this article. Futurist110 (talk) 19:06, 31 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Carl Savich artile on Albania

Hello everyone. Regarding the "some disagree" source on Albania: I have to protest to the use of Carl Savich and Serbianna.com as a legitimate source. The article is by and large a hostile and politically charged attack by a fervently nationalist Serbian website and writer, who wishes to simply slander Albanians. If you look at some of his other articles he does pretty much the same thing. it would be better to either reference this bias or to remove the source entirely.

Thank you!

I agree, Carl Savich is an extreme anti Albanian nationalist, if he could he would do to Albanians what nazis tried to do to Jews, accepting his "disagree" is a disgrace. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.209.156.131 (talk) 15:01, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Carl Lutz from Switzerland saved 60,000 Jews

Carl Lutz from Switzerland saved over 60,000 Jews. However, I can't find his name under this list?

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/archive/Righteous_Swiss_who_saved_thousands_of_Jews.html?cid=664188

Carl Lutz is mentioned twice in the article. Pburka (talk) 03:33, 20 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

60,000? Wow, that's a lot. I did not realize that it was that high. Way to go, Mr. Lutz! Beebop211 (talk) 16:15, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Lutz did it with his staff handing out Schutzbrief (also known as Schutzpass), i.e. one page printed form with a small empty slot on it for adding a name, some 50 thousand of them printed in total, like mailbox fliers. Each 1,000 letters were linked to one Swiss passport.[1] Poeticbent talk 19:42, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Copying within Wikipedia

Quote from Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia: "copying content from another page within Wikipedia requires supplementary attribution to indicate it. At minimum, this means a link to the source page in an edit summary at the destination page — that is, the page into which the material is copied." The new expansion on Italy, Vatican City State, and so on, are copy-paste jobs with no regard for this article limited scope. This is a "List of individuals and groups", not a second copy of Rescue of Jews by Catholics during the Holocaust or whatever. Please be more reasonable, Poeticbent talk 07:21, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Here are the Duplication Detector results (live).

Comparing documents for duplicated text:

Matching phrases found: 139 or 17,607 characters copied (before eliminating redundant matches).

Poeticbent talk 14:17, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

POV tag

Hi!

Currently the article contains the text:

Pope Pius XII succeeded Pius XI on the eve of war in 1939. His Holocaust related activities are highly controversial. Many see him in a very negative light. Others see him differently as shown below.

Someone who knows more about this topic should fix this. Sorry, I am not able to fix it myself.

Brandis76 (talk) 00:17, 20 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like the relevant text has since been removed, and nobody seems to be disputing the current version, so I've removed the tag for now. --Aquillion (talk) 07:41, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Category:People assisting Jews during the Holocaust

I've created a related category; please help populate. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:54, 28 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Statement and reference

I have a question about the following text in the lemma: "Martin Gilbert wrote that many Poles betrayed Jews to the Germans, and that "Poles who risked their own lives to save the Jews were indeed the exception. But they could be found throughout Poland, in every town and village." "

Please note that this text consists of two statements about Gilberts book. The second is supported by a citation, while the first is not. I have Gilbert's book here in my hand, and have so far been unable to find a source for the first statement. Maybe the original contributor, or anyone else, can help?

Besides, categorical statements including indefinite numerals such as 'many', 'a lot of', 'a great number of' etc. are vague and often a source of misunderstanding, if not rhetoric. How many Poles betraying Jews warrants the use of the word 'many' Poles? Is that an absolute number, or relative to other countries? Does it take the absolute or relative size of the Jewish population into account? Does it take the fact into account that it took several people, if not an organization in order to rescue one Jew, but that it took only one person to betray a whole Jewish family? Is it a moral statement, in that any distinct number of betrayers of Jews is in itself 'too many'?

Please understand that I am not a revisionist, nor an apologist. But I have become wary of categorical statements about 'the Poles' and vague expressions such as 'many Poles' implicitly accusing a whole people of complicity in the Holocaust. So my standpoint is: if Martin Gilbert said this, it can be included in the lemma, but only if a clear reference can be found. If that cannot be found, the wording of this categorical statement should be revised. Mcouzijn (talk) 08:26, 25 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Try page 142. Zero^talk 12:38, 25 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. There's nothing on page 142 about that, User:Zero0000. The statement in question, is not supported by Gilbert at all. Is it a product of deliberate deception by some user who put it in. Please search the entire book courtesy of Google at https://books.google.ca/books?id=HfBmAAAAMAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=betrayed+Jews – I removed that contentious phrase from the title of this thread because it is not from Gilbert and smacks of unnecessary POV in here. Edit pending. Poeticbent talk 16:58, 25 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Done. The only source of that statement was Wikipedia according to https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=Martin+Gilbert%2C+The+Righteous%3A+The+Unsung+Heroes+-+%22Poles+betrayed+Jews%22 Poeticbent talk 17:07, 25 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Poeticbent: Apologies, I didn't read carefully and thought you were doubting the quotation. Now that I understand the question, I agree with your action. Zero^talk 08:20, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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SPS removed

I removed a WP:SPS from the references. Please discuss here.Icewhiz (talk) 07:39, 1 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Specifically, WP:ELNO(2) Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research which per Poray's WP:FRINGE opinions on the matter are relevant.Icewhiz (talk) 18:03, 1 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Back it up with sources that it is “fringe" first.GizzyCatBella (talk) 18:26, 1 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@GizzyCatBella: - please note that entering WP:FRINGE material (by reversion or otherwise) into Wikipedia is a serious matter, and we really do try to avoid WP:SPS. Also note WP:IDHT in regards to previous discussions on this subject. Furthermore, if you revert - it is expected that you take place in the discussion - that was open here. Poray herself is fairly obscure and has very little coverage, which should be a glaring red flag for including her in and of itself. However, from the coverage she does receive, it is clear that she is fringe and promoting a myth - Bringing the Dark Past to Light: The Reception of the Holocaust in Postcommunist Europe first, to underscore the large number of rescuers; second, to downplay or ignore the low societal approval of rescue activities; and third, not to differentiate among the various among the various categories of rescuers, protectors, and helpers and their motivations. The same tendencies are currently being advocated and fostered by historians and journalists practicing polityka historyczna.(94) As a tool to normalize the dark past, to claim that Polish anti-Semitism and nationalism did not have much of a damaging influence on Polish-Jewish relations, and to restore the image of Poles as.... Footnote 94 mentioning an interview of her in a Polish newspaper as an example. ..... “I will never forget what you did for me during the war”: Rescuer — Rescuee Relationships in the Light of Postwar Correspondence in Poland, 1945–1949 - For recent mild and strong expressions of this myth see, for example, Mark Paul .... interview with Anna Poray-Wybranowska, “Nation of Heroes,” Nasz Dziennik in footnote 85 - whose context is Writers, journalists, and historians continued to disseminate the myth of “the ungrateful Jew” in publications in the 1970s and 1980s,(84) and the myth has persisted in popular historical consciousness in the post-communist era.(85) .... Kwiatkowska, Hanna Maria. Conflict of images. Conflict of memories. Jewish themes in the Polish right-wing nationalistic press in the light of articles from Nasz Dziennik 1998–2007. University of London, University College London (United Kingdom), 2008. - Nasz Dziennik constantly reminds its readers about the lack of Jewish gratitude for Polish heroism. The most dramatic in tone of those reminders was the interview with Anna Poray-Wybranowska from Canada who documents Polish heroism in saving the Jews during World War II. She claimed to have convincing evidence to estimate that `1 million of Poles were saving Jews'. She criticized the `restrictive conditions of Yad Vashem in acknowledging the Righteous Among the Nations' - it almost sounded like a deliberately unjust system that belittles the Polish efforts. Wybranowska made a plea `to erect a memorial wall with the names of all those who saved the Jews because `those Poles are the greatest heroes in the world 17l The article asserted what the title implied, not only a great number of Poles were heroes during the war, Poles in general are a `nation of heroes'. ... Fringe, QED.Icewhiz (talk) 18:28, 1 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t see anything in the wall of text you have posted that proves that this book is “fringe”. GizzyCatBella (talk) 20:54, 1 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Myth and political history in a RS. QED. Besides being SPS which is ground enough to remove.Icewhiz (talk) 04:38, 2 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No it is not, cherry picked and out of context. GizzyCatBella (talk) 05:34, 2 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

ROFL - this is the opposite of cherry picked, and the full context was presented above. The sole reason she is mentioned in one (as a footnote example) is "For recent mild and strong expressions of this myth, for example...". And in the others this is similar. The sole reasone she is even mentioned is as an example of these extreme fringe views. Any policy based reason to keep this here? Why are so keen on keeping links to this extremist?Icewhiz (talk) 05:47, 2 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

First, DON’T “ROLF” me anymore, I feel personally attacked when you do that. Second, this is your opinion (and you are entitled to one) that she has "extreme fringe views." Your opinion, however, happens to be entirely the opposite of mine. Your cherry picked and out of context newspapers quotes don’t make that writer work fringe. GizzyCatBella (talk) 06:44, 2 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have an opinion - I'm following the sources - in this case two researchers in the field of historiography - who clearly treat her as fringe (promoting a myth). I have backed this up with sources - not that this is required given this a self-published book / personal website - so far, you have offered an opinion - no relevant policy.Icewhiz (talk) 07:01, 2 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

These are not sources that prove that her book is “fringe”, these are a cherry picked and out of context things. Just one quote for you - “Ms. Anna Poray-Wybranowska, whom I was fortunate to know and cooperate with died in Canada. She was a co-creator and initiator of the establishment of the Committee to commemorate the Poles who saved Jews. Thanks to her efforts at least a few dozen Poles received by the decision of the Yad Vashem Institute the medal Righteous Among the Nations. Among those people were also my parents, Stanisław and Aleksandra Żarynowie, and my uncles, Władysław and Jadwiga Olizar.” Professor Jan Żaryn. [2] GizzyCatBella (talk) 07:29, 2 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Icewhiz and GizzyCatBella: May I suggest that you give your conversation a rest for a few days? We are talking about a link, after all, which causes no great harm by its absence or presence for a period of time. In the meantime, you can invite other editors of this article to offer their perspectives. If none do, you can always request a Wikipedia:Third opinion. I don't feel motivated or qualified to render one here. It's clear to me that you are both acting in good faith, so it would help enormously to remain civil and not be scornful of the other's position.

It seems to me that the disputed link covers the material discussed in Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust. Why not simply do a "See also". To the extent that article has problems, I suggest fixing them there. The link is in Wayback Machine, which doesn't suggest an active interest in that material on the part of its partisans. Otherwise, it may fall under WP:ELMAYBE as "Sites that fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources."

Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 12:21, 2 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

HopsonRoad, I shall give this a rest on this article for a bit, and I appreciate uninvolved opinion (would you weigh in?). As for harm - an external link is less harmful than using this as a source, however this is still WP:PROFRINGE of the rather ugly ungrateful Jew myth.Icewhiz (talk) 14:21, 2 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your reply, Icewhiz. I looked again for something disparaging of Jews in the story (I'm unfamiliar with the "ungrateful Jew myth") and all I saw was the challenges that would present themselves to someone who wished to save Jews—challenges that were present elsewhere in Nazi-occupied Europe. The article doesn't speak to how many actually wished to and, more importantly, actually did save Jews. In any event, it doesn't appear to add value to material already present in Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust. Therefore, my recommendation would be to omit the link in question. Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 15:53, 2 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Rename to "Rescuers of Jews during the Holocaust"?

WP:NAMINGCRITERIA suggests that a good Wikipedia article title has the five following characteristics (quoted, below):

Recognizability – The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize.
Naturalness – The title is one that readers are likely to look or search for and that editors would naturally use to link to the article from other articles. Such a title usually conveys what the subject is actually called in English.
Precision – The title unambiguously identifies the article's subject and distinguishes it from other subjects.
Conciseness – The title is no longer than necessary to identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects.
Consistency – The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles. Many of these patterns are listed (and linked) as topic-specific naming conventions on article titles, in the box above.

I would suggest that "rescuers of Jews" is more recognizable, more natural, more precise, and concise than "individuals and groups that assisted Jews". The proposed title is more consistent with the following articles linked from within the article:

Therefore, I suggest that the article be renamed, "Rescuers of Jews during the Holocaust". This would help the current lead sentence better reflect the title, per MOS:LEADSENTENCE. What do others suggest? HopsonRoad (talk) 18:27, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I was about to say this was imprecise in some cases and colloquial, but then I saw Yad Vashem uses this in English - so I defer to their judgement.Icewhiz (talk) 18:43, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent idea. Nihil novi (talk) 21:35, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Why no Germans on this list?

I found this in an article on Oskar Schindler here on Wikipedia; "Oskar Schindler (28 April 1908 – 9 October 1974) was a German industrialist and a member of the Nazi Party who is credited with saving the lives of 1,200 Jews during the Holocaust by employing them in his enamelware and ammunitions factories in occupied Poland …". I am confused as to why there are no Germans on this list of people who helped save the lives of German Jews or of Jewish people in general from the death camp. Many of these people were probably headed to one of the death camps when Schindler picked them out to work for him. He could only save so many, which accounts for the small number saved. There was a good movie made about him and what he did for these people called "Schindler's List." Can anyone give a good reason why there are no Germans on this list? DesertFox1A51 (talk) 04:18, 19 July 2018 (UTC) DesertFox1A51[reply]

Thank you for this question, DesertFox1A51. You have pointed out a notable omission in Oskar Schindler and perhaps there are other notable examples, which should be in the list. You are welcome to be bold and add mention of Schindler to the article. Sincerely, HopsonRoad (talk) 11:02, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Albania claimed to be the only country where the population of Jews went up during WWII

The article states

At the end of the war, Albania's Jewish population was greater than it was prior to the war, making it the only country in Europe where the Jewish population increased during World War II.

But this can't possibly be true since the Jewish population in the UK must have gone up - especially given the 10K refugee children they accepted. I checked the source cited and didn't read the whole way through but didn't immediately see any comparative claim or data on the rest of Europe in the context of Albania.

I changed it to say the only country in *mainland* Europe which makes the same point but is more accurate.

--Lansey (talk) 18:59, 7 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Silveter undid your edit (and mine) with no justification. I undid that with a long justification. Let's hope that's enough to prevent an edit war. Stefantalpalaru (talk) 09:56, 10 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And he did it again, claiming that the perpetrators were all party members: https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Rescuers_of_Jews_during_the_Holocaust&oldid=prev&diff=920703421 - Stefantalpalaru (talk) 19:53, 14 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse me? Sorry to inform you but the Nazi's controlled Germany during World War II....................THE NAZI'S in Germany.......killed a lot of people....Modernist (talk) 20:24, 14 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There is no apostrophe in the plural form of "Nazi". That said, "Nazi" is not a substitute for "German". It's not just the political party in power at the time that killed people, invaded countries, started a world war, etc. That's just the "clean Wehrmacht" myth pushed forward after WW2 in an effort to separate US-controlled Western Germany from its dark and bloody past. That's how people like you ended up talking only about Nazis and never about Germans. All the blame fell on a political party and the rest of the Germans were just following orders. Instead of abusing dots and upper case letters, you should ask yourself if a country of innocents can really be controlled by a single party, change its whole economy into a war economy because of a single party it secretly disagreed with, invade other countries because the Party said so and, finally, lay all the blame on that party when utterly defeated with great loss of human life. You should also ask that about your own country. Stefantalpalaru (talk) 21:12, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No luck. The semi-literate user engaged in a revert war instead of trying to articulate his motives for replacing "German" with "Nazi" when it comes to WW2. Stefantalpalaru (talk) 21:27, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Germany not listed?

It seems odd to me that Germany is not listed among the countries, when there are a number of examples (most famously Schindler). I haven’t seen as discussion in the talk page, but perhaps this has already been discussed. Jgalt87 (talk) 05:37, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of countries are missing!

Did someone get bored? There was something called the Kindertransport, and the rescuers were mostly British. Need a note that this page is incomplete.

02:57, 17 October 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8805:9100:788:2D11:DE80:30AD:EF4E (talk)

I don't see Soviet Union on this list, the main country where Jews found safe haven. General Editor (talk) 03:51, 4 May 2021 (UTC) General Editor[reply]

@General Editor:, if you can provide a citation from a reliable source that backs up that claim, you can feel free to add it yourself. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 05:06, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 January 2021

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The first sentence of the second paragraph is missing a comma. "Since 1953, Israel's Holocaust memorial, Yad Vashem, has recognized..." Itsbb8-m8 (talk) 03:33, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Done – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:44, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dutch Strike against deportation of Jews

There were only two popular strikes against the deportation of Jews, one in Greece and one in the Netherlands. The February strike in Amsterdam happened spontaneously when the occupation authorities began to round up Jews there. The Germans reacted extremely harshly in both cases. Also, Dutch university students in the Kindercomite smuggled many Jewish children out of the collection center in Amsterdam in order to save them. These efforts by Dutch people to save their Jewish neighbors should be mentioned DP1944 (talk) 16:20, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 January 2021

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Under Villages helping Jews

Nieuwlande, Netherlands – during the war, this small village contained 117 inhabitants. They unanimously decided in 1942 and 1943 that every household would give shelter to one Jewish household or individual during the war, thus making it impossible that anyone in the small village would betray their neighbors. Dozens of Jews were thus saved. All inhabitants have been honored by Yad Vashem.

Delete sentence "They unanimously decided....neighbors" because it is not factually accurate. Replace with "Most households in the village and surrounding area cooperated to shelter Jews." Add reference Douwes, Arnold, The Secret Diary of Arnold Douwes, Rescue in the Occupied Netherlands. Ed Bob Moore and Johannes Houwink ten Cate. Bloomington, IN: Indiana University Press, 2019. The entire book is about Nieuwlande during the war, particularly the communal rescue of Jews. DP1944 (talk) 16:28, 28 January 2021 (UTC) DP1944 (talk) 16:28, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@DP1944: do you have a page number/numbers which could be added to that citation? Here's that book in {{cite book}} form for reference: Douwes, Arnold (2019). Moore, Bob; Houwink ten Cate, Johannes (eds.). The secret diary of Arnold Douwes : rescue in the occupied Netherlands. Bloomington: Indiana University Press. ISBN 978-0-253-04420-4. OCLC 1107821128. Seagull123 Φ 17:18, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The entire book is about the rescue of Jews in Nieuwlande, but there's a good summary in the interview, pp 7-45. By the way, shouldn't the nouns be capitalized in a title in English? DP1944 (talk) 19:07, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Done The previous claim of unanimous agreement was unsourced so, after looking over the book mentioned, I have made the requested change and cited the book. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 19:41, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:08, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Expanding the lead with notable rescuers

re [3] and @GizzyCatBella:. The lead is rather short, too short IMHO. I'd rather see it expanded, and a dedicated paragraph about notable rescuers wouldn't be out of place. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:11, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I’ll try to expend it a bit. - GizzyCatBella🍁 03:29, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Scope, criteria for inclusion

A big chunk of this article is not about rescue but simply a list of rescuers (people, and a few places/organizations), with no information on criteria used for their selection. Frankly, I think those lists should be removed (or moved somewhere else, to dedicated lists). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 15:16, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think we could make a dedicated list (or category) and link to it. I agree that having a haphazard list without the secondary source to establish which ones are truly notable or which ones are the most significant could lead to undo weight. Jehochman ^Talk 16:36, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I see User:Buidhe removed it. But that still leaves us with four more similar sections that are no better outside having a more narrow names ("religious figures", etc.). Why are those individuals listed here? Arguably some of them should be, but that is likely better covered by prose. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:37, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 November 2023

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In the subdivision of the section called By country that says Serbia, I request for "Ustase-controlled concentration camp Jasenovac" to be changed to "Ustase-controlled extermination camp Jasenovac". 95.151.245.1 (talk) 16:37, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: no reason given for the proposed change. M.Bitton (talk) 21:16, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Apologies in advance for any mistakes. I'm new here. I would like to add a better and newer source for the contribution of a person named in the list, in the section Leaders and Diplomats: Florencio Rivas. I want to propose an actual published academic paper "Asilo y destierro en Uruguay: Principios, continuidades y rupturas, 1875-1985"(original, archived). Discussion on the topic starts on page 9, Rivas actions are explained in page 14, while providing also further good quality sources.

In this same paper you can find described the actions of a person not named at all in this list: Carlos Maria Gurmendez, Ambassador of Uruguay to the Netherlands. Discussion on him starts on page 13 of the cited paper. I would like to add him to the list of Leaders and Diplomats. This text can help with what to add exacly.

Thanks! Thearchivist15 (talk) 18:30, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done – macaddct1984 ^{(talk | contribs)} 13:28, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alphabetizing the "by country" section.

The "by country" part of the article is not organizing by the alphabetical order of the countries, making it hard to navigate, if you're looking for one specific country, and has an unintended effect of "ranking" the efforts of these groups of people, at least for a reader of the article. Dominique Lyon (talk) 11:03, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]