Talk:Lukas Podolski

No Polish passport

German wikipedia discussion:

Lukas Podolski hat nur die Deutsche Staatsangehörigkeit, einen polnischen Pass hat er nicht. Damit dürfte die Diskussion um eine doppelte Staatsbürgerschaft beendet sein. Andreas Stops, ans sport GmbH (Management Lukas Podolski)

abgesehen davon, dass es mir egal ist zwei punkte zum vorstehenden (nicht signiertem) beitrag von Benutzer:Stopsi; warum ist anzunehmen das du Andreas Stops vom Management Podolskis bist? und weiterer; sagt das Management immer die wahrheit? *grins* ...Sicherlich Post 14:25, 14. Jun 2006 (CEST) Gerne kannst du unter 02161/821280 anrufen. Diese Nummer steht auch auf Lukas´ Website. Für weitere Infos stehe ich gerne zur Verfügung. Wieso sollte man eine doppelte Staatsbürgerschaft leugnen? Gruß Andreas Stops

Wenn das so ist sollten wir den Artikel auch entsprechend ändern. Oder hat jemand wirklich handfeste Belege für den polnischen Pass? Diese polnische Zeitung war wohl bisher die einzige Quelle für eine doppelte Staatsangehörigkeit. Hans Schäfer 11:20, 15. Jun 2006 (CEST) In der aktuellen Ausgabe der SportBild sagt Podolski, er habe keine doppelte Staatsbürgerschaft. --BLiZz@rD 16:00, 15. Jun 2006 (CEST)

Ich habe es rausgenommen. --Streifengrasmaus 16:06, 15. Jun 2006 (CEST)

Podolski has carried Polish passport, Polish nationality and Polish citizenship because he his Polish parents and all children of Polish parents have Polish nationality and citizenship as a matter of Polish law. edit for diction and grammar, hopefully without changing meaning Radio Guy (talk) 23:48, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Can anyone find any sources either way? Kingjeff 20:51, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Just read his Interview in the magazine SportBild from 15.June 2006. Because he has no polish passport, he could not play for the Polish national team. If you don´t believe me ask his management under 02161/821280 !

Nonsense. He was born in Poland, has Polish citizenship, passport wouldn't be a problem. Polish coach at the time chose not to call him to Polish national team, thus he joined German team. That's all — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.64.13.109 (talk) 14:31, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Podolski's origin

Maybe one tries to write this section in an objective way, providing all necessary information as well as all arguments pro and contra. For instance, it is written now that "His paternal family belongs to the German minority in Upper Silesia." But when one looks in the wiki link to the "German minority in Upper Silesia" one may infer that most of them live in the Opole district, not Silesia. That artcle also states that "The registered German minority in Poland consists of 152,900 people according to a 2002 census". One wonders if Podolski's family belong to that group? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zb007 (talk • contribs) 07:49, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Well someone (Jacek Kendysz) changed Podolski's origin from Silesian to Polish. My question is whether he is also of German origin. If not why would he otherwise be given the German nationality? I believe Miroslav Klose is truly of German ethnicity. Meursault2004 16:46, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/sport/weltfussball/artikel/202/79123/

Am Sitz der "Sozial-kulturellen Gesellschaft" der deutschen Minderheit im oberschlesischen Oppeln (Opole) wie auch im Haus der Deutsch-Polnischen Zusammenarbeit in der sechzig Kilometer südöstlich gelegenen Industriestadt Gleiwitz (Gliwice) herrscht geradezu Jubelstimmung: Die Oppelner sind stolz auf den in ihrer Stadt geborenen Miroslav Klose, sein Vater Josef stammt aus einer deutschen Familie. Die Gleiwitzer sind nicht minder stolz auf den von dort kommenden Lukas Podolski; seine Großmutter wohnt noch dort, ihre Muttersprache ist Deutsch.

Die Familien Klose und Podolski sind in den achtziger Jahren als Spätaussiedler in die Bundesrepublik gekommen. Sie hatten Anspruch auf die Aufnahme in die Bundesrepublik, weil die Großeltern vor dem Krieg Reichsbürger waren. Das kommunistische Regime in Warschau bestritt zwar offiziell, dass in Oberschlesien noch Deutsche lebten. Doch war es auf Kredite aus dem Westen angewiesen.

I think his grandmother/grandfather was a ethnic Pole, but was born in Silesia when it was German in about 1935 and therefor she/he was a German citizen. Therefor the family had the right to go to Germany in 1987.

I don't know if Lukas Podolski is of German ancestry. Answer for your question: it's possible to acquire German citizenship by naturalization (you can read about it here). Jacek Kendysz 14:33, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Is he both Sielesian and Polish, because Silesia has both Czech, Pole and German peoples. Bona Fides 21:11, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Podolskis family came as Aussiedler, this means specifically that they claimed German ethnicity and on that basis receceived citizenship. Two states in the world award citizenship to foreign nationals based on their ancestry: Germany and Israel. Read about it at de: Lukas Podolski and de:Aussiedler

How do we know all this. Is there anyway we can comfirm this? Kingjeff 00:37, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Couple of myths to dispell. Germany and Israel arent the only ones. Asamoah also was awarded citizenship. His father was Waldemar Podolski (Pole), his grandma and cousins live in Gliwice (Poles). A lot of Poles migrated to Germany for political/economic reasons in the 80s, some with ancestors, some without. Give some sources which precisely give who in his family, if anyone, was German. We know Miroslav's dad was half-German. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.5.241.79 (talk • contribs) 01:52, 30 June 2006

His family come from Kresy, as most people in Gliwice —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.5.198.167 (talk • contribs) 04:29, 30 June 2006

Here is something some of you might be able to do. How about looking for a source to see if he has any German background? If we find something, problem solved. Kingjeff 03:33, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I think Lukas is one of the sweetest football player of the germany football worldcup group. I am a fan of him. But who not???

Poldi doesn't dislike the German anthem. He exclaimed it was "fantastic" to have it on his boots. http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/06/en/060511/1/6r0a.html I don't know if he sung it. Perhaps he didn't. Perhaps he did. It's not interesting and not proven or disproven by any one so far. No need to argue about stuff too trivial to be called "trivial". There are songs about him. That's more remarkable . City-17 22:35, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

As per the article: "The Podolski family had the right to move to Germany because his (mixed Slavic-German Upper Silesian) grandparents had been residents of the German empire (Reich) until 1945 when they became Polish citizen."

I'm not sure why this description is so ambiguous and odd. Posolski's parents are both considered ethnic Germans by Germany because their grand parents were all ethnic Germans -- citizens(not "residents"). Just going to shorten this and clean it up. Ernham 19:11, 4 August 2006 (UTC)ernham

Point by point

The Podolski family had the right to move to Germany because they were ethnically German, as Lukas's grandparents had been German citizens until 1945 when they "became" Polish citizens. Podolski grew up in Bergheim, North Rhine-Westphalia, near Cologne.

• Instead of tabloids, please show me a source from a respectable biography that states that his parents are "ethnically German".

• I didn't write it but put that back in because it could be true. I found a source now and edited it. City-17 17:39, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Despite being born in Poland, Podolski has German citizenship only.

• Should read: As a result of being born in Poland, has Polish citizenship [/sarcasm]. That you include such a "fact" kind of reveals your intentions.

• It reveals MY INTENTIONS? You don't know MY intentions. You only know YOUR intentions. See the above section No Polish Passport. Podolski admitted to not having a Polish passport in SportBild. City-17 17:39, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

He wears unique shoes that display the Brandenburg Gate and have inscribed the words 'Unity, justice and freedom' -- from the German national anthem. "It is special to have the words of the national anthem printed on my boots. It is fantastic," Podolski said.

• I seperated this "tidbit" and requested a citation. Now see why I revert your version? Esp. with the historical name on a contemporary topic? Now please try editing some other articles instead of only Podolski and Klose, and how not-Polish they are. Pawel z Niepolomic 16:18, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

• You did't read the discussion page, I provided a citation already: [1] . And you didn't read my most recent version, there was NO »historical name on a comtemporary topic« anymore!

What article I edit, it's none of your business. City-17 17:39, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Please explain Pawel z Niepolomic how the clubs in which his parents had played are relevant to the early career of Lukas. Please explain on which sources you base your »He is a dual Polish-German citizen« and why this would overwrite the information about his passport. City-17 11:51, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I will trim it. His bio is the source. Many Poles dont have passports, yet they are still Polish citizens. Pawel z Niepolomic 23:16, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

His »bio« is your source? Where exactly is his bio? Just because you say many Poles don't have passports doesn't make that statement wrong. I also fail to see why you insist on »emigrated«. Explain these things first before you force them again. City-17 00:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

He's a Polish footballer too.

As a Polish citizen (he has) and native Pole we should called him as a Polish fotballer too! Not only German. Kowalmistrz 19:14, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

He is not Pole! He's not even polish citizen. He's native SILESIAN. If you don't believe me just ask him 80.49.150.73 14:20, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

He was asked in interview after Polish-German match. i saw it in TV. Podolski said, in POlish, that he has two fatherlands and his heart beats for both Poland and Germany. Szopen (talk) 14:51, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Also in German: http://www.tagesspiegel.de/sport/;art272,2062857 "„Man kann so sagen: Ich habe zwei Heimaten“, sagt Podolski." Szopen (talk) 14:56, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

In POlish: "Setki razy mówiłem, że Polski się nie wyprę. Nigdy. " "Hundred of times I said that I won't deny [my ties with?] Poland" - http://www.sport.pl/sport/1,90858,5284464,Podolski_typuje_final__Niemcy___Polska.html

Why he doesn't play for Poland: because no one from Poland wanted him to. "What were you expecting? That I would go to Poland and beg?"

" Zaraz pewnie usłyszę, że poleciałem na kasę i nie mam honoru, że polscy działacze się o mnie bili, prosili, żebym zagrał z orzełkiem na piersi, tylko ja to wszystko miałem gdzieś. Mam już dość tych bzdur. Prawda jest inna, to z waszej strony nikt mnie nie chciał" "Nikt nie proponował mi gry dla Polski, gdy jeszcze to było możliwe. Co miałem robić? Przyjechać i upraszać się, by ktoś z reprezentacji się mną zainteresował? Bądźmy poważni."

http://www.sport.pl/sport/1,65025,5284694,Podolski__Nikt_z_Polski_sie_o_mnie_nie_bil.html

I think this is clear, that his primary nationality is German, but he many times stressed that ties with Poland are VERY IMPORTANT for him. Szopen (talk) 10:28, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, there's no Silesian nationality! "Silesian people" is an ethnic group, a part of the Polish nation. Related with West Slavs and Germans, and the most with Polish Slavs, the modern people of Poland. And HE HAS a Polish citizenship! As a son of Polish citizens born in Poland he has since his birth. It's by the Polish law. Kowalmistrz 18:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

He's the son of his Polish born parents and he was born in Poland too. That's why it says his nationality is polish. Kingjeff 18:16, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

see the previous discussion on this talk page about this controversy. He was an ausiedler, and emigrated to Germany under the special laws for people defined as ausiedler. As a comparison, Owen Hargreaves is a Canadian footballer, as he is a Canadian citizen and was born in Canada, he is only a England footballer because he plays for England, he is not an English footballer.

Also, another interpretation of the term. He is not a "Polish footballer", as he has never played for Poland or any Polish club. The closest he has come to being a Polish footballer is when he played against Poland in the WC, and if everyone who plays against Poland is Polish, well then there are a lot of Polish footballers... perhaps Jens Lehmann is also a Polish footballer, as he held a clean sheet against Poland.

So far, I have seen no evidence that he retains Polish citizenship.

--Jadger 06:10, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, if you are born a Polish citizen, it is quite difficult to get out of it. Consider this (from Polish nationality law):

Loss of Polish citizenship

Since 1962, Polish law (including the Constitution) does not allow the government to revoke someone's citizenship. Renunciation of Polish citizenship requires a petition with extensive supporting documentation subject to the approval of the President of Poland. Administrative processing of the petition can take up to several years and the President's decision is final and cannot be appealed in court.

Since we have no evidence that Podolski went through this complicated procedure and thus got rid of the citizenship he acquired at birth, we can be fairly certain he remains a Polish citizen by law. Still, given that he left Poland when he was a toddler, calling him Polish is not justified, unless evidence is presented that he himself desires this. Balcer 06:44, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Who cares about these pointless details. He was born in Poland, lived in Germany for most of his life and now plays for Germany at the national level. We know he was born in Poland but why do all Polish people want some recognition for this? To make up for the fact that your national team isn't what it "could be". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.202.5.244 (talk) 19:45, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

getting a german passport you have too give up all others (usualy?) - so his only nationality is German because of German nationality laws banning double nationality —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.204.109 (talk) 16:59, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Orzechowski demands revoking citizenship from Klose and Podolski http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/Wiadomosci/1,80269,5293215,Orzechowski__odebrac_obywatelstwo_Podolskiemu.html

Well, you can't revoke citizenship from someone, who does not have it. Szopen (talk) 10:15, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Most countries do not recognize the concept of dual citizenship but merely turn a blind eye when their citizens bocome citizens of other countries. Podolski must have been a Polish citizen by birth. Unless there were special provisions in some treaty between Poland and Germany concerning abandonment of citizenship by Polish citizens moving to Germany by virtue of their German ancestry, Podolski could not simply give up its Polish citizenship by becoming a German citizen. It is actually very difficult to give up one's citizenship for any reason. So, barring any special provisions, Podolski in the eyes of the Polish law is still a Polish citizen. Conversely, because the concept of dual citizenship is commonly not recognized, I guess that according to the German law, a person may become a German citizen only if they agree to give up their previous citizenship. And because the German law does not mean anything in Poland, such an act of citizenship abandonment is not recognized by the Polish state. Therefore, the discussion about Podolski's citizenship is pointless because the correct answer depends on from what angle you look at it. His loyalty is with Germany and that is the only thing that matters.128.146.238.235 (talk) 20:52, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I know Germany didn't accept dual citizenship, but from what I've heard, they do now. Same thing goes for Poland and Sweden.

Norum (talk) 17:45, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Politics and sports

It matters not what his nationality is or was. What matters is what kind of footballer he is — and what sort of Mensch he is. Too bad certain politicians (such as Mirosław Orzechowski) on either side of the Oder can't accept that we are all human beings.

Sca (talk) 22:10, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

You are totally right. And Orzechowski was widely condemned by majority of Poles. This guy sits in government offices and apparently has nothing to do so stupid stuff comes to his head. BTW Podolski is great, his left foot is magic. Tymek (talk) 03:31, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

German city name

Why do people add over and over German translation for Gliwice on this page? It can be easily found on Gliwice, there is no reason to add it here (even more so, as it was a Polish city when Lukas Podolski was born there). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Konkursor (talk • contribs) 21:40, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Konkursor, why did you recently remove e.g. Danzig from several articles, violating the Gdansk/Danzig double naming policy? -- Matthead  Discuß   23:09, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

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Was'nt Lukas Podolski actually born in Gleiwitz, Silesia, which came under Polish Administration as Gliwice in 1945 ?

There is much talk about Lukas Podolski, as well as Miroslav Klose and others, having been born in Poland. Lukas was actually born in 1985 in Polish Administered Silesia.

The territory including Gleiwitz, Silesia, German Empire, was in 1945 conquered by Soviet Union, who gave it to Communist Polish Administration.

For Wikipedia to reflect International Law and to be correct it would have to state that Lukas Podolski was born in Polish Administered Silesia, and not that he was born in Poland.

Podolski , Klose and others of native German Silesian families, born in territory under Communist Polish Administration since 1945 conquest by Soviet Union, held automatic German citizenship. Upon arrival in Western Germany they automatically received their German passports. An Observer 9 September 2008

Interesting. Now get a gun and start another war. Haven't we had enough of them in Europe? Tymek (talk) 05:00, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

That makes completely no sense. Podolski is not a German name. Are you Germans so tick that you can't accept that he is from Polish descent, and thus make up things like these? And you always tell Polish people that they should stop living in the past, but you do exactly the same! Stop being such hypocrites. -Thedrunkenpole

"Polish Administered Silesia" is this a joke??? By the time Podolski was born, Gliwice and Silesia were officially in Poland for 40 years. It wasn't just "administered" by Poland, it was in Poland therefore Podolski was born in Gliwice, Poland. The Eastern German territories were given to Poland to compensate for seized Soviet territories in Eastern Poland which the "Allied" Soviets refused to return to Poland. Podolski should not just be listed as a "German footballer" but either as a "Polish-German footballer" or at least a "German footballer of Polish descent". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beckenbauer1974 (talk • contribs) 09:27, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

what is your character? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.133.253.120 (talk) 19:02, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Lol. Apparently I was born in "Polish Administered Silesia" too. Hahahaha. (polskaGOLA) (talk) 01:09, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Imaginary Polish Origin

Podolski is 100% German. During the second half of 20th century, the ethnic Germans in Poland were forcibly Polonized. Still, they remained Polish on the outside and German on the inside. Shannon1488 (talk) 16:07, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

You failed to mention that during the 18th, 19th and into the 20th century Germans forcibly were "German"-izing Poles. To pontificate that they are Polish on the outside and German on the inside is very arrogant and uneducated of you.

I am not being arrogant. I am just saying that Lukas Podolski is an example of a Polonized German who is Polish on the outside and German on the inside. Shannon1488 (talk) 19:22, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Do you have any evidence whatsoever that his last name (Podolski) was originally a German name that was Polish-ized? If not, he's as Polish as any other ethnic Pole. --Criticalthinker (talk) 08:04, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Gliwice/Gleiwitz

Illraute changed his birthplace from Gliwice to the Germanized name of Gleiwitz, citing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Gdansk/Vote#Results_on_VOTE:_Biographies However, this overrides the convention to use modern names only if the person is clearly German. We cannot say that Podolski is clearly German because he says he speaks Polish at home. http://www.focus.de/sport/fussball/em-2012/dfb-laenderspiel-klose-und-podolski-kehren-heim-nach-polen_aid_662183.html Since he was born in 1985 when the city was known as Gliwice and he's natively Polish-speaking, there is little argument to use the Germanized name. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)

Edit request on 12 June 2012

it says hes german when he is polish

80.73.214.11 (talk) 16:59, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm denying the request because he plays for Germany and holds German citizenship. Kingjeff (talk) 17:13, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Polish-born German

Would it not make sense to refer to Podolski as a Polish-born German? This would not only be a good compromise between those who consider him Polish or German - but far more importantly it is factually accurate. Completely disregarding ethnicity (which needn't be relevant in the opening paragraph) it refers to the fact that he was born a Polish citizen and NOT a German one, but now IS a German citizen, regardless of whether he officially holds Polish citizenship today or not. This is clearly relevant as his notability is for playing for Germany's national football team - thus representing a country he was not born a citizen of. The Raincloud Kid (talk) 22:08, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

He is known as a football player. He plays for a club and a national team. Those should be mentioned. His ethnicity is not a factor. Per WP:OPENPARA. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:10, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

For the fourth time, I have not mentioned his ethnicity. It is clear that when I say 'Polish' I am referring to nationality, as in legal citizenship, so you don't need to bring up ethnicity any further. He is known as a football player for Germany, and so his birth nationality - nothing to do with ethnicity - is therefore relevant, isn't it? The Raincloud Kid (talk) 22:18, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

I see. You think "German" here means he's an ethnic German. It doesn't. It means he plays (or played) for the Germany National Football Team. Any mention of Polish in this context is a discussion of something other than his notability as a footballer. So you're the one who's raising the irrelevant information, aren't you? Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:22, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

No, I did not think that describing him as 'German' means he's ethnically German. For the fifth time, this is not about ethnicity. I have literally no idea what his ethnicity is, and I don't care either way (if it's relevant, I'm neither German nor Polish and have no vested interests), so again, please stop brining up ethnicity. And actually no, describing him as 'German' (as in the following quote from the opening paragraph: Podolski 'is a German footballer') does NOT mean he plays/played for the Germany national football team, what it means is that he is a footballer who is a German national (as in legally, a German citizen). While it is of course completely accurate, it is also completely relevant that he was not born 'German' (again, as in a German national, as in legally a citizen of Germany) as his notability is for playing football for Germany. It is not at all the norm that most players who represent their countries are not actually from those countries - it is comparatively very unusual, hence its relevance to his notability. This isn't some kind of value judgement on my part about how 'German' he is - as far as I'm concerned, he is a German citizen and that's all we need to know about his status today - but his status in his early years was as someone entirely (legally) Polish, which is relevant to the notability of someone famous for playing football for the Germany national team. The Raincloud Kid (talk) 22:50, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Revived in 2022

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This was last discussed nearly five years ago. The state at the end of March, 2017 was "is a German footballer". Fast-forward a year, "is a German footballer". 2019-03-17: "is a German professional footballer". 2020-03-30: "is a German professional footballer". 2021-03-28: "is a German professional footballer". 2021-09-23 "is a German professional footballer". Then, while I was blocked, User talk:Rossow99 (talk · contribs) made a WP:BOLD edit to add Poland-born German. This changed a phrase that had lasted well over five years, although I did not check before March 2017. On 2022-02-02 Nehme1499 (talk · contribs) completely removed nationality from the lede, so it had lasted a little more than four months. On 2022-02-23 Atlantico 000 (talk · contribs) claimed that there had been a deletion of truthful information without justification. The latter part is true as no edit summary was provided, not sure it was necessary as this it is common practice to remove nationality from footballer articles when there is contention. This started an edit war that included reverts by Jaellee (talk · contribs), three by me, and one (apparently on principle alone) by Butlerblog (talk · contribs).

So here we are. I believe that the problem started on 2021-09-23 when the longstanding German footballer was changed. At the very least, it should have been changed to "Polish-born German", if it were changed at all, but do not think it needed a change. I have left all of the previous discussions above and would be happy to remove nationality per MOS:ETHNICITY and leave the discussion for an appropriate part of the article, but clearly some editors do not feel that to be appropriate either. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:15, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Assuming your good faith and mine (seriously, our goal is to develop Wikipedia) it would be worth discussing it publicly. Removing the nationality would be in line with the MOS: ETHNICITY policy, and a reference in later sections of the article. However, I opt for "Polish-born German" because: 1) it is wider than the phrase "German" itself, and Podolski himself had Polish parents and was born in Gliwice, Poland; 2) indicates that as a footballer he represented Germany in football, but the origin itself is from elsewhere. Please refer to this issue and support the idea of introducing "Polish-born German" (as you had a different opinion, I respect it), and if not - introducing MOS:ETHNICITY second. Atlantico 000 (talk) 09:10, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

There is long-standing consensus not to use hyphenated/composed nationalities (such as Polish-German, or Polish-born German). Either we put one nationality only, or remove it and explain the situation further down in the lead. In Podolski's case, though, I was wrong in removing the nationality: sure, he was born in Poland, but he lived all of his life in Germany and strictly represented German national teams. It's a similar situation to Raheem Sterling. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 10:26, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

I would remove the ethnicity from the lede. It is sufficient to say for which national team he played. Mentioning ethnicity brings no benefits and only increases the potential for such discussions. --Jaellee (talk) 11:44, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

And Raheem Sterling is presented as the "...Jamaican-born English professional footballer...", and he moved from Jamaica to England in the age of 5, so there is no problem to describe Podolski as the "Polish-born German..." (he moved to Germany from Poland in the age of 2). There is no doubt, that he was born on the Poland's ground. Sterling, as well as Podolski, played for the national team of a contry other than the one in which he was born. Atlantico 000 (talk) 11:55, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Just because the lede of Raheem Sterling includes such a phrase, this doesn't mean that it is the right way to handle such cases. We should remove it from Raheem Sterling also, but at this talk page we are discussing Lukas Podolski and my opinion this article hasn't changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaellee (talk • contribs) 16:56, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

I can just as easily remove nationality from the lede of Raheem Sterling as it can be removed anywhere.

What no one is commenting on are three things: 1) the long-standing nature of only listing German here. Why does it suddenly need to change?

2) No one has addressed MOS:ETHNICITY In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory, where the person is a citizen, national, or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable. For guidance on historic place name versus modern-day names, see WP:MODERNPLACENAME.

Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability. So why is his Polish birth of any consequence? There are some players who play for one nation at a youth or junior level and then switch in their senior year. That is not even the case here. He never played for Poland at any level (although he may have played in Poland as a child or has subsequently at a professional level or even against them at the international level). This feels like Polish flag-waving to me. There's not even any indication he identifies as Polish and there seems to be some evidence above that he does not hold a Polish passport.

3) The football project has long stated that in cases where there is dispute, to remove all mention of nationality from the lede. I am not sure if that is the best option, but it's better than an unjustified and unreasonable hyphenated nationality as is being proposed here. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:03, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Okay, then I opt for removing the nationality from the lead; and thus working out some sort of consensus. However, I do not agree with your statement that his Polish birth has no consequences - he was born there, speaks Polish, currently plays in Poland (Ekstraklasa's Górnik Zabrze), engages in social campaigns in Poland, etc. (I do not want to make changes to the article yet, because there may be other opinions, but if no one removes the nationality from the lead within a few days, I will do it myself). Atlantico 000 (talk) 14:39, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

As one of the editors who was involved in the dispute, you should not assume to conclude that a consensus has been reached. Please let an uninvolved editor do so. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:57, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

You have a problem with replying to messages in the discussion - and this results in misunderstandings. After all, I announced that I would introduce changes after a few days. In fact, I can do it on the basis of MOS:ETHNICITY. But ok, I am waiting until the end of the week for some substantive voices that would be against MOS:ETHNICITY, and if it is not - I am introducing changes (because someone has to, and you are not too interested in it). Atlantico 000 (talk) 08:02, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Please do not assume I have a problem. Stating it is even worse. I have no problems with responding to discussions and I have responded here frequently. There is no expected time to respond. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:58, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Cool, nothing happened! Thanks for all your views during the current discussion. Atlantico 000 (talk) 12:16, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Stop adding your preference. I will request an admin lock if you try it again. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:24, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Try it :) Everything was lege artis here, there was a discussion, it was shown that changes can be made in line with MOS:ETHNICITY. Each of your withdrawn changes will be a sign of your bad will, which admins are unlikely to miss. I will quote you: "The football project has long stated that in cases where there is dispute, to remove all mention of nationality from the lede. I am not sure if that is the best option, but it's better than an unjustified and unreasonable hyphenated nationality as is being proposed here". Atlantico 000 (talk) 07:47, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Requested page protection. You can claim I am editing in bad will, but that is clearly not the case as I have made my position clear. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:19, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

I saw your application and addressed it in the form of an objection. I do not understand your problem, since compliance with Wikipedia policy (MOS:ETHNICITY) has been established, and you yourself wrote that you have no problem with it (hence my surprise). Atlantico 000 (talk) 16:44, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

You objected to your edit warring notice, not to my application for page protection. You do realize that you are changing valid changes to content, right? That's the galling part. I am not a nationalist, and would prefer no nationality in the lede, but 1) others are not of the same opinion, and 2) would prefer a consensus to be applied, and it existed for more than five years (as I showed in my first edit in this section). Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:06, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

If we are to remove "German footballer" then I think the lead sentence needs to mention that he played for Germany, as this is a major part of his notability. MOS:ETHNICITY does seem to encourage noting a person's nationality if it is relevant, so I think German should be added back in.

Also later on in the lead, it claims he "originally wanted to play for the Polish team": I'd expect a direct quote to support this, not an article making an unattributed statement that he "was interested in representing his homeland". Spike 'em (talk) 17:18, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Agree with both points. The source is dead, but perhaps an archive can be found. The "international debut and breakthrough" section is unsourced as well. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:22, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Are we talking about the same source (number 7, from goal.com), as I can open that? Spike 'em (talk) 17:36, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Objection to closing

I wrote to Jkudlick that I do not agree with the closing of the discussion and ask for it to be opened. Atlantico 000 (talk) 18:37, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Atlantico 000, you state Nothing was agreed, yet your edit warring to the article, edit summaries and comments here, makes it seem that you thought that something had been agreed to. You cannot have it both ways. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:04, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Okay, and what does it change that the discussion shouldn't be closed? Atlantico 000 (talk) 19:17, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

You claimed it was closed when you got to remove "German" from the opening sentence. I stated, every time you did that, that an uninvolved editor should look at the discussion and come to a conclusion. That is what happened. The closing editor applied policy and guidelines to the conclusion. It was only then, when your opinion was challenged, that you claimed that the discussion was not actually closed. Do you have a policy reason that contradicts what was written by the closer or are you simply wanting the discussion closed your way? Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:29, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

My reason is that we have weighed the opinion and the opinion of someone new who joins the discussion is not arbitration. It's like someone who says there shouldn't be any nationality in the lead and would close the discussion instead of writing an opinion. It is also strange that the discussion is alive, then I go out for a dozen or so minutes and see that the discussion is already closed and it is impossible to comment. Atlantico 000 (talk) 19:40, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

I would like to further argue that if we abandon nationality with controversial nationalities (e.g. Matty Cash) - and you have no problem with that either - then you should agree and have no problem with removing it here and with possibly other articles - what is consistent with the policy, you indicated it yourself (e.g. this is how the editors decided to remove Cash). Atlantico 000 (talk) 19:40, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

You did not address my questions. Was there something in the closing rationale that was incorrect from either a policy or guideline point of view?

What I like or do not like is not germane to the discussion, particularly since you are cherry-picking comments. To be clear, I stated that I would like nationality removed from all article—every last one of them—however Wikipedia as a whole does not agree. As a result we have guidelines for how nationality should be included in the lede and how ethnicity should or should not be mentioned.

So that you cannot claim something to the contrary, I agreed with the consensus that was in the lede for the past five years and believe that Jkudlick did an excellent job of reviewing the content that was listed and and pointed the relevant guidelines in closing the discussion.

The discussion had truly ended. You had no more evidence that his nationality should be hyphenated, and the majority of editors felt that highlighting only German nationality was all that was merited for this player who made 130appearances for the Germany National Team over a 13-year career with them. I would have liked to have seen the summary clearly state that he does not hold a Polish passport, but I did not see it. Regardless, it was a good decision, not because it agreed with my point, but because it balanced all of the pertinent information with guidelines.

At the risk of further offending you, unless you can offer a clear reason that the closing notes erred, I cannot see a reason for re-opening. I would also suggest that you wait a day before responding here not only to let other editors comment, but also to allow yourself time to come up with a valid objection. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:31, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

I made a decision not to get involved with the article about Podolski for the time being. At the moment, I am able to accept your point of view, but maybe I will come back to this topic in the future. Atlantico 000 (talk) 22:13, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

There is a small issue with the English language, Atlantico 000, that concerns me. You wrote "your point of view". In most other languages, a different word used for second person singular and second person plural. In modern English, it is usually the same word: your. I will assume that you mean second person plural as this was a consensus decision, not my person opinion, or that of a singular other editor, being forced on the group. The reason I mention this is that is that it seems that you want to keep coming back to try to change the consensus. This could be seen as tendentious editing, and is frowned upon. If that is not what you were implying, my apologies for assuming this edge case.

I cannot see a shift to the lede changing as Podolski's career is starting to come to a close, and unless something drastic changes, I do not see a valid reason to reopen it, let a lone continue to revisit the discussion. With that said, do not let my opinion dissuade you from doing what you think is either right or necessary. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:34, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

I meant second person plural. So take it easy, I respect everything that is said here. Thank you for the kind words. Maybe we'll have another chance to discuss it in the future. Atlantico 000 (talk) 22:58, 10 March 2022 (UTC)