Talk:Somali Outlaws

BLP concerns

I have deleted some text and two sources (one since restored). The text stated allegations as fact. Just because there is an investigation, police statement, or even a charge or indictment, does not mean that the allegations are true. An object lesson is Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive970#Minneapolis_child_sex_abuse_ring, which also involved allegations of child sex abuse by Somali-Americans. Please, let's avoid determining guilt before all legal proceedings are exhausted. Kablammo (talk) 22:57, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

And note that the discussion above involves a lot of publicity attendant to charging members of Somali Outlaws with crimes in 2012, which resulted in complete acquittal by a trial court which was affirmed by a U.S. Court of Appeals in 2016, United States of America v. Idris Fahra et al., four years after the 2012 press report relied on here, [1] which I deleted from this article and the person writing this article has now restored. So completely-discredited allegations from eight years ago, which resulted in exoneration of the accused, are now being used to make new allegations of illegal gang activity. Kablammo (talk) 23:21, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for that AN/I link Kablammo. I restored one link to cover an historical factoid that was left uncited. StonyBrook (talk) 23:33, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

I am going to take out the 2012 report. It is unreliable, given the events which happened since. And I do not believe there is a basis for an article here, for the reasons given above and in the previous AN/I action. Kablammo (talk) 23:39, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

I would not contest your deletion of that reference, but I disagree with your contention that there is no basis for an article on this notable gang. We have List of gangs in the United States and List of criminal enterprises, gangs and syndicates, covering every ethnic group under the sun, for a reason. StonyBrook (talk) 23:45, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

I am concerned that the (non-mainstream) sources relied on here continue to go back to the previous allegations which at least in part were unproven and unreliable. But our role is not to decide guilt or innocence, but to report based on actual facts, not allegations. I hope that my request at the BLP noticeboard [2] will bring others in to discuss best practices here. Kablammo (talk) 23:58, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Sourcing concerns

This article relies in part on The Tennessee Star. The cited article says:

Buried in a recent Star Tribune article was the fact that violent crimes jumped from 54 in 2010 to 84 in 2018, an increase in roughly 56 percent. Authorities attribute the violence to rivalries between Somali gangs, such as the Somali Mafia, the Somali Outlaws, the Hot Boyz, and Madhibaan with Attitude, Alpha News reports.

This ties a StarTribune report of increased violence in the Cedar-Riverside area of Minneapolis (a multi-ethnic area of the West Bank campus of the University of Minnesota), to an article by Anthony Gockowski in the Tennessee Star which relies on an Alpha News report attributing that violence to Somali gang rivalries. But the StarTribune article attributes it to an increase in robberies and assaults, with "East African" gangs responsible for "much" of the violence. Our article blames only Somali gangs for all of the violence.

What makes the Tennessee Star and Alpha News reliable sources? Kablammo (talk) 02:51, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

While East Africa has a wide definition, the Star Tribune seems to use the term "East Africa" and "Somali" interchangeably. There are other East African communities in the Twin Cities, such as the Oromo (mostly Ethiopians and some Kenyans), especially in Saint Paul. But putting "East African gangs Minnesota" in a search bar only brings up Somali gangs. What is the point of mentioning the university, are you implying there are East African students in the West Bank campus who are committing gang violence? StonyBrook (talk) 03:58, 19 February 2020 (UTC)