Talk:History of the Jews in Leeds

The Jews of Leeds v. Jews in Leeds

Today I put together the page "The Jews of Leeds" with sources/references to the stories of the Jews of that city. Whilst ending major edits i was twice presented with conflicting versions, and accepted some additions - categories. However I did not see why the title should be changed to Jews in Leeds, which to my ears is a bit curt or comical, like Jews in space. No reason was given. I see that most similar wiki articles use "of" but some use "in". meantime we have ended with one fuller version "The Jews of Leeds" with the first title which I prefer; and I shorter version i.e. with a lot of text / references missing "Jews in Leeds". I hope someone can help and authorise deletion of the shorter article. Thank you. Philip Sugarman (talk) 21:59, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

@Philip Sugarman: I felt that Jews in Leeds was a better title because this would be more consistent with the current format on Wikipedia. I've now looked and perhaps another title I might suggest is "History of the Jews in Leeds", as some articles about Jews take on this title format. Let me know what you think. 747pilot (talk) 23:54, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes History of the Jews in Leeds is fine. Suggest you change the longer version to this and delete the other.Philip Sugarman (talk) 00:01, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

• @Philip Sugarman, 747pilot, and Mccapra: Please sort this out! I was drawn here because one version of the article linked to an article I had created so I was alerted to the link; I then edited to clarify the lead of one version, and discovered there are two parallel articles. It may be that an administrator needs to help, to sort out the history, so that we end up with ONE article which reflects that the article was created by Philip at 15:13 yesterday. It was moved while he was still actively working on it (Hint: {{in use}} is useful to add as it warns people that you are still working on an article), resulting in the muddle we are currently seeing. PamD 08:00, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

For now, I've redirected the shorter article to the longer, to avoid further editing of two parallel articles, but the history needs to be merged to give due credit to the article creator and other editors. I've re-done my edit but there is interesting data to add from 2011 census data for "City of Leeds", "Leeds built-up area", and "Alwoodley ward" which I don't have time to do right now. PamD 08:10, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

expansion of this page

I have added about 85 summary bio to the notable people collection, nearly all fully referenced, esp from Palgrave dictionary of Anglo-Jewry.

Have re-edited demography to be more concise but kept all figures and key wording.

Have been gathering suggestions from the Leeds Jewish Facebook group and various contacts.

There has been a dispute about mentioning the 1/8th Jewish by descent Jack Straw, which has been noted now on the page, and also Arthur Louis Aaron. The latter, despite being noted Jewish by the Association of Jewish Ex-servicemen, has a detailed genealogy supplied by his family which appears to exclude completely that his parents and grandparents were anything other than baptised locals. I have referenced this as best I can.

I will continue to work on the page and am keen to respond to any suggestions Philip Sugarman (talk) 17:30, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

• @Philip Sugarman: I've seen this page develop since having my attention drawn when it linked to a page I had created (probably this one), but I'm increasingly uneasy about it. It seems to be a very large list of people, some but not all of whom are included in List of people from Leeds, some but not all of whom meet Wikipedia's "notability" requirements (as evidenced by their having articles), and who have nothing in common except their religion/heritage and a connection with Leeds. We do not have a "List of notable Roman Catholics / Quakers / Muslims (etc) from Leeds (or any other city)", or a "List of notable Jews from xyz" for any other city value of "xyz", as far as I can see. I can see that a lot of work has gone into this list but I suspect that someone will arrive sooner or later and argue for its deletion. It is also formatted in a rather non-standard way: there are rules for when bold is used (see MOS:BOLD), and for how to format lists, and this article does not comply. I'm sure there's scope for a much broader article about the history of the Leeds Jewish community, its moves around Leeds, its Synagogues, cemeteries, schools and other institutions, but the long list of individuals seems inappropriate. I see we have List of British Jews: it would be useful to compare your additions with that list and add them there if they seem appropriate and are missing, as well as making sure they are all categorised as Category:People from Leeds (I picked the first blue-linked name I found in "Community Leaders", and Yitzhak HaLevi Herzog doesn't seem to be in that category, though, increasing the sample size to two, the first politician Irwin Bellow, Baron Bellwin is in several "xyz from Leeds" categories.) I'm sure there are politico-religious sensitivities to tiptoe around, here, so I'll sit back and wait to see what happens, having chipped in a few population stats etc. PamD 18:18, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

There are also quite a few typos, sentences which don't make sense, dates of living people shown as "(1952-)" where Wikipedia always uses "(born 1952)" (I have corrected some which you have then undone; see MOS:TOPRESENT). ... AH, I see you're correcting some typos as I type, notably Mik Kaminski! PamD 18:29, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

use of blogspot

for Julie Grant's link with Leeds and membership of a Jewish youth club have used a blogspot reference which seems reliable, details fit with other online sources e.g. link with Frankie Vaughan. Happy if anyone has a better reference, i cannot find a biography Philip Sugarman (talk) 18:45, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Split proposal

Pinging for comment @Philip Sugarman, Slywriter, and Cloptonson:

I propose that the section Notable people be split into a separate page called List of Jews from Leeds. I am concerned that the article is bloated and overcited, and a split could help resolve those issues.

I'm also proposing a similar measure for History of the Jews in Kingston upon Hull on that article's talk page.

Lkb335 (talk) 16:16, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

• I'd agree with a split, though I'm not convinced about the appropriateness of the massive list of people in any case (as I expressed above, a while back). There is no similar list for any other city/religion combination, as far as I can see (except Hull, with similar edit history). History of the Jews in New York City is strong on history (and parks) but light on individual biographical listings, as is History of the Jews in Geneva. I'm sure there's scope for a splendid comprehensive educational database celebrating the Jewish community of Leeds, but just not sure that it's appropriate for Wikipedia to be hosting it: perhaps one of the schools or synagogues would support such a project. We have a category system, and that should suffice. But, as I said above "I'm sure there are politico-religious sensitivities to tiptoe around, here, so I'll sit back and wait to see what happens". What happened was that the article grew hugely, with a lot of careful work going into it, but I remain unconvinced that the long biographical list ought to be here. Splitting would be good, certainly. PamD 17:26, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

  I agree with your concerns about the sheer size of the article and proposed list; many of those included are also likely not notable. I proposed splitting this article and the other as a compromise measure with Philip Sugarman, as, in my opinion, large portions of the article should likely be removed. Certainly, in a list format, a lot of the background material included for each entry would be removed. Lkb335 (talk) 18:22, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

  I'll note that, before a split, some cleanup will be necessary; working on removing bloat and overcitation from the article right now. Lkb335 (talk) 19:46, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

• Declaring I am neither Jewish nor from the area so no affected loyalties, I think it is overlong in context with the rest of the article and includes people who (at least currently) have no article in wikipedia so do not fit easily fit the notability guideline criteria. I agree to a split from this article with the History concentrating on chronology and the development of the community.Cloptonson (talk) 17:39, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
• Sounds reasonable to me. RJFJR (talk) 03:04, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
• Support Seems reasonable. scope_creep^Talk 09:11, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
• Support for reasons outlined by Lkb335. –Ploni (talk) 13:57, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

As an update: scope_creep and I have been removing bloat, overcitation, and non-notable entries from the Notable People section, in addition to general copyediting. After that is complete, I'll move forward with the split. We're almost done, I think. Lkb335 (talk) 14:10, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

@Lkb335: @PamD: I've removed three or four unreliable references, leaving two entries with a cn tag. I think they were using the JewishVirtualLibrary links, which is non-RS as an unreliable sourced. They will need referenced when the split is completed. The lord mayor should be fairly easy to fill, but other one I'm not sure. I'll take a look at it nearer the time. scope_creep^Talk 08:22, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

This came up as a random article needing copyedit for me. I have changed (yyyy-) to (born yyyy) as discussed above. Apart from the redlinks, I don't think there are other c/e issues, and have removed the tag. The redlinks are a problem. I've removed a handful who do not look notable, but there are certainly more who could come off, and also some who on the information and reference here do look notable and who could have articles created. Tacyarg (talk) 15:01, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Keep for later use

• Malcolm Chaikin (1923–2012) He became Australia's youngest-ever professor, in textile technology; later pro-vice-chancellor, University of New South Wales, Australia.

• Basil Gillinson (1925–2001) studied at Leeds School of Architecture, and with fellow Jewish architect Clifford Harry Barnett (born 1927) ran a practice in Leeds known for the Merrion Centre in Leeds, and many other landmark UK modernist leisure facilities.

• Stephen Jay Gould (1941–2002) an American paleontologist, evolutionary biologist, and historian of science who organized demonstrations at a Bradford dance hall, overturning a bar on black people.

• Nicola Mendelsohn, Baroness Mendelsohn (born 1971) an advertising executive, currently for Facebook, and non-executive director of Diageo, who graduated from Leeds University in English and Theatre Studies.

• Peter Morgan (born 1963) is a screenwriter and playwright best known for The Audience, Frost/Nixon and The Crown. He studied Fine Art at Leeds University and was later awarded an Honorary Degree.

• Richard Quest (born 1962 Liverpool) is a CNN news and business anchor.

• Jay Rayner (born 1966) son of Claire Rayner is now a broadcaster, writer, journalist, food critic, novelist and Jazz band pianist, in London. Day of Atonement (1998) was shortlisted for the Jewish Quarterly Prize for Fiction.>

• Jon Silkin (1930–97) was a London-born poet, lecturer, and founder/editor of literary magazine Stand. He took a late English degree and a Fellowship at Leeds University, where the archives of Stand are now held.

• Jonathan Silver (1949–97) Bradford-born he studied Art History & Textiles at Leeds. He grew and sold a string of businesses, and developed Salts Mill, Saltaire, as art gallery, performance venue and shopping centre, before Saltaire village became a World Heritage Site.

• Leslie Wagner (born 1943) is an academic economist was Vice-Chancellor Leeds Metropolitan University 1994–2003.

• Alan Yentob (born 1947) television executive and presenter, studied law at Leeds, and was involved in student drama. He later received an honorary degree.

References