Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Australian handball

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Sources exist for the article, if they are reliable or not is something that should be discussed in the talk page. If these sources aren't, then it can be rediscussed in a few months. I'm not going to check if the sources are reliable or not, but given a lack of rebuttal it's a no consensus. I played it, i heard of it, isn't a reason for keeping. Secret ^account 16:55, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Australian handball

Unofficial schoolyard game, no actual sources to speak of. Nothing but a huge list of rules, no established notability or history. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 22:50, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete : You just beat me to it with the nomination. Way too much Original Research here. dramatic (talk) 22:53, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletion discussions. dramatic (talk) 22:53, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Just a list of rules, with no proof that is is professionally practised by anyone. WP:MADEUP seems to apply. Dendodge Talk^Contribs 23:37, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - I attended 15 different schools between prep and Grade 12 (don't ask why...) and this was played in every single one of the Australian ones, but not the British one. It is a ubiquitous Australian game. The article needs sourcing, not deletion. - Richard Cavell (talk) 00:04, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sourcing with what? Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 01:12, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See my comments below. Hpfan9374 (talk) 09:54, 5 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect/smerge to Four square, of which this is clearly a variety. Grutness...wha? 00:17, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete There's no doubt it exists as an informal game played in one form or another by many over the years. But this is a tough one. I just have strong doubts that it can be properly sourced. If not, I don't know how you could distinguish between fact and fiction. Murtoa (talk) 02:26, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge and Redirect to Four square regional#Australian regional rules. WP:MADEUP doesn't apply to this game, which has been a common playground game going back at least several decades within my memory and that of my partner (experience from opposite ends of NZ). Sourcing the Australasian variant might be difficult but I don't think it would be impossible. An enquiry on the Australian/New Zealand Wikipedian noticeboards may help.-gadfium 05:33, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It seems to be called "Square Ball" or "Four Square" in New Zealand, and there a reference to it in Children's Games with Things by Iona Archibald Opie, Iona Opie and Peter Opie (not available online), and in http://www.sporttaranaki.org.nz/content/45/Traditional_Playground_games.pdf.-gadfium 05:47, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, verifiable game that has long since established at least regional notability in two of some of the most prominent anglophone nations on Earth. This is hardly "a" school game in Australia, this is "the" school game in Australia. Not a single school kid will not have played at this at one point or another during their lives. +Hexagon1 ^(t) 08:37, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It makes no difference if you get a thousand affidavits from Australians who have played it, without reliable sources you can't put stuff in Wikipedia. dramatic (talk) 09:04, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am aware of that (it is one of our pillars, after all). I was noting it is an influential part of people's lives and as such I am positive there are a number of sources discussing it. +Hexagon1 ^(t) 10:13, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well unless we find those references, there seems to be nothing much to differentiate it from Four Square (which is what I played at school) other than the size of the ball, in which case there is no need for this article. And Four square has at least some sources. (I was surprised to see that it has a professional league, but then there is probably a professional league for tiddly winks somewhere.) dramatic (talk) 20:41, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Touché. I retain my keep vote, per Hpfan9374's excellent points. +Hexagon1 ^(t) 13:21, 5 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Keep. Firstly, TenPoundHammer, I understand why you would nominate it for deletion, I'll try to address your concerns.
- "unofficial schoolyard game" - But what is an official schoolyard game? Australian handball could also be classified as a street game.
- "no actual sources" - There is one source clearly listed on the bottom of the article, a news article in the first edition of Excitement Machine Magazine written by Tristan Mahoney and Matt Salleh, that is accessible here. Furthermore, I have recently seen a Logie Award-winning, Australian television mockumentary series, distributed internationally, Summer Heights High which features Australian handball. This could be the primary focus of an "Impact on popular culture" section, for example. However, I will admit, there aren't many online references. I will go to the library to find some written materials at a later date.
- "Nothing but a huge list of rules" - Agreed. The article needs to be completely rewritten, not deleted, with template, cleanup-rewrite and categorized into category Wikipedia articles needing rewrite.
- "no established notability or history" - Notability will come as sources with reliable sources. The sport was 2007 TV Fugly Award Nominee for "New “Sports” to broadcast on TV". The Courier-Mail published a story Fun police go too far in which they received reports that schools are banning students from playing handball, among performing other schoolyard activities. This relates to your first concern "unofficial schoolyard game" in which The Courier-Mail has considered it a schoolyard game or activity. In 2003 and half a decade later in 2008, The Sydney Morning Herald made reference to Australian handball in two news articles, Top of the class and Kids who care. They stated that the game as a new craze in 2003, and in 2008 stated that students were continuing to play Australian handball. This asserts and references a half-decade of history, however there are original research claims that suggest the game has been in existence for at least two decades. Diabetes South Australia has ranked Australian handball fourth in their Top 5 School Yard Games, here. The game has also inspired a short story, My Almost Deadly Handball Experience, written by Mike W of Temple Christian College. Importantly the South Australian Government has issued a document, Strategies for Enhancing Students’ Social Development, in which the author cites Australian handball as a method of fostering social competencies in young children. Aswell, Australian handball has inspired artworks, with the names of various Australian handball moves, Present Gift, Death Rally, Body Lob and Does’nt Make It, Does’nt Count being used as titles of art work at The Kings Artist Run Initiative. Further references, Ande Bunbury Architects, Museum of Victoria Play & Folklore, Jindalee State School Wish List, Coomoora Primary School Newsletter #5108 and Learning Sequence.

In conclusion, pending a "kept" decision, I will completely change the articles structure to comply with other schoolyard games, verify all claims with reliable references and remove all original research, after a visit to the library. Thanks! Hpfan9374 (talk) 08:38, 5 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The key thing would be that you will have to demonstrate that it is a completely different game from Four square (given that there are Australian regional rules for four square documented). That looks unlikely, comparing the articles. If handball is merely an Australian name for Four square, then this article needs to be deleted and replaced with a redirect, and the Four square article needs to mention the localised name. dramatic (talk) 01:10, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Diabetes South Australia states that:

[Handball is] either played against a wall (for two players) or in 4 squares (4 players). Bounce the ball to the wall or to one of the 4 squares and back again. Use points for the wall and for 4 squares players shift from King, Queen, Jack and Joker.

Although brief, it states that the game uses positions "King, Queen, Jack and Joker", unlike four square and that the player must bounce the ball to their square, then an "one of the 4 squares and back again". In four square, the player do not bounce the ball to their square first, and instead directly 'hit' the ball into one of the other three squares. I believe their is written material of the rules in playground and schoolyard games books at my library, I will check it out in the near future. Cheers! Hpfan9374 (talk) 01:29, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.