Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Michal Sela

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep and retitle, with a title to be determined. There is consensus that the sequence of events here is notable, but there is little support for a standalone biography. There is insufficient discussion here to decide between "Death of Michal Sela" and "Michal Sela Forum"; the arguments in favor of the former are slightly stronger, in my view, as that title has a broader scope that could include the NGO; but a talk page discussion is likely needed. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:01, 26 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Michal Sela

[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

A social worker who suffered a tragic death which was reported in the country of her death. She does not appear to be a notable person. Does not meet WP:GNG. Bruxton (talk) 15:56, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Bruxton (talk) 15:57, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Crime and Israel. Skynxnex (talk) 16:12, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - this recently-created article may be more clearly notable as an WP:EVENT article, because the NGO later founded [1], [2], [3], [4], [5] is a WP:LASTING effect with a broad WP:GEOSCOPE. As another alternative, there appears to be support for WP:ORG notability in sources about the NGO. Either way, alternatives to deletion appear to exist. Beccaynr (talk) 19:16, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Would a merge to the NGO be appropriate? This isn't in my field of knowledge (NGO's and the like). Oaktree b (talk) 19:55, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think a move to Michal Sela Forum is likely supported per the WP:NGO guideline, based on my initial search for sources, and this title is a more likely search term than the preceding event of her murder (and a redirect from Murder of Michal Sela to the Michal Sela Forum article can also be created). Beccaynr (talk) 20:23, 18 November 2022 (UTC) - unbold 'move', per comment with keep !vote below Beccaynr (talk) 01:25, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. I don't think that being stabbed to death makes a person notable. If it did there would many millions of notable people worthy of Wikipedia articles. In addition, I have a question: is it possible that there has been a confusion with her near homonym Michael Sela, also Israeli but not a relation as far as I know, who until he died this year was the oldest living distinguished biologist? Athel cb (talk) 10:58, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Discussing alternatives to deletion is within deletion policy, because If editing can improve the page, this should be done rather than deleting the page, but there appears to be no confusion between a dead male scientist who lived for a long time and a woman whose untimely death from domestic violence has had notable impacts documented by multiple independent and reliable sources over time. Additional sources include Wired, and national coverage of political impacts and an exhibition at the UN. Alternatives to deletion include refocusing the article on the NGO founded after her death, or refocusing the article on her murder, because sources can support articles under different notability guidelines (which do not include subjective importance). Beccaynr (talk) 11:49, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Unlike victims of terrorist attacks, victims of domestic abuse - like victims of professional criminals - are typically murdered one at a time. This creates a situation where domestic murders often are not notable. Because it can happen to anyone, the victim is on average NN. The murder itself receives limited attention, in general and especially over time. Sometimes a murder sticks out and serves as of a wakeup call for society or, more sensationally, the murderer disappears and the search becomes a major news item, or it is a complex or a multiple-victim domestic murder case. In such cases an article certainly can be justified. I will check if any of that appears to be the case here. gidonb (talk) 15:31, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have expanded the article with a focus on notable impacts, not sensationalism. Beccaynr (talk) 22:08, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much for all your hard and excellent work. BostonMensa (talk) 17:03, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What you said. When I was a kid, the Murder of Kitty Genovese was still a popular topic of conversation even though she died when I was five months old. She died at her home maybe ten or twelve miles from where I lived, in a very safe neighborhood where we often went. Many of her neighbors were witnesses yet no one called the police and from what I remember, at least initially, no one wanted to talk to the police. By the time I was maybe ten, there had been TV movies amd I suspect books about her death. I do know her death was constantly in the news. Her death basically terrified me. The main lesson I learned was things like being aware of my surroundings.

the reason I am bringing this up was initially, I was not going to continue with the article because I realized she was not notable as a social worker But as others have mentioned, her death, through her sister especially, has a tremendous legacy. Too many people don’t like to discuss things like domestic violence for many reasons but if you want it to end, you must discuss it. I really don’t care if you keep the title as is or if, like Kitty Genovese, you change it to murder of …. But I do care that it stays. Sunshine is the best disinfectant. BostonMensa (talk) 17:02, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Based on my research, I think the balance of the sources favor refocusing and retitling the article Michal Sela Forum, because the organization appears to have the most WP:SUSTAINED coverage. The limited information that appears to be available about Sela personally and about her murder can be incorporated into a Background or History section in a refocused article. In general, WP:MURDEROF articles may focus on sensationalized and gruesome content that can be problematic per WP:NOTNEWS and possibly WP:BDP, and given the coverage available here, this seems to be a significant risk due to the tabloid-style coverage of the early developments in the case and court proceedings. I also considered writing an article about the NGO, but doing this during this AfD may create a WP:FAIT situation. Userfication is another option if there are concerns about WP:NGO notability - I continue to find various announcements of activities that suggest if notability of the organization is not fully supported at this time, it likely will be in the near future. Beccaynr (talk) 17:52, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As an update, ~~after I found and added significant coverage from a 2022 book to the article,~~ I think WP:NGO notability is supported for the Michal Sela Forum, and a separate article could be created, because the amount of content about the Forum seems WP:UNDUE for a BLP (or event) article, and it seems more helpful for readers looking for information about the organization. For this article, there appears to be limited reliable biographical information available about Sela, but she has some WP:BASIC notability due the high-profile murder trial, public advocacy by her family, public education campaigns, and the work of the Forum that followed her death, so I think keep is a reasonable outcome for this article, even with a substantial amount of content moved to a separate article about the Forum. Beccaynr (talk) 01:24, 23 November 2022 (UTC) - update comment after removal of predatory publisher source Beccaynr (talk) 05:41, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Her death led to a change of The Guardianship Law, so she has a lasting impact on society. Then the forum was created, which adds to the impact. In the context there being three things about her, death, law, focus, that's enough for me. I'm adopting WP:COAL so won't be monitoring this page. CT55555 (talk) 00:03, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. This is one of these exceptions, mentioned in my comment above, where a single murder of an NN person created such waves that keep is easily justified. Kudos to the creators and contributors for adding an important article to Enwiki! My modest help: I added the name in Hebrew, connected the article to the excellent article in Hebrew that has additional sources, and moved some stuff around. My recommendations: rename to Muder of Michal Sela, do NOT move to Michal Sela Forum that covers only some of the legacy. Translate at the very least the section on the murder itself from Hewiki. Make the subsection on Michal Sela Forum a bit less wordy. I can make all or some of these changes after the article is kept, just as I just did here. Whatever rolls out. gidonb (talk) 08:10, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and Move, based on the discussion above, to a "Death of" article. Bearian (talk) 16:25, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment with consideration of the direction of this discussion, I have started Draft:Michal Sela Forum. I think the question of whether the article being discussed here is kept with its current name or moved to a Murder of or Death of title can be an editorial decision determined by later consensus. This may be one of the first articles that contends with the notability of someone who has been 'recreated' by artificial intelligence for a public education campaign [6] after their death. Beccaynr (talk) 16:58, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why not wait for the conclusion of this discussion first? Recent opinions were simple keeps and/or requests to move by death of. gidonb (talk) 02:36, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A few reasons - the discussion is trending towards either the current title or a Murder of or Death of article, with a consensus at least developing about the notability of this article. From my view, the establishment of the notable Michal Sela Forum is part of the support for this article, even if the MSF has its own article. Your comment above about a need to Make the subsection on Michal Sela Forum a bit less wordy also encouraged me to start drafting, because I think there is more to add about the organization from the sources. I have also conducted a lot of research while developing my perspective on this article, and drafting tends to be easier when the work is fresh in my mind. Beccaynr (talk) 03:04, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The description of the Forum is wordy, for example, in the quote from Wired. It's possible to say the same with fewer words and finish stronger. I don't think that we should spread this content over multiple articles right now. The fact that we know more should not always lead to more text or articles. Always ask yourself if something is missing, rather than if you know something else. gidonb (talk) 13:38, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

From my view, The Michal Sela Forum is a notable organization, and it seems to be WP:UNDUE, a WP:COATRACK, and potentially a disservice to readers and editors to continue developing information about MSF in an article about Sela, her murder, and various impacts independent from the organization (i.e. the reasons to oppose moving this article to the title Michal Sela Forum). I write based on the sources, not based on what I think is missing (other than generally as a member of Women in Red), and I think both articles can stand on their own and support each other, and it improves the encyclopedia to have both. Beccaynr (talk) 14:58, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.