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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Despite the verbosity of some participants, this AfD basically seems to boil down to two positions: one claiming the subject is notable due to significant coverage in reliable, independent sources, the other claiming she is not notable by virtue of her awards and achievments being fairly minor. Leaving aside the question of whether being a young web designer is a notable achievement, the fact remains that the Keep arguments are grounded in established policy, whilst the Delete ones are not. If the policy is flawed, that's a discussion for Wikipedia talk:Notability, not here. AfD closures are decided on existing policy, and the existing policy, as explained by the commentators below, calls for the article to be kept. Yunshui 雲‍水 06:53, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sreelakshmi Suresh

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AfDs for this article:
Sreelakshmi Suresh (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Please refer the Talk page of this article - under the 'Disputed Again' sub heading.

Please let me know if you prefer it to be continued in this page instead.

--LVerina (talk) 12:04, 13 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep - I would like to point out that this nomination process happens every 4-6 months with the same net result. This being the 4th nomination. I also have questions about this nominator creating a single purpose account but who clearly possess in-depth knowledge about this article and the AfD process. With out making a direct accusation through a check user process, the time spent analysis this article seems consistent with previous AfD nominators. Mkdwtalk 07:40, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]


To Mkdw - Honestly I was expecting your 'Keep' vote and the comment. So no surprise on that! Anyway, coming back to the topic. Regarding my identity. Yes, I did fairly good research - that includes all previous AfD process discussions as well - and I have my findings and facts well explained in the sub section of the article discussion page. Does my identity matters more on Wikipedia or the quality of articles and the points I made? I know your contributions to Wikipedia and I know how long you are in Wikipedia. Anyone goes to your talk page and contribution list can find out it. Giving all respect to that, I politely disagree with many of your comments, yes, that includes those in the previous AfD process discussions as well.

I have a few questions for you. Yes, this is not an interrogation, you are not obliged to answer any of these, you can very well ignore everything and go ahead with not just the 'keep' vote but also to end this AfD process discussion and to retain the article as it is. But I am here to prove why the article does not deserve a place in Wikipedia. I am ready to go to any extend to prove that. I am almost sure in which direction this discussion goes, but I am not going to give up. As I mentioned above and also in the article discussion page, I did quite a good research in this matter, and I am not someone who agree on the 'Keep' vote just because the article is here in the Wikipedia for years. An article remains here for years, remains even after 3 AfD process discussions does not prove that it deserve a place in the Wikipedia. I very politely request you, and to all those who prefer to retain the article, to go through the points I posted first before making your comments and votes. You can read them here (link to article discussion page).

My questions

  1. Did you find any point I mentioned as wrong or baseless or not related to the article?
  3. The entire story is very well explained there, starting from Microsoft FrontPage, then the so called 'International Awards' which are merely the 'web badges' which anyone can acquire in a matter of seconds, without even making payment, then every single newspaper article, video interviews and finally few actual awards and then the Wikipedia entry. It is not a fabricated story, you need not believe anything as it is. I provided links, sources and google is there to check each and every single point I made in the page.
  5. Now, forgetting everything, and just blindly believing the claims by the people behind this girl, still the article deserve a Wikipedia entry? At present the article goes like this - "one of the youngest award winning web designers in the world". As I mentioned before, millions of software companies out there make millions of software tools and all youngsters who use it for the first time, they all can get these web badges which was referred by the media as 'International awards'. Do they all deserve a page in Wikipedia? You will still support the point of argument then?
  7. I still do not understand on what basis you support the article. Every time (referring the previous AfD process discussions) you suggest the people who found the article has no value to edit the article! That is quite surprising, especially from a person who is a veteran in Wikipedia and has vast knowledge on the Wikipedia ethics and aim. Just because someone wanted to promote a girl with just the normal skills created a Wikipedia entry and just because it was kept for years as the majority were not interested to check the facts, we have to keep the Wikipedia entry? Sorry I failed to find the logic here.

It was discussed many times, but to repeat -

  • Microsoft Frontpage is one of the most easiest tool for making web pages, even for kids and a youngster make few pages using it does not make them 'Exceptional'. If anybody out there do not know much about 'Microsoft Frontpage', please google for the basics. It does not even involve the actual HTML coding which is done for creating a web page. It is a WYSIWYG editor!
  • Everything started with the '30 International awards' received by this girl which are merely 'web badges' that anyone can acquire in a matter of seconds, sitting at home. Nobody is going to verify anything, nobody is going to deny your claim for such a badge, and almost all those who apply get one! The media made it sounds like 'U S Award', 'U K Award' and so on. anybody has any question on this, let me know, I am here to give the links, details and explanation on every single 'International award' listed.
  • Almost all the news articles, video interviews and unfortunately even the Wikipedia mention something called - 'American Association of Webmasters'. As mentioned by another Wikipedia user in the deletion discussion, it is nothing but an award dispensing agency. Only difference is, we need to pay online to get the award. And it is not difficult at all. From their own link - http://www.aawebmasters.com/statistics.htm - total awards given during the period of 2002 to 2009 = 27732, total number of applicants during this period was 43081. That is, 65% of the people who applied for the 'award' received it! (copied from my own comment in the article discussion page)
  • The so called awards and the media reports lead to one of the actual awards and it is not at all difficult to convince the authorities especially in the field of Information Technology in India. Only the new generation know about it. The present generation think Information Technology and related matters as something very complicated and there are people who think making web pages is pretty tough and kids making it shows they have 'exceptional' skills! Sad.
  • Majority of the people who participated in the previous AfD process discussions did not try to check the facts. The 'Awards', 'Exceptional Skills of a young girl' etc were quite misleading and can't blame them completely. But it is quite shocking to see such an article still remain in Wikipedia. I believe it is our duty to correct the mistake and to make Wikipedia a place of quality pages and not a place for quantity.

--LVerina (talk) 09:37, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - Happy to address your questions. Unfortunately short on time and will need to come back to this discussion. I think you underplay some of her achievements. Winning the National Children Award for Exceptional Achievement in 2008 is no small achievement and awarded directly by the Government of India. It is on par with North America's Top 20 Under 20 Award. Some of her other awards are more than simply 'badges' and she attended a session of congress to talk about some of her achievements. What I really feel this discussion centres around are articles about individuals that slightly meet Wikipedia's guidelines, but compared to most encyclopedia's would not be a means of inclusion. While this may be seen as a disadvantage by some, I feel it is one of Wikipedia's strongest feats. The article Twitter is my favourite example. Before the website became the giant it is today, we had a small stub article on a promising upstart that gained a little bit of media attention. Now this encyclopaedia has the most comprehensive encyclopaedic article on the subject matter that has branched off into sub-articles. The risk of allowing a small stub article in pales in comparison to the massive database obtained on ground-breaking subjects. I am not saying this article will flourish into a Twitter like article, but it meets enough of the guidelines to be included and to allow others to be included that will have the same potential. Mkdwtalk 22:37, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]


Thank you Mkdw. I am slightly optimistic now and happy the discussion is turning into healthy and productive now. And thanks for not taking anything personal as I was bit sharp on my points. I agree with you regarding the rules of Wikipedia. That is the biggest advantage and also the biggest disadvantage of Wikipedia. Though the 'democracy' is a great thing, if people use it carelessly, we will see less quality material in Wikipedia. Same goes when an admin act only as per the rules and not checking the facts.

Coming back to the article. My intention is not to defame any or to underplay any achievements or awards. As you can see I didn't touch the article page, I didn't make any changes, I am leaving it to others. Let the people decide based on the debate. Now, let me answer the questions raised so far.

The international awards. And your comment - "Some of her other awards are more than simply 'badges'". Please refer the link, which is an archived page of the girl's website. http://web.archive.org/web/20090225030711/http://www.sreekutty.com/awards.htm The page list all the so called 'International Awards' and some other awards. A total of 28 awards. The first 22 are the 'International Awards' with the country name in brackets. These acted as the stepping stone to other awards and also to get noticed in the media. You need not believe anything I write about these 22 awards, but please do a google search and you can see all these 22 awards ARE nothing but web badges. And 21 out of them do not even need a payment! You will get all these 21 'International Awards' just by clicking the mouse and submitting the site name. There is no verification, no validation, nothing! And above all, these awards has nothing to do with the nations or official bodies whose names are listed along with the awards! These are awards given by few award dispensing websites.

If you are still not convinced, here is an example: From the above link (the girl's site) - as an example - Webmasters Ink Web Award (USA) . Those who want it in 60 seconds or even less, try this - http://www.webmastersink.com/awards/enter.html Type in some junk values, site URL need not even exist. On next page, you can see confirmation that details has been sent, and same page, you will get a link to the 'award' that you just received. Yes, it is that simple.

Now what happened to the long list of awards in her present web page? That is http://www.sreekutty.com/awards.htm They just got disappeared once people started questioning about the credibility and level of difficulty. The list got shortened now!

Now, coming back on the 'Actual Awards', that is last 6 in the site. Please google for the 5 awards except the "National Children Award for Exceptional Achievement". You will see how reliable or credible they are. They are not by any Goverment and not even any official body. And finally the "National Children Award for Exceptional Achievement". You just can't compare it with any other award including "North America's Top 20 Under 20 Award". I know it better because I know how the system works in India. When it comes to 'Information Technology', the present generation (not the youngsters, but those who are in various positions) does not have a clue about it. Huge majority of the members of Indian parliament, ministers and major politicians are illiterate in the field of Information Technology! Only a few and newly elected members know the basics. I know this remark may lead to some argument, but I stick on it, this is a fact. These people who decide on the 'Exceptional Achievement' are the people who do not even know how to check their emails regularly or do not know how the Indian Government websites work. It is pretty easy to convince these people with the help of this long list of 'International Awards' and the large list of different kind of media quoting it. If the justification to include the girl in Wikipedia is solely this award, then I fear the Wikipedia ethics fails here.

Above all, the main thing comes to the point whether the girl has any 'Exceptional Skills'. Do we have any valid proof which certify any of her 'Exceptional Skills'? And do you really think getting an output from 'Microsoft Frontpage' at a younger age is something very difficult or near to impossible? What does the 'Exceptional Skill' stands for? I fail to understand that core part of the story.

Another point - If we agree on the skills of the girl at a young age, that is designing a website at young age, considering her potential and skills, where do she supposed to be by now? Yes, she is the owner of a software firm now - and no details about the firm and about the role she manages in the firm is known to any! Second one is her being the CEO and director of a company! Becoming a young CEO need any 'exceptional skills'? It is just a designation, that also in a company of her own. Anybody can form a company, nothing prevents people from doing so and they can designate themselves as anything too. That is pretty basic.

In your comment, you mentioned Twitter. I just can't understand how can you compare both? Twitter was an innovation or a new technology. It was a new concept. Yes, it took some time to gain momentum as people were not much into micro-blogging before, and people were not aware of the endless possibilities associated with it. When they became aware of it, Twitter became a hit automatically. Going on the same logic, this girl built few web pages using Microsoft Frontpage years back and where do she stands now? Every recognition she still receive is based on the 'Youngest Web-designer of the World' title! Which is not verified by any. You can see this even in the recent news articles. The media still carry the list of those 22 awards! Sources behind this girl mentioned, she created two major websites and projected those two as her achievements or result of her 'Exceptional Skills' / hard work. The sites are - http://www.tinylogo.com and http://www.stateofkerala.in The first one was mentioned as a 'logo based search engine'. Please go through it and you can see, it is not a logo based search engine, it is just a very basic text search script! Please let me know if you need additional technical info on this. When this was questioned, the girl (honestly I guess) answered that only page design/layout was done by her. And the second site is supposed to be a big portal about one of the states in India - Kerala. Please also go through it and you can see the two major sections of the site - one, the news which comes from various sites rss feeds and second, lot of articles about Kerala which is just copy pasted from Wikipedia. Copying from Wikipedia is ok I know, but no credits were given anywhere and above that, the site has copyright policies! I find that is pretty funny. And vast majority of the images in the sites are copied from other sites. You can try a google image search or similar image search to find that. So there is nothing new in that site and no technologies implemented as well. Same in this case too, I mean her role in these two sites are not mentioned anywhere.

Don't you think all these evidence prove that the girl is just a normal one with skills of her age and nothing exceptional, and someone is behind this, to promote her? Or you still think the girl is some noteworthy person and she deserve a Wikipedia page? Please comment on. --LVerina (talk) 08:11, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So where are we on this particular article? Was expecting a reply/comments from Mkdw and other members out there. --LVerina (talk) 07:35, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You did not add this discussion to the AfD list. You only created the nomination page hence why no one saw this. Please refer to WP:AFDHOWTO. I have relisted this discussion. Hopefully other editors will now comment and be able to progress the discussion. Mkdwtalk 18:56, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Section break

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  • Keep - If she were only covered during that initial spurt, then it might be argued as being just news coverage. However, the coverage has continued with the Hindu in 2008 and 2009. This ongoing coverage is also not restricted to The Hindu as shown by this AsiaOne article. -- Whpq (talk) 14:13, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:00, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Internet-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:00, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:01, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete lot of commercial links claiming through self published source, have cleaned up article removing all commercial and self published links from their own website and blogs like wordpress ,although tried to write to being a NPOV it rather seems their is not much of information to write an article about other than winning national award and a news paper article mentioning that , I would wish for the creator to wait for a while and create the page once their is suffecient exposure Shrikanthv (talk) 06:59, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]


To Mkdw - Thanks for re-listing the discussion - Though I expected some comments/reply to the points I listed above. No problem as I guess you are busy.

To Northamerica1000 - Well, yes, she is notable if we go exactly as per the wikipedia basic criteria. But I believe when we consider factors other than the WP basic criteria or few newspaper links, ethics and facts comes above it. I will leave it to others anyway.

Now, the links you quoted - The main content is all same. Creating web pages (they cleverly omitted the part - Microsoft Frontpage!) for her school and all the so called 'International Awards' which are just web badges. Only actual award she received was the 'National Children Award for Exceptional Achievement in 2008', but I very well explained what lead to it in my previous long post. The 4th link you quoted is exactly same as the third link, the content is copied word by word (excellent example for plagiarism) and the title itself is misleading. "US honor for webmaster girl" United states never honored the person in question. I tried my level best to explain what a web badge is and why it is not an International Award but please let me know if you want me to give more details on it.

To Whpq - I guess you didn't read the points and details I posted above, anyway, to make it short, the story is like this. The girl created few web pages using a WYSIWYG web page editor called Microsoft Frontpage (please note, it is not even HTML coding, which is the simplest and easiest way of creating web pages). The girl/her parents/people who wanted to promote her received many web badges (online web badges which are no way related to any national or international awards, which anyone can acquire by typing few fields, sitting at home, without even making a payment in almost all cases), and using those web badges, mislead the mainstream media who were not aware of how easy getting these web badges. With all the media reports, they projected the girl as someone with 'exceptional skills' and the lobbying lead to one actual award called - National Children Award for Exceptional Achievement in 2008. This is not an ethical way of promoting someone, and I believe Wikipedia should never encourage something like this as it is a bad practice. I am not against the girl in question or the people behind her, but the way they chose was not good ethically.

Also, since you quoted the years, please check where she was and where she stands now. From the still-un-verified-claim of the 'Youngest web designer of the world', she didn't achieve anything notable. That makes it more suspicious.

To Shrikanthv - The article looks better now, but I still see many problems in that. 'The Association of American Webmasters' mentioned in the first paragraph is not any official body and their physical presence is only based on a post box number! No additional info on their existence is available. They are just another award distributing web site and they gave away 27732 when total number of applicants were 43081! That is, more than 65% of the applicants received the web badge - and they still call it an 'Award'! Sad. The same web badge or award is mentioned in second paragraph again, that is under 'Early life'.
Under 'Awards', 'National Children Award for Exceptional Achievement' is mentioned two times.
The most misleading and false line in the third paragraph is - "She has also received more than 30 other national and international awards". She NEVER received any national or international award other than a single actual award, that is 'National Children Award for Exceptional Achievement'. All she received was few web badges and nothing 'National' or 'International'. --LVerina (talk) 11:28, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I did read the overly long material and it is largely irrelevant to issue of how notability is defined for Wikipedia. Whether she is talented or not is not really something that matters, nor is for us to judge. We gauge notability through coverage in reliable sources which exist, and that coverage has been sustained over some years. -- Whpq (talk) 14:37, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]


I understand. As I mentioned before, this is one of the weak point of Wikipedia. Anyone with few newspaper links can get a Wikipedia page as per the WP notability. From the previous deletion discussions, I knew that veterans will go only as per the WP basic criteria and not based on facts and other factors.
Anyway, I see one good move because of this discussion. The original article is well edited now. Still having problems, but better than what it was. Now, the whole article shortens to three things. The girl creating few web pages at young age, 'Association of American Webmasters' giving her online web badge or award, and the girl receiving the only actual award - National Children Award for Exceptional Achievement. I am sure that once people understand the importance and relevance of the 'Association of American Webmasters' which is just an award giving website and not having any physical existence (please google for it, and you can see how important or valuable the 'awards' given by them. All you get will be links of the web badges given by them and nothing more than that.), the reference to it will get removed, and only two points will remain. The web page creation and the actual award. The connecting links between these two will be the un-ethical moves by people behind the girl. Again, this may sound irrelevant now, or may no sound related to the notability of the person in question, but I am very optimistic that Wikipedia users will realize this in future. --LVerina (talk) 16:03, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete It appears that notability is claimed on two grounds: being the youngest member of the american association of webmasters, and the national children award. The first is not really notable since anyone can join the american association of webmasters. The second is a rather weak claim - awards given to children are not really notable when they are given in large numbers (and, the criteria outlined here are really weak). I should also point out that at least one of the Hindu articles is from their Young India section which profiles children and is not an indication of notability. I should point out that WP:BASIC states that "trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources may not be sufficient to establish notability" and the coverage here is definitely trivial. --regentspark (comment) 18:08, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think the point being here is that some are arguing there isn't trivial coverage as noted by at least a half dozen features on their person by notable sources. Mkdwtalk 20:30, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Fails WP:GNG "Significant coverage". There are articles published about many extraordinary people every day, like this child prodigy, but not all are notable. Except the Hindu (which have published 2 articles), no other Indian mainstream newspaper like the Times of India, Hindustan Times or American dailies have not given coverage still. The RS cited mostly deal with "the news" that she got the American award or created a website at a young age. The keeping of the article violates WP:NOT#NEWS.--Redtigerxyz Talk 10:30, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Except for coverage in The Indian Express, The Gulf Times, India Today, Hindustan Times, etc. Obviously Wikipedia has decided those are notable sources to warrant their own articles. Mkdwtalk 20:28, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Please do not advocate a 'keep' on pure technical grounds. Let us try to make Wikipedia little more a credible source of knowledge. Articles like this would bring a notion that anybody could become a Wikipedia Celebrity by just making a news article in the local pages of a couple of national dailies. And what would you have to do for that? Just pay for a 'pay-and-be-honoured' award. If this article would be removed after this discussion, then it still wont honour the hard work that went behind this and the former AfDs. And if it survives this AfD too (most probable), then we should expect more and more 'Wikipedia Celebrities'. Looking into the former AfDs would give a better insight for the participants. Thanks. Austria156 (talk) 21:08, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. The girl's achievements and awards aren't particularly notable in their own right, so the only question is whether there is sufficient newspaper coverage to qualify under the WP:GNG. Newspapers like to print stories about child prodigies, and often these articles are full of hype and uncritically repeat claims as "facts". The coverage in the links provided seems to be pretty superficial, and in my opinion isn't enough to satisfy WP:GNG. It is worth bearing in mind that in the past we've deleted articles on people who had significantly more newspaper coverage than this. CodeTheorist (talk) 21:54, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. The girl' main achievement seems designing her school's website; it is clearly mentioned that her father helped her learning computers; it is quite possible her father also helped her in webdesigning also. The "relible" sourse, the article in "The Hindu" newspaper does not tell much about achievemens of this girl. The subject has to create "more webdesigns" or "animations"(as she likes to learn) and then a new article can be created in wikipedia. A strong delete is suggested.Rayabhari (talk) 04:45, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The thorough checking by LVerina and made available in talk page deserves attention. The claims of award by American Association of Webmasters - they give membership certificates if the members pay money - the fact is published in their own website!! One has to check for details, yes. This article may be the best example of self publishing and "creating sources" (that is what wikipedia needs) and linking all the sources claiming the same matter. This article was originally created and developed by two users - GK00900 and Satmin - and to this date, these two users have not contributed to any other articles!!(suggesting self publishing) - this can be checked in history of the article. The Photo of the subject is also self contributed, as anybody can check(suggesting that the entire article is self publishing material.) It is really a surprise that how this article did not get deleted at its first nomination(at that time, the article was not having citations). The subject may deserve a wikipedia page in future, after better achievements.Rayabhari (talk) 05:25, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Multiple Reply:

To all those who goes in favor of 'Keep the article', special mention to veterans like Mkdw, Northamerica1000, Whpq etc.

The question is, whether we are here to make a large number of article purely based on WP basic criteria and rules or we are here to make Wikipedia a better place for everyone to share and gain reliable and credible knowledge. If we are looking for large number of articles, yes, we can go the automated ways of the rules and basics. With giving extreme respect to veterans like you and to the Wikipedia system, rules and basic criteria, I STILL feel we are all humans and we should think above the rules as well - at least once in a while. If we allow articles like this in Wikipedia, it will gradually deteriorate the reliability of the whole concept. A lot of effort has been put behind every article and of course behind this too. But just as Austria156 mentioned above, even more effort and work is involved in researching and finding the credibility and points against the same article. It is nothing like one is of less importance and other is more important. Both are very essential to Wikipedia and concepts like that. This is my personal opinion. And I repeat, whatever be the outcome of this discussion, I am NOT going to give up. I am not going to make even a single edit in the article in question or vandalize or anything like that. I am here to convince people, with proper evidence and proof.

To Austria156 - I am very happy to see you here. I did go through all previous deletion discussion and I wanted to get in touch with you as well as the people who started the previous deletion discussions. Unfortunately, the first person who started on it left Wikipedia and on your page, I came to know that you are taking a very long wikibreak. That is the reason I didn't contact you. I have huge respect to people like you as we are all here to make Wikipedia a better place, with quality articles.

To all others who are in favor of 'Delete' - Thanks, I am glad there are like-minded people and I am happy people who go through the points mentioned, checked the article in detail and posted their comments based on other factors as well.

Now, coming back to the article, do we really need to mention 'Association of American Webmasters' there? Which is just an award or online web badge giveaway website? Anybody out there found any reliable news source, supporting document or any information about the association? And second, about the line in the last paragraph of the article - "She has also received more than 30 other national and international awards" which is not true and quite misleading. There is no proof or supporting document for this statement as this is something NOT true. I know I am repeating this, but the girl never received any other national or international award. One question (yes, I know this is not a question-answer session and nobody is obliged to answer questions posted) that always comes to my mind is - what is the 'exceptional skill' involved in this? And why the article is STILL in Wikipedia?

Another point about the years passed after the 'achievement'. The girl got media attention more at that time, mainly because, people were not much aware of information technology and related subjects then. Things has changed a lot, and 'Information Technology' is a separate and mandatory subject to learn in Kerala state (India) school syllabus for students now. That includes HTML coding to create web pages too. There are a lot of students who are younger to this girl create web pages, that also writing HTML codes (not like the girl who used a WYSIWYG editor) these days. --LVerina (talk) 07:21, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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