Jump to content

Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2014 December 11

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
< December 10 December 12 >

December 11

[edit]

Category:People from Congress Poland

[edit]
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: reverse merge. – Fayenatic London 10:33, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Merge. I don't think there's any significant difference with regards to of and from here. The of category is more open, allowing for inclusion of - for example - Russian officials such as Category:Namestniks of the Kingdom of Poland. It is also located in the well populated parent category of Category:Polish people of the partition period. Upon merging, Category:Imperial Russian people should be probably retained, but Polish people being an overcat should be discarded. @Aleksandr Grigoryev:. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:31, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • You're right that 'of' can be interpreted in multiple ways. I'd distinguish between 'of event' = playing a role in the event (like with the French Revolution) and 'of country' = in country. So for Congress Poland we might better use 'in' instead of 'of'.....? Marcocapelle (talk) 21:25, 16 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Carlossuarez46: I would propose to pursue this merge for Congress Poland and later on have a batch nomination to rename People of former countries into People in former countries. Would that be okay with you as well? Marcocapelle (talk) 08:38, 20 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:European Union Civil Service Tribunal

[edit]
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. – Fayenatic London 10:37, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Merge. Contains only the article of the same name. I don't know of anything else that could be added to the category at this stage. There are not articles or subcategories for judges or case law. I suggest upmerging it to both parents for now. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:45, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Java (programming language)

[edit]
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename all. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 14:43, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Rename. These were originally nominated in the speedy section under WP:C2B to match the parent Category:Java (programming language), but was opposed. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:05, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:The Daily Show correspondents and contributors

[edit]
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete. Noting that this was deleted in the past after a full discussion. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:29, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: We don't categorize performers by show. Cf. Category:Saturday Night Live cast members. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:49, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The earlier CFD argued deletion per WP:OC#PERF. Perhaps OC#PERF has changed since the last 2012 CFD, since I think it is a stretch to interpret it (as written today) as discouraging categorization of performers by TV series. I don't see how is this different from listing corporate people by their employer, such as Category:People by company?—Bagumba (talk) 02:18, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • From WP:OC#PERF (under Performers by performance venue): This also includes categorization by performance in any specific radio, television, film, or theatrical production It also lists the specific example Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 January 25#Category:Actors by series where, incidentally, Category:The Daily Show correspondents was deleted. kennethaw88 • talk 02:40, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:People by ethnic or national descent

[edit]
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Reverse merge. Again this does not address the delete opinion expressed. There was a consensus on the merge so lets get that one closed. Future discussions concerning deletion or other cleanup can be pursued as needed. Vegaswikian (talk) 17:42, 6 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Following an uncertain outcome of this discussion and a conversation at User talk:Fayenatic london, I propose the "ethnic and national descent" category be merged into the new, main ancestry category. Ancestry is preferable as it removes the need for the descent category to be based on purely ethnic or national terms. It also removes the difficulty in establishing what constitutes a nation and what does not. The usage of ancestry avoids these issues and is more inclusive for things such as Category:People of Liberated African descent‎, Category:People of Caribbean descent and Category:People of Levantine-Greek Orthodox Christian descent. SFB 00:08, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  1. In Category:People of Abkhazian descent, in Fatma Pesend Hanımefendi, parents' nationalities are mentioned in the text and used as descent categories but based on the further article text it doesn't seem to be any relevant for the person himself.
  2. In Category:Indian people of Pashtun descent, in Akbar Khan (director), the person's descent is not mentioned in the article text at all, yet he is categorized as such.
  3. In Category:People of African-American descent, in Alan Blake, the person's grandfather's ethnicity is mentioned as the last thing of the article text, hence not very defining.
  4. In Category:People of Afrikaner descent, in BJ Botha, the person is not quite of Afrikaner descent, because he is just born as an ethnic Afrikaner in South-Africa.
  5. In Category:People of Akan descent, in Osei Kofi Tutu I, the person is not quite of Akan descent, he just is an Akan.
An entire deletion may be too much but I think, at the very least, that we should limit descent categories to new-emerging ethnic groups in a country of immigration, like Irish in the USA or Pakistani in the UK. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:07, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
For years now, Carlossuarez46 has been voting to delete all of the ethnic or national descent categories which come up for nomination, regardless of what is being proposed with them. That's fine, and I admire his consistency, but the approach has never gained a consensus in all these years, and to my knowledge Carlossuarez46 has never done a batch nomination of this entire class of categories to formally propose deletion. But I would bet if one were done, it would not be successful. I used to be pretty sympathetic to Carlossuarez46's views on these categories, but the more discussions I have seen, the less "optimistic" I am that deletion is a viable possibility consensus-wise. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:30, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Good Olfactory: I feel much the same. For me, the biggest problem is that we have more editors enthusiastic about tagging people with ethnic/national categories than we do editors enthusiastic about adding sources for these claims (or removing non-article-justified categories). SFB 18:44, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Good Olfactory: @Sillyfolkboy: Is it solvable by first defining stricter guidelines? Marcocapelle (talk) 22:46, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe not "solvable", since there will always be users who disregard or are ignorant of guidelines for category inclusion, but certainly it might help. Really, as Sillyfolkboy points out indirectly, if users would just not add these categories unless the information was cited to a source, that would be a huge advance and would have the potential of resolving most of the issues. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:51, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Marcocapelle and Good Olfactory: The most obvious idea is to identify this issue as the BLP violation that it clearly is. A source must be provided that either directly confirms that heritage for the subject, or indirectly does so by confirming the ancestry of the subject's known family. Maybe this should be raised on the BLP noticeboard to raise awareness and the requirement stated on each category? I'm pretty sure around 50–90% of the descent tree contents will fail this basic, and important, requirement. SFB 07:57, 16 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think it would be worthwhile trying this. At this stage, if they continue to exist, I would be ready to endorse pretty much any attempt to improve how they are applied. Good Ol’factory (talk) 08:50, 16 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The two of you are more experienced than I am and probably know the best channel(s) to achieve this. If you need my support please let me know the right place. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:14, 16 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have not done a batch nomination because I doubt it would succeed because most batch nominations beyond a few fail - even with a test nomination, everyone will come up with "well that's good for X, but not for Y" arguments. These are all useless ultimately and ought to go, so I advocate when they come up, rather than trying a big nom to get rid of them all once and for all as no doubt, some would call it disruptive. Woe be to anyone in the minority in this place - dissent is disruption. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 18:27, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Marcocapelle, Good Olfactory, and Sillyfolkboy: Ought we start a RFC to see where consensus is now, just to see if we might now with WP:BLP in force, etc., get a consensus to see if these are proper. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 18:39, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Would be fine with me. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:01, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'd be happy with doing that. It seems like the best way forward at this stage, to get a broader view. Good Ol’factory (talk) 21:59, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Carlossuarez46: @Marcocapelle: @Sillyfolkboy: A near-perfect example of why I am skeptical of the (entirely plausible) argument for deletion of this tree is this discussion. As soon as a descent category is nominated that has a single user that is a booster (often the category creator), that user goes out and non-neutrally notifies all the other users that he knows will also support keeping the category. With the WP:CANVASS problems, it turns into a mess that becomes nearly impossible for any closing admin to untangle, and due to a lack of consensus and a blighted process, everything stays the same. It can be frustrating. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:56, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
perhaps a centralized RFC would alleviate that, as most nationalistic champions have their less liked groups (keep the Foo category but it's ok to delete the Faa one), and arguments in that direction any decent admin would just ignore. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 23:59, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • reverse merge (or leave well alone). This is a well-established tree and we should let it grow. However An Africaaner should be in an Africaaner category, not a descent category (etc). However that is a matter of purging categories, not of deleting them. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:36, 16 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all categories/subcategories I concur with Carlos, actually. Not really defining after giving this some thought. Also, nationality ≠ ethnicity/ancestry. Snuggums (talk / edits) 15:22, 24 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all categories/subcategories per Carlos, Marco etc. The ethnicity/nationality of a persons great-grandparents (some articles are in at least 7 "descent" categories) is a WP:NON-DEFINING characteristic. If a page is in a "descent" category then the info should already be in the article text (if it is sufficently important and referenced). If some editors wish to capture the info in a more structured form (e.g. that a RS says that notable person's maternal grandfather was of a particular ethnicity) then try WikiData. DexDor (talk) 07:10, 31 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reverse merge these two types of categories. On the issue of definingness, I don't think anyone would argue that being a child of Haitian immigrant parents is not defining for Mia Love, or being the son of Jamaican immigrants is irrelevant for Colin Powell or being the son of a Kenyan immigrant matters not for Barack Obama or being the child of immigrants from India matters not for Bobby Jindal. So it is clear that descent matters in some cases. We need to not allow it to be included in cases where it is mere trivia, but that does not mean we should delete categories, only apply them with more rigor. I have long argued a source needs to exist for applying these categories, and have faced resistance on this. I hope this discussion means that more will join in demanding sources before someone places Abigail Hernandez in Category:Latina actresses with not one mnetion of her ethnicity in the article, or similar cases of original research based on assumptions about a name.John Pack Lambert (talk) 05:46, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment One problem is that if you remove some ethnic tags (Jewish and African-American) you risk being called anitsemitic or racist. Another related problem is some people will return categories and even list the reason why in the comments, citing sources of various levels of reliability. However these people neglect to put the sources in the article.John Pack Lambert (talk) 05:49, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all categories/subcategories - Per WP:CAT. Categories are just the wrong way to display such information, especially as it can get nuanced, requiring explanation, and references - neither of which can be done through categorisation. As for defining, who draws the line on who gets included in a cat and who doesn't? And how many generations do we go back for a certain ethnicity to "count"? And who decides that? Categories are just not the way to handle such information. It needs to be clearly explained, and that isn't possible when using categories. - jc37 01:24, 17 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all categories/subcategories per Jc37's rational. Categories are not the right way to display this information, and keeping them invites contention and unsourced claims. Mamyles (talk) 21:13, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I've requested and admin close this discussion. This has been outstanding for quite some time now and needs to be closed one way or another. I think the conversation goes much broader than (and away from) my proposition. I think it is probably a good basis to start a wider request for comment to see if we can establish in policy a requirement to give an explicit source when putting an ancestry-type category on an article (perhaps as part of Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons?). Even for those who advocate deletion, such a move would greatly rationalise the structure and limit abuse. SFB 20:01, 24 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2014_December_11&oldid=1089087428"