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June 5

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Category:Spanish manuscripts

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Spanish-language manuscripts. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 10:03, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:CATSPECIFIC. I cleaned it up because it was a random mix of manuscripts written in (proto-)Spanish (Castilian), written in Latin but by a 'Spanish' person, or written in Latin but discovered in Spain (WP:OCLOCATION) or preserved in Spain (by collection). Refining it to a language-based category makes most sense. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:32, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename, less ambiguous. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:26, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The issue with this proposal (as with the other manuscript category renaming proposals) is that the category does not refer to language nor to discovery. It refers to origin, that is, this is a category for manuscripts produced in Spain—which is how manuscript scholars (such as myself) tend to approach the subject. Language categorization does not make sense in this context. If you recategorize by language you’ll end up with a massive, and unhelpful, ‘Latin language manuscripts’ category. SJLahey (talk) 12:26, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • We have Category:Latin manuscripts and it seems helpful. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:06, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      What Marcocapelle said. Of course, it is possible to create subcategories of Latin manuscripts (and there already are). Compare Category:Latin chronicles about France: the texts are about France, but they are written in Latin. A lot of items which were categorised as 'Spanish manuscripts' were written in Latin, and not about Spain, but about the Bible or patristics, for example, so their connection with 'Spain' (especially before 'Spain' existed in arguably 1479) is questionable.
      I do not think it is clear, at all, from the items in this category tree Category:Manuscripts by area as a whole that they are meant to group manuscripts by area of production. As I said about Category:German manuscripts: these manuscripts are written in the German language, not necessarily in Germany, nor about Germany, nor by Germans. In many cases we don't even know where it was "originally" written, because the provenance is often unclear. You can say based on internal linguistic arguments in what kind of language milieu the author lived or was influenced by, but that doesn't necessary tell you where the author actually put the pen to paper (or some other writing materials).
      Elsewhere in the category tree, there has been significant mixups between manuscripts by area, language, topic, type, collection as well, so it is not at all clear what "area" even means, and it is explained differently in different parts of the tree. So it makes sense to go for something that is actually WP:DEFINING, like language in this case. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:16, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Association of African Universities

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: listify. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 10:04, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Convert Category:Association of African Universities to article Association of African Universities
Nominator's rationale: Non-defining characteristic; listify in new section Association of African Universities#Members. fgnievinski (talk) 22:17, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Swiss manuscripts

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Works about Switzerland and Category:15th century in the Old Swiss Confederacy. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 10:02, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT. 2 P. These mss aren't necessarily written in Switzerland or kept there (Cgm 558 is in Munich), but they are about (the history of) Switzerland. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:07, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Italian manuscripts

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Italian-language manuscripts. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 10:03, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:CATSPECIFIC. I cleaned it up because it was a random mix of manuscripts written in Italian, written in Latin or Greek but by an Italian, or written in Latin or Greek but discovered in Italy (WP:OCLOCATION). Refining it to a language-based category makes most sense. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:56, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:German manuscripts

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:German-language manuscripts. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 10:05, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:C2C child Category:Middle High German manuscripts, and WP:CATSPECIFIC: these manuscripts are written in the German language, not necessarily in Germany, nor about Germany, nor by Germans. See also Category:German-language chronicles. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:31, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:French manuscripts

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:French-language manuscripts. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 10:05, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:CATSPECIFIC. They are all written in the French language (except the Cartulary of Mont-Saint-Michel, which is in Latin and would no longer fit the category), but not really about France. Armorial d'Auvergne is a roll of arms, BNF fr. 113–116 is a collection of Arthurian legends, and the last two are songs. See also Category:French-language chronicles. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:19, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The category does not refer to language, nor to topic of the manuscript. It refers to origin, that is, this is a category for manuscripts produced in France—which is how manuscript scholars (such as myself) tend to approach the subject. Language categorization does not make sense in this context. If you recategorize by language you’ll end up with a massive, and unhelpful, ‘Latin language manuscripts’ category. SJLahey (talk) 12:31, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Marcocapelle and I answered this question at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 5#Category:Spanish manuscripts. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:18, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Greek manuscripts

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Greek-language manuscripts. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:44, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:CATSPECIFIC. These manuscripts are written in the Greek language, they are not necessarily about Greece or the Greeks, nor necessarily written by Greeks or in Greece, nor necessarily found or preserved in Greece (this is especially true about the Septuagint manuscripts). See also Category:Greek-language chronicles. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:03, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Finnish chronicles

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Finnish literature and Category:European chronicles and Category:History books about Finland. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:45, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT 1 P. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:51, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Scandinavian manuscripts

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:43, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT 1 P, which is already in Category:Swedish manuscripts anyway. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:30, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Swedish manuscripts

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Chronicles about Sweden. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:44, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:CATSPECIFIC. It's better to rename/rescope this to be 'about Sweden', because most of these are written in Latin, not Swedish, and some are preserved in collections outside Sweden. We're more talking about chronicles than the manuscripts of those chronicles anyway. See also Fayenatic and I talking about it elsewhere. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:29, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Middle American pictorial manuscripts

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Mesoamerican pictorial manuscripts. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:46, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Mesoamerica is the pre-Columbian historical-cultural region. Middle America (Americas) is the modern region. This category is about Mesoamerica. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:05, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It sounds good. Originally, I named the category that way following John B. Glass's and Donald Robertson's classic work on the topic, "A Census of Native Middle American Pictorial Manuscripts" (1975). However, the suggested change seems sensible and makes the category more accurate for current readers. Tlakwilo (talk) 22:02, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Glad you agree! Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:18, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Bengali-language manuscripts

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:46, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT 1 P. I tried to populate it with items from Category:Indian manuscripts, but couldn't find any others (except two Assamese ones, but this is a (closely related but) separate language). Parent Category:South Asian manuscripts will thus also become empty. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:55, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Rulers of Monaco

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: no consensus. ✗plicit 07:27, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:C2C parents Category:Monarchs in Europe and Category:Monarchy in Monaco. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:02, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Alemannic rulers

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:24, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:C2C parent Category:Monarchs in Europe. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:00, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the earliest middle ages the words duke and king were used interchangeably to refer to the heads of Germanic tribes outside of Francia. They were monarchs in any case, as they were independent hereditary rulers. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:44, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, not every early medieval duke was a monarch. Nothing is gained by calling the Alemannic rulers 'monarchs'. Nothing. It is useless conformity. Srnec (talk) 00:43, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Meanwhile, 'ruler' still appears to be a vague ambiguous catch-all for whatever anyone wants it to mean. From emperor for life with absolute hereditary power (which can only be challenged by violence) down to local elected mayor for a 1-year fixed term (but removable from office by formal legal procedure if they engage in some sort of mismanagement or misconduct). The list of offices for which I have seen 'ruler' used as a synonym on English Wikipedia still keeps growing. If anyone writes that Bar was a ruler of Foo, I still have no idea what Bar's position in Fooian society was. Fortunately, we have already cleared up most ambiguities to something more WP:DEFINING. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:19, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:4th-century rulers in Europe

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:4th-century European people, etc. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:49, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT 0 P, 1 C. See precedent Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 May 27#Category:1st-century rulers in Europe. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:52, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Norwegian manuscripts

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Old Norwegian manuscripts. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:50, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:CATSPECIFIC To make clear this category is by language, not by country/area, and to match category description This category contains pages on manuscripts in the Old Norwegian language, i.e. from the earliest fragments of the 12th century to the mid-16th century. (...) We might want to trim this description a bit, because it's unnecessarily long and argumentative for simply explaining the category's purpose. See also Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 5#Category:Medieval documents of Norway (which might be merged into it), and Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 May 27#Category:Manuscripts by area (where I argue to change the scope from 'by area' to 'by topic'). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:29, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Hugo999: you may find this interesting. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:56, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:American football teams in El Paso, Texas

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:50, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT (1 C, 1 P). –Aidan721 (talk) 15:33, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Cemeteries in Odesa

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:53, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Dual merge per WP:SMALLCAT User:Namiba 13:17, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:La Ferme Célébrités participants

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:54, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: As celebrity contestants on a reality TV show, these fail WP:PERFCAT --woodensuperman 11:55, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Sports in the United States by city

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:56, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Rename all to match Category:Sports in the United States by populated place. Many of these categories include places that are not designated as cities. For history, see Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_January_19#Category:Sports_in_the_United_States_by_city. Additionally merge Category:Sportspeople by city in the United States and Category:Sportspeople by town in the United States to Category:Sportspeople by populated place in the United States. –Aidan721 (talk) 11:50, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Doping cases in Australian soccer

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Australian sportspeople in doping cases and Category:Doping cases in association football. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:59, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Per WP:SMALLCAT and WP:NARROWCAT, only three articles in the category. Should be upmerged to Category:Australian sportspeople in doping cases and Category:Doping cases in association football. S.A. Julio (talk) 09:37, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Kapiti Coast District

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename, but this seems to have been done out of process. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 10:01, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Medieval documents of Norway

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Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 29#Category:Medieval documents of Norway

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