Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Archive 10

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Archive 10

Comedian removals

A few months ago, I did a cleanup/purge of television hosts, which was bloated in favor of Americans, Brits and Australians. Now I must do the same with comedians. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Eliminate film/TV/standup distinction

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There are just too many artists who transcend those distinctions for them to be meaningful. Examples:

• Bob Newhart is listed under standup even though he had several television shows
• Chevy Chase, Chris Rock and Will Ferrell (and others) are listed under films even though they were also SNL cast members
• Rodney Dangerfield is listed under films despite having a long standup career

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Support, it's arbitrary and doesn't exist on Level 4. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Does feel rather arbitrary Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 14:56, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose mainly because a section with 203 articles is large and unwieldy and generally inaccessible to editors and casual readers alike. This same problem exists in the music section (many of the artists listed under Rock such as The Beatles  3 also have Pop specified as a genre and vice versa, many of the artists listed under Hip Hop/Rap can be listed either under Pop or R&B such as Drake who has all 3 listed as genres etc.) but I think people don't mind those subdivisions because the alternative would be a massive blob. The same problem on a smaller scale happens here. That being said, I do think the classification was done poorly e.g. I would put Rodney Dangerfield in the standup category. However, I find 80% of these classifications accurate as to the main cause of their vitality. We make judgment calls everywhere else on VA5, I don't see why we can't here. Aurangzebra (talk) 09:08, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

   1. 203 comedians at VA5 is way too many; right size would be about half that
   2. There are other ways to organize comedians other than standup/TV/movies, such as by nationality or time period.

   _pbp 14:03, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

• This got four supporting votes, so it's going to pass. What should follow? Maybe we should decide on some new categorisation? We shouldn't lump them all together, like Aurangzebra said. I'll suggest regions like in the film actors section: Africa, Americas (with US/Canada separated from Latin America), Asia, Europe and Oceania. Makkool (talk) 08:37, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

  I support grouping by region. I can make the change in the coming days. _pbp 15:16, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Carrot Top

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IDK if this guy was ever an A-lister _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. nom. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 04:41, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
5. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:42, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Weak oppose, he has a lot more interwikis than anyone else on this list and anecdotally he's the only one I've heard of. Kevinishere15 (talk) 20:53, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Weak oppose per kevinishere. Internationally known as evidenced by interwikis and was a frequent reference in a bunch of TV shows and movies for his distinct look and brand of comedy. Aurangzebra (talk) 01:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Remove Irwin Corey

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Anybody ever heard of this guy? Due to being blacklisted, he was in obscurity. < 20 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Doesn't seem to have left a lasting impact Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
5. I question how some of these people even made it on to the list. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 04:41, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
6. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
7. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 01:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Ken Dodd

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Anybody ever heard of this guy? < 20 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 04:41, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 01:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Alan King

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Anybody ever heard of this guy? < 20 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
5. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 01:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Max Miller (comedian)

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Anybody ever heard of this guy? < 10 interwikis. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Seems to have been pretty important for his time Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
2. "considered to be one of the greatest stand-up comedians of his generation", reduces US bias Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Weak oppose per above. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:42, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
4. per above Aurangzebra (talk) 01:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Nichols and May

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Mike Nichols and Elaine May are both already listed (Nichols as a director, May as a comedian). The comedy pairing has TWO interwikis. May has 31, Nichols has 55. This is one of the instances where the individuals are more notable than the pairing. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Probably redundant Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 01:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Patrice O'Neal

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Anybody ever heard of this guy? < 15 interwikis. Only released a single album _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
6. Surprisingly do know this guy because he was one of the warehouse guys on The Office but definitely not vital. Aurangzebra (talk) 01:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Roy Rene

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Just two interwikis. TWO. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Only really relevant in Australia Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
6. Not sure how we are doing on Australian comedy representation but this is probably not the right person for it regardless Aurangzebra (talk) 01:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Mort Sahl

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Anybody ever heard of this guy? < 20 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Jerry Van Dyke

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Primarily had supporting roles _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
5. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 01:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

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Remove George Wallace (Australian comedian)

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Just two interwikis. TWO. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Also note that pageviews are very low Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 01:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Henny Youngman

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"Take my wife, please" might be VA5 but he himself...IDK. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
5. One-liner comedy has definitely not stood the test of time. Aurangzebra (talk) 01:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Will Hay

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Anybody ever heard of this guy? < 20 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Only a little over 3000 page views Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 23:18, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 01:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Fred Allen

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If we're removing Chevy Chase, IDK how he survives. 20 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Arthur Askey

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Anybody ever heard of this guy? < 10 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 01:36, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Imogene Coca

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< 20 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Tommy Cooper

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20 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Lasting (and current) influence, as seen under "legacy and honours" Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per above, reduces US bias Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Per above. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:43, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Charles Correll

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Amos 'n' Andy is VA5 but IDK if he is. < 10 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Freeman Gosden

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Amos 'n' Andy is VA5 but IDK if he is. < 10 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Dashan

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< 10 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Seems important re: Chinese comedy Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per above, pioneer of stand-up in China Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Oppose per above. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:41, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Bob Crane

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20 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Fry and Laurie

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Fry and Laurie are themselves listed. The pairing only has 2 interwikis, and Laurie especially is known for independent work rather than the pairiing. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Redundant Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Rich Little

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10 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Dick Martin

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Not independently notable of Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In, already at VA5 _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Dan Rowan

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Not independently notable of Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In, already at VA5 _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Garry McDonald

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< 10 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Morecambe and Wise

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Just three interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Highly influential in the UK, and by the looks of it the low number of interwikis is due to many Wikipedias having articles on them as individuals instead: Eric Morecambe and Ernie Wise both have more, and I don't think they would be individually vital on their own Iostn (talk) 07:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

   Wise has 10 interwikis and Morecambe 16, neither of which is much for a celeb _pbp 20:32, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

2. per above, "the best loved British double-act" Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Weak oppose. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:40, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Freddie Prinze

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<20 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Michael Richards

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Mostly known as a supporting actor. His most famous appearances were on Seinfeld, which is VA5, as are Jerry Seinfeld and Julia Louis-Dreyfus. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
4. weak support Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 04:41, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Harry Secombe

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10 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Danny Thomas

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Exactly 20 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Victoria Wood

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<20 interwikis _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 22:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

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Add Agnez Mo  5

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I know we have been on a remove celebrities streak recently (which I am fine with), but we can make room for Mo, who is arguably the biggest pop star in the world's fourth-largest country. See, for example, List of awards and nominations received by Agnez Mo

Support

1. As nom. To non English language musicians. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:50, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Makes sense Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:32, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Kevinishere15 (talk) 18:42, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Maureen Dowd

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NYT columnist. Seems to be best known for covering the Clinton-Lewinsky scandal, but the article does not mention her. 6 interwikis.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:50, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
2. That is a good point. Sahaib (talk) 07:08, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Swap with Matt Drudge Makkool (talk) 18:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
5. Support, Writers & Journalists is over quota and we should probably prioritize recent figures. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
6. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:32, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Swap Florence La Badie with Rachel McAdams

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Plenty of more notable Canadian actresses. Proposing a swap with Rachel McAdams so that a modern Canadian actress can be added, which, as far as I'm aware, we don't have yet.

Support

1. As nom. B3251_(talk) 03:59, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Support remove for now Makkool (talk) 11:31, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 20:55, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
4. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:37, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
5. Support swap, let's go ahead and push this across the finish line. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove István Fekete

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Obscure Hungarian children's author, article does not make him seem vital enough. Writers is over quota as well.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:10, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Magda Szabó, Antal Szerb, and Sándor Márai are better bets to join Imre Kertész  5 and Jókai as far as Hungarian writers go. J947 ‡ ^edits 09:52, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Changing my vote to support removal. Makkool (talk) 15:54, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
4. Support, let's go ahead and push this one across the finish line. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

His book Vuk is very popular and has been translated to many languages. It might be considered an enduring classic only in its origin country, but I would still keep this to lessen Western European and US bias. Makkool (talk) 18:19, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discuss

• Might be worth noting that several Hungarian sources describe Fekete as the second most widely-read Hungarian author, after Mór Jókai  5.[1][2][3][4] --Grnrchst (talk) 15:05, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Joel Osteen  5

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Doesn't seem any more vital to me than Rick Warren _pbp 19:45, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 18:34, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Senior pastor of one of the largest megachurches in the US, gets more attendance than Rick Warren's church. "One of the more prominent figures associated with prosperity theology", from the article. Makkool (talk) 11:23, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

   We have both Osteen and Oral Roberts representing prosperity gospel. If we keep Osteen, we should maybe consider removing Roberts _pbp 18:38, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

   If prosperity gospel should be represented by only one person, then Roberts should definitely stay. He is a too foundational figure to be not listed. My view is Osteen would be the best to represent a contemporary televangelist. Makkool (talk) 11:49, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

2. Why only one.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:55, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Per makkool. Kevinishere15 (talk) 18:43, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Add Lesya Ukrainka  5

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One writer addition for a change. The article calls her "one of Ukrainian literature's foremost writers"

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 18:48, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Seems important enough. 75 interwikis, High-Importance to WikiProject Russia and Top-Importance to WikiProject Ukraine. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:47, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 20:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 17:55, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Norman Granz

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Founder of Verve Records and manager of Ella Fitzgerald  4.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 11:10, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
3. "the most successful impresario in the history of jazz" Makkool (talk) 09:44, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
4. Sure, musicians are still within the +/- 2% cushion, and jazz doesn't always get enough play. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
5. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 21:27, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

1. I've been away for a few months, but I am going to step back here and question why a founder of a non-vital label is that important. At first I put this question in the oppose section. Then, I saw Berry Gordy is vital and Motown isn't. My question is whether we really need a behind the scenes guy rather than a jazz artist that might need a push over the hump.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:28, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

   I don't participate on the People list as much; I just saw one section still needs brainstorming and thought I'd help vote & close in the meantime.

   You raise a good point though. Maybe the best thing would be to propose another jazz musician here and/or some record labels under Companies? It might also convince some people if you mention this proposal in the new one. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 19:30, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

   Granz absolutely deserves a spot here. His Jazz at the Philharmonic recordings are iconic and some of his other recordings such as Art Tatum  5's The Art Tatum - Ben Webster Quartet are considered part of the 'core collection' of essential recordings by The Penguin Guide to Jazz. That being said, I have noticed that jazz is missing a few musicians I would consider VA5. I haven't proposed any because I'm not really sure who I'd want to replace them with and I don't want to bloat musicians any further. But two of my top contenders would be:

   1) Johnny Hodges - Just as notable as Benny Carter  5 and Ben Webster  5 with more interwikis than either of them. Also got his fame from being in Duke Ellington  4's orchestra with an extremely prolific solo career as well. Top-Importance on Wikiproject Jazz.

   2) Gene Krupa - We underrepresent instrumentalists on our musicians list in general, but we especially underrepresent drummers, some of whom are household names but because they aren't the front of the band, we tend to ignore them. We do list arguably the great jazz drummer of all time, Buddy Rich  5, but Krupa is iconic enough in his own right to warrant a spot here. Referred to as "the founding father of modern drumset playing". Top-importance in Wikiproject Jazz. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:01, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Donald Barthelme

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The Writers page is still well over the quota, so some cuts are needed. Only a few of his works have articles, and none of those articles have any interwikis. This author has no sourced claim to any major lasting influence, and he only won a few awards, which we don't list every winner of. I do not see any reason to keep him on the list.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:10, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 18:48, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Deferring to nom on this one, section is over quota. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 17:50, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
5. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:26, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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Remove some sports journalists and commentators

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As previously said: Writers and journalists are over quota. These people have pretty low pageviews and interwikis, and none of the articles assert much vitality

• Peter Gammons
• Jim Nantz
• Peter FitzSimons
• Jacqui Oatley
• Jim Rome
• Bert Sugar
• Sid Waddell
• Ray Warren

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 02:57, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Just so long as you keep Grantland Rice at VA5 _pbp 06:43, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
3. I would be fine with no sports stuff, as I don't consider these things to be vital at all, so definitly agree. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:14, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
4. None of these seem vital. Kevinishere15 (talk) 19:03, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
5. Agree, I can see having a handful of sportscasters for some coverage, but we probably don't need 34. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Move Ch'oe Ch'i-wŏn

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Although we got a lot of reformers on here, their activities are at least tied to their religion. I don't think that's the cause for Ch'oe, especially since during the time he was active, he was a Confucianist, not a Buddhist. I prefer moving him to the politicians page, but since he was apparently a philosopher, I'll leave that option out as well. (We do have people in that page who were government officials.)

To politicians

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:06, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

To philosophers

1. Support move to philosophers. I only skimmed the article, but sounds like he wrote rather than led a religious community, and his political programme seems more secular. It doesn't sound like he had much real political authority or success though (similar to Plato in Syracuse). -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Kevinishere15 (talk) 19:10, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Keep

Discuss

• Whatever the outcome, the article definitely makes it sound like his Buddhism was just a late-life interest and incidental to his career. So he probably shouldn't be grouped under Buddhist religious figures. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

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Add Willie O'Ree

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First black National Hockey League player. Although not the first person of color in the NHL, O'Ree is widely regarded as the "Jackie Robinson of hockey".

Would be added to Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Sports figures#Wingers.

Support

1. As nom. B3251_(talk) 21:43, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Sure, we still have a little cushion in sports figures, and I like hockey. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
3. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:36, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose, Larry Kwong isn't listed who is at a similar level of notability. Sahaib (talk) 21:23, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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New religious movement figures cleanup

Remove Joseph Kibweteere

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Probably listed because he was leader of the Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God, responsible for one of the largest ever mass suicides, but he doesn't seem to be that vital in his own right, outside of the group. I don't even know if the group itself would be vital.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 10:27, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
2. --Thi (talk) 21:18, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:55, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 20:43, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Swap Stephen McNallen for Sveinbjörn Beinteinsson

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Stephen McNallen is an influential figure in white supremacist Norse neopaganism, which is societally marginal and not even dominant among white supremacists. Sveinbjoern founded the Ásatrúarfélagið, which is the largest neopagan religious movement in the world in proportion to the number of followers in its country of origin, with over 1% of the Icelandic population being Asatru, which I think easily places him among the most influential Neopagan religious figures.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 10:27, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Support swap or removal Makkool (talk) 20:43, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Mixed

1. Support removal, oppose addition. Ásatrúarfélagið has under 6000 followers. Kevinishere15 (talk) 21:02, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

   That's over 1% of the Icelandic population, which makes it the only country in the world where a form of neopaganism is practiced by a significant proportion of the population. In addition, both of the other neopagan figures listed are Wiccan, and removing alone would leave the list without any form of reconstructionist religion, which is arguably one of the most significant recent religious phenomena. The Icelandic Asatru Association is also more broadly influential over Heathenry (new religious movement)  5 as a whole, regardless of the low population of Iceland itself limiting its membership numbers. Iostn (talk) 19:17, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

2. Support removal, neutral on addition. I think all the points given are actually a stronger argument for adding Ásatrúarfélagið to Religion than its founder. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Swap Yahweh ben Yahweh for Black Hebrew Israelites

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An obscure figures compared to the movement he represented, which isn't listed. Add Black Hebrew Israelites to "new religious movements" under philosophy and religion.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 10:27, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom Makkool (talk) 20:43, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 18:46, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Mostly ambivalent, but let's go ahead and push this one over the finish line. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Swap Kander and Ebb  5 with John Kander and Fred Ebb

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Other than four other Wikipedias, no one has bothered to write a page on the songwriter pairing itself. Kander and Ebb themselves at least have 18 and 15 interwikis respectively, however.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:05, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Support add, oppose removal

1. Weird vote, I know, and I've never even heard of these two. But they've already made it to VA5, and we're still within the cushion for Musicians, so I say make the overlap explicit on the list. If their articles should be consolidated, then that needs to be decided at the actual article level. Maybe seeing the redundancy clearly on the list will stimulate that (which is the ultimate goal of VA). -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

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Swap Bryan brothers  5 with Bob Bryan and Mike Bryan

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Same thing as above, although at least the article about this pair has at least nine interwikis. (Bob and Mike themselves have 36 and 34.) Admittedly, Kander and Ebb at least makes up for that for not treating the article on their pairing as the main one.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:24, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. They are known for their doubles career and not for their individual accomplishments. Aurangzebra (talk) 13:36, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Per Aurangzebra-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:32, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Per above. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 17:51, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Support add, oppose removal

1. Same logic as above; redundancies like this should probably be resolved at the article level. And as long as there's room, making them explicit on the list may help stimulate that. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

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Add Friedrich Ebert  5

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He is sometimes viewed as the world’s first social democratic head of state and one of the only three “real” Presidents of Germany from 1918 to 1945. His legacy is complex and controversial, particularly concerning the crises that led to Hitler's rise to power.

Support

1. As nominator. To politicians. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 20:44, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
4. I don't especially prioritize the Leaders section, but let's push this one across the finish line. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

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Add Georgi Plekhanov  5

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Known as “the father of Russian Marxism”, he was undeniably an immense influence on the Bolsheviks, who gave him the rare distinction of admiring him despite his misgivings towards them.

Support

1. As nominator. To revolutionaries. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 20:50, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
4. Sure, let's push this one across the finish line. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)

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Swap: Remove B. J. Penn and Chuck Liddell, add George Hackenschmidt

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MMA is overrepresented with 15 athletes despite being a considerably younger sport than wrestling. MMA is skewed toward the recent UFC; all fifteen entries were born in the last 61 years and competed in the last 31. 40% of them are American males; of those, Penn and Liddell appear to be the least notable; having the fewest overall wins, fewest title wins, and fewest interwikis.

George Hackenschmidt was the first world heavyweight wrestling champion, and also invented the bench press _pbp 13:47, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 14:51, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
2. Support Liddell and Hackenschmidt per nom. Neutral on Penn because he seems decently important. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:21, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
4. Sure, let's push this proposal across the finish line. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Luc Ferry

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No info about any kind of influence he's had over philosophy, the section he is listed as vital under. He was also Minister for Youth, National Education and Research of France for two years, but that isn't exactly a super influential position that's enough to warrent inclusion, either. I imagine most of the interwikis are from his cabinet position, and pageviews are not that high either.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 20:47, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
3. Support, article doesn't make him sound particularly impressive. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

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Add Shireen Abu Akleh to journalists

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Among the most notable journalists who have worked during the Israel-Palestine conflict, this would help reduce sysbias in that section

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 18:21, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
2. Seems important enough. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:02, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
3. After some thought, sure, even though Writers & Journalists is still over-quota. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 17:54, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Milton A. Rothman

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Not much claim vitality. He's a professor who founded a sci-fi convention.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:49, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
2. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:54, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 21:15, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
4. Definitely remove, let's push this across the finish line. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

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Moving pirates, outlaws, highwaymen etc from "rebels, revolutionaries and activists" to Misellaneous#Crime

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As it stands the activist section seems to be the default place to dump entries like these, although I am pretty sure crime makes a lot more sense. I've finally attempted to go through and grab the various pirate/outlaw entries listed there and proposed places to fit them under the Crime section. "Piracy" currently does not exist as a subsection under crime, but you can consider creating that as part of this proposal.

Piracy

• Blackbeard  4
• Calico Jack  5
• Anne Bonny  5
• William Kidd  5
• Henry Morgan  5
• Bartholomew Roberts  5
• Zheng Yi Sao  5

Thievery, robbery and hijacking

• Claude Duval  5
• John Nevison  5
• Dick Turpin  5
• Xaver Hohenleiter  5
• Juraj Jánošík  5
• Louis Mandrin  5
• John Caesar  5
• Jesús Arriaga  5
• Joaquin Murrieta  5

Organized crime

• Tiburcio Vásquez  5
• Veerappan  5

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 17:26, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 11:23, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:01, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
4. Support per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 18:46, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

1. Blackbeard is Level 4, so for him a proposal needs to be opened on the Level 4 talk page. Makkool (talk) 12:25, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

   Crime isn't even a section at V4 so I'm not proposing it be moved there Iostn (talk) 14:14, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

   You're right! Pablo Escobar  4 is in businesspeople. That's a tangle to sort. Makkool (talk) 14:52, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

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Add Hans Geiger  5

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"He is best known as the co-inventor of the detector component of the Geiger counter and for the Geiger–Marsden experiment which discovered the atomic nucleus".

Support

1. As nominator. To physicists. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:07, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Notable omission Aurangzebra (talk) 22:50, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 20:19, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
4. Support, even if the Scientist section is a bit heavy on Physicists. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
5. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:23, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

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Add Jensen Huang

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According to Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Archive 6, on May 23, this article had 3 support and 1 oppose. As I stated on February 6 when I nominated this, I think he is instrumental for leading the artificial intelligence charge and continue to believe Nvidia  5 will be the first company to achieve a $5 trillion valuation.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:08, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Nom -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:08, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Support, and I'm actually pretty skeptical of the recent "AI moment". But we're still under-quota for businesspeople, he and Nvidia have clearly made a ton of money, and whatever happens with the current AI boom / bubble, financial historians will probably be talking about him a long time from now. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:30, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Of course. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 21:05, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
5. Supporting while I doubt the impact AI will have but under his leadership Nvidia has been doing great Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 08:21, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

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Add several cartographers to the section "Human geographers and cartographers"

Add Mark Monmonier  5

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Mark Monmonier is a very influential modern cartographer and author of the book How to Lie with Maps. His career has focused on addressing map literacy among the general population.

Support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:49, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
2. I haven't checked, but I imagine cartography is under-represented. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Kevinishere15 (talk) 19:04, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

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Add Bernhardus Varenius  5

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Wrote Geographia Generalis, which is widely regarded as the division between classical and modern geography.

Support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:49, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
2. I haven't checked, but I imagine cartography is under-represented. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Kevinishere15 (talk) 19:04, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

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Add Mei-Po Kwan  5

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Major contributions to geography and cartography, one of the most influential geographers alive, h-index of 93

Support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:49, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
2. I haven't checked, but I imagine cartography is under-represented. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Kevinishere15 (talk) 19:04, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

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Add George F. Jenks

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One of the major geographers/cartographers of the 20th century. His influence was largely focused on the transition from traditional to computer cartography. Full disclosure, this is one of the articles I originated.

Support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:49, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
2. I haven't checked, but I imagine cartography is under-represented. I don't like using interwikis as a major criteria either. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Not in any other languages. Sahaib (talk) 08:49, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Per Sahaib. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:02, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Per above. We might not need so many modern cartographers. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

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Add Arthur Getis

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Like Jenks, Getis is one of the highly influential 20th/21st century geographers. One of the "space cadets," his most famous contribution was likely the "Getis–Ord statistics" that allow Hot Spot maps. Full disclousre, this is another article I originate.

Support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:49, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
2. I haven't checked, but I imagine cartography is under-represented. I don't like using interwikis as a major criteria either. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Not in any other languages. Sahaib (talk) 08:49, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Per Sahaib. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:02, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Per above. We might not need so many modern cartographers. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discuss

GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:49, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Tim Burstall

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Australian film director, that doesn't seem especially vital. Only 2 languages, and low view count.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 00:01, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 00:18, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:02, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:52, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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Move Warren Beatty  5 from Directors, producers and screenwriters to Actors film

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Beatty has directed five films (one of them co-directed) his acting credited are much more extensive.

Support

1. As nom Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 18:54, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 18:56, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 01:20, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. As an actor, he is not as notable as the discussed tightened standards would require, IMO.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:34, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

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Add Yoon Suk Yeol

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Probably vital enough now to be listed. Sahaib (talk) 20:37, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

To clarify for the peanut gallery, dude's been President of South Korea for two years and failed in a martial law attempt _pbp 00:57, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. Sahaib (talk) 18:05, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Yeah, this guy has had enough of an impact by now. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:08, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 20:38, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Makes sense. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:50, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

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Add Hall & Oates, remove Michael Bolton

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Would go under Pop. Surprised these guys aren't already listed. 6 number one hits, 29/33 of their singles were US Top 40 hits, and they are the most successful musical duo of all time, ahead of The Carpenters  5, The Everly Brothers  5, and Simon & Garfunkel  5. All the usual accolades and more: one of the top 100 artists of all time according to VH1 and Billboard Hot 100, inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Songwriters Hall of Fame, and 7 platinum albums.

I don't feel particularly strongly about removing Michael Bolton but I do like to balance my proposals with a possible removal and Bolton is arguably the weakest contender in the same era and genre. Bolton's whole shtick of pop ballad crooning hasn't aged particularly well (seems to just be a relic of the late '80s/early '90s) and Spotify listener stats seem to indicate that none of his tracks besides How Am I Supposed to Live Without You have stood the test of time. By contrast, Hall & Oates are the 213th most-played artist on Spotify right now [5]. I won't deny he achieved commercial success during his time but there are many other artists who were even more commercially successful than him that we don't list presumably because their work hasn't achieved lasting recognition and continued success through time (e.g. Nickelback in rock). Besides 2 Grammys and a handful of American Music Awards, he hasn't achieved any critical success and his lede mentions that he has faced criticism for being derivative and also for plagiarizing work. Aurangzebra (talk) 23:21, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom Aurangzebra (talk) 23:22, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:16, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
4. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:37, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. CopiousAmountofCannons (talk) 11:15, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Billy Mitchell (gamer)

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This guy is so much of a self-promoter that I wouldn't put it past him that he wrote his name here. He is a prominent figure in gaming today, though primarily due to his litigious behavior and internet drama. Even if his records are true, I don't think we should be elevating this stuff.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:36, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Does not seem vital. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:55, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 21:23, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
4. I'm generally skeptical of listing roles like gamers, influencers. etc. so let's push this one across the finish line. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
5. no no no get this off the list asap -1ctinus📝🗨 15:18, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

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Second cull of sportswriters etc

Even if the first cull above passes, sportswriting and broadcasting is still overrepresented, especially from the U.S., Canada and Britain. _pbp 20:23, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Remove Bruce Buffer

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Do we really need two martial arts announcers from the Buffer family on this list? Only 10 interwikis vs. 22 for Michael Buffer _pbp 20:20, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 20:20, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 05:13, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:17, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Don't particularly like interwikis as an argument, but sportswriting / sportscasting can be cut. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
5. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:38, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Frank DeFord

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Just three interwikis _pbp 20:20, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 20:20, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 05:14, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:19, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Don't particularly like interwikis as an argument, but sportswriting / sportscasting can be cut. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

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Remove W.A. Hewitt and/or Lou Marsh

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Neither is known outside Canada. Hewitt seems to be the more notable of the two due to his role in establishing hockey leagues _pbp 20:20, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Remove Hewitt

Remove Marsh

1. _pbp 20:20, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Remove both

1. per nom and Hewitt's Legacy section doesn't provide any VA5-level rationale for his significance (besides some cool trivia about how he may have the first person to introduce nets on goalposts in hockey Aurangzebra (talk) 05:18, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:19, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Let's keep cutting sportswriting / sportscasting. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

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Remove George Plimpton

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Article reads like a puff piece _pbp 20:20, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 20:20, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Cool bio but not VA5-worthy. Aurangzebra (talk) 05:20, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Per above. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:19, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Let's keep cutting sportswriting / sportscasting. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
5. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Bill Simmons

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We already have Erin Andrews and Stuart Scott from the ESPN universe. _pbp 20:20, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 20:20, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Weak support, if we're going to keep any sportscasters, the comments below give some decent reasons to keep this one. I still think sportscasters are over-represented enough though to keep this proposal in contention. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I think I generally agree with you on the rest of these (want to quickly review their articles before I commit to a Support) but I have to Oppose on this. Bill Simmons is not just huge in the sports world (I would wager that your average American sports fan knows who he is due to his outsized social presence) but he is even more vital in the podcasting world. He was arguably a podcasting pioneer, starting a wildly popular podcast on ESPN in 2007 before Serial (podcast) made the whole ecosystem blow up and he sold his podcast network The Ringer (website) for 200 million to Spotify. Many argue that the entirety of the value of the network is derived from Bill Simmons himself and not the content. I feel like anyone that can sell a network for 200 million in podcasting off just their own celebrity deserves a spot here. Also, while validating my claims, I learned that his subreddit r/billsimmons is in the top 2% of subreddits by size. These are musician/actor/athlete numbers, not sports writer. Aurangzebra (talk) 21:21, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

   @Aurangzebra: Were you able to peruse the other sportswriter bios? _pbp 01:34, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

   Got distracted by another thread but done. Aurangzebra (talk) 05:20, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

2. Per Aurangzebra. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:03, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Weak oppose per above. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:18, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

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General thoughts

Somewhere above, either in the first cull or the second, somebody said to remove ALL sports journalists. I ran the interwikis on the 21 sportswriters who will be retained following the two culls (including Simmons, who has been nominated for removal but is likely to be retained), and all but Mike Buffer, Murray Walker and Vin Scully have more than 20 IWs; nine of the remaining 21 have IWs in the single digits. In comparison:

1. The Olympic Games has 179
2. Formula One has 111
3. WWE has 82
4. ESPN has 53

It just looks like sports journalists don't have as much recognition as the sports and athletes they cover. And, on top of that, we have the American/British bias we have in many fields. _pbp 22:34, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

I am not a big fan of using interwikis as a primary metric for vitality. Using it to bolster your claims? Sure. But as the primary source, it is just too finicky. Of course, sports personalities are going to have very few interwikis. Sports and art and music are universal things that anyone can appreciate whether they live in Afghanistan or Zimbabwe. Sports commentary and journalism is inherently limited to your home country - you are likely delivering your commentary in your home language and there is no reason for anyone to translate it. I can probably count on one hand how many sports journalists I know who aren't American. But I don't think this makes it any less important e.g. despite Henry Chadwick (writer) being considered the father of Baseball  4, he is limited to 8 interwikis. And this makes sense; I wouldn't expect his work to be translated into other languages because baseball simply wasn't a phenomenon outside the United States during his time. Now that it is, I think someone considered the father of such a global sport deserves a spot here. If we went solely by interwikis, we would be removing vast swathes of important people, especially those who had major impact in some specific region or unpopular but still notable niche (e.g. businesspeople from the early 20th century or earlier, athletes in lesser-known sports, peripheral figures in entertainment industries such as songwriters or producers, non-public-facing academics particularly those outside of the US/UK, regional pop musicians outside the US/UK, the list goes on and on). If anything, our list should help us identify articles that need to up their interwiki count, not the other way around. Aurangzebra (talk) 02:11, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Remove Boston (band)

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We have an extremely prevalent bias towards classic rock and this section for people is overquota, so I think a few cuts are in order. As far as vital articles is concerned, I don't think these guys could possibly be considered anything more than a one-hit wonder. They're not listed at list of best-selling music artists, they have less interwikis than any other classic rock act like them at this level (38), and they have no long-lasting legacy. Only one song of theirs has arguably been important to any degree, and that's "More Than a Feeling", which has only 15 interwikis and a relatively low ranking on Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Songs of All Time (literally, in 2004, it was dead last at #500). Any other song of theirs has less than five interwikis, save for "Amanda" (8 still isn't very good, though). Furthermore, they have no songs included in the list of best-selling singles, and their only album listed at list of best-selling albums has relatively low numbers compared to anything else, nearing the bottom of the list.

So to summarize, I see no evidence that the band has left a long lasting impact, they have no widespread commercial success, little to no international significance based on interwikis. Any and all success they've had seems to be based on one song (or album, debatably), and it's not a big enough song to carry their placement here alone. I don't see any reason we should list them here.

Support

1. As nom. λ NegativeMP1 00:00, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:06, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Support. At least in the US, they do still get airtime on the classic rock stations for several songs. Also, it could just be an urban legend, but I was told growing up that their sound production was pretty influential (something about being MIT students and designing their own equipment). Even if it's true though, I don't think VA5 has that much room. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
5. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:40, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

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Remove INXS

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Once again, another classic rock band that I'm not sure how ended up here. This one seems just as unimpactful as Boston above, or even less impactful. Their legacy section is only one sentence, they have less than 50 interwikis, and they are not included on the list of best-selling music artists, list of best-selling albums, and they have no songs or albums on any Rolling Stone's Top 500 lists except for Never Tear Us Apart (INXS song), which has only nine interwikis. My same rationale for wanting to remove Boston (band) applies here, but even more so. I see no reason why this band should be vital.

Support

1. As nom. λ NegativeMP1 22:30, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Strong support, nothing against the band, but this is getting into the territory where I wonder if the People quotas should be cut. Also, it's a silly comparison, but as someone that wasn't around for new-wave and only learned about it after the fact, I know way more songs by Men at Work. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 03:32, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
5. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:41, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

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