Talk:Siege of Szigetvár: Difference between revisions
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== Source == |
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There is some text which lacks sources. If anybody can cite it, and move it in the article, that would be great. --[[User:Kebeta|Kebeta]] ([[User talk:Kebeta|talk]]) 17:30, 23 February 2011 (UTC) |
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==== Aftermath ==== |
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* Only four surviving defenders were later ransomed from the Turks. One of them was Zrinsky's nephew Gašpar Alapić (Alapy Gáspár), who later became a Croatian [[ban (title)|ban]] himself, and was infamous for having crushed the [[Croatian-Slovenian peasant revolt]]. Another survivor was Franjo Črnko (Ferenc), Zrinsky's [[Chamberlain (office)|chamberlain]], who later wrote the only first-hand report of the siege. His detailed report, published in Croatian, German and Latin, includes a poignant description of Zrinsky's last hours before the final sortie. |
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==== Depictions in art ==== |
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* Hungarian comics artist [[Endre Sarlós]], made a 90 page comic album, by the title ''"The siege of Szigeth"'' ({{lang-hu|Szigetvár ostroma}}). The comic's approach is neutral, based on historical facts, as seen by non-Ottoman sources and detailed research, rather than the Hungarian epic poem. |
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* One of the canvases by [[Czechs|Czech]] [[Art Nouveau]] painter [[Alfons Mucha]] in the 20-painting work, [[The Slav Epic]], is entitled "Defense of Sziget against the Turks by Nicholas Zrinsky." |
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== Where can I put a lot of information that is useful for this article? == |
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==File:Hungary 1550.png Nominated for Deletion== |
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I placed in this talk section a treasure trove of information about Nikola Zrinski and the Siege of Szigetvar. The data was from old books that I translated to English. [[User:Miki Filigranski|<bdi>Miki Filigranski</bdi>]] deleted it (like he deletes almost everything I post) calling it a "[[Wikipedia:Wall of text|Wall of text]]". |
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If this is not the right place to contribute, then where is the right place to post it? It would have been nice if he had moved it to the appropriate place but he merely deleted it. I know that there is a requirement for "good faith" but it does not feel like I am the recipient of good faith from [[User:Miki Filigranski|<bdi>Miki Filigranski</bdi>]]. |
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| [[File:Image-x-generic.svg|100px]] |
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| An image used in this article, [[commons:File:Hungary 1550.png|File:Hungary 1550.png]], has been nominated for deletion at [[Wikimedia Commons]] in the following category: ''Deletion requests September 2011'' |
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;What should I do? |
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''Don't panic''; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. |
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* If the image is [[WP:NFCC|non-free]] then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) |
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* If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no [[WP:FUR|fair use rationale]] then it cannot be uploaded or used. |
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A valuable resource is a biography of Nikola IV Zrinski by Matija Mesic. The biography is in Croatian. |
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''This notification is provided by a Bot'' --[[User:CommonsNotificationBot|CommonsNotificationBot]] ([[User talk:CommonsNotificationBot|talk]]) 16:36, 29 September 2011 (UTC) |
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I have posted a part of the book here for easier translation. |
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== Pargali Ibrahim == |
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https://koszeg1532.blogspot.com/2023/09/zivot-nikole-zrinjskoga-sigetskoga.html [[User:NikolaZrinski|NikolaZrinski]] ([[User talk:NikolaZrinski|talk]]) 00:03, 26 September 2023 (UTC) |
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Pargali Ibrahim is mentioned multiple times throughout this article, even though he has been dead for 30 years. Szigetvar was n 1566 yet the article makes various mentions of an Ibrahim Pasha which links me to the article Pargali Ibrahim, who died in 1536. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Cauca50|Cauca50]] ([[User talk:Cauca50|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Cauca50|contribs]]) 02:19, 9 August 2012 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:This is not the purpose of the talk page. Maybe Wikiquote, but the source is outdated and not needed. Please slow down on commenting or editing before reading and understanding how editing is done on Wikipedia and gain experience on articles with stub or start level. You're dealing with high quality rated article. Your edits are not constructive here. Sorry, but there's no bad faith by any editor here for reverting your edits or not accepting your advices. --[[User:Miki Filigranski|Miki Filigranski]] ([[User talk:Miki Filigranski|talk]]) 00:15, 26 September 2023 (UTC) |
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== GAR needed? == |
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Article cites sources from the 19th century, and the ref format has grown inconsistent since promotion more than a decade ago. Also, per above, the siege is only a small portion of the article text. The [https://brill-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/edcollbook/title/54630 2019 book] specifically about the siege, which should be accessible to TWL users, could be helpful on expanding the content about the article topic. ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 03:57, 5 May 2024 (UTC) |
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I couldn't care less what other articles do or don't do, per [[WP:MILMOS#INFOBOX]] "Pyrrhic victory" is not used in infoboxes. [[User:FDW777|FDW777]] ([[User talk:FDW777|talk]]) 10:33, 2 September 2021 (UTC) |
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==GA Reassessment== |
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:I didn't read anywhere there that Pyrrhic victory can't go to the info box, those are some of your rules.[[Special:Contributions/93.138.63.81|93.138.63.81]] ([[User talk:93.138.63.81|talk]]) 10:37, 2 September 2021 (UTC) |
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{{Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Siege of Szigetvár/1}} |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 4 December 2024 == |
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::I've alreedy refuted that other strawman [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Siege_of_Szigetv%C3%A1r&diff=prev&oldid=1041932266 here]. It says {{tq|In particular, terms like "Pyrrhic victory" or "decisive victory" are inappropriate for outcome}}. You can deny it says that if you like, I wouldn't recommend it though. [[User:FDW777|FDW777]] ([[User talk:FDW777|talk]]) 10:40, 2 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:::So it says in the source. What will write something that is not? Then it is best to delete the word Pyrrhic victory from the World. You also have a Pyrrhic article so delete it too https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory[[Special:Contributions/93.138.63.81|93.138.63.81]] ([[User talk:93.138.63.81|talk]]) 10:48, 2 September 2021 (UTC) |
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::::More whataboutery. [[User:FDW777|FDW777]] ([[User talk:FDW777|talk]]) 11:06, 2 September 2021 (UTC) |
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::I see that anyone can edit WP:MILMOS#INFOBOX so I could too. It remains to be seen who wrote it. And he should have gotten a consensus for something like that written, so that would be fine.[[Special:Contributions/93.138.63.81|93.138.63.81]] ([[User talk:93.138.63.81|talk]]) 10:52, 2 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:::There is a consensus, that's why it's in the guideline. [[User:FDW777|FDW777]] ([[User talk:FDW777|talk]]) 11:06, 2 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:::: Which we will all change and delete the word Pyrrhic victory from the world. Then a lot of battles need to be deleted https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Holme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Alalia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Marshes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Plevna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jenkins%27_Ferry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Defile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Long_Sault ... etc Look at the discussion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Military_history[[Special:Contributions/93.138.63.81|93.138.63.81]] ([[User talk:93.138.63.81|talk]]) 11:17, 2 September 2021 (UTC) |
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::::: Then Epirote Victory it does not exist, it must also be written differently here in infobox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Asculum[[Special:Contributions/93.138.63.81|93.138.63.81]] ([[User talk:93.138.63.81|talk]]) 11:22, 2 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:[[WP:MILMOS#INFOBOX]], {{tq|In particular, terms like "Pyrrhic victory" or "decisive victory" are inappropriate for outcomes}}. That references say it was is not relevant, it doesn't go in the infobox according to the MOS. Saying {{tq|See article Battle of Vukovar for example}} is just more [[whataboutery]], and is of no relevance. [[User:FDW777|FDW777]] ([[User talk:FDW777|talk]]) 15:33, 8 September 2021 (UTC) |
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I am trying to add a speech by the Hapsburg commander which he made to his troops before charging his enemies outside the walls. [[User:Glockerov|Glockerov]] ([[User talk:Glockerov|talk]]) 14:38, 4 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::Yes in [[WP:MILMOS#INFOBOX]] "terms like "Pyrrhic victory" or "decisive victory" are inappropriate for outcomes" but they are not forbidden, it is not written. Here we have two sources where it is strictly written "Pyrrhic victory". First source [[https://books.google.hr/books?id=OIzreCGlHxIC&pg=PT59&dq=Kohn,+George+C.+2006+Pyrrhic+Szigetv%C3%A1r&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Kohn%2C%20George%20C.%202006%20Pyrrhic%20Szigetv%C3%A1r&f=false]] , second source [[https://books.google.hr/books?hl=com&id=hqkrAQAAIAAJ&dq=An+illustrated+history+of+Hungary+sigetvar&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Pyrrhic+Szigetv%C3%A1r]].Without Pyrrhic this battle gives the impression that it was easily won by the Ottomans. That is why Pyrrhic is written in books and this should be taken into account what is written in the source. As in the other battles written above. "Whataboutery" is not a reason and argument for deletion.[[Special:Contributions/93.136.115.120|93.136.115.120]] ([[User talk:93.136.115.120|talk]]) 03:20, 11 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:[[File:Red question icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done''': it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a [[WP:EDITXY|"change X to Y" format]] and provide a [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable source]] if appropriate.<!-- Template:ESp --> [[User:LizardJr8|LizardJr8]] ([[User talk:LizardJr8|talk]]) 17:10, 4 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::[[WP:MILMOS#INFOBOX]] is the reason for removal, since it doesn't matter if reference says it the manual of style says it doesn't go in the infobox. Nothing to counter is has been presented except whataboutery. [[User:FDW777|FDW777]] ([[User talk:FDW777|talk]]) 06:33, 11 September 2021 (UTC) |
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::::Explain to me why this exception is deletion only on this battle and not on other battles? This is not right [[Special:Contributions/93.136.115.120|93.136.115.120]] ([[User talk:93.136.115.120|talk]]) 06:38, 11 September 2021 (UTC) |
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Where can I put a lot of information that is useful for this article?
[edit]I placed in this talk section a treasure trove of information about Nikola Zrinski and the Siege of Szigetvar. The data was from old books that I translated to English. Miki Filigranski deleted it (like he deletes almost everything I post) calling it a "Wall of text".
If this is not the right place to contribute, then where is the right place to post it? It would have been nice if he had moved it to the appropriate place but he merely deleted it. I know that there is a requirement for "good faith" but it does not feel like I am the recipient of good faith from Miki Filigranski.
A valuable resource is a biography of Nikola IV Zrinski by Matija Mesic. The biography is in Croatian.
I have posted a part of the book here for easier translation.
https://koszeg1532.blogspot.com/2023/09/zivot-nikole-zrinjskoga-sigetskoga.html NikolaZrinski (talk) 00:03, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
- This is not the purpose of the talk page. Maybe Wikiquote, but the source is outdated and not needed. Please slow down on commenting or editing before reading and understanding how editing is done on Wikipedia and gain experience on articles with stub or start level. You're dealing with high quality rated article. Your edits are not constructive here. Sorry, but there's no bad faith by any editor here for reverting your edits or not accepting your advices. --Miki Filigranski (talk) 00:15, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
GAR needed?
[edit]Article cites sources from the 19th century, and the ref format has grown inconsistent since promotion more than a decade ago. Also, per above, the siege is only a small portion of the article text. The 2019 book specifically about the siege, which should be accessible to TWL users, could be helpful on expanding the content about the article topic. (t · c) buidhe 03:57, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
GA Reassessment
[edit]The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • • Most recent review
- Result: I am also not an expert, but I believe the issues have been sufficiently addressed. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:32, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
buidhe added the {{GAR request}} tag in May, adding the rationale "Article cites sources from the 19th century, and the ref format has grown inconsistent since promotion more than a decade ago. Also, per above, the siege is only a small portion of the article text. The 2019 book specifically about the siege, which should be accessible to TWL users, could be helpful on expanding the content about the article topic." below. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:40, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- Hi @AirshipJungleman29, I'm willing to work on this. What would your expected timeline be? I think 30-40 days will be ok here, wdyt? Matarisvan (talk) 18:56, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Matarisvan why did you remove [[1]] valuable information? Emperor Maximilian and 80,000 soldiers were encamped in the vicinity of Győr but did not attack the Ottomans to take the pressure off Szigetvár. Paul Lendvai; (2004) The Hungarians: A Thousand Years of Victory in Defeat p. 94-100 Princeton University Press [1] This information is very important for the battle because no one wanted to help, and the army was nearby.78.0.239.162 (talk) 14:18, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
- @78.0.239.162, this statement along with the source has been added to the article. @AirshipJungleman29, do you think this article passes GAR now? I have removed all pre-1950 sources, converted all refs to sfn, finished biblio formatting and removed cases of MOS:SANDWICH. Matarisvan (talk) 10:38, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
- Matarisvan, User:Trappist the monk/HarvErrors shows numerous errors you might want to look into. Aside from that, what do you think buidhe? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:12, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
- Although it's looking better, the citations in the lead are a bad sign—some of the content in the lead/infobox is not in the article and/or lacks any citation. I'd be surprised if there weren't different casualty figures from different sources. (t · c) buidhe 12:25, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
- Hi @AirshipJungleman29, the HarvErrors should be resolved now. @Buidhe, the casualty figures were cited in the body so I didn't cite them in the lead. I have done so now, could you review the rest of the article? Matarisvan (talk) 16:23, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
- Although it's looking better, the citations in the lead are a bad sign—some of the content in the lead/infobox is not in the article and/or lacks any citation. I'd be surprised if there weren't different casualty figures from different sources. (t · c) buidhe 12:25, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
- Matarisvan, User:Trappist the monk/HarvErrors shows numerous errors you might want to look into. Aside from that, what do you think buidhe? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:12, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
- @78.0.239.162, this statement along with the source has been added to the article. @AirshipJungleman29, do you think this article passes GAR now? I have removed all pre-1950 sources, converted all refs to sfn, finished biblio formatting and removed cases of MOS:SANDWICH. Matarisvan (talk) 10:38, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
- @Matarisvan why did you remove [[1]] valuable information? Emperor Maximilian and 80,000 soldiers were encamped in the vicinity of Győr but did not attack the Ottomans to take the pressure off Szigetvár. Paul Lendvai; (2004) The Hungarians: A Thousand Years of Victory in Defeat p. 94-100 Princeton University Press [1] This information is very important for the battle because no one wanted to help, and the army was nearby.78.0.239.162 (talk) 14:18, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
- There are a couple of unsourced notes, if these are fixed I don't oppose keeping it, although I am far from an expert on this area of history and don't feel I can offer a full review. (t · c) buidhe 13:38, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
- @Buidhe, should be addressed now. Perhaps @AirshipJungleman29 can do a full review if needed? Matarisvan (talk) 11:44, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 4 December 2024
[edit]This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I am trying to add a speech by the Hapsburg commander which he made to his troops before charging his enemies outside the walls. Glockerov (talk) 14:38, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. LizardJr8 (talk) 17:10, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- ^ Paul Lendvai; (2004) The Hungarians: A Thousand Years of Victory in Defeat p. 94-100 Princeton University Press, ISBN 0691119694
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