Talk:Koh-i-Noor

Languages

@CodeTalker and Richard-of-Earth: Why are the sources being taken so strongly here? [Source 1 - (an encyclopedia) says it's from Hindi, while Source 2 states it's from Persian, yet no one can seem to figure out or take into account that Urdu is also a language that has quite a historical significance, especially in the Indian subcontinent. I can understand if the debate was Persian vs Urdu, but I don't understand why it could possibly be Hindi. A quick breakdown of the term, and one can realise that it definitely isn't Hindi. The Hindi language doesn't have the Izafat construction (the i in Koh-i-Noor), which is found in Persian (and subsequently Urdu). Plus, the Hindi lemmas (of which there are many) are transliterations of the Persian and Urdu forms. कूह-ए-नूर (kūh-e-nūr) as it was stated in the note - is incorrect as it should be कोह-ए-नूर (koh-e-nūr) - a transliteration of کوہِ نور (koh-i nūr) (since the Izafat is pronounced as 'e' in both Persian and Urdu but indicated with a diacritic that represents a shortened 'i'), whereas कोहिनूर (kohinūr) - is (likely?) influenced by English, and the fact that it's known as Koh-e-nur and not kuh-e-nūr (since in Persian - it's kuh), it's likely to be Urdu . There might not be a citation to state that it's from Urdu, but the citation that states that it's from Hindi, is definitely incorrect. It's more likely to be Persian or, in my opinion, Urdu. نعم البدل (talk) 02:17, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. See WP:V and WP:OR. If what you say is so, then perhaps you can find a scholar who has written about this. Until you do, it should not be put in the article. I should point out that the diamond is said to be named by Nader Shah in 1740s and per Urdu#History: The name Urdu was first introduced by the poet Ghulam Hamadani Mushafi around 1780. Before that From the 13th century until the end of the 18th century the language now known as Urdu was called Hindi,[30] Hindavi, Hindustani,[33] Dehlavi,[63] Lahori,[63] and Lashkari.[64] The diamond is said to be named by Nader Shah in 1740s. Since Nader Shah was the Shah of Iran, it is more likely a Persian name, but if it was this early Urdu, they might of just referred to it a Hindi. But all of that is original research. Without citations showing an expert opinion on the matter, we just go with what the existing citations say. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 03:08, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

@Richard-of-Earth: I understand your point about WP:V, but I don't understand your second point. If you're saying that Hindi was alternative way of referring to the Urdu language, which I agree with, then shouldn't that mean it is the Urdu language then? Anyways, at the moment, I'm not asking for Urdu to be appended to the text, at the moment (since I'm still looking for a reliable source, and finding it quite difficult to do so since an Urdu newspaper called "Koh-i-noor" seems to also exist) but what I am suggesting is that only the Persian citation should be kept. As I say, the Hindi text mentioned in the note is itself incorrect. نعم البدل (talk) 15:03, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

I meant to imply that early citations will say "Hindi" when referring to what we now call "Urdu" and later citations will just repeat earlier citations. I am fine with it saying Persian and removing the Hindi citation. We might run in to people who will want it to say Hindi simply because they think that will give India a better claim to the diamond. So this point might come to needing an RFC discussion. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 15:48, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

@نعم البدل I reiterate what Richard-of-Earth says regarding WP:V. Verifiability is probably Wikipedia's most important policy. Everything written on Wikipedia must (at least in principle) be derived from a published reliable source. Sources are "taken so strongly" because that is the principle that underlies everything on this encyclopedia. Information cannot be added simply because one editor believes it to be more accurate than what reliable sources say (even if the editor is correct!). The solution is for you to find reliable sources that support what you want to change, and add a reference to such sources when you make your changes. If your source actually contradicts the existing sources it's a bit more complicated; in that case we should present all views and attribute the statements to each source. CodeTalker (talk) 04:14, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Not related to languages, the diamond now has A brand new owner LissajousCurve (talk) 13:32, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Possession of the diamond

The crown jewels belong to the crown, technically now belong to the King, but in practice they are not considered part of his wealth. There are lots of rumors and speculation about who will wear it next, but until something official happens, we should not include anything in the article. Apparently #Kohinoor is now trending on twitter with new calls for returning it, It is not likely to be significant enough to warrant mention. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 13:57, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Distortion of history

Safavid is wrongly given as a Persian dynasty. I would kindly ask you to make a deeper search in history and correct this mistake. 77.244.124.248 (talk) 20:14, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

The Safavid dynasty ruled what was and what still is Persia aka Iran. How are they not a Persian dynasty? Richard-of-Earth (talk) 06:04, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

The Safavids adopted the Persian language. Would that not make them Persian?

History: sources

The following may have useful information:

The REAL history of the Koh-i-Noor Diamond bySyed. Sher Shah, as narrated by his father Syed. Zaman Shah https://sardhana.tripod.com/kohinoor.htm

Koh-i-Noor Diamond – Its History: appendix to Maharaja Duleep Singh, the king in exile by Gurmukh Singh Sandhu https://www.rarebooksocietyofindia.org/book_archive/196174216674_10153989073476675.pdf

Glorious History of Koh-I-Noor Diamond (The Brightest Jewel in the British Crown) by N.B. Sen https://indianculture.gov.in/ebooks/glorious-history-koh-i-noor-diamond-brightest-jewel-british-crown

Mcljlm (talk) 01:30, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Kollur mine

The article says it was mined there before 1350, but according to our article, the mine was not established until after 1500. Safer to say it is a Golconda diamond from the wider area. Johnbod (talk) 18:30, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Popular Culture

It appears in Doctor Who Season 2 Episode 2 Tooth and Claw - held by Queen Victoria. The cutting by Albert is discussed. Airplane42 (talk) 22:31, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

This was discussed once before showing some support for its inclusion, but also opposition. Per WP:CULTURALREFS we need a citations that shows this use of the Koh-I-Noor in the show is culturally significant. Also see WP:POPCULTURE. Just because it is mention somewhere, does not mean such mentions are notable enough to include in the article. So what we need is a WP:SECONDARY or WP:TERTIARY source talking about this use outside of a plot summary. We cannot use a WP:BLOG or some other self-published source, but a published book or article. By the by, Tooth and Claw (Doctor Who) only mentions the diamond in passing. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 19:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Two adjacent sentences directly contradictory

As of the date and time of this post, this Wikipedia article contains this howler: "Although some thought it should have been presented as a gift to Queen Victoria by the East India Company, it is clear that Dalhousie believed the stone was a spoil of war, and treated it accordingly, ensuring that it was officially surrendered to her by Duleep Singh, the youngest son of Ranjit Singh.[44] The presentation of the Koh-i-Noor by the East India Company to the queen was the latest in a long history of transfers of the diamond as a coveted spoil of war.[45]". The first sentence implies underlying tacit assumptions that it was NOT presented to Victoria by the East India Company. Furthermore, the first sentence states overtly, nothing tacit, that it was given to Victoria by Ranjit Singh, NOT the Company. But the immediately succeeding sentence says there was a presentation of the diamond by the East India Company to the Queen. That is so absolutely directly contradictory. Does Wikipedia, or does it not, have staff who have no knowledge of the subject-matter who proofread an article checking not for factual accuracy (which a person with no knowledge of the subject-matter can't do), but, rather, seeking incoherence, bad logic, and nonsense? Or are the readers such as myself who complain constantly about almost EVERY ARTICLE WE READ the proofreaders? I have to say, I report stuff like this less than half of the time that I find it, because usually I just don't have the time.2600:1700:6759:B000:1C64:8308:33BC:E2D6 (talk) 16:01, 27 April 2023 (UTC)Christopher Lawrence Simpson

Semi-protected edit request on 3 May 2023

Under history of the stone, it states that the queen mother died in 2002. Queen Elizabeth II died in 2022. 71.247.209.236 (talk) 17:49, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: The Queen Mother is in reference to Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother, who died in 2002, and not Queen Elizabeth II. Callmemirela 🍁 19:08, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

The Queen Mother was Elizabeth II's mother. Firebrace (talk) 18:06, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 May 2023

The koh-I-nor is no longer in Queen Marys crown. It has been removed for the crowning of Camilla, queen consort, due to controversy surrounding it. MsAdler25 (talk) 05:36, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: see next section 73.93.5.246 (talk) 06:03, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 May 2023 (2)

Change the sentence ‘The diamond is currently set in the Crown of Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother.’ This is no longer true. The diamond was removed from the crown for the coronation of camilla, queen consort due to the controversy surrounding its ownership. MsAdler25 (talk) 05:40, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: The diamond is still in it. Camilla is wearing a different crown (Crown of Queen Mary) 73.93.5.246 (talk) 06:02, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Kohinoor

I say that directly to United kingdom that I want to purchase kohinoor diamond💎 . Prize is that you want. Contact me 2402:8100:2126:C51F:6604:CAEB:CC31:51BA (talk) 00:09, 28 October 2023 (UTC)