Talk:Fyodor Dostoevsky

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Perspective

While the article is a good and fair one (according to it's own lights) I'd suggest it's suffering from a sort of peculiar myopia. That's to say that the fashionable view of FD as a primarily psychological and existential writer pretty well colors and determines its content from top to bottom.

This is certainly a very worthwhile and informed view, but it's far from the only one. I'd hazard a (somewhat informed) guess that FD himself would say that his primary subject was truth and goodness, or man's relationship to such, rather than psychology. If nothing else the startlingly anachronistic nature of the contemporary reading of the term 'psychology' when applied to a writer of his time suggests as much. Which is not to say that he didn't also concern himself with things that many would now call psychology, but rather that it's reductionist to slap that label on him and call it a day. One further imagines that the writer of Demons would be somewhat bemused about his wholesale appropriation by the existentialist, noting their particular affinity for nihilism (vis-a-vis Sartre).

For example 'FD and existentialism' apparently merits its own section but 'FD and orthodoxy' or 'FD and christianity' is mentioned only in passing. Given the fascinations of the author and his almost monomaniacal focus on these philosophical concerns through his major works that's a bit hard to swallow.

All that's to say that this article is very good, but also terribly narrow (and specifically chronocentric) in its orientation. It's much akin to analyzing Shakespeare from a specifically Fruedian perspective, while that's all apropos for devotees of that particular school of thought with its own (somewhat debatable) merits it's a bit much to have a purportedly encylopedic source such as wikipedia present that as if it's objectively true. It's a bit more reasonable to take the author somewhat on their own terms rather than simply reading them as an early examplar of schools of thought that have become fashionable for us. In fact it vastly reduces the relevance and power of works to read them as chiefly historical curiosities in that manner.

I hope the irenic spirit I was aiming for there was properly conveyed... and maybe, just maybe, this article could eventually be reconstructed with a more balanced emphasis.

Spelling

I've scanned the archive but apart from this very brief mention back in 2005, there appears never to have been any discussion about how best to spell his name. Given the variations we find in the real world, this is very surprising.

I'm unhappy with Dostoevsky, because it looks like it's pronounced dos-tow-evsky; whereas, it's actually much closer to dos-toy-evsky, and the spelling Dostoyevsky is more faithful to that. I'd like to move it to Dostoyevsky, but will await comments before doing so. -- JackofOz (talk) 06:58, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree, it is erroneous to write the name without i or y in the middle, so I suggest Dostoyevsky.--Miacek (talk) 13:32, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

That may very well be, however I have only seen the spelling Dostoevsky on every novel of his that I have read and it seems too impertinent to make the transition the the pronunciation favored spelling when it may have been his family's goal to make the distinction between their name and their town of origin.--Loonybin0 18:08, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't believe it has anything to do with that. Regardless of how it came to be that way, his name in Russian was Достоевский. The issue for Wikipedia is this: How best to transliterate the Russian word Достоевский into Latin characters suitable for an English-speaking audience? The only real matter of debate is the letter E/е. It is sometimes transliterated "e" (Ленин becomes Lenin) and sometimes "ye" (Ельцын becomes Yeltsin). Some transliteration systems arbitrarily render it as "e" in all cases, which can lead to absurd outcomes such as Mendeleev (Dmitri Mendeleev), which looks for all the world as if it's pronounced as the 3-syllable Men-del-eve (because double "e" has a special meaning in English), whereas it's actually a 4-syllable word Men-del-ey-ev. I have a friend whose surname is spelled Matveev, and he pronounces it Mat-vey-ev, but most people call him "Mat-veev", to his eternal chagrin. He would like to change the spelling legally to Matveyev but his family is happy the way it is and so he defers to them. With Dostoyevsky, it's pronounced do-sto-yev-ski, and the "e", because it follows another vowel, should be spelled "ye" to ensure it's not perceived as a diphthong, which is why it's often seen that way. Anyone who's never heard of him and encounters this article may well think it's pronounced "dos-tove-ski", or the "dos-tow-evski" I referred to earlier. -- JackofOz (talk) 19:20, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree as far as the rule - i.e., it should have been ye. However, there is something to be said for standardization and every book I've seen as well ommitting the y. See, for example, Image:0374528373.01. SCLZZZZZZZ .jpg and http://www.amazon.com/Punishment-Bantam-Classics-Fyodor-Dostoevsky/dp/0553211757. While past use may not determine future use, the most common search term will be Dostoevsky because the majority of books bare that spelling. --RossF18 (talk) 04:13, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

The 'best' example of the so-called transliteration often used is the Russian ё transliterated simply as e. E.g. 'Gorbachev', 'Grachev', whereas the last syllable is actually stressed in Russian and realized as o. --Miacek (talk) 16:31, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

What would be more relevant here, per Wikipedia:RUS#Romanization table, Russian e is romanized as ye after vowels. Which is the case here. --Miacek (talk) 16:49, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

That applies where there's doubt. There are special rules for people, which include:

• If the person is an author of works published in English, the spelling of the name used in such publications should be used. When multiple spellings are used and no single spelling clearly predominates, use the one closest to the WP:RUS romanization guidelines.
• If the person is the subject of English-language publications, the spelling predominantly used in such publications should be used. ... When no single spelling predominates, use the one closest to the WP:RUS romanization guidelines.
• Selecting the most frequently used variant based on a search engine test is not acceptable.
• When in doubt, use WP:RUS.

The first two point merge, since he never wrote in English, but his works were certainly published in English translations, where the Romanization of his name was as much left up to the translator as was the text itself. Loonybin0 and Ross F18 say they only ever encounter Dostoevsky. I've certainly seen that, but most times in my travels it's been Dostoyevsky. We can't use a google search to test this objectively (and it might be meaningless anyway). It seems to me there's sufficient doubt, which means we go to the Romanization table, which requires -ye. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:56, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

At present, it appears as Dostoyevsky in the title and first sentence of the article and Dostoevsky thereafter. I don't care either way, but it should be consistent. —Caesura^(t) 13:30, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I'll make the necessary changes. --Miacek (talk) 13:50, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I think that it should be changed back to Dostoevsky. After taking Russian in college, I believe it is incredibly more common. Also, it is the more agreed upon transliteration. Looking at the Romanization of Russian article every style goes from russian e, to e not ye except for only one system. As a site based partially on consensus, how can there be a better arguement for Dostoevsky over Dostoyevsky? The odds are that most academic literature will use Dostoevsky because they will transliterate with one of the at least seven other transliteration standards. Plus, it will proliferate poor pronunciation. The average reader will want to pronounce (toy) as one syllable due to its common occurrance as an english diphthong. 199.248.185.22 (talk) 15:41, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

How can the present form “proliferate poor pronunciation.” if it reflects more closely the Russian spelling of the name?Pan Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 15:51, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

How it looks is just my opinion. My arguement is based on the fact that there are far more transliterations as dostoevsky. Why shouldn't we use ALA-AC (american libraries) or British Standard (libraries). Dostoevsky is an author, not a geographic location. 199.248.185.22 (talk) 15:57, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

You are obviously mistaken. Books.google.com has merely 1,862 hits for Dostoevsky ([1]), but 38,239 for the spelling dostoyevsky [2]. The argument voiced by many that “that there are far more transliterations as dostoevsky” simply doesn't hold. --Pan Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 16:09, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Click on some of the pictures that accompany your search of "Dostoyevsky". Some are actually Dostoevsky or Dostoievsky ... so I don't see how that method for determining relevance is good. Searching "dostoevsky" in google aslo turns up this very article labeled as "Dostoyevsky". Seeing as this is an english encyclopedia why not use the "library" standards?

I can't find any such occasions at first glance. True, search 'dostoyevsky -dostoevsky' and 'dostoevsky -dostoyevsky' both reduce the number of hits, so sometimes both variants may occur within one result, as you did point out. However, the 'dostoyevsky -dostoevsky' still had many times more results than the second one, with the ratio similar to that of my search linked above. So, I can't see how Dostoevsky could be more commonly used by library standards. Pan Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 16:43, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Also, even on wikipedia itself, he is referred to as "Dostoevsky". I just looked at 4 of his novels' articles and in each one it is "Dostoevsky". A wikipedia search favors Dostoevsky 3 to 1. Its that standard that makes the most sense in terms of the other standarization rules I mentioned. 199.248.185.22 (talk) 16:29, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

The version "Dostoevsky" even wins out in the article's own reference section, and in Google Scholar "Dostoevsky" returns results nearly 3 to 1 over "Dostoyevsky". 199.248.185.22 (talk) 16:37, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

I understand your point, but in the context for using the name in writing papers, furthering research, or gaining some common knowledge I believe seeing "Dostoevsky" followed by a phonetic pronunciation is the most helpful to people. Honestly, Dostoyevsky versus Dostoevsky does not help anyone correctly pronounce the name. If unknown to the person they would still need to see it as das-ta-yev-ski. 199.248.185.22 (talk) 16:55, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Tried google.scholar, indeed this one got ratio about 2.3 : 1 for 'Dostoevsky'. Which doesn't change the fact that google.books gave some 10 times more hits for the latter one, whichever way you search. It generally seems that titles by mr. D himself have much more often the version with 'ye' ([3] / [4]). In books about him, the variant without y is apparently more common. --Pan Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 17:06, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, this is an article about him so shouldn't it be "Dostoevsky"? Also, I'm not sure if google books is the best marker. Apparantly Penguin publishes with the "oye" version and they have a ton of editions. I'm not sure the best wway to find out what the most common modern method of the transliteration of his name would be. All of my books at home have it as "Dostoevsky". Either way I wanted to see what the other opinions on this matter were.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.248.185.22 (talk • contribs)

Family Size

Of all the Dostoevsky's siblings, only his brother seemed to have any profound impact on his life. Yet it would be important to distinguish one fact: were there six children or seven? According to David Magarshack and Random House, there were only six in the Dostoevsky household. I am going to make this change in the article unless someone finds any evidence to the contrary.--Loonybin0 18:17, 19 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Loonybin0 (talk • contribs)

• this says seven; so does this. Are you sure of your source? --Rodhullandemu 18:48, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, no I'm not totally sure of it, though I think it was reasonable for me to trust the publisher and author (cited reference number four in the main article). I see that both of the items you mentioned are web summaries, which I tend to trust less, particularly if they come from quick and dirty text references like in the first link. I may be wrong though because it does seem very well supported, and I will be happy to change it back or you can feel free to.--Loonybin0 01:47, 21 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Loonybin0 (talk • contribs)

Theodor

Is Fyodor mistakenly referred to as Theodor, or was there a less known writer known as Theodor Dostoyevsky? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:23, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

I tried googling [5] - Tеодор Достоевский would be cyrillics of this, presumably? - and the results I glanced at were stuff that had F. Dostoyevsky's titles mentioned. Where did you come across such a variant? Феодор (Feodor) is an older (Russian) version of Фёдор (Fyodor), and I think variant Теодор (Teodor) has never been used by Russians (?). --Pan Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 17:37, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

A few rare Polish sources discussing the concept of samodzierżawie.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 12:39, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Suggest to move the page to Feodor Dostoyevsky

Because it is more accurate.--Dojarca (talk) 11:09, 5 January 2009 (UTC)