Talk:Muad'Dib

Please ...

please reference the term "Mahdi" here on wikipedia in realation to Herbert's character. The wealth of arabic cultural significane in Dune, obviously, cannot be overstated. I've still never seen any satisfactory discussions of what, if any, commentaries Herbert was making in his writings. Spice=Petroleum? CHOAM=OPEC?? Fremen=fundamentalist muslims? Did anyone read Chapterhouse???? what the F???

Resolved

. Muaddib, The Messiah, Mahdi, and The Mahdi Army. Stop all spice production and bring the great houses to thier knees. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 22:41, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Separation of subjects

Shouldn't the part about the band called Muad Dib be on its own page ("Muad Dib (band)")? I'd do it myself if I were certain about it.
-- 83.134.86.187 14:47, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Meaning of Muad'dib

First of all I must say that a large amount of the language of Dune has clearly arabic/muslim origin, as an arab reading this book I must say it certainly was interesting to draw parallels and at the same time understand the book in a different way. Knowing arabic really helps understand the book , an example would be Arrakis=Ar'raqis, the dancer. Though it may not mean much, it can hint at how it is every man's desire or something appealing yet unattainable. Or it could also refer to how it dances between one House and another , the polical dance.

Now, just wanted to say that in arabic Muad'dib means "He who disciplines/teaches manners". Ad'dab or A'adaab are manners. Usul also has a meaning, if pronounced Ous-ul, it means "origins/source". This can tie to "strength of the base of the pillar", if you interpret base as start of a pillar, the first stone, origin, usul of the pillar. So the author didn't go too far with the meaning.

Mahdi also has an arabic origin , hes a religious figure in Islam (mainly to Shi'ites, a sect of islam) who will save mankind before judgement day. He will save mankind from evil, pretty much exactly what Paul is viewed as by the Fremen, supposedly after Mahdi comes the earth will become a better place, green , lush , etc. Same thing with Arrakis after Muad'dib.

Didn't add this to the article since I was unsure if it would help.--Karimi 02:14, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

This is great! I'm adding to Etymology that in arabic Muad'dib means "He who disciplines/teaches manners". Ad'dab or A'adaab are manners per common knowledge. Tnx, Karimi. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 22:55, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

original research

i deleted the section on etymology because it is original research, which is disallowed. text appears below. Benwing 23:46, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

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Muad'dib is derived from Arabic. The word is a participle active. This fictional word could be derived two from probable Arabic-Semitic roots. The root ’db is frequently suggested, meaning as participle active mu’addib, a teacher,in particular a kindergartden teacher who brings cultivated manners and might be the author of fine literature. Herbert might especially be attracted by the combination of both meanings.

For the Fremen language meaning of 'jumping mouse' muad'dib, the Near Eastern jerboa might have been used as model, although Frank Herbert wants to direct the immediate attention to the Northern American jumping mouse. F. Herbert's style likes to direct readers in his universe into different directions. The jerboa is at home in the Arabian desert. It has a strong meaning in Arab mythology. One of the most important is that in pre-Islamic times the jerboa, a small animal, destroyed the centuries old monumental stone-built dam of Marib in Yemen. The stream (sail al-arim) tamed by the dam watered the two desert gardens (oases) of Marib and was its vital life stream. The jumping mouse, jerboa dug a hole underneath until it collapsed. After the historical destruction of the dam about 580 AD, life was not anymore possible in Marib. It became deserted.In the context of Herbert's Arabic-Islamic symbolism, this connection - 'the small destroys the monumental', water, desert, changing of ecology by Muad'dib - offers a further meaning.

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meaning of Usul?

Isn't Usul Fremen for "the strength of the base of the pillar", and not just "the base of the pillar"? Goanm 14:55, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Search results seem divided, but apparently the 'strength' part was added in the film adaptation. — Feezo (Talk) 21:37, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Inspiration

This is purely "original research", but I just spotted where this "moon shadow" thing was taken from:

Man in the Moon#Maula Ali's name on the moon

Enjoy! Wnt (talk) 15:20, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Merge

Merge this page with Paul_Atreides — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.107.230.53 (talk • contribs) 21:05, March 28, 2009 (UTC)

I vote no. It has more meanings than just it's relation to Pual and should stay separate. IRMacGuyver (talk) 02:34, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

IRMacGuyver is right. I will remove the merge template. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 21:41, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I've boldly merged and redirected this stub, which I believe was long overdue. If I may repeat what I just wrote on my talk page in response to AgadaUrbanit's query: "Muad'Dib" is a minor term (adequately defined at List of Dune terminology#M) and the "article" was trying to make it more than it is. I'm a huge Dune nerd and embrace all the trivia, but this kind of detail needs to be woven into articles appropriately, not featured in its own stub. Also, the supposed etymology for the word, while perhaps interesting, has no place here because it amounts to editors analyzing/forming conclusions about what Herbert may have meant when he chose the word. I've touched on this subject before at Talk:List of Dune terminology#Arabic. Thanks! — TAnthony^Talk 17:44, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for explanation, TAnthony. Please consider. Some items from the term list do have separate articles, like Kwisatz Haderach. Do we want to axe this article also and put a redirect to Paul instead? Muad'Dib term might be as notable and as wide. I personally like common knowledge info, like etymology, my motivation Dune background facts which might interest a wiki reader, but I see your point also we don't want to make an unreadable pile of mess. Still, Kwisatz Haderach looks like an appropriate model to follow also in Muad'Dib case. Your thoughts are welcome. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 18:57, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

LOL, I knew you were going to mention the Kwisatz Haderach article. Muad'Dib is the name of a fictional mouse and subsequently an alias Paul adopts. What's more to say that is really notable?? The stuff about the Arakkeen moon and the etymology is just more trivia, really. The concept of the Kwisatz Haderach needs more explanation, but it is also somewhat redundant of material in the Bene Gesserit article and other places. I don't think it would fare very well in an AfD nomination, especially since the sourcing is pretty weak. There used to be a lot more Dune stubs that were merged, and honestly I think the KW article will ultimately need to be merged as well.— TAnthony^Talk 19:33, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

I do want to add that I personally find much of this extraneous info interesting and think others probably would as well, but it just doesn't meet the necessary notability requirements as presented here. If there are specific elements you think should have a place somewhere, perhaps we can find a way to do that.— TAnthony^Talk 00:30, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Oh great Shai Hulud. So now it is not only Paul but also fictional mouse. And also moon and also constellation called Muad'Dib in the sky of fictional Arrakis. Agree sourcing is terrible, it is practically a stub, we better improve it. And I share your doubts on mouse. Any suggestions? Following Kwisatz Haderach -> Bene Gesserit logic we might end up merging this article into Arrakis or Fremen instead. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 17:35, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Are you agreeing with me or not? LOL. You need to think about what someone looking up "Muad'Dib" or following the link is expecting to find. I think it's most closely associated with Paul himself, it is only notable within the novel as the name he takes for himself, and most article links to it are in that context. If you're still suggesting that the article be restored and bulked up, I remind you that it's just a name, not an important concept in the novel or series. It doesn't matter that it's a name and a mouse and a sign on the moon, these are all plot details in the novel and not encyclopedic beyond what may be mentioned in context of plot summary in Paul Atreides or Dune (novel). WP:Notability (fiction) and WP:Trivia probably explain policy better than I can.— TAnthony^Talk 19:21, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Agree, WP:Notability (fiction) and WP:Trivia are important

Thank you for providing links for interesting guideline and draft. Policy wise, guidelines are sets of best practices that are supported by consensus. Let me state the obvious there is no consensus for your bold edit. But I will restore the merge template if others would like to add. There is nothing wrong with this article and Paul's circularly reference each other. With that I share your call for citation needed. Agree mouse is not notable. Since Muad'Dib is a messianic name of Paul, this might be one of the approaches. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 21:38, 31 August 2010 (UTC)