Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics: Difference between revisions
Line 165: | Line 165: | ||
In my opinion, it is better not to include any transliteration. One this is an English encyclopedia, so why would a regional language transliteration be needed anyway? And two, we can avoid all the edit wars that keep happening because of it. So in short, remove them for good. <span style="white-space:nowrap;">—[[User:Abhishek191288|<span style="background:#8b008b;color:#FFFAFA"><b> Abhishek </b></span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Abhishek191288|<span style="color:#006400">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup></span> 16:51, 20 December 2011 (UTC) |
In my opinion, it is better not to include any transliteration. One this is an English encyclopedia, so why would a regional language transliteration be needed anyway? And two, we can avoid all the edit wars that keep happening because of it. So in short, remove them for good. <span style="white-space:nowrap;">—[[User:Abhishek191288|<span style="background:#8b008b;color:#FFFAFA"><b> Abhishek </b></span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Abhishek191288|<span style="color:#006400">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup></span> 16:51, 20 December 2011 (UTC) |
||
:That may create problems with some of the south Indian actresses, where it's diffucult to say in which language they have done more films. Take the case of [[R. Madhavan|Madhavan]], a Tamilian by birth has done more films in Tamil, but many would say that he is a Hindi film actor as he is more active in Bollywood these days. Again, things might change tomorrow so it's difficult to decide things based on your proposal <span style="white-space:nowrap;">—[[User:Vensatry|<font color = "indigo" >'''Commander'''</font>]] <sub> [[User talk:Vensatry|<font color = "Indigo" >'''(Ping me)'''</font>]] </sub></span> 16:54, 20 December 2011 (UTC) |
:That may create problems with some of the south Indian actresses, where it's diffucult to say in which language they have done more films. Take the case of [[R. Madhavan|Madhavan]], a Tamilian by birth has done more films in Tamil, but many would say that he is a Hindi film actor as he is more active in Bollywood these days. Again, things might change tomorrow so it's difficult to decide things based on your proposal <span style="white-space:nowrap;">—[[User:Vensatry|<font color = "indigo" >'''Commander'''</font>]] <sub> [[User talk:Vensatry|<font color = "Indigo" >'''(Ping me)'''</font>]] </sub></span> 16:54, 20 December 2011 (UTC) |
||
Mr. Hari, in that case consider adding Rahul Gandhi's name in Kashmiri, Farsi and Italian along with Hindi. |
|||
After all he is part Italian, part Farsi, part kashmiri Pandit no? This is becoming absurd! |
Revision as of 16:58, 20 December 2011
Do you need the Indic name(s) of something or somebody? Post a request for it.
| ||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||
|
Regarding Featured Lists
I am assuming this is the right talk board to ask this question . I have recently (and my first time) completed an article List of Amar Chitra Katha comics .I have revamped the earlier list,changed the format to a table, wikified the links and removed bad references .How to get this added to the featured lists? Sumant81 (talk) 16:31, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
- First ensure your article meets the criteria for FL. Check out lots of candidatures before you nominate it here so as to avoid obvious mistakes. List it once you have removed the obvious defects and undergo the rigorous process of Featured review! Happy Editting. AshLin (talk) 16:47, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
- Before FLC, try to resolve few problems: check disambiguation links, lead is not of FL standards—try to expand it, add notes in the table for more information like year of publication and about the contents of comics, fix MOS issues, etc. — Bill william comptonTalk 17:26, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
- Some pictures should also help. -Animeshkulkarni (talk) 06:48, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Help on vandalism...
...required on Sudha Murthy. Too much messy! I myself have no much knowledge & wiki-hands! -Animeshkulkarni (talk) 06:51, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Announcing - WikiProject Offline Wikipedia for Indian Schools
Dear friends,
This is to announce the beginning of a new project for WikiProject India - WikiProject Offline Wikipedia for Indian Schools (OWIS). For quite some time now, there has been a need for an offline wikipedia compilation suitable to Indian schools. There are, and have always been, a whole lot of Indian schools and students out there who dont have access to an English encyclopedia. The web has killed off a whole range of printed encyclopedias and factbooks besides Wikipedia putting paid encyclopedia packages such as Encarta. If the school does not provide wide-spread, regular and dependable access to the web. then the students have zilch. So, keeping in mind that English Wikipedia has been around for more than a decade and has more than enough material for an encyclopedia, we began this project so that all interested people could pitch in and collectively prepare such offline compilations which are the need of the hour.
- About the Wikiproject
To do this, we began a new WikiProject in English Wikipedia, daughter to WikiProject India. Titled WikiProject Offline Wikipedia for Indian Schools (OWIS), it is intended to be the umbrella WikiProject for all Indian versions of offline English language wikipedias for students and communities. The WikiProject will concentrate on content issues and leave the production to a team of technically oriented guys from the community (to be decided later).
You can read about the WikiProject page here:
Wikipedia:WikiProject_Offline_Wikipedia_for_Indian_Schools
Under this WikiProject, it is proposed to provide a variety of compilations suitable for various needs, such as a full offline encyclopedia, single disc collations on topics related to India etc.
- The first project
To begin with, we felt it is best to create a single DVD compilation with all subjects covered in sufficient detail. We have named it as Offline Wikipedia for Indian Schools (Full version) or OWIS-FULL (in short). It is based on and will be siimilar to the SOS Children’s Village Offline Wikipedia for School which you can checkout for yourself here:
SOS Children’s Village Offline Wikipedia for School
The project page for this first project is here:
Wikipedia:WikiProject_Offline_Wikipedia_for_Indian_Schools/Offline_Full
The SOS village compilation is CD based with approximately 6500 articles based on the British educational syllabus. Naturally, it contains a large number of topics relevant only to the UK and has a distinct Western flavour in its overall choice too, which is only natural.
To make this compilation suitable for our environment, we will have to not only add a whole host of new articles on Indian topics to the compilation but also remove topics/articles irrelevant to Indian students. In addition, the SOS Children’s Encyclopaedia, being in existence for the last few years, is designed to fit on a CD with the consequence that the number of articles on a subject cover a subject satisfactorily but skimpily. Since we plan our compilation to be on a DVD, there is scope to improve coverage on all subjects as well. Hence it is planned to have in the region of around 9000 articles.
So where are we now? As a first step we have established the framework in the form of the WikiProject and pages where one can work. The list of topics from the SOS compilation has been prepared subjectwise. These lists need to be vetted/improved/extended and then finalised.
As of now, six subjects have been opened up for topic selection - Art, IT, Maths, Physics, Biology and Chemistry. We need motivated editors to join the teams and pitch in. The selection of topics needs to be completed in ten days time so that we can move on to other subjects, other tasks.
So, if this venture interests you, if you want to do something really important with us, if you agree with our proposition that this is critical for delivering the potential of Wikipedia to digitally-challenged communities, sign up here:
Wikipedia:WikiProject_Offline_Wikipedia_for_Indian_Schools/Offline_Full#Members
Let us hope that we succeed in this vital project.
AshLin (talk) 14:30, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
Jonathansammy's query about "Art"
Hello AshLin , Good proposal. Can you clarify what you mean by Art ? Do you mean sculptures, paintings, music etc. or the broader Indian definition which includes literature, languages , and social sciences ? Thanks. Jonathansammy (talk) 20:08, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
- Hi Jonathansammy, good question. We are following the structure of the SOS Children's Village compilation as it seems quite handy. Of course, we are ready to amend it if we felt that needs to be done. Please explore their subject index in greater detail to get an idea. For the convenience of all, I have given the location of the arts in the SOS compilation:
- Painting & sculpture - in section Art
- Architecture - in subsection Architecture (part of section Design & technology)
- Music - in section Music
- Singers - in subsection Performers and composers (part of section Music).
- Dance - in subsection Recreation (part of section Everyday Life)
- Language and Literature (including poetry, opera and theatre (drama)) - section Language and Literature
- Besides this, in this compilation, culture is not used as a larger umbrella term as we normally do but instead used as per a narrower sociological definition and it forms part of subsection Culture and diversity (part of section Citizenship).
- The question now arises, do we need to change the structure at all? If yes, then in what way is art and culture to be structurally represented? This is a larger debate in which I request you all to participate in to get a better structure than before. AshLin (talk) 03:55, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
- Does cinema come under "arts"?-RaviMy Tea Kadai 15:31, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
- Cinema comes under subsection Films, part of section Everyday Life. AshLin (talk) 19:45, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
Schools in India
Hi. I'm just dropping in here to mention that we are getting an increasing number of articles about schools in India. Unfortunately, the majority of these articles are of very poor quality and need a lot of clean up, while others may have to be deleted. We prefer to keep as many as we can in order to increase India articles in the encyclopedia - but we need your help.
For detailed information on how to write and maintain school articles, please visit us at WP:WPSCH and our guidelines at WP:SCH/AG. We also have a dedicated help page at WP:WPSCH/H.
--Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 08:40, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks Kudpung for bringing the situation to our notice. AshLin (talk) 15:40, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
The article Tiruchirappalli is being peer-reviewed. I invite you to participate in the same.-RaviMy Tea Kadai 17:07, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
- Moved here from user talkpage. Thanks to user:RabiChander84 for informing me. AshLin (talk) 19:50, 16 December 2011 (UTC).
Tiruchirappalli at FAC
I invite you to participate here and voice your opinions.-RaviMy Tea Kadai 06:25, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
Native languages in lead
Those who've been seeing my contribs and talks would be familiar with my rant. Its about these native language transliterations. User:Hari7478 has been repeatedly adding transliterations to articles, citing that it is the subject's mother tongue. It is sometimes as unreasonable as adding Marathi scripts to Aishwarya Rajinikanth, just because her father was born in Maharashtra, and adding Tamil script to Ramesh Aravind. Some other articles where this has been happening by the same user is Rahul Dravid, Soundarya Rajinikanth and Ravi Shankar (spiritual leader). The user seems to be operating on some nonexistent policy that the transliterations should be only of the subject's mother tongue. There is no Wikipedia policy that states so. I have reverted all his controversial edits pending consensus here.
It is difficult to come up with a generalized policy to handle these kinds of issues. I'd like Wikipedians' comments on this. Lynch7 12:11, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
- Just to bring to your notice; there are also discussions going on elsewhere about adding Urdu title for film names. eg here at Talk:Zindagi_Na_Milegi_Dobara#Urdu. A decision taken there and implemented on film articles can be misunderstood as taken for all India related articles & be brought to practise. Hence suggestion to conclude on both topics together. -Animeshkulkarni (talk) 12:25, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
- Purely on the basis that this is English Wikipedia and that even most Indian contributors whom I have come across are not proficient across the whole spectrum of subcontinental scripts/languages, is it feasible to adopt English (Latin character set) transliterations as the norm from now on? Or will we then just end up with a whole new set of arguments regarding which is the correct transliteration? Among other benefits, this might enable some of us truly monolingual types to spot vandalism/abuse that sometimes appears using Indian character sets. - Sitush (talk) 13:06, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with you Sitush, and this is what I initially aimed for, when I started actually doing something about it. I did receive some comments at Village pump (idea lab), but I just didn't have the energy to take it up further. Lynch7 13:19, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
- Purely on the basis that this is English Wikipedia and that even most Indian contributors whom I have come across are not proficient across the whole spectrum of subcontinental scripts/languages, is it feasible to adopt English (Latin character set) transliterations as the norm from now on? Or will we then just end up with a whole new set of arguments regarding which is the correct transliteration? Among other benefits, this might enable some of us truly monolingual types to spot vandalism/abuse that sometimes appears using Indian character sets. - Sitush (talk) 13:06, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
Some of my edits regarding "transliteration of names" have been frequently removed by new users/Ips without a proper explanation. I want them to be reinstated. Recently an admin' MikeLynch (talk · contribs) had reverted my edits, although they were well sourced. Upon his notification i'm bringing the issue here. I'm hereby mentioning the corresponding pages and the problems invovled.
- Jairam Ramesh - In this page, i had provided reliable sources which speak of his "Tamil brahmin" origin. See this:[1]. Some new users/Ips used to revert my edits and keep the kannada transliteration alone. But they don't provide any source about his Kannada ancestry, except for the fact that he was born in Karnataka. I suppose transliterations can only be added in the corresponding person's mother tongue. And, when i've provided sources about him being a "tamil speaking brahmin" , why is my contrib' being deleted? Please resolve this. I strongly believe that a tamil transliteration is a must, and that it should come first, for which i've provided sources.
- Sri Sri Ravi Shankar - See this:[2]. He happens to be a "tamil iyer brahmin" who was born in papanasam, tamil nadu. But users are frequently adding a kannada transliteration of his name, just because he currently resides in Bangalore. I suppose only the transliteration of one's mother tongue is added.
Please resolve them. Thank You. Hari7478 (talk) 13:36, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you. You might want to reply on the broader issue in the above section. Lynch7 13:39, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
Oops. Will post my replies in the above section. Hari7478 (talk) 13:46, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
- Native language transliteration should be not be as an "identity tool". It should be used only to show how the non-English name appears in the original language and for a pronunciation/search guide. The transliteration should be pertinent for the reader to gain more information not to identify him as belonging to X group.--Sodabottle (talk) 14:01, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
- That being the case, i say we remove all the transliterations in the disputed pages, temporarily, until a solution is reached. I've been providing sources for all those contribs of mine.
- However, almost all the articles concerning "a person of indian origin" has a corresponding transliteration in an indian language, believed to be his/her native tongue. I don't think it would be practically possible to adopt "Sitush's newly proposed idea", as you couldn't stop new users/Ips who are unaware of it from doing the same mistake.
- I suppose the current policy on transliterations is widely being followed across all global wiki' articles. See below:
- Karolos Papoulias - President of Greece. Xabi Alonso - Footballer. Although he hails from Spain, he belongs to the indigenous Basque community. Henceforth the article does not have a spanish transliteration, but rather has a "Basque pronunciation" IPA.
- That being the case in wikipedia, why don't we follow the same principle in the "India related articles" too? Thank You. Hari7478 (talk) 14:07, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
- Har7478, can you justify why so many India-related articles have multiple native language script entries? You can, by the way, forget the issues relating to newbies - they are largely irrelevant and no worse than the usual issues of sourcing, pov etc. Equally, the fact that other stuff exists (including extant Indian articles) dpes not prevent us moving forward. Finally, mine was a question rather than a "newly proposed idea". I am sure that it has been raised before. You may want to consider indenting your posts properly - usually, one colon more than the previous post in the thread ... and there is no need to use HTML br markup. I've reformatted your post above accordingly. - Sitush (talk) 14:17, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)There is no policy on transliterations. I cannot state that loudly enough. Show us one policy which says something about the compulsion of having to include a transliteration, and some clause which says that it has to be the mother tongue. Lynch7 14:18, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
- Indeed, ML. Just guidelines, such as Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). I'll take a look at Village Pump but it might be easier first to get the issue settled here. - Sitush (talk) 14:24, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
- Proposal:
People: Mother tongue + Language of their work. Eg: Rajnikant’s mother tongue would be Marathi but as he has works more in other South-Indian languages, those should be added. (I am unsure for this particular example of which would be the “other languages”. He has films in Kannada, Tamil, Telegu.)
Places: State language. In case of disputed territories, both languages can be added.
Films: The language of the film as well as the languages used in the credits of the film. Many olden films (few new) would have Urdu titles even if the film is Hindi.
Another question: While using a non-English language, should the content be the phonetic translation or the meaning’s translation? As this is applicable for titles (films, books, etc.), i suppose that only phonetic translation should be used. However, many places also have different names in different languages. E.g Sion, Mumbai is called Shiv in Marathi. -Animeshkulkarni (talk) 14:50, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
- Proposal:
- Indeed, ML. Just guidelines, such as Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). I'll take a look at Village Pump but it might be easier first to get the issue settled here. - Sitush (talk) 14:24, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)There is no policy on transliterations. I cannot state that loudly enough. Show us one policy which says something about the compulsion of having to include a transliteration, and some clause which says that it has to be the mother tongue. Lynch7 14:18, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
- Har7478, can you justify why so many India-related articles have multiple native language script entries? You can, by the way, forget the issues relating to newbies - they are largely irrelevant and no worse than the usual issues of sourcing, pov etc. Equally, the fact that other stuff exists (including extant Indian articles) dpes not prevent us moving forward. Finally, mine was a question rather than a "newly proposed idea". I am sure that it has been raised before. You may want to consider indenting your posts properly - usually, one colon more than the previous post in the thread ... and there is no need to use HTML br markup. I've reformatted your post above accordingly. - Sitush (talk) 14:17, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
- @ Mike Lynch - True indeed. There is no such policy. I understand that when there is no policy in that regard, one cannot revert another user's edit on any grounds. The only solution would be to remove all transliterations as of now, until we reach consensus. But, do you intend to differ from the usual format that is widely being followed across most wiki' articles (global), just because there is no exclusive policy regarding transliterations? My proposition is this:"Why don't we follow the same format as in the Xabi Alonso & Karolos Papoulias articles ?" @ Sitush - I suppose you were talking about articles like Makar Sankranti and i agree with you. But right now, let us settle the issue on "naming conventions in wiki' articles about individuals". Hari7478 (talk) 14:52, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
There is no prevailing convention, like the one you speak about, and hence there is nothing to be followed. Obama mentions no native language like Hawaiian (or whatever), or any African language (his father was African), and it is a FA. Rajnikanth mentions Tamil and Marathi, and is a GA. There is clearly no set convention being followed. Lynch7 14:56, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
@Animesh, thanks for taking the initiative and proposing something. I tend to agree with your proposals (though honestly I'd want the scripts to be removed altogether), but there are some kinks. We usually do not know what the mother tongue of a person is, in most cases, and this will start unnecessary debates again. Language of their work is a must, or else it won't make sense. I strongly agree with that. Lynch7 15:02, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
Rajinikanth's birthname is "Shivaji Rao Gaekwad". He got his new name, only after his foray into tamil film industry, which was given to him by a tamil film director. So the name Rajinikanth has a tamil transliteration while "Shivaji Rao Gaekwad" is written in marathi. That was the consensus in that page, although i wouldn't agree with it. But Obama's case is different. He is American. Except the american indians(natives), all others in the US don't have an american ancestry. For example: "Sylvester Stallone" is an American of Italian & Irish ancestries. But there is no "Italian/Irish transliterations" in that page. That's a different case (US related articles). But that isn't the case with "Europe & Asia related ones". See:Hakan Yakin - Although a swiss footballer, i don't see any swiss german transliteration, but only a turkish one as he is of turkish ancestry. I really wonder if he knows turkish as good as swiss german. Regardless of any of it, that is the format in all "Asia/Europe related articles". See Wael Zwaiter. Only the Americas is different. Hari7478 (talk) 15:15, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
- :) Again, there is no such fixed convention. There is no world's difference between US/Europe/Asian articles as such. There exists loosely formed Wikiprojects, but other than that, there is no division as such. Those conventions are what we're here to discuss and/or propose (for Indian articles) anyway. Lynch7 15:27, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
- Hey Hari Potter, be careful with your wand. Dont rub off other's comments. (Kiddingly calling you Hari Potter. Dont Avada Kedavra me. MikeLynch actually said something good about me in that comment of his.) Removing scripts would be a very easy, though tedious, task. But its like going one step down & i dont wanna do that. It is infact good to have these scripts just for the purpose of knowing how they look. Frankly i (or anyone who doesnt know the language) wont understand a thing nor know if its right or not & nor even know if its actually Tamil or Telegu. But just for the feel, its good to have. Actually, a phonetics of Indian-words should be more beneficial that original scripts. eg. Chutney should have chútnee. - Animeshkulkarni (talk) 15:38, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
- Bingo Animesh, you've understood my point :P . Yes, removing all scripts till this discussion is over would be futile. I'm waiting for other users' comments on this issue; lets see how it goes. Lynch7 15:42, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Mother tongue won't work because of verifiability issues, and I remain unsure about the rest of your proposal. I just feel that using these scripts is asking for trouble, especially on caste-related and politics articles. There is no urgency about this though, so I'll have a think and watch what others say. - Sitush (talk) 15:44, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think "language(s) of their work" will be effective. What if the actor has roughly done equal number of films in more than one language. Other than mother tongue, I see no valid criteria. Again, mother tongue may not work in cases where the subject's parents are of mixed background (Rekha being a classical example). So I too may have to wait for others comments —Commander (Ping me) 16:22, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
- Then Rajinikanth in Tamil and Deepika Padukone in Hindi will be meaningless. Don't you think that will be a bad situation, since Rajini is not as famous in Maharashtra as he is in TN, and Deepika is not as famous in Konkan as she is in Bollywood. Lynch7 16:37, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think "language(s) of their work" will be effective. What if the actor has roughly done equal number of films in more than one language. Other than mother tongue, I see no valid criteria. Again, mother tongue may not work in cases where the subject's parents are of mixed background (Rekha being a classical example). So I too may have to wait for others comments —Commander (Ping me) 16:22, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Mother tongue won't work because of verifiability issues, and I remain unsure about the rest of your proposal. I just feel that using these scripts is asking for trouble, especially on caste-related and politics articles. There is no urgency about this though, so I'll have a think and watch what others say. - Sitush (talk) 15:44, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
- Bingo Animesh, you've understood my point :P . Yes, removing all scripts till this discussion is over would be futile. I'm waiting for other users' comments on this issue; lets see how it goes. Lynch7 15:42, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
- Hey Hari Potter, be careful with your wand. Dont rub off other's comments. (Kiddingly calling you Hari Potter. Dont Avada Kedavra me. MikeLynch actually said something good about me in that comment of his.) Removing scripts would be a very easy, though tedious, task. But its like going one step down & i dont wanna do that. It is infact good to have these scripts just for the purpose of knowing how they look. Frankly i (or anyone who doesnt know the language) wont understand a thing nor know if its right or not & nor even know if its actually Tamil or Telegu. But just for the feel, its good to have. Actually, a phonetics of Indian-words should be more beneficial that original scripts. eg. Chutney should have chútnee. - Animeshkulkarni (talk) 15:38, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
In my opinion, it is better not to include any transliteration. One this is an English encyclopedia, so why would a regional language transliteration be needed anyway? And two, we can avoid all the edit wars that keep happening because of it. So in short, remove them for good. — Abhishek Talk 16:51, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
- That may create problems with some of the south Indian actresses, where it's diffucult to say in which language they have done more films. Take the case of Madhavan, a Tamilian by birth has done more films in Tamil, but many would say that he is a Hindi film actor as he is more active in Bollywood these days. Again, things might change tomorrow so it's difficult to decide things based on your proposal —Commander (Ping me) 16:54, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
Mr. Hari, in that case consider adding Rahul Gandhi's name in Kashmiri, Farsi and Italian along with Hindi. After all he is part Italian, part Farsi, part kashmiri Pandit no? This is becoming absurd!