Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard

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Use the closure requests noticeboard to ask an uninvolved editor to assess, summarize, and formally close a Wikipedia discussion. Do so when consensus appears unclear, it is a contentious issue, or where there are wiki-wide implications (e.g. any change to our policies or guidelines).

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There is no fixed length for a formal request for comment (RfC). Typically 7 days is a minimum, and after 30 days the discussion is ripe for closure. The best way to tell is when there is little or no activity in the discussion, or further activity is unlikely to change its result.

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Please append {{Doing}} to the discussion's entry you are closing so that no one duplicates your effort. When finished, replace it with {{Close}} or {{Done}} and an optional note, and consider sending a {{Ping}} to the editor who placed the request. Where a formal closure is not needed, reply with {{Not done}}. After addressing a request, please mark the {{Initiated}} template with |done=yes. ClueBot III will automatically archive requests marked with {{Already done}}, {{Close}}, {{Done}} {{Not done}}, and {{Resolved}}.

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Administrative discussions

Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive367#RfC_closure_review_request_at_Talk:Rajiv_Dixit#RFC_can_we_say_he_peddaled_false_hoods_in_the_lede

(Initiated 19 days ago on 5 December 2024) - Ratnahastin (talk) 07:18, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive367#Close challenge for Talk:1948 Arab–Israeli War#RFC for Jewish exodus

(Initiated 11 days ago on 13 December 2024) challenge of close at AN was archived nableezy - 05:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Requests for comment

Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase II/Mentoring process

(Initiated 223 days ago on 15 May 2024) Discussion died down quite a long time ago. I do not believe anything is actionable but a formal closure will help. Soni (talk) 04:19, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/In the news criteria amendments

(Initiated 78 days ago on 7 October 2024) Tough one, died down, will expire tomorrow. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:58, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Turkey#RfC_on_massacres_and_genocides_in_the_lead

(Initiated 77 days ago on 8 October 2024) Expired tag, no new comments in more than a week. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 21:48, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

 Note: This is a contentious topic and subject to general sanctions. Also see: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard topic. Bogazicili (talk) 17:26, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

 Note: Not sure if anyone is looking into this, but might be a good idea to wait for a few weeks since there is ongoing discussion. Bogazicili (talk) 16:33, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:Talk_page_guidelines#Request_for_comment:_Do_the_guidelines_in_WP:TPO_also_apply_to_archived_talk_pages?

(Initiated 69 days ago on 16 October 2024) Discussion seems to have petered out a month ago. Consensus seems unclear. Gnomingstuff (talk) 02:34, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: Needs admin closure imho, due to its importance (guideline page), length (101kb), and questions about neutrality of the Rfc question and what it meant. Mathglot (talk) 21:28, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

And in true Streisand effect fashion, this discussion, quiescent for six weeks, has some more responses again. Mathglot (talk) 01:30, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 459#RFC_Jerusalem_Post

(Initiated 57 days ago on 28 October 2024) Participation/discussion has mostly stopped & is unlikely to pick back up again. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: This is a contentious topic and subject to general sanctions. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Archived. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 22:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Grey_Literature

(Initiated 45 days ago on 10 November 2024) Discussion is slowing significantly. Likely no consensus, personally. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 03:09, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Option 2 was very clearly rejected. The closer should try to see what specific principles people in the discussion agreed upon if going with a no consensus close, because there should be a follow-up RfC after some of the details are hammered out. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 03:10, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

 Doing... —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 13:43, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

@Compassionate727: Still working on this? — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 17:18, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Ugh… in practice, no. I'm still willing to do it, but it's in hiatus because of the three(!) pending challenges of my closures at AN, while I evaluate to what extent I need to change how I approach closures. If somebody else wants to take over this, they should feel free. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 22:16, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Taking a pause is fair. Just wanted to double check. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 00:52, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

asking for an update if possible. I think this RFC and previous RFCBEFORE convos were several TOMATS long at this point, so I get that this might take time. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:34, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment#RFC_on_signing_RFCs

(Initiated 41 days ago on 13 November 2024) - probably gonna stay status quo, but would like a closure to point to Bluethricecreamman (talk) 06:14, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

• Done Soni (talk) 21:41, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#RfC: Check Your Fact

(Initiated 41 days ago on 13 November 2024) RfC has elapsed, and uninvolved closure is requested. — Red-tailed sock _{(Red-tailed hawk's nest)} 15:49, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#RfC Indian numbering conventions

(Initiated 38 days ago on 16 November 2024) Very wide impact, not much heat. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:30, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

• Consensus seems clear, I don't think my Indian-ness poses a WP;COI here, closed. Soni (talk) 22:03, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:List of fictional countries set on Earth#RfC on threshold for inclusion

(Initiated 34 days ago on 20 November 2024) TompaDompa (talk) 17:50, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (music)#RfC about the naming conventions for boy bands

(Initiated 16 days ago on 8 December 2024) No further participation in the last 7 days. Consensus is clear but I am the opener of the RfC and am not comfortable closing something I am so closely involved in, so would like somebody uninvolved to close it if they believe it to be appropriate.RachelTensions (talk) 16:00, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not comfortable closing a discussion on a guideline change this early. In any case, if the discussion continues as it has been, a formal closure won't be necessary. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 13:00, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Articles for creation#RfC: Should a bot be created to handle AfC submissions that haven't changed since the last time they were submitted?

(Initiated 39 days ago on 15 November 2024) This RfC expired five days ago, has an unclear consensus, I am involved, and discussion has died down. JJP_Master (she/they) 22:56, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Len_Blavatnik#RfC:_NPOV_in_the_lead

(Initiated 8 days ago on 16 December 2024) RFC is only 5 days old as of time of this posting, but overwhelming consensus approves of status quo, except for a single COI editor. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 21:04, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

The CoI editor has now accepted that consensus is for the status quo, but I think a formal close from an uninvolved editor, summarizing the consensus would be helpful, since the issue has been coming up for a while and many editors were involved. — penultimate_supper 🚀 ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:35, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

yes, despite multiple posts to WP:BLPN, WP:NPOVN, WP:3O, several talk page discussions, and now an RFC, I doubt the pressure to remove word oligarch from the lede of that page will stop. An appropriate close could be a useful thing to point at in the future though. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:40, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Template talk:Infobox country#Request for comment on greenhouse emissions

(Initiated 88 days ago on 27 September 2024) Lots of considered debate with good points made. See the nom's closing statement. Kowal2701 (talk) 09:47, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel#RfC

(Initiated 32 days ago on 22 November 2024) Legobot has removed the RFC notice. Can we please get an interdependent close. TarnishedPath^talk 23:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Chloe Melas#RFC on allegation of making a false allegation (resubmission)

(Initiated 30 days ago on 24 November 2024) The bot has removed the RFC notice. Can we please get an independent close. TarnishedPath^talk 23:03, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Deletion discussions

XFD backlog

V	Sep	Oct	Nov	Dec	Total
CfD	0	0	0	8	8
TfD	0	0	0	0	0
MfD	0	0	2	1	3
FfD	0	0	1	18	19
RfD	0	0	9	40	49
AfD	0	0	0	0	0

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of songs recorded by Mohammed Rafi (A)

Please review this discussion. --Jax 0677 (talk) 17:29, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion has now been relisted thrice. --Jax 0677 (talk) 00:42, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Other types of closing requests

Talk:Arab migrations to the Levant#Merger Proposal

(Initiated 91 days ago on 25 September 2024) Open for a while, requesting uninvolved closure. Andre🚐 22:15, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:LGBT history in Georgia#Proposed merge of LGBT rights in Georgia into LGBT history in Georgia

(Initiated 79 days ago on 7 October 2024) A merge + move request with RM banners that needs closure. No new comments in 20 days. —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 20:16, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Donald Trump#Proposal: Age and health concerns regarding Trump

(Initiated 69 days ago on 16 October 2024) Experienced closer requested. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:57, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Tesla Cybercab#Proposed merge of Tesla Network into Tesla Cybercab

(Initiated 67 days ago on 18 October 2024) This needs formal closure by someone uninvolved. N2e (talk) 03:06, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Stadion Miejski (Białystok)#Requested move 5 November 2024

(Initiated 49 days ago on 5 November 2024) RM that has been open for over a month. Natg 19 (talk) 02:13, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:JTG Daugherty Racing#Requested move 22 November 2024

(Initiated 32 days ago on 22 November 2024) Pretty simple RM that just needs an uninvolved editor to close. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" _(hihi) 17:40, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Williamsburg Bray School#Splitting proposal

(Initiated 27 days ago on 27 November 2024) Only two editors—the nominator and myself—have participated. That was two weeks ago. Just needs an uninvolved third party for closure. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:37, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

 Doing... BusterD (talk) 20:28, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Winter fuel payment abolition backlash#Merge proposal

(Initiated 57 days ago on 29 October 2024) There are voices on both sides (ie it is not uncontroversial) so a non-involved editor is needed to evaluate consensus and close this. Thanks. PamD 09:55, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

RfC close review please

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Hi, all. On Friday I closed a RfC concerning Isaac Barrow and implemented the consensus as I saw it. This morning, an IP user has reverted that edit, posted a colossal screed on my talk page, and added two extra votes to the RfC.

I would tend to understand these edits as a challenge to my close, and I would therefore be grateful if some experienced, uninvolved users could please review it. Did I make a mistake in my assessment of the consensus? If I did, please do overturn me and implement the correct result. However, on the off-chance that I got it right, then I would be grateful if a sysop could take this user in hand and offer some support and direction.—S Marshall T/C 16:52, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Those walls of text.... I agree with your close, barring that I would find there is only a rough consensus (rather than the absolute 'no' used) not to include the person in the "influences" section of the infobox (seeing as there were only 4 or so commenting on that piece of it). That yields the same result as your close of it regarding the article at this time. --Izno (talk) 17:32, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

dear @Izno and S Marshall:, while you feel there was a consensus, as i had stated on the talk page: there was hardly any consensus. One opposed (biased editor), One approved, and two (three?) abstained out of clear distaste towards my style of discourse (which is their right); however to interpret the latter's abstinence as contributing to the opposition of the edit is disingenuous, User:Izno.

further, the opposition did not provide any evidence to counter my claims. i did not care to close the RfC after User:Hgilbert had gotten back to me, which is where i suspect the problem began, because those who peruse RfC don't seem to like my approach (again, that's cool).

when S Marshall decided to close the RfC, i had not "voted" (my fault). even so, i have found sufficient evidence in Gregorie's own words that would justify inclusion of Barrow as an influence on *him*. determining the sufficiency of evidence for the inclusion requires analysis of the six (!!!) sources i've used. i thought User:S Marshall was going to do that, but i guess not.

this is not about the RfC outcome, which was at best indeterminate and absent of evidence (except from me), but rather the contents of the argument and their respective merit. i have persistently stated that Gregorie was an influence on Barrow, and there seems to be a disingenuous reluctance to accept this fact because it's not as verbose as some would like.

however, if you guys want to play that game, Gregorie *is* verbose about the influence of Barrow on his work and such sources should be sufficient to include Barrow as an influence on him in the infobox.

so it's up to you guys if you want to take the scholarship of the fundamental theorem of calculus seriously. if you do not want to objectively analyse the evidence presented, which i had spent many hours gathering (where the opposition literally spent no time), you are going to lose good contributors (ahem).

hate to do this to you dr @David Eppstein:, but i figured if someone wants to involve administrators, i may as well try to recruit someone whose (rare, not enough of "us" out there imo) decision-making, experience, and expertise i can feel confident in deferring to 174.3.155.181 (talk) 18:40, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

This is not the place to discuss content. The close looks ok to me — I might have taken the view that the consensus was less clear than what S Marshall wrote but what they wrote was reasonable. And whether they are an admin (I think not?) S Marshall is a highly experienced editor who was until closing this completely uninvolved. So at this point we have an established consensus on how to edit the article going forward: put sourced connections between the two in the article text but not in the infobox. That doesn't seem like a particularly difficult constraint to follow. The only issue for an ANI should be that we have an editor being unwilling to follow the result of an RfC and improperly reverting the close — for which you, 174.3.155.181, get a trout and an admonishment not to do that again. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:42, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

i don't understand dr @David Eppstein:, why is the connection not strong enough for an infobox insertion? no one has really answered that. where does the provided evidence fall short of establishing the relationship that is infobox-worthy?

also, i never said User:S Marshall wasn't impartial. rather, what i said was that *he* said it was a consensus to remove from infobox, to which i (again) said only one person made that recommendation. he was impartially assessing the comments on the page where two others abstained, and Gilbert/Mawr yay/nay'd, respectively. may i ask how that is a consensus?

lastly, i do not understand why no one is acknowledging that the *entire* basis for the RfC was that mawr reverted on the basis of insufficient/inadequate sources. i provided ample sources to override that argument, and i feel enough information has been provided WARRANT the insertion. there was no constructive discussion on this matter in the RfC by Mawr; instead they gave vacuous one-liners. the RfC then went to a "vote" (because i didn't close it, and thought the issue was handled after User:Hgilbert chimed in) well-after my response and that was that. can we clear this up? thanks. 174.3.155.181 (talk) 22:46, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

like i am quite upset dr @David Eppstein:. people invest time on this site hoping they are contributing to the truth, but look at what has happened in this entire situation. seriously.

it's cool if you don't want to read wall of text; but to say that the original reversion was justified in light of the ALL the evidence provided, to which the REVERTER NEVER provided ANY proper counterclaim suggesting otherwise, is outrageous.

the whole reason i opened it to RfC was to get opinions from *experts*, and even though the vote was taken in my absence, the result was *inconclusive* (1 yay User:Hgilbert, 1 nay, 2 abstain, 1 stating a non-infobox insertion). it is hard to see how there is any semblance of a consensus on that RfC page when accounting for the fact that the initiator of the RfC (me) was absent and would have voted to "keep".

essentially what is being stated is "higher body count wins, regardless of how much EVIDENCE one person provides." is knowledge now void of facts? or just on wikipedia? i am glad this happened sooner rather than later. 174.3.155.181 (talk) 23:04, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

@David Eppstein: come on dude: TAKE CHANCES, MAKE MISTAKES - MS FRIZZLE

The grammar used by 174.3.155.181 is also concerning. MPS1992 (talk) 21:02, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

hahahahahahahaha okay @MPS1992: "upgradation" lol.

• {{Do not archive until}} added. Please remove the {{Do not archive until}} tag after the review is closed. (I am adding this because RfC closure reviews frequently have been archived prematurely without being resolved.) Cunard (talk) 01:14, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
• Support close and direct the IP to consider the fact that your inability to make your point without a giant wall of text is a failure on your part, not ours. The "everyone who disagrees with me is ignorant" routine is not going anywhere. And six weeks is more than enough time to consider a fairly benign issue in which the major point (was there an influence) was resolved favorably. The infobox is probably the most superficial thing to care about. Close, protect the article is need be and WP:RBI any more antics by now a {WP:SPA]]. If the editor can move on, then it's worth inviting to help. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 23:21, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
• Support close, the RfC clearly did not reach a consensus to make the disputed change, and absent consensus in favor, the status quo ante remains in place. The close is certainly a reasonable one. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 00:33, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Content translator tool creating nonsense pages

Machine translation gadget

There is currently a gadget called GoogleTrans which allows the straight dropping of google translate into the content translation tool. (See here). I just did a test, and I was able to produce a machine translated article into english without leaving wikipedia using this gadget. Pinging the creator of the gadget: @Endo999:. I do not think this gadget should be present on the English wikipedia, and certainly not when it seems to explicitly endorse machine translations. Fortunately, it doesn't get around the edit filter, but it still sends a terrible message. Tazerdadog (talk) 09:02, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, I didn't remember about that gadget; I surely can make good use of it. That's the kind of tools that may be invaluable time savers in the hands of us who know how to use them, making the difference between translating a stub right now when you first stumble upon it (thanks to the kick-start of having part of the work already done), or leaving it for another day (and never coming back to it).

Given that the CTX tool has been restricted to experienced editors, and that the GoogleTrans gadget needs to be explicitly activated, the combination of the two won't be at the hands unexperienced newbies in the way that created the current backlog. The GoogleTrans doesn't insert translated content into text fields, it merely shows the translation in a pop-up; so I don't agree that it "explicitly endorses machine translations". Any editor with your experience should know better than copy-paste machine translated text unedited into an article. Diego (talk) 10:39, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

I am the creator of the GoogleTrans gadget and it does do Machine Translation Under The HTML Markup when used in the Content Translation system. I have used this to translate 226 articles from the frwiki to the enwiki and got all of them reviewed okay. The Machine Translation is a starting point. You still have to manually change each and every sentence to get the grammar and meaning right. It's not very sensible to ban it because, without human followup, it produces a bad article. The point is that it is a tool to quicken the translation of easy to medium difficulty articles, especially for good language pairs like English-French. Wikipedia, itself, uses both Apertium and Yandex translation engines to do machine translation and these have been used to good effect in the Catalan and Spanish wikipedias. GoogleTrans does the same thing as Apertium in the Content Translation system, except it uses Google Translate, which most people feel is a better translation engine. As Diego says this needs to be explicitly turned on, so it tends to restrict usage to competent editors. To stress the point, Machine Translation, as done by GoogleTrans gadget, is a starting point, it is not the end product. Human intervention is required to massage the MT into decent destination language text and grammar, but Machine Translation can help start the translation quite a bit. Wikipedia feels that Machine Translation is worth doing, because it has it as a feature (using both Yandex and Apertium machine translation engines) Endo999 (talk) 11:45, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Except that we have a policy against machine translation on en.wikipedia, because the requirements for correcting its output are far higher than users tend to realise; in fact it is easier and faster to translate from scratch than to spend the necessary time and effort comparing the original with the translation to find the errors. Hence the whole long discussion above and the agreement that machine translations can be deleted as such. Yngvadottir (talk) 19:13, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

There is no policy against Machine Translation on the enwiki. That would have to be posted on the Content Translation blog, and it isn't. I've done 226 of these articles successfully and I can tell you there is more editing for non text issues, like links around dates coming from the frwiki, editing getting references right, manual changing of TAGS because their parameter headings are in the origin language. The actual translation work postprocessing, when polished up by a person competent in the destination language is far less than you say. But style differences between the wikis take more of the editors time. Endo999 (talk) 19:44, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

The policy is at WP:MACHINETRANSLATION, and has been in force for a decade. ‑ Iridescent 19:49, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

The policy is against unedited machine translation. It doesn't apply to using machine translation as a starting point to be cleaned up by hand. Diego (talk) 20:12, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

MACHINETRANSLATION isn't a policy. It isn't even a guideline. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:14, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

I have never claimed that Machine Translation first drafts are good enough for articles on the enwiki. They aren't, but responsible use of Machine Translation, as a first draft, that is then worked on to become readable and accurate in the destination language is quite okay and even helpful. Endo999 (talk) 20:40, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

The consensus is pretty clear that unless you are translating at a professional level, machine translation is a trap. It looks good at first glance, but often introduces bad and difficult to detect errors, such as missed negations or cultural differences. Even if a human caught 9 out of 10 of these errors, the translation would be grossly unacceptable and inaccurate. I'd request that this gadget be disabled, or at minimum, de-integrated from the content translation tool. Tazerdadog (talk) 23:33, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Well. I'm pretty far from being a fan of machine translations, but it's always been possible to copy/paste from Google Translate. Anyone autoconfirmed can do that without going to all the trouble of finding and enabling this gadget. The problem is fundamentally behavioural rather than technological. The specific problem behaviour is putting incomprehensible or misleading information in the mainspace. Over-reliance on machine translation is a cause of this, but we can't prevent or disable machine translation entirely, and there's not much point trying. I think the position we should adopt is that it is okay to use machine-aided translations provided you don't put them in the mainspace until they've been thoroughly checked by someone who reads the source language and writes the target language fluently. I suggest the approach we take to Endo999's tool is to add some warnings and instructions rather than try to disable it.—S Marshall T/C 23:51, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Don't forget that the use of Machine Translation in the Content Translation system is expanding all the time, and I'm am pretty much the only regular user of my GoogleTrans gadget for translation purposes. Why is the gadget being singled out? Yandex machine translation is being turned on by the Content Translation people all the time for various languages, like Ukranian and Russian. The Catalan and Spanish wikipedias are at the forefront of machine translation for article creation and they are not being flamed like this. I reiterate that the majority of edits per my frwiki-to-enwiki articles are over differences in the frwiki for an article than for articles in the enwiki. The treatment of dates and athletic times is one such difference. You need to do postediting after the document has been published in order to please the editors of the destination wiki. This usually has nothing to do with the translated text but is actually the treatment of links, the treatment of dates, the removal of underlines in links, the adding of categories, the transfer of infoboxes, the addition of references (the fiwiki is particularly good for references of track and field athletes), and other wiki standards (that are different from the origin wiki). There's always going to be some postediting of translated articles because of these nontranslation specific items. It's just inherent in wiki to wiki article movement. Endo999 (talk) 00:24, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

We don't care about what happens on other wikipedia language versions, basically. Some are happy to have 99% bot-created articles, some hate bot-created articles. Some are happy with machine-translated articles, some don't. It may be true that "the use of Machine Translation in the Content Translation system is expanding all the time", but at enwiki, such a recent "expansion" started all this as the results were mostly dreadful. "Why is the gadget being singled out? Yandex machine translation is being turned on by the Content Translation people all the time for various languages, like Ukranian and Russian." Your gadget is in use on enwiki, what gadgets they use on ruwiki or the like is of no concern to us. We "single out" tools in use on enwiki, since this is an enwiki-only discussion. And this discussion is not about the long list of more cosmetic things you give at the end (or else I would start a rant about your many faux-bluelinks to frwiki articles in enwiki articles, a practice I truly dislike), it is (mostly) about quality of translation, comprehensability and accuracy. Yours are a lot better than most articles created with ContentTranslation, luckily. Fram (talk) 07:07, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

• @Endo999: I just happened to check Odette Ducas, one of your translations from French. You had Lille piped to read "Little". This is a good illustration of how easy it is to miss errors, and it's not fair, in fact counterproductive, to encourage machine-based translation and depend on other editors to do the necessary painstaking checking. Yngvadottir (talk) 17:20, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for catching that error (Lille translated at Little). I had seen and corrected that problem in a later article on a french female track athlete from Lille, but didn't correct the earlier translated article. Don't forget that Wikipedia is about ordinary people creating Wikipedia articles and through the ARGUS (many eyes) phenonmenon having many people correct articles so they become good articles. This is one example of that. Wikipedia is not about translation being restricted to language experts or simply experts for article creation. Your argument does tend towards that line of thought. Endo999 (talk) 18:56, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

I don't think it does (for one thing, all you can know of my level of expertise is what I demonstrate). The wiki method is about trusting the wisdom of the crowd: this tool hoodwinks people. It's led you to make a silly error you wouldn't have otherwise made, and it's led to at least one eager new editor being indeffed on en.wikipedia. It rests on condescending assumptions that the editing community can't be left to decide what to work on, in what order. (Not to mention the assumptions about how other Wikipedias must be delighted to get imported content just because.) Yngvadottir (talk) 19:04, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

I'ld like to retract my compliment about Endo999's use of his translation tool. I have just speedy deleted his machine translation of Fatima Yvelain, which was poorly written (machine translation) and a serious BLP violation. Fram (talk) 08:01, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Almost everyone of the articles I have translated, using the GoogleTrans gadget, has already been reviewed by other editors and passed. I can only translate the existing French, which is sometimes not well written. In Fatima Yvelain's case I transferred over all the sources from the frwiki article. Can you tell me which reference didn't work out. You've deleted the article, without the ordinary seven day deletion period, so you deleted the article without any challenges. Are you and a few other reviewers systematically going through every article I have translated looking for things to criticize? Endo999 (talk) 01:54, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

That's how Wikipedia rolls; it's the easiest way to demonstrate supposed incompetence, and since incompetence on the part of the creator reflects on the tool, it is therefore the easiest way in which to get the tool removed (along with phrases such as "I'd like to retract my compliment", which I hate as much as Fram hates faux-bluelinks). Simples. jcc (tea and biscuits) 11:00, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Having just checked the article for myself, if it was really "reviewed by other editors and passed" it reflects just as badly on those other editors as it does on you, given that it contained an entire paragraph of grossly libellous comments sourced entirely to an alleged reference which is on a completely unrelated topic and doesn't mention the subject once. (The fr-wikipedia article still contains the same paragraph, complete with fake reference.) Checking the review log for the page in question, I see no evidence that the claim that anyone else reviewed it is actually true. ‑ Iridescent 15:46, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

I realise this isn't a vote, but I agree with Tazerdadog that having such a tool easily available is sending the wrong message. It needs to be restricted to experienced users, with plenty of warnings around it. Deb (talk) 13:28, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

You are all panicking. There's nothing wrong with using the GoogleTrans gadget with the Content Translation system if the appropriate editing happens alongside it. The ordinary review process can uncover articles that are not translated well enought. I'm being punished for showing ingenuity here. Punishing innovation is a modern trait I find. Endo999 (talk) 07:31, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

No, our reveiw processes are not adequate for this. Both the problems with translated articles, and the unrelated but similar problems with tool created articles (now discussed at WP:ANI show the problems we have in detecting articles which superficially look allright (certainly when made by editors with already some edits) but which are severely deficient nevertheless, and in both cases the problems were worse because tools made the mass creation of low quality articles much easier. While this is the responsability of the editors, not the tools, it makes sense to dismiss tools which encourage such creations. Fram (talk) 09:19, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

User:Fram per "We don't care about what happens on other wikipedia language versions" please speak only for yourself. Some of us care deeply what happens in other language version of Wikipedia. User:Endo999 tool is not a real big issue. It does appear that the Fatima Yvelain needs to have its references checked / improved before translation. And of course the big thing with translation is to end up with good content you need to start with good content. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:41, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

We, on enwiki, don't care about what happens at other language versions: such discussions belong either at that specific language or at a general site (Wikimedia). These may involve the same people of course. 19:45, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Do people feel that a RFC on this topic would be appropriate/helpful? The discussion seems to have fixated on minute analyses of Endo999's editing, which is not the point. The discussion should be on whether the presence of the gadget is an implicit endorsement of machine translated materials, and whether its continued presence sends the wrong message. Tazerdadog (talk) 22:33, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I believe an RfC would be helpful assuming it is well prepared.--Ymblanter (talk) 05:49, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

The GoogleTrans gadget has been running on the enwiki for the last 7 years and has 29,000 people who load the gadget when they sign into Wikipedia. It's quite a successful gadget and certainly, wiki to wiki translators have concentrated on the gadget because while they may know English (when they are translating articles between the enwiki and their home wikis) they like to get the translation of a word every once in a while. Endo999 (talk) 17:05, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Discussion on this matter seems to have mostly died down, but I was unaware of this discussion until now and I feel the need to speak up on behalf of translation tools. I don't believe the tool being discussed here is the one I am using, since *it* does not provide a machine translation into english. However. I do put english into French based on the machine translation. I repeat, *based on*. Many of my edits to date have been translation and cleanup after translation, so I am probably close to an ideal use case. The tool, Yandex.Translate, appeared on my French wikipedia account and I do find it useful, although it produces text that needs to be gone over 4-5 times, as, yes, it sometimes creates inappropriate wikilinks, often in the case where a word can mean a couple of different things and the tool picks the wrong one. And it consistently translates word by word. I have submitted a feature request for implementation of some basic rules -- for example in German the verb is always the last word in the sentence and in French the word order is almost always "dress blue" not "blue dress". But there are many many MANY articles with word order problems on Wikipedia; it's just usually more subtle that that when the originating editor was human but not a native English speaker. So it's a little like fixing up the stilted unreferenced prose of someone who can't write but yea verily does know MUCH more about the topic than I do. And has produced a set of ideas, possibly inelegantly expressed, I would not have conceived of. The inelegant writing is why we have all this text in a *wiki*

For the record, I agree that machine-translated text is an anathema and have spent way too many hours rescuing articles from its weirdnesses, such as "altar" coming through as "furnace branch" in Notre-Dame de la Garde. BUT. Used properly, machine translation is useful. For one thing it is often correct about the translation for specific obscure words. I deeply appreciated this when, for example, I was doing English into French on a bio of a marauding Ottoman corsair who, at one point or another, invaded most of the Mediterranean. I am an English speaker who was educated in French and has spent years operating in French, but the equivalent terms for galleon, caravel, Papal States, apse and nave, for example, not to mention Crusader castles and Aegean islands, weren't at the tip of my tongue. Its suggestions needed to be verified, but so do Google Search results. I could look these words up, sure, and do anyway, but Yandex gives my carpal tendons a break, in that I can do one thing at a time, ie translate a bit of text like "he said" then check to make sure that wikilink is correct, move down to the next paragraph and do some other simple task like correcting word order while I mull why it is that the suggested translation sounds awkward, walk away and come back... All of this is possible without the tool, but more difficult, and takes much longer. I have translated more articles in the past month, at least to a 0.95 version, that I had in the entire previous several years I've been editing wikipedia. Since the tool suggests articles that exist on one wikipedia but not the other, I am also embarking on translations I otherwise would not, because of length or sheer number of lookups needed to refresh my memory on French names for 16th-century Turkish or Albanian settlements or for product differentiation or demand curve or whatever. Or simply because while the topic may be important it's fundamentally tedious and needs to be taken in small doses, like some of the stuff I've been doing with French jurisprudence and which is carefully labeled, btw, as a translation in progress on those published articles that are still approaching completion.

I agree that such tools should not be available to people who don't have the vocabulary to use them. I don't really have suggestions as to what the criteria should be, but there is a good use for them. They -- or at least this tool -- do however make it possible to publish a fully-formed article, which reduces the odds of cranky people doing a speedy delete while you are pondering French template syntax for {{cn}} or whatever. This has happened to me. The tool is all still kinda beta and the algorithm does ignore special characters, which I hope they remedy soon. (In other words ê becomes e and ç becomes c etc.) Also, template syntax differs from one wiki to another so infoboxes and references often error out when the article is first published. Rule of thumb, possibly: don't publish until you can spend the hour or so chasing this sort of thing down down. And the second draft is usually still a bit stilted and in need of an edit for idiom. But the flip side of that is that until you do publish, the tool keeps your work safe from cranky people and in one place, as opposed to having to reinvent the version management wheel or wonder whether the draft is in Documents or on the desktop. Some people complain within 3 minutes of publication that the article has no references without taking the time to realize that the article is a translation of text that has no references. As the other editor said above, translation tools aren't magic and won't provide a reference that isn't there or fix a slightly editorial or GUIDEBOOK tang to language -- this needs to come next as a separate step. When references are present the results are uneven, but I understand that this issue *is* on the other hand on the to-do list. Anyway, these are my thoughts on the subject; as you can see I have thunk quite a few of them and incidentally have reported more than one bug. But we are all better off if people like me do have these tools, assuming that there is value in French wikipedia finding out about trade theory and ottoman naval campaigns, and English wikipedia learning about the French court system. Elinruby (talk) 08:39, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

Articles created by block-evading sock using the WMF translation tool

My attention was drawn at a site I should not link to and therefore will not name (however, the thread title is "The WMF gives volunteers another 100K articles to check") to the fact that Duckduckstop created several articles using the WMF translation tool. They were blocked on 5 April as a sock of a blocked user, and their edits are thus revertable. I checked one translated article as a test, John of Neumarkt, and I've seen worse, but it is clearly based on a machine translation and contains at least one inaccurate and potentially misleading passage: "Auch in Olmütz hielt sich Johannes nur selten auf" does not mean "Also in Olomouc, John held only rarely"; it means he rarely spent any time there, but a reader might either not understand that or think it meant he rarely claimed the title. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Pages to review contains thousands of pages, the vast majority still to be checked. Only a few of us are working there. I feel guilty having taken a few days off to write 2 new articles. I haven't looked through Duckduckstop's page creations to see what proportion were created with the translation tool, but that one has not been substantially edited by anyone else. I suggest that in this emergency situation, it and others that fall into both categories—translation tool, and no substantial improvements by other editors—be deleted under the provision for creations by a blocked/banned user. Yngvadottir (talk) 17:42, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Hi there. I have had a look today at that list, but haven't really been posting comments since as far as I could see nobody else has been there in several days. I do not know what happened with duckduckstop but as to the articles on the list

- I do not understand why an article about a French general who invaded several countries under Napoleon is nominated for deletion as far as I can tell solely on based on authorship? Do we not trust the content because of the person who wrote it? Can someone explain this to me? I glanced at the article quickly and the English seems fine. This is a serious question; I don't get it. Also, why did we delete Genocide in Guatemala? It was already redlinked when I noticed it, but unless the article was truly astonishing bad, I would have made an effort to clean that one up. Personally. Considering that some of the stuff that's been on the "cleanup after translation" list the past few years --- we have had articles on individual addresses in Paris. We have lists of say, songs on a 1990s album in Indonesian, sheriffs of individual municipalities in Wales (one list per century), and government hierarchies in well, pretty much everywhere.

- I have a suggestion: The person who decides that we need a set of articles for each madrasa in Tunis, water tower in Holland or mountain in Corsica is responsible for finishing the work on the articles in the set to a certain standard. Which can be quite low, incidentally. I have no objection to some of the association football and track and field articles that are being nominated for deletion. They may not be sparking entralling prose but they are there and tell you, should you want to know, who that person is. Similarly the articles about figures in the literature of Quebec, while only placeholders, do contain information and are preferable to nothing. Although I don't see machine translation as the huge problem some people apparently do, the translation tool also does need work. It might be nice if it sent articles to user space by default, and the articles could then be published from there there after polishing. Elinruby (talk) 14:26, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Guatemalan genocide was redirected, not deleted, for being a very poor translation, resulting in sentences like this (one sentence!): "The perpetración of systematic massacres in Guatemala arose of the prolonged civil war of this country centroamericano, where the violence against the citizenship, native mayas of the rural communities of the country in his majority, has defined in level extensivo like genocide -of agreement to the Commission for the Esclarecimiento Historical- according to the crimes continued against the minoritary group maya ixil settled between 1981 and 1983 in the northern demarcation of the department of The Quiché, in the oil region of the north Transversal Band, with the implication of extermination in front of the low demographic density of the etnia -since it #finish to begin to populate the region hardly from the decade of 1960- and the migration forced of complete communities to the border region in search of asylum in Chiapas, Mexico , desarraigadas by the persecution; in addition to becoming like procedure of tactical State of earth arrasada, tortures, disappearances, «poles of development» -euphemism for fields of concentration- and recurrent outrages against the women and girls ixiles, many of them dying by this cause, crimes of lesa humanity against of all the international orders of Human rights." Fram (talk) 08:56, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Heh. That's not unusual. But see there *is* an article, which was my primary concern. I should have checked before using it as an example. Here is the point I was trying to make. Since apparently I didn't, let me spell it out. -- I have put in a considerable amount of time on the "cleanup after translation" list so yes, I absolutely agree that horrible machine translations exist. I have cleaned many of them up. But. Many of the articles we keep are extremely trivial. Many get deleted that seem somewhat important, actually, just not to the particular person who AfD's them. I have seen articles on US topics get kept because of a link to Zazzle. (!) Perhaps my POV is warped by the current mess I am trying to straighten out in the articles on the French court system, but it seems to me that the english wiki is rather dismissive of other cultures. (Cour d'assises != Assizes, just saying; this is what we call a cognate.) That is all; just something that has been bothering me. Elinruby (talk) 05:59, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

The interim period ends today

But most articles have not been reviewed--it will apparently take many months. Of the ones still on the list that I have reviewed, I am able to find at least one-third which are worth rescuing and which I am able to rescue. We need a long continuation.If this is not agreed here, we will need to discuss it on WP:ANB. I would call the discussion "Emergency postponement of CSD X2" DGG ( talk ) 04:15, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

My understanding was that we were still working out how to begin the vaccination process. I'm happy if we simply moved to draft space instead of deleting at the end of the two weeks, but I'm not sure if that would address your concern. Tazerdadog (talk) 22:15, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

@S Marshall, Elinruby, Cryptic, No such user, Atlantic306, DGG, Acer, Graeme Bartlett, Mortee, Xaosflux, HyperGaruda, Ymblanter, BrightR, and Tazerdadog:

I call "reltime" on the section title! ;-) But seriously, it does end in a few days, and although I've been active in pushing to stick with the current date (June 6) to finalize this, so I almost hate to say this, but I'd like to ask for a short postponement, for good cause. This is due to two different things that have happened in the last few days, that materially change the picture, imho:

• CXT Overwrites - this issue about CXT clobbering good articles of long-standing, was raised some time ago, and languished, but has been revived recently, and we now (finally!) have the list of overwrites we were looking for in order to attack this problem: around 200 of them. All that remains to completely solve this for good, is to go through the list, and if the entry also appears in WP:CXT/PTR, strike it. See WP:CXT/PTR/Clobbers for details.
• Asian language review - this was stalled for lack of skilled translator/proofreaders in these and other languages. In response to a suggestion by Elinruby, I made an overture a few days ago about starting a recruitment effort. Since time is so short, rather than wait for a response, I went ahead and started one at WP:CXT/PTR/By language. In just three days this has started to bear fruit, with editors working on articles in Gujarati, Hindi, Hungarian, Farsi, Romanian and Arabic; with over 50 or 60 analyzed. I'm ready to ramp up the recruitment effort on Turkish, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, and more European languages (hopefully with the help of others here) but this does need some time as it's only got started literally in the last few days.

A postponement would give us the time to save all the clobbers, and make a significant dent in the articles from Asian and other languages for which we don't have a lot of expertise. Mathglot (talk) 06:19, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Notes

My understanding is that the clobbers have all been taken care of. This leaves the Asian language articles. I'm sure that if someone with the needed language skills comes along in the future, admins would be more than happy to mass-undelete the drafts so that they could be reviewed. However, I don't see a reason to postpone in the hope that this will occur. Tazerdadog (talk) 18:45, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Clobbers *are* taken care of, because we (two of us) have been taking care of them. Asian (and other) languages have plenty of translators td.hat could take care of them, it's not a matter of "hoping" for anything in the future, they exist now, so all we have to do is continue the effort begun only a few (5) days ago here. Going forward, this should be even more efficient, now we have the results of Cryptic's queries 19218 and 19243 created only today, and wikified here: WT:CXT/PTR/By language. We have editors working on Gujarati, Hindi, Bengali, Arabic, Romanian, and Hungarian, with more in the pipeline. This is a ton of progress in five days, and I wish it had been thought of a month ago, but it wasn't, and we are where we are. A postponement will simply allow ongoing evaluations by editors recruited less than a week ago and are delivering fast results, to continue instead of being cut off, and additional languages to be handled. Go look at WP:CXT/PTR/By language to see what has been accomplished so far, and at what speed. @Cryptic and Elinruby:. Mathglot (talk) 07:52, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Still need to recruit de, bg and ru. Also still very distracted by real life -- I have had one parent die and another go into hospice in the course of this project, and we have still gotten all this done, so it's not like we are dragging this out into never-never land. A majority of these articles are rescuable, esp as we bring in new editors who are not burned out by re-arranging the word order of the sentences for the 10,000 time. I think the really stellar articles have all been flagged now, but we have still found some very recently and I have said this before. Beyond the really stellar though are the many many not-bad articles and the more mediocre ones that are nonetheless easier to fix than to do over.I am in favor of an extension, personally, though as we all know I would not have started this at all if it were up to me. Many of the really bad articles were already at PNT.

I will be flying almost all day today but will check into wikipedia tonight. Elinruby (talk) 16:19, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm involved in many other things, and get here as I can, and each time I do, I find more than can and should be rescued. There are whole classes of articles, like those of small towns or sports stadiums, which have merely been assumed to be of secondary importance and not actually looked at. If we delete now, we will be judging article by the title. It is very tempting to easily remove all the junk by removing everything, but that;'s the opposite of sensibler ,and the opposite of WP:PRESERVE/ DGG ( talk ) 09:45, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

I found a couple today that kind of amazed me, they were so good. But let's play out the chinese fire drill. I'm afraid we're going to find out that we've all done a huge amount of work to delete 30 articles that need to be deleted and 350 whose authors will will not contribute again. Anyway. I have not touched stadiums, personally, because I suspect they will be deleted for notability so why? Ditto all these people with Olympic gold medals because I already have plenty to do without getting involved with articles that are certain to be deleted, not to mention all the argentinian actresses and whatnot.... grumble. Gonna go recruit some chinese and norwegians, because the articles are just going into some other namespace we can still send links to right? Elinruby (talk) 02:14, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

The plan is to draftify the articles prior to deletion, but I think deletion can be postponed basically indefinitely once they are draftified Tazerdadog (talk) 02:31, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

@Tazerdadog: I'd like to be sure of that. This is why you lose editors, wikipedia... anyway. Am cranky at the moment. Let me get done what I can with this and then I'll have some things to say. Hopefully some intelligent and civil things. Are we really getting articles from PootisHeavy still? Elinruby (talk) 02:46, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

@Elinruby: Fixing pings like you just did doesn't work. Pings only work if you sign your post in the same edit and do nothing but add content. Pppery 02:49, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

@Elinruby: The second part statement I made above is a departure from the established consensus as I understand it. The plan which achieved consensus was to draftify, hold in draft for just long enough to check for massive clerical errors, and then delete. I floated the above statement to try to gain consensus to hold the articles in draft space for longer (or indefinitely). While it is important to get potential BLP violations and gross inaccuracies out of mainspace in a timely manner, i don't think it is nearly so important to delete the drafts, especially if salvageable to good articles are regularly being pulled out of them. Tazerdadog (talk) 03:06, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

@Tazerdadog: Thanks for the suggestion. I think that would help limit the potential for damage and it would alleviate some of my concerns. My assessment differs widely from what I keep reading on this board, but, hey. If anyone cares I would say that 10% of these articles are stellar and very advanced and sophisticated translations. Don't need a thing. Another 10% are full or partial translations, quite correct, of articles that do not meet en.wiki standards for references or tone but do faithfully reflect the translated article. Many of these are extremely boring unless you are doing nitty-gritty research into something like energy policy in Equatorial Guinea, but they then become important... About another 5% I cannot read at all and let's say another 10% are heavy going and require referencing one or more equivalent articles in other languages. Say 5% if anyone ever gets around to dealing with PootisHeavy. The rest are... sloppy english but accurate, unclear but wikilinked, or some other intermediate or mixed level. This has not, in my opinion, been a good use of my time and I have stopped doing any translations, personally, until we get some sanity here. The whole process, it seems to me, simultaneously assumes that translation is easy and also that it is of no value. If wikipedia does not value translation then -- argh. It just makes me to see a good organization eat its own foot this way, is all. Off to see if I can catch us a nepali speaker ;) Elinruby (talk) 03:26, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

@Elinruby: No Nepali speakers needed, there are no Nepali articles in the batch, afaict. Also, Pootis stopped translating following a March 23 addition to his talk page, currently at #53 on the page.

@Tazerdadog: Whatever kind of draft/quarantine/hyperspace button you press, I plan to carry on with some of the Asian and other languages recruitment which we only recently got started on (which is going great, btw, and we could use some more help over at there if anyone wants to volunteer). I'll want to modify the editor recruitment template so that it can blue-link articles in whatever new location they reside in, so hopefully it will be a nice, systematic mapping of some sort so a dumb template can easily be coded to figure out the new location, given the old one. Just wanted to mention that, so that you can keep it in mind when you come up with the move schema. Naturally, if it's just a move to Draft namespace, then it will be an easy fix to the template.

There is one article in Nepali. I have not invited anyone for it yet, though I did do some of the less populated languages like latvian, indonesian and polish. I have several answers (da, es, pt as I recall) and most articles passed. I will put translated templates and strike those articles shortly. And yes, I just now struck one today. Anything about 3-d modeling is notable imho and I will work on it as long as I can read it at all. Also some of the bad translations about historical documents may be fixable given the response we are getting. If either of you gets enough help/time there are quite a few es/pt/de articles that I did that I believe to be correct but cannot myself certify in terms of the translated template Elinruby (talk) 00:29, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

@DGG: I withdraw my aspersions on the section title name. This offer valid for twenty-four hours. Mathglot (talk) 08:24, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

I do not understandd what you mean by this. I assume you mean you are withdrawing the attempt to start mass deletions immediately. If not, please let me know--for I will then proceed to do what I can to prevent them--and , if possible to try to change policy so that no X- speedy criteria can ever again be suggested. The more of these translations I look at, them ore I find that should be rescued. DGG ( talk ) 23:59, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

New FFD and TFD closer scripts

Scripts provide one-click (or few-click) closing options on WP:FFD / WP:TFD and their daily subpages, as well as the ability to hide/show already-closed discussions. See documentation at User:Evad37/FFDcloser & User:Evad37/TFDcloser, and use User talk:Evad37/FFDcloser.js / User talk:Evad37/TFDcloser.js to report any unexpected occurrences or provide other feedback. - Evad37 [talk] 00:26, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Also CFD now: User:Evad37/CFDcloser - Evad37 [talk] 02:14, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Request to regain AWB access

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I've been recommended to move my discussion of regaining AWB rights here for more input and help. I had my AWB access revoked in April for making ten superficial edits to Hong Kong talk pages by accident, after a warning telling me not to leave edits to Hong Kong talk pages a week or two prior. I indeed kept my word and stopped making those edits, but I didn't clear my default settings (as evidenced by this screenshot) and as a result, I accidentally made ten edits in the midst of doing another AWB task. The next day, I had my access taken away. At the WP:PERM request I said everything that was wanted; I would be more careful in the future, I will edit at a slower rate, and furthermore I pointed out that I've been learning Python over the months and I feel like I'm ready to edit with my own scripts.

I decided not to go to WP:BRFA or continue the discussion at WP:PERM because I know that I will get no resolution there, and making a bot account would be more complicated than just simply regaining AWB for my account. As I said before, I'm willing to agree to some potential terms/sanctions in order to get my rights back, which is mostly why I've come here. I'm acting in good faith and I am open to agreeing to some "community enforced limitations" blah as a result. JAGUAR  10:45, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) Given the couple of months gap you've given, and the understanding you have of the problem I don't personally see any issues in you starting to use AWB again. I'm not one for "community enforced limitations" but I would say that spending time to review every edit the tool is about to make is a must for AWB. As for Python (a good choice!), I would spend a little while testing them with your own account in your sandbox in a very controlled manner before considering WP:BRFA -- samtar ^{talk or stalk} 11:00, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
  • I'm with Samtar on this one. You've mentioned in a number of places that the only reason you lost your AWB access is because you accidentally let 10 insignificant edits slip. The fact that you don't seem to understand is that forgetting to clear your default settings isn't the problem here, what is a problem is the fact that if you had been checking every edit before you saved it, you wouldn't have made any of those talk page edits, so clearly you aren't checking the actually changes you're making before clicking the save button. That being said, you seem to have learnt from the experience, so I'd be willing to support regranting you AWB rights on the conditions that you check every edit before you save it, and that any administrator may revoke your access immediately if you make inconsequential edits with the tool. Omni Flames (talk) 11:10, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

You say "I am open to agreeing to some "community enforced limitations" blah", which is generous, thanks. Do you agree to check every AWB edit before saving? It doesn't seem that was your prior practice, otherwise the unfortunate talk page edits could not have happened. Begoon ^talk 11:22, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, most of all, I will check every edit before saving. JAGUAR  11:26, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. If other editors disagree with any AWB edits you make in future, what procedure will you follow? --Begoon ^talk 11:35, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

I will stop editing first and foremost, then I will further enquire what they disagreed with (if they weren't descriptive enough or if I didn't understand), and then lastly I would go back and undo all edits or make alterations, depending on the situation. JAGUAR  11:38, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you. That sounds about right. Sorry to "quiz" you. Begoon ^talk 11:46, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

*Support reinstatement of AWB rights. In the event of future problems, removal again, if warranted, would be cheap, and there seems no need to prevent productive work in the meantime. Begoon ^talk 11:50, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm confirming my support, acknowledging the comments below, and having read the linked discussions. If someone can show me damage caused that someone else had to clean up, I might reconsider. Begoon ^talk 12:19, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

I have to withdraw my support, since Fenix down provided the evidence I asked for. Sorry. Begoon ^talk 14:19, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

• Support, on the understanding that it can be revoked again should there be any more issues. It appears the userr understands his/her mistake, and the only way to know for sure is to give him/her a second chance. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 19:16, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. This isn't an accidental 10 edits. This isn't some absent-mindedness while reviewing repetitious edits, which admittedly even happens to me at times. This is a pattern of failing to review edits before the user saves them, ever. See here (warning: 2,000 contribs, long load time), where Jaguar makes just under 2,000 edits in an hour, sometimes hitting near 40 edits per minute. Given the loading time between edits, that is quite literally spamming the save button. This isn't a new problem, as I mentioned at the permissions request. Jaguar was repeatedly warned before his AWB access was removed, and his response at one point went so far as to say that it "isn't [his] fault" when miscategorization leads to faulty edits because of a failure to review each edit before saving it.

I'm not saying Jaguar should never have AWB access. I provided a clear way in which I would support that at WP:PERM, stating that he should identify a specific task he'd like to do, file a BRFA for semi-automated use using AWB, and set up an alternative bot account to allow easy oversight (even if the edits are being manually reviewed). This provides oversight for each of the many problems that Jaguar has had in the past. The requirement for clear consensus for a task at bot approvals will ensure that cosmetic edits aren't routinely made. The trial will uncover any unexpected cosmetic edits. The separation of AWB edits from regular edits through the use of an alternate bot account allows easy community oversight of the edits. The fact that Jaguar has decided to forum shop at AN without notifying any of the participants of the previous discussion instead of submit to some basic community oversight is telling, in my opinion. Pinging the other participants of the previous discussion at PERM, since I suspect they weren't notified either. @Kusma, Kudpung, and MusikAnimal: ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 06:25, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Also pinging the other participant in the discussion, Rich Farmbrough. Omni Flames (talk) 07:17, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm not forum shopping, as I said before, I was recommended in the PERM discussion that I should come here for more input and opinions. I brought the discussion here because nothing was happening at the previous discussion, and gaining my AWB rights for my account is much more straightforward than programming a bot. I got my AWB access removed for a very minor reason. I can't stress enough that I will look over every edit when I regain AWB. I said that here, and at the PERM discussion, but my good faith was ignored there, so I came here. JAGUAR  10:46, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

@Omni Flames: Thanks for that, and sorry to exclude you from the ping Rich Farmbrough. I missed your name when glancing back at the discussion. @Jaguar: I'm not asking you to code a bot. I'm asking you to submit a BRFA for a specific semi-automated task. When I say "bot" account, I just mean an alternate account to make AWB edits in the normal semi-automated manner. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 14:57, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose per Jaguar's attempt to paint his systematic lack of attention (to AWB edits and to other things, just read his talk page archives) as "10 accidental edits". I am not against second chances, but there have been already been plenty of second chances, and I have heard his promises to be better now too often already (and he has never done anything particularly urgent or convincingly useful with AWB anyway). Also, this discussion really belongs at WP:PERM/AWB, where everything has been said already. —Kusma (t·c) 09:11, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

*Conditional support. All I want is a clear understanding that he wil stay away from NPP with AWB and any other scripts and bots that are not specifically designed for that purpose. He avoidd answering that twice repeated request on the PERM page which gives me pause. The bottom line is if he gets his AWB bit back and goes anywhere near NPP with it, he'll loose more than his access to AWB. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 12:21, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry Kudpung, but I still don't understand why you're so against people patrolling new pages with AWB. You do realize that by patrolling new pages we don't actually mean patrolling them, but rather doing general fixes and fixing typos with it? How is using a list of newly created pages any different from using a list of random pages? If anything, new pages are better because they generally have more problems with them. You've still failed to give any reason whatsoever why you want him to stay away with NPP using AutoWikiBrowser. Omni Flames (talk) 13:03, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. Per BU Rob13 and Kusma. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 13:15, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - Whatever the ultimate reasons for removal of AWB access, the problems created by this user in no way were limited to the issues noted above. At one point Jaguar very speedily removed WLs to over a thousand articles on Russian places, completely overriding established consensus, not bothering to inform WP:RUSSIA of his intentions to make mass changes, and completely misunderstanding WP:OVERLINK, which made a lot of work for me and fellow admin Ezhiki. I'm not convinced that we won't see a similar situation again and per Kusma, I'm not really sure what benefit to the project his use of AWB is having, the benefits to me historically don't seem to have outweighed the cost in terms of other peoples time reverting and discussing on his talk page, not sure access for general use is warranted here. I agree with Rob, if this is a request to regain access for specific tasks then the best way for this to be achieved is as he describes, not only to avoid cosmetic changes but also to avoid incorrect ones. Fenix down (talk) 13:44, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

• You didn't mention that I went back and manually reverted all of my edits, as well as using AWB to re-add the links. JAGUAR  17:29, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose Per the concerns raised by others above. 40 edits a minute is a ridiculous rate; I couldn't edit nearly that quickly, even in AWB bot mode with zero delay. I don't see any evidence that Jaguar has changed either. He's been asked many times in the past to comply with AWB rules, and he failed to do so. Omni Flames (talk) 21:48, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - Not only have they had numerous second chances but I'm also extremely concerned with the fact they nearly smack 40 edits in a minute and I assume without reviewing any of the edits, The tool could be fucking up thousands of articles and you could be completely unaware, Quite frankly the editor will be better off doing manual editing like the rest of us. –Davey2010^Talk

I've just made User:JaguarBot, I don't know how to proceed next as I've never made an alternative account before but I'll go to WP:BRFA tomorrow and request that it be allowed AWB. I don't know how to enable AWB bot mode, but I'll look it up soon. JAGUAR  22:29, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

@Jaguar: Once your bot is approved (or approved for trial) you can request for it to be added to the bots section of Wikipedia:AWB/CP. Once it's added there, you can login to your bot using AWB and click the "bot" tab, and from there there's an option to make the bot's editing automatic, so you won't have to check the edits at all if your bot is approved. Omni Flames (talk) 23:00, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, I'll make a start on that tomorrow. I just want to apologise to everyone for making this thread, and I know that my posts here and at PERM have been excessive. It's just that I thought I would have been given a second chance by coming here, but I should have known better by coming to any noticeboard. Anyway, I'll start making arrangements soon! JAGUAR  23:04, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Just noting that bot mode isn't necessary if this is intended to be a semi-automated bot. Depends on the task, really. It can just be marked as a user if it's semi-auto. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 01:37, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Outside copyright violation

I'm not sure we can do anything about it, but if anyone knows better, this article is ripped almost entirely from this article.--v/r - TP 19:15, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

The editors who wrote that article could make a complaint - a license violation letter whose content and location here I don't remember, or a formal DMCA takedown request - for violating the BY part of the CC-BY-SA license. I don't know if one can do much more other than telling them - via email maybe? - that they need to attribute the text. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 19:29, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

The article on Hawaii Reporter is credited to Robert Kay, and indicates he has written other similiar articles for the site. http://www.hawaiireporter.com/about says that "Rob Kay, who serves as travel and shooting sports editor, has worked in Silicon Valley as a publicist and published award winning travel guides on Fiji and Tahiti for the Lonely Planet series". Perhaps there is some misunderstanding somewhere that might be cleared up by writing to the publication and asking them about it. MPS1992 (talk) 20:07, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

The editor who added much of the disputed content to Wikipedia (and thus retains certain rights) is Pbeekman, whose first edits were to the article about Allan Beekman, who in turn wrote Beekman, Allan (1998) [1982]. The Niihau Incident. Honolulu, HI: Heritage Press of Pacific. ISBN 0-9609132-0-3 which is currently cited as a source in the disputed Wikipedia article. The identity of Pbeekman seems reasonably easy to deduce. MPS1992 (talk) 20:19, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

@TParis: Anyone can send one of the "nicer" notices at WP:Takedown. If you want to send an official DMCA notice that has to come from a major contributor to that article though. --Majora (talk) 20:22, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

I sent them a note that they need to attribute the article to Wikipedia contributors.--v/r - TP 20:48, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

And I got an email back saying they will rectify. Haven't seen a change to the article yet, but I guess it's forthcoming.--v/r - TP 20:55, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Ironically enough, the page credits the ostensible author with a doctoral thesis on ethics.—Odysseus1479 08:59, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Proper CSD tag for {{OTRS received}} but not confirmed.

There has been a disagreement between administrators on how to properly handle these types of tags. I have been going through the old images at Category:Wikipedia files with unconfirmed permission received by OTRS, double checking the permissions ticket, and if the ticket has not been resolved I have been marking them for deletion. In my mind, these images are copyright violations as the permissions have been denied. So I tagged them F9. Previous tags were accepted by RHaworth and the images were deleted. The next batch of tags were declined by Diannaa citing that the proper CSD tag was F11. Stating that the person gets another week beyond what they have already been given (which for the images I have tagged as been months). Since there is a discrepancy in the decisions by two different admins I am posting here to get more input from additional administrators and the community alike. Which tag should be applied to these old images that have been {{OTRS received}} but not {{OTRS permission}}? --Majora (talk) 01:12, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

I'd say F11, without hesitation. F9 states, unambiguously, "This does not include images with a credible claim that the owner has released them under a Wikipedia-compatible free license." If the claim weren't credible, the image should have remained deleted pending OTRS; that the claim eventually turned out not to be valid doesn't change things. No need to wait an extra week after tagging F11, however; the clock starts from when the uploader becomes provably aware that OTRS permission is necessary, not when the image is templated db-f11. The situation you describe seems squarely to fall into the 30-day OTRS-pending timeout to me, and I don't think it material that it spent much or all of that 30 days tagged OTRS-received rather than specifically OTRS-pending.

That said, the specific letter-number combination used to delete a page is of relatively little importance, and you're usually better off using {{db}} with an explanation instead of a bare {{db-f11}} or whatever when explanation is actually necessary. An image tagged "{{db|insufficient documentation received by OTRS for more than 30 days}}" by a user in the OTRS-members group would probably get speedied with little question or fanfare. —Cryptic 01:44, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

I'd say it should be tagged for {{OTRS received}} for 7 days, as that would be a 7-day period to respond after being notified their permission is inadequate. But yes, F11, but no waiting a week for the old ones. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 01:48, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

[edit conflict with BU Rob] Cryptic has a solid response. This may not exactly fit any of the speedy-deletion tags, but when we have absolute certainty that permission does not exist for a free license (quite different from not knowing that permission exists), we shouldn't bother waiting for a delayed speedy tag, or bothering with an FFD for that matter. Perhaps the most comprehensive solution would be to go to WT:CSD and get consensus for expanding F9 with something like "This criterion may also be used to delete images for which an OTRS email has been received that actively does not grant permission", since of course this would resolve the "which criterion" issue, but since an image that definitely doesn't have permission has no chance of surviving FFD, we can go with the IAR route and use Cryptic's custom-written speedy tag. Nyttend (talk) 01:54, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Rob, why wait? We know that permission doesn't exist; if the owner says something like "oops, okay, I grant permission for this image to be used under CC-BY-4.0", we can always undelete it when that email is received. Nyttend (talk) 01:55, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

@Nyttend: The WP:F11 criterion does state that it applies for this process. Which I didn't realize at the time I started going through these. For that, I apologize. However, it does not explicitly state that the F11 is immediate for these. Perhaps that would be a better thing to get clarified at WT:CSD. Or we can switch the criterion over to F9. In any case, it seemed odd to me to give these images and extra week when permissions have not been confirmed for months. --Majora (talk) 02:00, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Majora, as I read it, F11 is for cases of {{OTRS not received}} (yes, I know that doesn't exist), i.e. if the OTRS folks haven't gotten any emails at all, the criterion can be used. That's what I mean by "not knowing that permission exists", in contrast to an OTRS email that distinctly does not grant permission, which is what I mean by knowing "that permission does not exist". Nyttend (talk) 02:04, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Nyttend: Because around 75% of the time I get a response within 48 hours with an appropriate license. Commons uses a one week wait time before they get thrown (automatically) in speedy deletion categories, and they've had a lot more experience working out the kinks than enwiki has, so I think we should follow their lead. Keep in mind that many OTRS agents are not admins, and it is significantly more difficult to process permissions after a file has been deleted for them. I've seen both sides of the coin (sysop on enwiki, not on Commons), and I'm much faster on enwiki because I don't have to run to an admin every other ticket for information. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 02:06, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Also edit conflict, also re Nyttend: For all the same reasons mentioned on {{OTRS received}} - if the copyright holder may have sent what he thought was sufficient documentation, it's little draconian to immediately delete the image anyway if there hasn't been time for him to rectify any technical shortcomings. Does it need to be specifically cautioned against? Meh, I don't think so. Common sense applies, and most of the timeouts in image speedy deletion criteria are historical accidents anyway, since deleted images couldn't be restored before... mid-2006, I think? —Cryptic 02:09, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

@Nyttend, Cryptic, and BU Rob13: I started a RfC. Just to clear everything up on these images for everyone involved. See WT:CSD#Proper CSD tag for images that are OTRS received but not confirmed. --Majora (talk) 18:08, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Duplicate articles about school

Not sure if this is the correct place to post this, but Resource academia and Resource Academia appear to be duplicate articles about the same school. The former was April 2010 (last edited September 2013), while the latter was created in May 2010 (last edited January 2016). It seems that this should be a candidate for some kind of merge, just not sure how that needs to be done. FWIW, I came accross these while checking some non-free images; the latter article is using a non-free logo in its infobox. Anyway, thanks in advance. -- Marchjuly (talk) 04:49, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Update: Issue has been resolved by Kudpung as explained at WT:WPSCH#Pakistani schools. -- Marchjuly (talk) 12:56, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

DYK overdue

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The DYK update has been delayed by at least 6 hours now, I believe. If an admin can look in at T:DYK/Q and promote a set from the prep areas, it would be much appreciated. Regards, Vanamonde (talk) 06:07, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Update performed by Graeme Bartlett. Vanamonde (talk) 09:30, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Review of RfC on the classification of Jews on Template talk:Ethnic slurs

Hello all. Last week I closed this RfC on Template talk:Ethnic slurs. The debate concerned how ethnic slurs relating to Jews should be classified on {{Ethnic slurs}} - whether they should be a subset of Asians, Europeans, or a standalone category.

I have closed with the decision to classify them "standalone", in other words not as a subgroup of any continent-based ethnic groups on the template. I was an WP:ANRFC admin and was not involved in the debate before RfC closure. I closed the discussion based on my best-effort assessment of the arguments presented in the discussion.

Shortly after the RfC was closed, a long discussion Template talk:Ethnic slurs and emerged on my user talk page concerning the RfC outcome. I suggested that WP:DRN look at the issue but it was declined (my bad) as wrong forum. So I'm bringing the issue to AN for wider scrutiny. Deryck C. 14:29, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Participant summaries from WP:DRN#Template talk:Ethnic slurs

Extended content

Summary of dispute by ChronoFrog Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. I guess I'll begin by explaining why I am concerned about the outcome of the RfC. It is mostly a copy/paste of what I wrote on Deryck's page, but I am on my way out the door so I don't have enough time to craft anything original. To recap, the dispute was about whether or not Jews should remain in the West Asian/Middle Eastern category, where they had been for the past 3-4 years at least. A number of editors rejected this categorization on the grounds that A) Jews accept converts/newcomers, B) most Jews have lived in diaspora for centuries and C) genetic admixture with non-Jewish populations. Others argued that, based on WP:RS affirming that Jews are an ethnic/national group with collective descent (as determined by countless genetic studies) from Israel, in addition to the anthropological criteria (notably UN criteria/Martinez-Cobo) utilized in every other case like this (see also: List of indigenous peoples), Jews should remain under West Asian. In addition, points A, B, and C were contested on the grounds that A) all nations accept and integrate outsiders to varying degrees, and Jews are no different, B) living somewhere else, no matter how long, does not make someone indigenous to a particular territory (since this would mean that all colonial groups would eventually become indigenous); per Martinez-Cobo, indigeneity is defined through ethnogenesis, not longstanding presence and C) every nation/ethnic group has mingled with other ethnicities to some degree, including Jews. During the RfC, none of these concerns were addressed in any meaningful way, if at all. Instead, the discussion petered out after a few weeks, seemingly with a consensus that the template was fine as it was (with Jews and Arabs both having their own categories under the larger West Asian umbrella) with no counter-response or RS beyond A ) a non-RS blog (which had immediately been called out as such, with no response) and B ) repeated assertions of earlier arguments (which, again, had been promptly called out with the same counter-points/sources as before, and again, no response). I took it off my watchlist until I found that a final decision had been made seemingly based on majority vote. I went to Deryck's page to see what his reasoning was, but another heated argument with Electoralist ensued soon afterwards. I pulled up a list of RS that Human Trumpet Solo posted (with a few additions of my own) which had seemingly gone ignored in the initial RfC (see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Deryck_Chan#Challenging_RfC_closure_on_Template:_Ethnic_slurs). He asked me to verify the sources, so I linked him to the article they originally came from. None of the sources provided by Electoralist in justifying his proposal for change were sufficient enough for WP:DUE. One was a genetic study which examined the mtDNA line of Ashkenazi Jews, which I responded to by pointing out that mtDNA is only half of the equation. Y-DNA, in contrast, is overwhelmingly Semitic. Further, I provided a few links to autosomal and Y-DNA studies, as well as Harry Ostrer's book on Jewish genetics. His other source was a JVL article which only had one citation: JewFAQ (an independent, non-RS). I answered him by pointing this out. Overall, I believe the decision made to be a case of WP:NOTDEMOCRACY and WP:UNDUE, ignoring the abundance of WP:RS provided in the course of the RfC arguing against removing Jews from West Asian. ChronoFrog (talk) 23:40, 7 August 2016 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Jeffgr9 Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by Electoralist Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. This matter has been discussed at length and I believe at this point we are just seeing WP:FORUMSHOPPING and I don't see how, given that there has been an RFC that has been closed with a finding of consensus, it is necessary to bring it up again here nor is this the appropriate forum. As far as I can see, the criteria for reconsidering the closure set out at Wikipedia:Closing_discussions#Challenging_other_closures have not been met. User:Cunard has questioned the decision to reopen the DRN here. I'll also add that the small subgroup of editors who have been listed for this discussion lends itself to confirmation bias as it is simply the list User:ChronoFrog chose to notify of the original DRN discussion with Deryck Chan added on. As has been discussed ad nauseum, Jews as a people have a complex ethnic and genetic history and it is incorrect to say they are a "West Asian" or for that matter European group due to the degree of admixutures. User:ChronoFrog refers to genetic evidence that Askhenazi Jews (who constitute over 75% of the world Jewish population) are matrilineally descended from four European ancestors as "only half the picture" yet his solution completely ignores that half of the picture. A layperson's explanation of Ashkenazi genetics can be found in this LiveScience article Surprise: Ashkenazi Jews Are Genetically European and scholarly sources can be found in this article from the European Journal of Human Genetics "MtDNA evidence for a genetic bottleneck in the early history of the Ashkenazi Jewish population", a peer reviewed article which Google Scholar states has been cited by 78 other scholarly articles, as well as "Counting the Founders: The Matrilineal Genetic Ancestry of the Jewish Diaspora" a peer reviewed article cited by 87 other scholarly articles. As has been exhaustively both in the orpginal Talk page discussion as well as the Deryck Chan's talk page, there are several Jewish ethnic groups - Ashkenazi (European) Jews, Shephardic (Spanish/North African) Jews, Mizrachi (Arab or Middle Eastern) Jews (often conflated with Shephardic Jews), as well as Ethiopian Jews (and other sub-Saharan Jews) Desi Jews, Chinese Jews and others whose skin colour are white, brown, black, "yellow", etc. To say Jews are simply "West Asian" looks, to revisit User:ChronoFrog's quote at "only half the picture" as much as saying Ashkenazi Jews are European looks at only half the picture, let alone South Asian, Chinese, and Black Jews. Therefore, listing Jews as a standalone category in the template makes more sense rather than trying to shoehorn them into a particular ethnic subcategory (West Asian, European, or African) particularly when one considers that as a religion, Jews have accepted converts for millenia and will continue to do so meaning that admixturing will continue. While there is no such thing as a 'pure' ethnicity and all ethnic groups experience admixture, the composition of the Jewish people as a religion as well as a culture and ethnicity amplified by the Jewish history of disperal (diaspora) throughout the world means that admixturing has occured to a much greater degree and makes it impossible to simplistically place Jews under a single ethnic category. Electoralist (talk) 01:25, 8 August 2016 (UTC) Responding to User:Musashiaharon who states that many of the slurs involved support his claim that Jews can singularly be declared Middle Eastern - most of the slurs are actually aimed specifically at Ashkenazi Jews, one is aimed at Ethiopian Jews, one is aimed at Shephardic Jews who have converted to Christianity etc. Musashiaharon also argues that genetics is only one aspect of ethnicity. Culture, language and customs, indeed, are very important elements however there is no single Jewish culture or even language. Ashkenazi culture is distinct from Shephardic culture and the former is traditionally built around the Yiddish language (hence the term Yiddishkeit) which is a Germanic language with Hebrew influences and Slavic elements (depending on what part of Europe its speakers were in) has never been spoken by Shephardic, Mizrachi, South Asian or other Jewish populations. Similarly, Shephardic Jews have their own language traditionally, Ladino, which is derived from Spanish, and their own customs, cultural and even liturgical traditions and the other Jewish populations I mention all have their own distinct cultures and customs and speak different languages. There are overlaps and shared elements, of course, but the distinctions are enough to make it impossible to classify all the different varients of Jews as a singular, West Asian, ethnic group. Electoralist (talk) 01:52, 8 August 2016 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Musashiaharon This dispute has been continuing for over a month and is still quite active. The core question is how to categorize Jews among the other ethnic groups in the template. Before the dispute began on June 25, Jews were placed next to Arabs under [West] Asians, and had been categorized as such for several years. Currently the choices are to put Jews in a standalone category, or to group them as a Middle Eastern or West Asian ethnicity. (It was previously attempted to categorize them as White/European. This was quickly dismissed, because A) a large proportion of Jews are not Ashkenazic, and B) the beginnings of Jewish ethnicity, regardless the subgroup, are traceable to the Middle East, which still bears obvious influence on their internal and external associations and current way of life.) Before I state my opinion, I'll describe my criteria. An ethnicity is "a social group that shares a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like." It makes sense therefore, to categorize ethnicities by the origins of these defining elements. Because of this, I am in favor of categorizing Jews in general as a Middle Eastern or [West] Asian ethnicity, being that each of these defining elements is traceable to the Middle East. This is verified in linguistics (eg. Gersenius' Hebrew Grammar), historical writings (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews), Jewish philosophical writings (Maimonides' Guide for the Perplexed, and The Kuzari), and in Rabbinical writings on ritual law (Berachot 30a, Mishneh Torah, Laws of Agriculture: Terumot), as well as the Torah itself (Genesis 12, et al.). Genetics is a topic of secondary importance to ethnographers, who are mostly concerned with culture. Yet there too, clear genetic markers link Jews from all over the world to the Middle East (NCBI: Abraham's Children in the Genome Era). Some admixture with the local populations is present, as with any other ethnic group. However, given the overwhelming influence of cultural factors, this can hardly be said to negate or weaken the existence of the Jewish ethnicity in any clear or specific way. Such converts were considered fully Jewish by other Jews around the world, and were more often than not persecuted and ostracized from their previous social circles (eg. Lord George Gordon). Germane to this particular template of Ethnic slurs, the slurs themselves give further support to categorizing Jews as Middle Eastern. In particular, "Christ-killer" shows that Europeans positively identified their local Jews to be one and the same as the people who killed their god in the Land of Israel. Similarly, the term "Yid" developed from the High German "jüdisch," etc., which came from the Hebrew "Yehudi," or Judean, after Judah, the pre-eminent, royal tribe among the Jews in their own land (Online Etymology Dictionary: Yid). Parenthetically, Jews at large already had come to be called by that same term ("Yehudi", Judean) thousands of years earlier, regardless their tribal affiliation (eg. Mordecai the Benjaminite in Esther 2:5). Ultimately, "Judean" came to be shortened to "Jew," (Online Etymology Dictionary: Jew) and so even in the slurs themselves, Jews are acknowledged to be a Middle Eastern people. Musashiaharon (talk) 01:53, 8 August 2016 (UTC) Rebuttal to Electoralist The term "Christ killer" was not limited to the Jews in Europe, but also extended at the very least to the Jews in the Holy Land, Ashkenazic or not. During the Crusades, the crusaders massacred and enslaved Jews alongside Muslims in Jerusalem. They saw no difference between the Jews in the Holy Land and those Jews in Europe, and both communities suffered terrible bloodbaths throughout (E. Judaica: Christian-Jewish Relations: The Crusades). The distinctions between Ashkenazic, Sephardic, Polish, Yemenite, Moroccan, Chinese and other Jews are actually quite minor. They all observe the Sabbath starting Friday at sunset until Saturday nightfall. They all avoid mixing dairy with meat. They all observe Passover, Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur. They all wear Tefillin. They all wear the Tallit. They all put Mezuzot on their doorposts. They all pray the Amidah and say the Shema in the morning and the evening. The differences are only in details, like the direction they wrap the straps of the Tefillin, the pattern of stripes on the Tallit, small stylistic differences in the writing of the Mezuzot, and so on. In this template, splitting hairs like this is not useful and is WP: UNDUE. More importantly, all these Jewish communities consider each other part of their own people. For example, the Italian Jews gave refuge to and redeemed Jewish captives the crusaders brought back from the Holy Land, see above from E. Judaica. The Rambam gave instruction to Yemenite Jews via correspondence from Egypt. Ashkenazic Jews today study the Italian Bartenura's commentary on the Mishna and Yalkut Meam Loez, a Midrashic work originally written in Ladino. The Sephardi Halachic authority Rabbi Joseph Caro wrote the Shulchan Aruch, on which the Ashkenazic sage Rabbi Moses Isserles of Poland wrote his notes and commentary, HaMapah. Similarly, in Avkat Rachel, Caro expresses his esteem for the Rambam the customs of the Yemenite community and urges his student to not interfere with their customs. The unity of the Jewish community despite their geographical distance is exceptional. Musashiaharon (talk) 01:33, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Discussion

• Endorse Closure of RFC Jews are a unique subset of people and in terms of slurs, should not be placed under a specific category, be it Asian or Black or African. They are Jews. When a slur is hurled at a Jew, it is not because of them being Asian or African, it is because of them being Jewish. That is quite different than when a slur is hurled at an Asian, etc. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 14:48, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

• Just to add, that there is a distinction between the slurs. I am an American, I can be called a Fat American and I can be called a Jewish slur, same as with a African-American. If the slur is based on the color or religion, then it's not an American slur, but if it's based on where they live then of course it is. In the case of Jews, it is because of their religion, not the history of where they might have come from 1,000 years ago. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 15:01, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

• Endorse - Outcome was reasonable given the arguments (and relative strength of) presented. Personally I think anyone who seriously thinks Jewish ethnic slurs should be categorized as 'Asian' despite a significant amount of both Jews AND the people who started/currently using the ethnic slurs not being in fact, anywhere near Asia, needs a break. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:55, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

User:Only in death With all due respect, this makes no sense. Since when does residing in diaspora (Jews outside of Israel are called diaspora Jews for a reason) negate an ethnic group's identity?ChronoFrog (talk) 20:40, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

• Endorse numbers and strength of arguments make this a reasonable close. Both Arabs and Jews are standalone and for similar reasons. Other than grouping them together (middle easterners?) nothing other than standalone really makes sense and the discussion more-or-less reached that conclusion. A "no consensus" close would also have been possible, but not useful. Hobit (talk) 15:13, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

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They were, in fact, both grouped as Middle Easterners before Electoralist went on his crusade.ChronoFrog (talk) 20:48, 8 August 2016 (UTC) And I'd be fine with that too (personally) but it's reasonable to read the discussion to have consensus on the side of "stand alone". Though "no consensus to change" would also have been a reasonable close. Sometimes it comes down to admin discreteness. I don't think "Asian" was a possible reading of that discussion though. Hobit (talk) 21:38, 8 August 2016 (UTC) User: Hobit I agree with classifying them both as Middle Eastern. I would recommend changing your vote to reflect that if this is something you would truly back.ChronoFrog (talk) 22:06, 8 August 2016 (UTC) It's something I'd be happy with personally, but the question at hand is if the close reflected the consensus of the discussion. I think there were two possible closes that would be within discretion, "no consensus" and "standalone". The closer went with "standalone" which is, IMO, a reasonable reading of the discussion, so I must endorse. Hobit (talk) 08:54, 9 August 2016 (UTC) There was no overwhelming consensus either way. There isn't one here either.ChronoFrog (talk) 11:25, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

• Endorse It seems the most reasonable outcome. Slurs against Jews are based on their religion. Doug Weller talk 16:15, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

User:Doug WellerA great number of those slurs were ethnic in nature, so this is not true. Also, as the sheer volume of RS raised in previous discussions demonstrates, Jews are an ethnic/nation group, not a faith. One can be an atheist, an agnostic, or even a Buddhist and still be recognized as a Jew.ChronoFrog (talk) 20:40, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

• Endorse. I participated in the RfC after seeing the RfC notice, but I was not previously involved in the template page. I participated in the RfC over some time, responding to questions from other editors and also making some template edits that I hoped had been helpful and leaving a few unrelated suggestions on the talk page. I then took it off my watchlist, and was pinged to be aware of this discussion at AN. So that's my prior involvement. I observed that there was a real problem with the editing environment at the template page, and I ended up deciding that I should walk away because the editing environment was simply not worth my trouble (and I'm hardly an editor who shrinks from difficult editing topics!). The problem is that there is a very aggressive group of good-faith but inflexible editors who have extremely strong personal feelings about how the Jewish people should be classified, derived from their personal understandings of their own Jewish faith, and they are convinced that they are correct and that there must be no compromise over what is, in effect, divinely determined. When I came freshly to the RfC, my opinion was that the correct determination was what the close ended up being. And most of the other editors who came to the template page from the RfC notice as I did, also came to that conclusion. So that really was the consensus of editors who came to the RfC (as opposed to the editors who were already in the discussion before the RfC). But we were filibustered by editors who were convinced that they were right, based on things like their views that all Jews are really like citizens of Israel no matter where they reside, and should therefore all be classified as coming ultimately from West Asia. Just look at User talk:Deryck Chan to see what those arguments, and their verbosity, look like. The close was a good one. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:21, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

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One aspect you are ignoring is that one side (the side arguing in favor of Asian categorization) provided reliable sources. A ton of them, in fact. The other side posted a blog and not much else. I am hardly what you'd call inflexible, even on issues that directly impact me (like this one). My problem is that the arguments presented were weak and, in terms of the sources he did bring forth, WP:UNDUE. I also think you are ignoring the content of the arguments being made, which is part of the reason I brought this up with Deryck in the first place. So your characterization of those arguing in favor of Asian as intractable is highly unfair (especially in light of Electoralist's recalcitrance and immaturity throughout the whole ordeal). ChronoFrog (talk) 20:40, 8 August 2016 (UTC) See Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Electoralist (talk) 5:55 pm, Today (UTC−7) You really should take your own advice before hurling that accusation in my direction.ChronoFrog (talk) 6:12 pm, Today (UTC−7) Ultimately, this is why I took it off my watchlist. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:49, 8 August 2016 (UTC) User:Tryptofish Well, you did seemingly disparage our arguments ("but we were filibustered by editors who were convinced that they were right, based on things like their views that all Jews are really like citizens of Israel no matter where they reside, and should therefore all be classified as coming ultimately from West Asia. Just look at User talk:Deryck Chan to see what those arguments, and their verbosity, look like.") without offering any substantive reasons as to why they are wrong, or unencyclopedic, or not consistent with Wikipedia policy (it also seems as though you thought only one side was overzealous, which I find curious). My view is that if one does not wish to actually participate in the discussion and help us arrive at an agreement, they should stay out of it and not post drive-by "votes".ChronoFrog (talk) 21:58, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

• Endorse - While there are 1 or 2 very loud voices among the minority who have pursued this on Deryck's talk page and at DRN in what I view as an attempt at WP:FORUMSHOPPING the criteria at Wikipedia:Closing_discussions#Challenging_other_closures for challenging the closure have not been met. The closure and consensus determination were sound and all we've seen since the closure is a rehash of the same arguments over and over again. Electoralist (talk) 16:47, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

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I see that User:ChronoFrog (below) is again trying to reargue the RFC and is claiming the consesnsus has a lack of WP:RS in support. As has been discussed ad nauseum, Jews as a people have a complex ethnic and genetic history and it is incorrect to say they are a "West Asian" or for that matter European group due to the degree of admixutures. User:ChronoFrog refers to genetic evidence that Askhenazi Jews (who constitute over 75% of the world Jewish population) are matrilineally descended from four European ancestors as "only half the picture" yet his solution completely ignores that half of the picture. A layperson's explanation of Ashkenazi genetics can be found in this LiveScience article Surprise: Ashkenazi Jews Are Genetically European and scholarly sources can be found in this article from the European Journal of Human Genetics "MtDNA evidence for a genetic bottleneck in the early history of the Ashkenazi Jewish population", a peer reviewed article which Google Scholar states has been cited by 78 other scholarly articles, as well as "Counting the Founders: The Matrilineal Genetic Ancestry of the Jewish Diaspora" a peer reviewed article cited by 87 other scholarly articles. As has been exhaustively both in the orpginal Talk page discussion as well as the Deryck Chan's talk page, there are several Jewish ethnic groups - Ashkenazi (European) Jews, Sephardic (Spanish/North African) Jews, Mizrachi (Arab or Middle Eastern) Jews (often conflated with Sephardic Jews), as well as Ethiopian Jews (and other sub-Saharan Jews) Desi Jews, Chinese Jews and others whose skin colour are white, brown, black, "yellow", etc. To say Jews are simply "West Asian" looks, to revisit User:ChronoFrog's quote at "only half the picture" as much as saying Ashkenazi Jews are European looks at only half the picture, let alone South Asian, Chinese, and Black Jews. Therefore, listing Jews as a standalone category in the template makes more sense rather than trying to shoehorn them into a particular ethnic subcategory (West Asian, European, or African) particularly when one considers that as a religion, Jews have accepted converts for millenia and will continue to do so meaning that admixturing will continue. While there is no such thing as a 'pure' ethnicity and all ethnic groups experience admixture, the composition of the Jewish people as a religion as well as a culture and ethnicity amplified by the Jewish history of disperal (diaspora) throughout the world means that admixturing has occured to a much greater degree and makes it impossible to simplistically place Jews under a single ethnic category. Culture, language and customs, indeed, are very important elements however there is no single Jewish culture or even language. Ashkenazi culture is distinct from Shephardic culture and the former is traditionally built around the Yiddish language (hence the term Yiddishkeit) which is a Germanic language with Hebrew influences and Slavic elements (depending on what part of Europe its speakers were in) has never been spoken by Shephardic, Mizrachi, South Asian or other Jewish populations. Similarly, Shephardic Jews have their own language traditionally, Ladino, which is derived from Spanish, and their own customs, cultural and even liturgical traditions and the other Jewish populations I mention all have their own distinct cultures and customs and speak different languages. There are overlaps and shared elements, of course, but the distinctions are enough to make it impossible to classify all the different varients of Jews as a singular, West Asian, ethnic group. Electoralist (talk) 21:20, 8 August 2016 (UTC) Wonderful that you (conveniently) ignored my responses to those same exact points. Here's a refresher: "The title of that article ("Surprise, Jews are Genetically European") is highly misleading since the study it cites deals only with mtDNA, which is about half of the equation (and allegedly harder to pin down than Y-DNA). Y-DNA of Ashkenazim is almost entirely Semitic/Levantine. Autosomal studies show them to be about half-half, with the European side being largely Greek/Roman. "The contemporary Ashkenazi Jewish population, as characterised by several recent genetic studies, is approximately 600 to 800 years old and is probably the result of the fusion of ancestral European and Middle-Eastern populations, according to research published this week in Nature Communications. These previous studies have described Ashkenazi Jewish individuals as a genetically distinct population, close to other Jewish populations, as well as to present-day Middle-Eastern and European people. As is common in distinct populations, they demonstrate distinctive genetic characteristics including a high prevalence of genetic diseases, such as Parkinson’s disease, and breast and ovarian cancer. The authors also produced a model that indicates that the formation of the contemporary Ashkenazi Jewish population occurred 600 to 800 years ago (close to the time of the population bottleneck) with the fusion of two ancestral populations: ancestral European and ancestral Middle-Eastern. They also find that the ancestral European population went through a founding bottleneck when diverging from ancestral Middle Easterners 20.4 to 22.1 thousand years ago, around the time of the Last Glacial Maximum. The ancestors of both of these populations underwent another bottleneck, probably corresponding to an Out-of-Africa event." http://www.natureasia.com/en/research/highlight/9440 Additionally, this study shows that Ashkenazim and other diaspora groups are closer to Samaritans on the Y-DNA line than Palestinian Arabs. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/humu.20077/abstract;jsessionid=10F76852AD872606B6B2DA06BF5C221E.f03t02 This one is even more direct. According to Behar, the most parsimonious explanation for this shared Middle Eastern ancestry is that it is "consistent with the historical formulation of the Jewish people as descending from ancient Hebrew and Israelite residents of the Levant" and "the dispersion of the people of ancient Israel throughout the Old World". http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v466/n7303/full/nature09103.html Lastly, nobody is claiming that Ashkenazim have no European mixture, or cultural influences. The point is that it's irrelevant. For one thing, this discussion is about Jews as a whole, not just Ashkenazim. Second, admixture or cultural influences obtained in diaspora (there's that word again) does not change or negate the ethnic identity of a people. Native Americans have European ancestry too; I don't see anyone arguing that they should no longer be classified as aboriginal North Americans (to use one example). Ashkenazim, Sephardim, Mizrahim, Bene Israel, and so on are diaspora subgroups, not ethnicities in and of themselves. But while we're on that subject, according to DNA studies Ethiopian, Chinese, and Indian Jews have Israelite descent as well (albeit to an obviously lesser degree).ChronoFrog (talk) 21:34, 8 August 2016 (UTC) Likewise, your skin color argument is equally silly, since there are many Ashkenazic Jews who have brown skin and Sephardim/Mizrahim who have white skin. The overlap is significant, as has been mentioned countless times. Indian, Ethiopian, and East Asian Jews more closely resemble their host populations because they assimilated to a much greater degree, but they have Israelite descent as well.ChronoFrog (talk) 21:46, 8 August 2016 (UTC) Admixturing is not irrelevent (nor is the fact that Jews accept converts and there have been a steady stream of converts from other ethnicities for centuries) it is the reason why there are numerous ethnocultural groups within the Jewish people and the reason it is difficult to classify Jews ethnically. Jews are a complex ethno-cultural-religious population. Ashkenazi Jews are predominantly matrilineally descended from Europeans and patrilineally from Middle Easterners, moreover they are or were located in Europe for close to 2,000 years and were influneced linguistically (hence the Yiddish language and culturually. As ethnography is also a matter of language, culture, and customs this is hardly irrelevent. Nor are the language, culture, and customs of Sephardic Jews that are distinct from those of Askhenazi, those of Ethiopian Jews (who are Black), South Asian Desi Jews (who appear South Asian) etc. To shoehorn all Jews under the category of "West Asian" is simplistic and negates half the picture. In any case, you are attempting to reargue the RFC once again and are veering into WP:FORUMSHOPPING and have identified no valid reasons for reopening the RFC. Electoralist (talk) 21:55, 8 August 2016 (UTC) Again, this has been addressed. Every population has absorbed foreign admixture to varying degrees, so to make genetic purity into a prerequisite for inclusion under a particular category is ludicrous. There is no such thing as a genetically pure population, especially when it comes to ethnoreligious/national groups (as defined by the RS that you keep ignoring) such as Jews. So yes, it is irrelevant. As to your other argument, I already addressed that. Ashkenazim, Ethiopian Jews, Desi Jews, etc are diaspora subpopulations of Jews, not separate ethnicities (again, I refer you back to the RS).ChronoFrog (talk) 22:17, 8 August 2016 (UTC) I'll add that in Template_talk:Ethnic slurs you made it quite clear after the RFC closed that you intend "to keep it going until the template [is] to your liking" and that you are "going to challenge this decision until an appropriate change is made" which supports my belief that you are WP:FORUMSHOPPING and intend to just keep rehashing the same arguments over and over again. I think you need to stop now. Electoralist (talk) 22:01, 8 August 2016 (UTC) No, THIS is what I said. "I rejected it because I was exhausted and had no interest in perpetuating a discussion that had clearly run out of steam, and it was obvious (at least to me) that you intended to keep it going until the template was to your liking." Not that I'm surprised that you would take my quote out of context.ChronoFrog (talk) 22:17, 8 August 2016 (UTC) Yes, my apologies in my haste just now I misread my comment (quoting you) on the talk page which was actually a response to what you've just reposted above and I forgot the context of the first quote (though not the second). My reply to the original comment you've just reposted was: "The irony of your statement is that it is you who are attempting "to keep it going until the template [is] to your liking". You even said earlier today "I'm going to challenge this decision until an appropriate change is made" Electoralist (talk) 00:09, 5 August 2016 (UTC) and, indeed, this comment has proven to be correct. Electoralist (talk) And I responded with this. I'm not interested in keeping the discussion going. As far as I'm concerned, it died down weeks ago as it should have. I'm petitioning for a change that more closely adheres to Wiki policy and takes our concerns into account.ChronoFrog (talk) 12:35, 5 August 2016 (UTC) ChronoFrog (talk) 22:54, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose - After the RfC closed, I noticed a number of policy related errors (notably WP:RS, WP:UNDUE, WP:NOTDEMOCRACY, etc) with the final decision. I went through the proper channels to see what could be done about it, and this led me to contacting Deryck who set up a DRN yesterday, although it was locked after only an hour due to it being in the wrong forum. We were instructed to bring this to AN, so here we are. The reason I am writing this is because I want to preempt any accusations of WP:FORUMSHOPPING so that we may focus our attention on the underlying dispute.

To recap, the dispute itself was about whether or not Jews should be categorized as West Asian/Middle Eastern, as they had been for several years. A number of editors rejected this categorization on the grounds that A) Jews accept converts/newcomers, B) most Jews have lived in diaspora for centuries (primarily the result of displacement via foreign colonialism) and C) genetic admixture with non-Jewish populations. Others argued that, based on WP:RS affirming that Jews are a West Asian national group with ethnic ties/collective descent (as determined by countless genetic studies) from Israel, in addition to the anthropological criteria (notably UN criteria/Martinez-Cobo) utilized in every other case like this (see also: List of indigenous peoples), Jews belong under West Asian. In addition, points A, B, and C were contested on the grounds that A) all nations accept and integrate outsiders to varying degrees, and Jews are no different, B) living somewhere else, no matter how long, does not make someone indigenous to a particular territory (as this would mean that all colonial groups would eventually become indigenous); per Martinez-Cobo, indigeneity is defined through ethnogenesis, not longstanding presence and C) every nation/ethnic group has mingled with other ethnicities to some degree, and Jews are no exception.

None of these concerns were addressed in any meaningful way, if at all. Instead, the discussion petered out after a few weeks, seemingly with a consensus that the template was fine as it is (with Jews and Arabs both having their own categories under the larger West Asian umbrella) with no counter-response or RS beyond A ) a non-RS blog (which had immediately been called out as such, with no response) and B ) repeated assertions of earlier arguments (which, again, had been promptly called out with the same counter-points/sources as before, and again, no response). It also seemed as though many of the responses came from editors without much in the way of prior exposure to this topic, since there were a few editors who appeared to have backtracked on their initial support for the proposal as discussion wore on. I took it off my watchlist until I found that a final decision had been made seemingly based on majority vote.ChronoFrog (talk) 20:34, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

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This has nothing to do with the ancient origin of the Jews, which then may be classified as Asian, this has to do with categorization of slurs as it stands with Jews. Jews today are not Asian, they are Jews. Some are Asian, some are African, many are American. I am Jewish but I am not Asian. It does not make sense to categorize Jewish with regards to slurs as Asian. Sir Joseph (talk) 20:49, 8 August 2016 (UTC) So you're saying that being Asian requires actually living there? If that were the case, no Asian diaspora would fit in that category.ChronoFrog (talk) 20:53, 8 August 2016 (UTC) No, that's not what I'm saying. Sir Joseph (talk) 20:55, 8 August 2016 (UTC) Your argument is that Jews are no longer a West Asian ethnic group because they left (or rather, were forcibly displaced) the Middle East. So at least from my vantage point, that seems to be precisely what you are saying.ChronoFrog (talk) 20:58, 8 August 2016 (UTC) If that's not what you're saying, then what *are* you saying?ChronoFrog (talk) 21:11, 8 August 2016 (UTC) Even if your argument was not ridiculous on the face of it, per commong naming, it would result in 'Arab' and 'Jew' being grouped under 'Middle East' rather than 'West Asian' (which is generally used only historically). I can see that going down well. Only in death does duty end (talk) 21:23, 8 August 2016 (UTC) User:Only in death You call my argument ridiculous (despite the heaps of RS provided to back it up, on the template and Deryck's page, but I can post them here too) without articulating how or why. It would be helpful if you could at least elaborate. Also, I am not opposed at all to placing Jews and Arabs under Middle Eastern (or Asian). They had been grouped together on that template for the past 4 years, with no issue.ChronoFrog (talk) 21:27, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose One of the main concepts that those who "Endorse" do not seem to realize remains that Judaism does not solely describe the Jewish "religion," but a Semitic Peoplehood, Tribe, Ethnoreligious group, and in some aspects a "Race;" but even being a "Race" would not mean that Jews did not originate as one people within the Southwest Levant; in fact, it would support Judaism's ethnogenesis within that region. Look at the culture, philosophies, phenotypical and genetic features that Jews have carried throughout the ages since their formation in the Land of Canaan. Look at Jews' relations to other Semitic peoples: Example 1, Example 2. Look at our languages and the various derivations as well as amalgamations to other languages (Yiddish, Ladino, etc.), we are a united people with core, root, Semitic/Afro-Asiatic, Ethnocultural beliefs (like Tzedakah, Tikkun Olam, and Torah) and yet different/intersecting branches that have branched out due to Diaspora, enslavement, intermarriage, etc. (One prominent example being in 70 CE when Titus besieged Jerusalem. Such variations occur within all Peoples, but every People has their own Peoplehood, even if they have mixed with other Peoples. Therefore, all ethnic groups within the ethnic slur chart should either be separated without umbrella ethnographic groups involved (e.g. not categorized by Asian (East, Central, South, etc.), African, European, etc.), OR Jews, Arabs, and other Afro-Asiatic Peoples should share an ethnographic umbrella of West Asians/North Africans, especially given the fact that Israel is a central part of what it means to be a Jew, whether by genetics, or sociopolitical affiliation (e.g. joining the Tribe, converting, etc.); on a related note, Israel is also located on the African Plate, so please also take that into consideration. Todah Rabah, and talk with you soon! Jeffgr9 (talk) 21:15, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

In addition, by not including West Asians/North Africans, the editors here exclude all Semitic/Afro-Asiatic peoples from having an ethnographic base for their ethnic slurs on the chart. Seriously, it would be omitting West Asian/North African/Middle Eastern as a possible region toward which people directed slurs (i.e. the term "Philistine," to connote Jews' longtime rival neighbor and for which their land was renamed by Romans after besieging Jerusalem; and the basis for the term "Anti-Semitism," coined by Wilhelm Marr, which should not mean to suggest Jews are not Semites, but rather, that Jews should not be negatively spurned for being Semitic. The Nazis'/Europeans' negative use for "Semite" and their negative attribution to Jews' Semitic origins, probably contributed a great deal to the miscommunication/miseducation that many of our people suffer today in terms of figuring out how to ethnically/racially describe our people). Again, Todah Rabah. Jeffgr9 (talk) 21:31, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

And another point, in case anyone is confused, "ethnicity" and "race" are not solely defined by skin tone. Again, Diaspora. Please make a West Asian/North African (Afro-Asiatic/Middle Eastern) umbrella category within the template for peoples like Jews, Arabs, Samaritans, Yazidis, Kurds, Druze, Bahá'í, etc. Jeffgr9 (talk) 22:49, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose Per Jeffgr9 and ChronoFrog.The Human Trumpet Solo (talk) 21:52, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
• Endorse without bringing any new arguments in, as many opposers here are doing, the closure was reasonable for what was typed there. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:56, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

User:Graeme Bartlett These are the same arguments that appeared in the RfC (same sources, too).ChronoFrog (talk) 22:00, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Exactly, you are simply rehashing the same arguments over and over again in the hopes that if you repeat yourself enough you will wear everyone else down. That's precisely why you have no valid reason to reopen the RFC. Electoralist (talk) 22:10, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

If anyone had responded to (let alone debunked) the RS and arguments the first time, I would have no need to bring them up again. But nobody did, and I'm increasingly beginning to understand why (obviously, because they *can't* respond to them).ChronoFrog (talk) 22:17, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Exactly. Virtually no one has responded to most of my points. It is insulting, and does not make sense how people can move forward without addressing everyone's points. Jeffgr9 (talk) 22:24, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

You and ChronoFrog are completely missing the point of this discussion. This is not a rerun of the RFC. No one will respond to your points because what is being assessed here is not the content of the RFC but whether the close of the RFC was appropriate. The closing admin is expected to read through the arguments made in the RFC and the sentiment of the contributing editors. Any admin that discusses the content becomes involved and cannot make a close. As long as you approach this discussion as a rerun of the RFC, all that will happen is you will become increasingly frustrated because your expectations are not, and cannot be, met. Blackmane (talk) 02:32, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

• Endorse. There appears to be a generally even balance between giving the Jews a separate line and not giving them a separate line, but the latter is split between Europeans and Asians, with occasional other stuff, and giving the Jews a separate line appears to be the closest to getting consensus. As a Christian from a Levitical family, I'm familiar with a lot of these ideas, and as I read through the discussion, I found myself first agreeing with one side, then the other, then the first, then the other, etc.; everyone's arguments tend to make sense, so we have to find a way to accommodate all of them as well as we can. "No consensus" generally defaults to status quo ante bellum, but if there's reason not to close this in favor of a separate line, there's even better reason not to close it in favor of the pre-discussion form. WP:NOTAVOTE, but as I noted above, it's not as if any position is making significantly stronger arguments than the others; all of them make good points, but since we have to adopt exactly one of the positions (putting them in both places would be an absurd misapplication of WP:NPOV), the best way to do this is going first past the post and allowing the weight of numbers to count. Nyttend (talk) 22:30, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

User:Nyttend While I don't agree with your position (the consensus prior to moving Jews and Arabs to standalone was that they should stay under a Middle Eastern category; also, the side with RS should, as a general rule, trump the side without it), I appreciate that you *at least* read and considered our arguments. That seems to be something nobody else in here is willing to do.ChronoFrog (talk) 22:36, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Comment It appears that most of the "Endorse" comments in here are drive-by votes. That is, they dismissed the ideas/RS brought forward by the "Oppose" side without giving any reasons, or participating in discussion here. This is the same problem that caused me to challenge Deryck's decision in the first place. The strength of arguments is determined through debate and dialogue, not simply repeating one's pre-deliberative opinions and intuitions. I have addressed, and refuted, every single argument against categorizing Jews and Arabs as West Asian/Middle Eastern, but there are no responses to be found (with few exceptions, and I refuted those too). That is deeply frustrating to me, and not conducive at all to genuine consensus building.ChronoFrog (talk) 22:48, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

The reason for this is that this section on AN is supposed to be assessing the close, not to repeat the debate. A new debate should probably happen at the same talk page, but listing it here has brought in a new audience. Those opposing are not saying why the close is wrong, just repeating or boosting the argument that should have gone into the RFC. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:13, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

User: Graeme Bartlett Would it be possible to start a new RfC on this issue in the future, per WP: CCC?ChronoFrog (talk) 23:37, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. For many of the reasons already stated by others, primarily the error in viewing Jews as strictly, or even primarily, a religious group. Jews are a nation, and an ethno-religious group. Jews who are Jewish by birth and perhaps by culture, but not by the practice of religion, are still subjected to the same slurs as religious Jews, which clearly blows apart the notion that the slurs are religious. I have also noticed that those who are endorsing this decision have not provided any legitimate responses to the numerous points raised by the "Oppose" side - they simply keep repeating the same arguments that have been amply refuted by ChronoFrog and Jeffgr9. I agree with those who have suggested going back to a separate grouping for the Middle East, as opposed to the rest of Asia, but in the absence of a Middle Eastern category, it makes logical sense to group both Arabs and Jews as (west) Asian. PA Math Prof (talk) 22:58, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

That's because the purpose here is not to repeat the debate but to assess the closure. That the oppose side insists on doing the former is indicative of there being no actual criteria met for reopening the RFC under Wikipedia:Closing_discussions#Challenging_other_closures. Electoralist (talk) 00:59, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Part of that assessment entails examining the policy-related errors made in said closure, including the dismissal of WP:RS and violation of WP:UNDUE. Aside from that, most editors who have posted here gave their opinions on the subject, and thus I responded.ChronoFrog (talk) 01:12, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. With all due respect to the dedicated volunteers who maintain Wikipedia, I must say, the bureaucracy here is terrible. How is it possible to expect even the experienced editors here to make real decision? An huge debate has been dumped on their laps that's been active for more than six weeks on five different forums! This is not fair to the newcomers and isn't fair for the topic itself. I preferred the earlier discussion at the DRN, which was much more promising. There, the original participants were invited to present their summaries before discussion began, and real discussion was taking place before it got shut down. Though much damage is already done, I'm copying that discussion here above, since that content should have been here from the inception. Musashiaharon (talk) 01:16, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Extended content

"An huge (sic) debate has been dumped on their laps that's been active for more than six weeks on five different forums!" - Indeed, that's because the minority has been engaging in WP:FORUMSHOPPING. However, the purpose here is not to rehash the argument. Electoralist (talk) 01:25, 9 August 2016 (UTC) Untrue. And I think that rather than more bureaucratic noise, we'd like to see some RS for your perspective. I'm sure it was by mistake, but the blog post and Usenet article you have provided do not fit the bill. Musashiaharon (talk) 02:03, 9 August 2016 (UTC) I already posted the link to the peer reviewed European Journal of Human Genetics article as well as a second peer reviewed article which, between them, are cited a total of 169 times by scholarly sources as well as the LiveScience article putting the DNA findings in lay terms. I'm sure you ignored them by mistake. However, again, the purpose of WP:ANI is not to rehash the argument ad nauseum which is something you and ChronoFrong seem determined to do. As for your "untrue" remark, the fact that by your admission the argument is spread out over "five different forums!" is evidence of WP:FORUMSHOPPING. Electoralist (talk) 02:14, 9 August 2016 (UTC) Yeah, you did post that study, and I pointed out that A ) it deals only with the mtDNA half, not the entire genome, B ) nobody disputed that Ashkenazim have European mixing, but that it is not sufficient to declassify them as a MENA group (as they are a diaspora subgroup of a Middle Eastern ethnicity), and C ) it's only one source, whereas the Asian side has provided close to a dozen (and I could easily gather more, but those sources alone should have been more than enough). As for your accusations of forum shopping, I refer you back to my original post in here. "After the RfC closed, I noticed a number of policy related errors (notably WP:RS, WP:UNDUE, WP:NOTDEMOCRACY, etc) with the final decision. I went through the proper channels to see what could be done about it, and this led me to contacting Deryck who set up a DRN yesterday, although it was locked after only an hour due to it being in the wrong forum. We were instructed to bring this to AN, so here we are. The reason I am writing this is because I want to preempt any accusations of WP:FORUMSHOPPING so that we may focus our attention on the underlying dispute." Given the above, this does not qualify as forum shopping. I suggest taking the time to read what "forum shopping" actually means.ChronoFrog (talk) 02:36, 9 August 2016 (UTC) I'm going to bring musashi's replies from the DRN down here, because there are even more WP:RS provided within. ==== Summary of dispute by Musashiaharon ==== This dispute has been continuing for over a month and is still quite active. The core question is how to categorize Jews among the other ethnic groups in the template. Before the dispute began on June 25, Jews were placed next to Arabs under [West] Asians, and had been categorized as such for several years. Currently the choices are to put Jews in a standalone category, or to group them as a Middle Eastern or West Asian ethnicity. (It was previously attempted to categorize them as White/European. This was quickly dismissed, because A) a large proportion of Jews are not Ashkenazic, and B) the beginnings of Jewish ethnicity, regardless the subgroup, are traceable to the Middle East, which still bears obvious influence on their internal and external associations and current way of life.) Before I state my opinion, I'll describe my criteria. An ethnicity is "a social group that shares a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like." It makes sense therefore, to categorize ethnicities by the origins of these defining elements. Because of this, I am in favor of categorizing Jews in general as a Middle Eastern or [West] Asian ethnicity, being that each of these defining elements is traceable to the Middle East. This is verified in linguistics (eg. Gersenius' Hebrew Grammar), historical writings (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews), Jewish philosophical writings (Maimonides' Guide for the Perplexed, and The Kuzari), and in Rabbinical writings on ritual law (Berachot 30a, Mishneh Torah, Laws of Agriculture: Terumot), as well as the Torah itself (Genesis 12, et al.). Genetics is a topic of secondary importance to ethnographers, who are mostly concerned with culture. Yet there too, clear genetic markers link Jews from all over the world to the Middle East (NCBI: Abraham's Children in the Genome Era). Some admixture with the local populations is present, as with any other ethnic group. However, given the overwhelming influence of cultural factors, this can hardly be said to negate or weaken the existence of the Jewish ethnicity in any clear or specific way. Such converts were considered fully Jewish by other Jews around the world, and were more often than not persecuted and ostracized from their previous social circles (eg. Lord George Gordon). Germane to this particular template of Ethnic slurs, the slurs themselves give further support to categorizing Jews as Middle Eastern. In particular, "Christ-killer" shows that Europeans positively identified their local Jews to be one and the same as the people who killed their god in the Land of Israel. Similarly, the term "Yid" developed from the High German "jüdisch," etc., which came from the Hebrew "Yehudi," or Judean, after Judah, the pre-eminent, royal tribe among the Jews in their own land (Online Etymology Dictionary: Yid). Parenthetically, Jews at large already had come to be called by that same term ("Yehudi", Judean) thousands of years earlier, regardless their tribal affiliation (eg. Mordecai the Benjaminite in Esther 2:5). Ultimately, "Judean" came to be shortened to "Jew," (Online Etymology Dictionary: Jew) and so even in the slurs themselves, Jews are acknowledged to be a Middle Eastern people. Musashiaharon (talk) 01:53, 8 August 2016 (UTC) ===== Rebuttal to Electoralist ===== The term "Christ killer" was not limited to the Jews in Europe, but also extended at the very least to the Jews in the Holy Land, Ashkenazic or not. During the Crusades, the crusaders massacred and enslaved Jews alongside Muslims in Jerusalem. They saw no difference between the Jews in the Holy Land and those Jews in Europe, and both communities suffered terrible bloodbaths throughout (E. Judaica: Christian-Jewish Relations: The Crusades). The distinctions between Ashkenazic, Sephardic, Polish, Yemenite, Moroccan, Chinese and other Jews are actually quite minor. They all observe the Sabbath starting Friday at sunset until Saturday nightfall. They all avoid mixing dairy with meat. They all observe Passover, Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur. They all wear Tefillin. They all wear the Tallit. They all put Mezuzot on their doorposts. They all pray the Amidah and say the Shema in the morning and the evening. The differences are only in details, like the direction they wrap the straps of the Tefillin, the pattern of stripes on the Tallit, small stylistic differences in the writing of the Mezuzot, and so on. In this template, splitting hairs like this is not useful and is WP: UNDUE. More importantly, all these Jewish communities consider each other part of their own people. For example, the Italian Jews gave refuge to and redeemed Jewish captives the crusaders brought back from the Holy Land, see above from E. Judaica. The Rambam gave instruction to Yemenite Jews via correspondence from Egypt. Ashkenazic Jews today study the Italian Bartenura's commentary on the Mishna and Yalkut Meam Loez, a Midrashic work originally written in Ladino. The Sephardi Halachic authority Rabbi Joseph Caro wrote the Shulchan Aruch, on which the Ashkenazic sage Rabbi Moses Isserles of Poland wrote his notes and commentary, HaMapah. Similarly, in Avkat Rachel, Caro expresses his esteem for the Rambam the customs of the Yemenite community and urges his student to not interfere with their customs. The unity of the Jewish community despite their geographical distance is exceptional. Musashiaharon (talk) 01:33, 9 August 2016 (UTC) ChronoFrog (talk) 02:44, 9 August 2016 (UTC) "They all observe the Sabbath starting Friday at sunset until Saturday nightfall." Actually Mushashiaron, I think ChronoFrog differs from you on that point. Electoralist (talk) 03:38, 9 August 2016 (UTC) And you were complaining about personal attacks before? What do you call this?ChronoFrog (talk) 11:30, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

• Endorse close I read through pretty much all of the RFC (except for the last third that degenerated into little more than a shouting match) and on the whole find Deryck's close reasonable. Also, please do not try to engage me on the specifics of the debate as that is not the point of this closure review. Blackmane (talk) 02:53, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
• Endorse close. Deryck Chan's reasoning makes sense to me.

Regarding the original RFC: Like Tryptofish, I had no previous involvement with the template and joined the discussion after seeing the RFC notice. As I said there, I agree with the reasons Electoralist stated for having a standalone category. Having read through this conversation (and much of Deryck Chan's talk page) hasn't changed my mind. BlackcurrantTea (talk) 11:17, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

User:BlackcurrantTea You won't explain why you disagree with the sources or policy based arguments which the "Asian" side has provided an abundance of, and you are unwilling to discuss it. How exactly does this help us reach an agreement?ChronoFrog (talk) 11:30, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

• {{Do not archive until}} added. Please remove the {{Do not archive until}} tag after the review is closed. (I am adding this because RfC closure reviews frequently have been archived prematurely without being resolved.) Cunard (talk) 05:55, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

• Seems like it might be time to ban anyone who participated in the RFC (on either side) and who has already commented here from further comment in this close review; they're sucking all the oxygen out of the room. If you haven't been able to make your point (repeatedly) by now, you're probably doing more harm than good by continuing to try. --Floquenbeam (talk) 11:39, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Use your mop and hat all the discussion that isnt a direct support/oppose? Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:53, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
    • I was tempted to hat the wall of text directly above my Endorse but as I had !voted it wouldn't have been appropriate. ChronoFrog's fervour and zeal has long gone over the edge into badgering. Blackmane (talk) 12:37, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
      • I have no idea why you are singling me out. Either way, if Wikipedia guidelines had been taken into account during the course of the RfC and in its closure (instead of relying on a majority of mostly hit-and-run "votes"), nobody would be raising a fuss about this. At this point, I honestly do think there is an issue of WP:Systemic bias on here.ChronoFrog (talk) 16:11, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
      • I haven't !voted, so I've hatted the rehashing of the debate. I think I got it all, but if someone with a mop wants to edit/add/remove it, knock yourself out. If you aren't an admin, or if you participated in the original RFC, do not modify it. I think I can safely speak for fellow admins when I say that would be considered disruptive at least and tendentious at worst. We need to review the RFC close here, not restart the RFC. Katie^talk 12:50, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
        • @ChronoFrog:The point of this thread was raised by Deryck Chan to review the closure of the RFC. It is not to rehash the RFC here. WP:AN is not and never will be the location to decide content issues. You have responded to virtually all of the commenters here as if another RFC was being run. If it's a few comments here and there, then that's no problem but badgering every single !voter is disruptive.

Let me repeat we are not here to go over the RFC material again. Deryck closed the RFC, you among a number of other editors raised concerns about his closure on his talk page and after an extended discussion he brought his closure here for review. Many of the commenters, myself included, will have read the RFC and we came to our own conclusions. If consensus here is that Deryck's close was appropriate then that is that. However, you are more than welcome to attempt a new RFC at some point in the future because consensus certainly can change but be warned that repeatedly opening RFC's within a short space of time to try and get your POV across is disruptive and can lead to sanctions. Blackmane (talk) 23:58, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

• Endorse Close. Standalone seems to be the closest thing to consensus (with a non-insignificant minority suggesting that slurs be disassociated from geographical region altogether for everyone, not just Jews). Alternatively no consensus could be supported, but to me despite the massive walls of text from a couple of vocal advocates, Standalone is the best close option. As with others, I'm not interested in entering the debate on the issue, because this isn't the place to reopen it - my opinion is regarding the close only. PGWG (talk) 12:59, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Extended content

*Comment I just wanted to clarify for those who are against the close. This template is not about the origins of Jews, or Africans or whatever, it is how to classify ethnic slurs against people. When I hurl a slur at an African American, I am doing so based on his African heritage, unless the slur is about him being a Yankee, then it's a slur based on his being American. Same as with an Asian or Arab, but for a Jew, you are insulting him based on his religion or ethnicity. Most Jews don't have Asian heritage or ancestry. You are not insulting them based on that, you are insulting them merely for being Jewish so it does seem clear that the category should be stand-alone. Sir Joseph (talk) 14:05, 9 August 2016 (UTC) "Most Jews don't have Asian heritage or ancestry". This statement is incorrect. http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html, http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v466/n7303/full/nature09103.html, http://www.natureasia.com/en/research/highlight/9440, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3032072/ I'll stop there. It's no wonder the consensus is so out of step with policy when most of the editors involved won't even read the WP:RS provided. I'm beginning to think that WP:BIAS is what's causing it.ChronoFrog (talk) 15:57, 9 August 2016 (UTC) This is not the place to rehash your arguments. I'll just end by saying that even if Jews came from Asia a thousand years ago, that is not their heritage, or culture, in 2016. An American Jew is American who is Jewish, so the slurs are either geography based or Jewish based, it has nothing to do with Asia. If you want to talk about ancient history then there are articles for that. But a template on classification of slurs is not the place. This is just to discuss the close of the RFC not to rehash the same arguments over again. Sir Joseph (talk) 16:36, 9 August 2016 (UTC) Jewish heritage *is* Asian heritage (or Middle Eastern heritage, if you will). Our identity now is the same as it was before we left Israel: Jewish/Israelite/Hebrew. Picking up cultural influences/genes in diaspora doesn't cancel out our national heritage. No other displaced indigenous people would ever accept such an argument, so why should we? And the reason I am "rehashing my arguments" is because nobody answered them, in the RfC, on Deryck's page, or on here.ChronoFrog (talk) 18:28, 9 August 2016 (UTC) Sir Joseph, your statements regarding what defines a Jew are false, ignorant, and offensive. Please refrain from making narrow-minded arguments to define Jewish identity. But I will ask you, What defines an "American?" What defines a "Jew?" Again, when others and I have said "West Asian," we mean, Afro-Asiatic, Semitic, North African, etc.—the essential origins of Jewish identity and the ethnic slurs related to Jews from time immemorial. Please refer to my arguments above in this discussion, and not just this comment. Todah Rabah, Jeffgr9 (talk) 18:19, 9 August 2016 (UTC) To all, No one here who "endorses" the closure of the RfC has addressed my arguments, nor truly investigated the arguments of others who "oppose" the closure of the RfC, and that is a form of systematic ignorance and rejectionism. I understand the sociopolitical narratives and undercurrents that we have learned since childhood, and I know, and have cited, how breaking down Jewish identity as "nothing more than a religion" is false and due to trauma that has infiltrated our Jewish communities, our views of history, and dealing with current events. Please thoughtfully address all editors' concerns, or else you risk creating false histories for readers who come across these articles/templates (e.g. the omission of West Asians/North Africans/"Middle Easterners" causes the template to fail on an ethnographic scale for ethnic slurs, and literally rejects the existence of the roots of Anti-Semitism). Todah Rabah, Jeffgr9 (talk) 18:19, 9 August 2016 (UTC) Because this isn't the place to re-fight the RFC, it is to assess the consensus that the closer determined. The continued walls of text are starting to smell more like forum shopping than anything else. PGWG (talk) 23:37, 9 August 2016 (UTC) Also, the slur "Christ killer" directly alludes to our Mid-East heritage, since it is an accusation that the Jews killed Christ (how could we have done any such thing if we were never there in the first place?).ChronoFrog (talk) 18:37, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

• Endorse the closure - We should not be discussing the issue of how to categorize ethnic slurs against Jews. The only issue is whether the closure of the RFC was reasonable, whether the closure could reasonably be justified from the statements by the participants. To the extent that anyone is trying to re-argue the issue, that is forum shopping. I closed the attempt to discuss either the closure or the original issue at WP:DRN because DRN is not a forum to review an RFC closure; in dispute resolution, an RFC "trumps" any other content forum. DRN sometimes resolves a dispute by opening an RFC. An RFC is not followed by DRN. The issue should not be discussed further. It was already discussed adequately in the RFC (and DRN would have a smaller audience than RFC anyway). The only issue is whether the closer used reasonable judgment. The closer did use reasonable judgment in finding that there was rough consensus (a small majority) that ethnic slurs against Jews should be categorized in a stand-alone category. The only question is whether the closer used reasonable judgment, and the closer used reasonable judgment. Any other effort to discuss is just a waste of time. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:18, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
• Endorse closure, as being a reasonable interpretation of the discussion. Obviously the whole Judaism topic area is more likely to generate strong emotions one way or another than most topic areas, and I think Deryck did a good job of digging through that stridency to work out what was going on. A lot of the arguments being made here that look for the discussion to be overturned are just rehashes of the same arguments that failed to gain consensus in the RFC itself. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 04:35, 10 August 2016 (UTC).

Category:Wikipedia files requiring renaming

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this, but for a pretty long time I have been waiting for someone to rename the files at Category:Wikipedia files requiring renaming. It's now stacked with files and needs to be cleaned up. Could someone (or a file mover) please move the files? Thanks. -- The Pancakeof Heaven! 14:10, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:File mover perhaps - there are almost 400 non-admin "file movers". — xaosflux ^Talk 14:21, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Review of LavaBaron's DYK restrictions

Hello AN crowd. You're invited to participate in the discussion at WT:DYK which concerns a proposed amendment to the restrictions on User:LavaBaron's participation at DYK. The discussion is cross-advertised here because the relevant restrictions were originally enacted as a result of this AN thread. Deryck C. 17:06, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Note that apart from an amendment, there is now also a proposal for a full lifting of the restrictions being discussed. Having the opinion of some people besides the DYK regulars would be helpful. Fram (talk) 11:38, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

• Why not move (or transclude) the discussion over to here? Rgrds. --64.85.216.14 (talk) 14:35, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Template move discussions

FYI, Template talk:Cfd#Requested move 8 August 2016 and Template talk:Tfm#Requested move 9 August 2016. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:35, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Bitafarhadi

hi all EnWiki sysop , Bitafarhadi is back (1) , in checkuser is confirmed he is used sockpuppetry for trolling with have new sockpuppets (SuksGu , Glayol , PersianGuyz , AmirMuhammad1) --Florence (talk) 14:57, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Is this something a local check user would have to look at too? I'm also surprised the accounts weren't globally locked since the sock master's account is a globally locked account. --Cameron₁₁₅₉₈ ^(Talk) 21:09, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

 Note: SuksGu is not a registered account. --Cameron₁₁₅₉₈ ^(Talk) 21:11, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

User:PersianGuyz does say at the bottom that they are an alternate account of User:AmirMuhammad1, they are apparently an earlier account and were disclosed as such by Amir. AmirMuhammad1 was renamed yesterday by the frwiki bureaucrat and global renamer Céréales Killer to User:TheStrayDog. None of these accounts are locally blocked. I cannot speak Farsi; is it somewhere said that these accounts are linked to the Bitafarhadi sockfarm? Ruslik0? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 21:29, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

I am not familiar with Bitafarhadi and all old accounts are stale by now - it is impossible to check them. Ruslik_Zero 18:10, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Vandalism on The Red Tour

IP vandalized the boxscore of the tour. I don't know how to edit the information quickly because IP changed information consecutively so the page's history like this https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=The_Red_Tour&action=history. Can someone help the article??? Sorry because I don't know how "undo" work so I tried to do 2 times and now I am so worry about 3RR Phamthuathienvan (talk) 15:11, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

• Fixed. Katie^talk 16:22, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Admin Eyes Needed on American Politcs

I feel there is too much battleground and tendentious behavior on articles under Discretionary Sanctions relating to American Politics, e.g. Talk:Donald_Trump_presidential_campaign,_2016. I am surprised that we do not have Admins monitoring those pages. I encourage one and all to keep an eye on them and exercise the authority delegated to you by Arbcom if appropriate. SPECIFICO talk 17:20, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

FYI, there's two admins in just the most recent thread. TimothyJosephWood 17:33, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Never enough admins, I say.Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:07, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Admin eyes are always welcome and helpful on contentious pages, and American Politics is a particularly contentious area these days. SPECIFICO may not have realized that there are two admins who participate regularly at the Donald Trump articles (I am one). Personally I consider myself involved so I limit my admin actions to deleting and blocking trolls, and issuing warnings. I know of at least two other admins who do not contribute but monitor the page SPECIFICO mentions. I think SPECIFICO is referring to a recent sarcastic comment on the talk page, but IMO it did not rise to the level of needing an official warning or admin action. I should also note that at least four editors have been placed on topic bans from some of those articles, and their absence has contributed to a fairly collegial atmosphere considering the highly charged subject matter. --MelanieN (talk) 18:13, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm the other admin, but like MelanieN I consider myself involved re: Trump-related pages and limit admin actions accordingly. I do encourage more admin patrolling in this area. Neutrality^talk 20:02, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

I've already received a taste of what it's like to edit these articles and it isn't good. Content creators cannot edit in good faith in these areas without encountering a host of tendentious and poisonous behaviour by people who are not interested in contributing, only wanting to push their point of view and create drama. I've come across people making false claims, doing drive-by citation-needed tagging on already sourced content, deleting sourced content with spurious and false reasoning, and using their own personal opinions as justification for how articles should be instead of policies and guidelines. People are able to do this freely without any ramifications and it just makes real editors annoyed and not want to edit, because they're spending all their time dealing with troublemakers. The end result is that these articles are absolutely dreadful, because all the good writers have been pushed away and only the troublemakers are left. TradingJihadist (talk) 20:03, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Arbitration Committee motion amending the GoodDay arbitration case

By motion of the Arbitration Committee:

The Committee resolves that remedy 1.1 (GoodDay topic-banned from diacritics) in the GoodDay arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t) is suspended for the period of one year from the date of passage of this motion. During the period of suspension, any uninvolved administrator may, as an arbitration enforcement action, reinstate the topic ban on GoodDay should GoodDay fail to follow Wikipedia behavior and editing standards while editing concerning diacritics, broadly construed, or participating in any discussions about the same.

In addition, the topic ban will be reinstated should GoodDay be validly blocked by any uninvolved administrator for misconduct related to diacritics, broadly construed. Such a reinstatement may only be appealed to the Arbitration Committee. After one year from the date of passage of this motion, if the ban has not been reinstated, or any reinstatements have been successfully appealed, the topic ban will be vacated.

For the Arbitration Committee, Miniapolis 17:28, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Archived discussion at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GoodDay#Amendment request: GoodDay (August 2016)

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Arbitration Committee motion amending the GoodDay arbitration case