User talk:Jimbo Wales

Just a thought and to open a discussion

Would it be appropriate for Wikipedia to run geotargeted (to the US) neutral "get out the vote" banners at the time of the US election? Just to focus on whether or not it would be appropriate for us as a community, note that it would be perfectly legal for us as a 501(c)(3) charity as long as it is not suggesting to people which candidate to vote for.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:57, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Stay out of anything that has to do with politics. It could be the thin end of the wedge. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.--Aspro (talk) 14:08, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

I don't see how. We successfully campaign against SOPA/PIPA - and that involved taking sides. This would not be political in that same way.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:15, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

I don't think this is a particularly good idea. It probably violates WP:NPOV; reality has a well-known liberal bias. Jc86035 (talk) Use {{re|Jc86035}}
to reply to me 14:12, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

I don't see how it could violate NPOV. It is true that regular Wikipedia readers are less likely to be supporters of Donald Trump. But telling everyone, neutrally, that they should vote - on the premise that we think that people who read the encyclopedia are generally more informed and should therefore help make the decision - is neutral.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:20, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, forgot the sarcasm tags. :P Jc86035 (talk) Use {{re|Jc86035}}
to reply to me 14:22, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Heh. --Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:26, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

• Support - Encouraging people to vote is a generally acceptable civic gesture, only economists (of certain stripes) would fault you for it.

Still, it would be an effort taken on faith that it is effective, unless someone intends to interview a suitable sample of voters and non-voters.

So the community question is whether the intention signaled by a "get out the vote" banner would reflect negatively on Wikipedia as an institution. I venture to estimate that that risk is vanishingly small.  —jmcgnh^{(talk) (contribs)} 14:40, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

I do not support this proposal. I recognize that we were involved in SOPA/PIPA and that was political, but I'd prefer to have a soft rule "stay out of politics as much as possible". Absolute rules such as no tolerance owns almost always lead to idiotic situations so I try to avoid supporting absolute rules as much as possible. If our soft rule is to stay out as much as possible then when we do identify a situation such as SOPA/PIPA which is so central to the continued existence of this project that it deserved an exception to the soft rule. While I'm sure people will argue that the upcoming US presidential vote is important and it is, I don't see it as central to the mission of Wikimedia so I'd prefer that we remain as separated from politics as possible.--S Philbrick(Talk) 14:29, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

I think that's a respectable position. I hope others disagree, but I respect what you are saying. There is for sure a valid question here.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:33, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

If WP (and in particular the English language part) aims to be truly international then this could set an unfortunate precedent. There are some countries in the world where voting/not voting is very much a political act. If there is only one candidate (or possibly only one for whom votes will be counted), then not voting is the only opposition. There have been elections in which violence has been meted out at polling stations - would WP encourage people there to vote? In countries with a functioning democracy "get out and vote" is a positive message, I just don't think it is a message WP needs or should promulgate. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 14:41, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

I agree with JW that it may not violate any of our tenants – just think we should stay away from the whole idea. Anyway, I have now said my piece and won't comment further. Because for sure - why should this idea not it be discussed in order to archive a happy consensus. --Aspro (talk) 14:31, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

If someone violates their tenants, that means something very different than violating their tenets. Sorry for being pedantic, this just made me laugh. Gnome de plume (talk) 15:31, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

"Get out the vote" drives are very often biased in some way, even when they are not suggesting to people which candidate to vote for. Democrats try to get out the vote among a demographic that will favor their candidates (inner cities, college campuses, etc.), Republicans try to get out the vote among a demographic that will favor their candidates. If Wikipedia, whose readership is "less likely to be supporters of Donald Trump" as you say, tries to get out the vote, it will be for all practical purposes, campaigning for Hillary Clinton. Deli nk (talk) 14:37, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Why the heck would we stay clear of politics, when we are so terribly complicit and complacent with political agenda pushing of the most controversial and important societal topics? I say that's a great idea Jimbo!Charlotte135 (talk) 14:45, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

I think that it is not the best of ideas, because it is making an exception for the USA. For example, Wikipedia did not urge people to get out and vote in the United Kingdom European Union membership referendum, 2016 or the Colombian peace agreement referendum, 2016 although they were both very important.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 15:38, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

What Ianmacm said; if we do this for the US, why not the UK, Canada, Nigeria, India, Ireland, Australia or any other significant English-speaking country? I also fail to see the point; if there genuinely is anyone in the US who isn't already aware there's an election happening, they're hardly someone who I trust to make informed decisions about anything. ‑ Iridescent 15:45, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Just for information, Australia has Compulsory voting with a fine of $170 for not doing so. I'm not sure a logo/icon on Wikipedia would be any more of a motivating factor. DrChrissy ^(talk) 19:26, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Astonishingly enough, I'm aware of that; for someone who complains about civility as often as you do, you do have quite the tendency to talk down to everyone you encounter. As I'm also aware, Australians would nonetheless be rightly aggrieved if Wikipedia were to explicitly claim that US elections are more important than their own. ‑ Iridescent 19:31, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

WoW! Where did AGF suddenly go? My comment was to the general readership and not intended to be talking down to anyone. And I agree with the point you are making. DrChrissy ^(talk) 19:42, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

I'm going to push back on the claim that we are so terribly complicit and complacent with political agenda pushing of the most controversial and important societal topics but my view may depend on semantics. An odd complication of the Wikipedia concept "anyone can edit", allowing almost anyone to edit and call themselves an editor, and the lack of paid editorial staff, means that the term "we" is problematic. If editor X is a paid political shill, pushes some partisan talking point, and other editors respond by removing the excesses and improving the wording of the subject matter, would it be accurate to say that we Wikipedia are complicit because we allow anyone to edit? I would say no. While we don't have a formal distinction (with the possible exception of labeling some editors as SPA or editors with a COI) I think most people understand that a statement about what we (Wikipedia) permit or support, we are talking about the responsible editors not those who are pushing the agenda.

To use a similar but maybe clearer example, How would you respond if someone asked if Wikipedia permits copyright violations? Technically, one might say yes, because I can point you to 100 instances of copyright violations probably in the last 24 hours. (Copypatrol if you really want the examples). Yet every single one of those copyright issues will be removed if it turns out to be a copyright violation and most in fairly short order, so I think it is fair to say that Wikipedia does not support copyright violations. Similarly, I don't think it's fair to say that Wikipedia is both complicit and complacent with political agenda pushing — I think it's fair it to say that such agenda pushing occurs continuously while responsible editors work to remove it is much as possible. I think on balance we do a decent job although we are far short of perfect.--S Philbrick(Talk) 17:25, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

• Unless we're also prepared to do this for elections other countries see as significant (or even restricted to other countries with significant proportions of English speakers), I can't see this. If we do decide to do this, we'd then have a hard time telling people "Well, the US is important enough to do this for, but sorry, your country is not." I think that would get spammy in a hurry (which would pretty much blow the effectiveness of the campaign anyway), so I can't support it, well-intentioned though the idea is. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 16:08, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Agree. It's ok if we take a stance when interests fundamental to the Wikipedia community are at stake, but for general political elections it would be overkill. Unless we take Trump serious enough to be a threat to life and liberty everywhere... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:13, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

• What if we can make it appear only for readers in the US? Do we have that technology? It would remove one (valid) counterargument. Wikipedia is about the democratization of knowledge, so we could also be for the democratization of...well, democracy. But voter registration deadlines in a dozen or more US states are today, and registration is usually as big a thing as actually voting, as the US viewers know (and as frequently needs to be explained to folks of countries who just receive a card in the mail, no "registration" required). Drmies (talk) 16:58, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
• Hell yes. Everyone who has a vote, should use it. Even if they support Trump. The worst enemy of demoracy is not tyranny but apathy. Guy (Help!) 17:09, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Ben Shahn, Register to Vote, Congress of Industrial Organizations (CIO) poster, 1946

I had asked on this page if anybody objected to me putting the Ben Shahn poster on Jimbo's user page, and got no objections as far as I remember. This was in July I think. I then put it on Jimbo's user page and it was quickly reverted. No use getting upset about it so I left it that way. I've just put it back, and I do see Jimmy's comments above as being his personal support for having it there, since he seems to want to go further beyond that. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

At this point though, I don't see a real need to go beyond that, other than to say to those folks who agree that registration is important "feel free to add this to your own user page." The registration deadlines, and the current early voting are one part of my neutrality on Jimmy's proposal. I'll be very direct here on the rest. I suspect the Jimmy is outraged by recent political developments as many folks are. But I wouldn't worry about the outcome now. One candidate seems to be totally falling apart. In fact his whole party seems to be totally falling apart. Going beyond posting the Shahn poster might just be a meaningless gesture at this point. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 17:16, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

I do not support the encyclopedia's taking a position one way or the other on whether or not our readers ought to vote in political contests. Many people, including Wikipedians, find voting objectionable as immoral, a waste of time, or even an irrational exercise (see e.g., Bryan Caplan's The Myth of the Rational Voter). Having the encyclopedia take an editorial position in favor of general participation in a particular government's operation is an implicit endorsement of that government and/or a particular form of government. I say this as a Wikipedian and as someone who will appear on the ballot as a candidate for elective office in my legislative district next month. DickClarkMises (talk) 18:02, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

MeatBall:VotingIsEvil. --ESP (talk) 18:41, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

• Support in a broader context. Creating only a one-time US-specific "get out the vote" banner might seem questionable. A routine feature of the Main Page to have a small banner for each ongoing election should not. (some people rightly object to the Olympics, but we still run an ITN item about it) I should emphasize that this would be a part of the Main Page content, possibly WP:ITN, not a Foundation-placed banner, because among other things we would need a crowdsourced procedure to fairly catch every election in the world. (There might be a procedure for disqualifying/not listing show elections that are internationally disbelieved, or not, people's choice) But I like the idea of having something iconic and graphical rather than just a plain ITN item because by keeping it small you could run it longer, and with absentee voting already available in the U.S. you might want to run it longer, though then again, maybe not this long. There's also a question of whether close of voter registration should get a similar banner and how long. Something can be done, it can be neutral, it can fit in with ITN, but ... people have to agree on it. That's the sticky part. Wnt (talk) 18:46, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose. For two main reasons. First, this reflect the centrality the USA and USA related topics still mantain into the Wikipedia community, and this is something very bad and should be fought, not encouraged, as it reflects into the contents of the enciclopaedia. Wikipedia occasionally took political positions, but just when them directly involved Wikipedia itself and its right to keep existing. There are about 200 nations in the world that run very important elections about every week, why Wikipedia should not run geotargeted neutral banner for each of them, and should do for the USA presidential elections?

Second, exhort to vote is taking a side, it is a biased stand. All the countries that provide to their citizens the right to vote, also provide them the right to not vote, with no exceptions. This choice could be seen as questionable by many, but is perfectly legal, fair and moral in a democracy, and it has concequences that the citizens has the right to seek. I don't see any reason why Wikipedia should take part against the right of the people (but just the ones from USA) to not "get out the vote"; and I don't see any reason why Wikipedia should inform or remember the people (but just the ones from USA) that some elections are about to happen.

In the end, let's say that this banner would be something good for the USA as a country. Why Wikipedia should care about it? The banner would be also good for Wikipedia as an enciclopaedia? Why? And why Wikipedia in English language does not care about the elections that involve the English people? I'm sorry for being rough but this proposal (and the page where it's discussing) it seem totally absurd to me. --Phyrexian ɸ 21:47, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Fact check: See Compulsory voting --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:58, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Off topic. Thank you, you're right, I was not aware about most of this. However the USA are not among those countries, and most of them allow the citizens to not vote in some way. It's indicative that the very few countries that enforce the compulsory vote are either nations smaller than many US cities or ruled by fascist dictatorships. I suggest Wikipedia should not put banners for the North Korea "elections". --Phyrexian ɸ 19:45, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. Phyrexian said it perfectly above. It's US-centric, and avoiding this by doing so for every national election would be a mess. What about referendums? Local/municipal elections? And yes, asking people to vote is certainly not neutral, even if no side is explicitly mentioned. Greenman (talk) 21:55, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

• support my involvement in WP is due to my wanting people to have good information about things that matter; a sense of civic responsibility. Voting matters, and it is a nonpartisan good thing to remind people in the US to fulfill their obligations to vote, and vote informed. Jytdog (talk) 00:24, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
• Support, because I find unpersuasive arguments along the lines "but we'd have to do it for every Anglophone country!" I am not aware of any infrastructure issues restricting Wikipedia from doing so. Mihirpmehta (talk • contribs) 00:40, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

• It appears very early on that consensus is split and vocally so. To my mind the SOPA/PIPA was focused on legalisation that would affect WP directly and so our involvement was justified back then. Whilst I personally don't like the JW's new proposal, I recognize that the way that WP has grown has been by debating difficult issues. Can an editor whom has studied philosophy, put together a truth table or some such, which lists all the pro's & con's. English WP is read around the world, so such a banner that only appears on US servers will (to my mind) separates and divides WP - and then what next? I am terribly unhappy about this but agree that it should be discussed. --Aspro (talk) 01:14, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

• Some mood music. [1] --Bob K31416 (talk) 01:31, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

snark worthy of greg kohs. hm. Jytdog (talk) 01:51, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

It's kind of a shame that this proposal arises on the day which, for something like 12 of the states, is the last day on which people can register to vote.  —jmcgnh^{(talk) (contribs)} 02:21, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. Wikipedia is not a good venue for reminding people to vote, brush their teeth, look both ways before crossing the street, maintain a diversified portfolio, get enough sleep, be kind to small animals, or whatever anodyne good things one cares to list. Nor do we need the burden of adjudicating what is a nonpartisan "good thing" and what is partisan. We are not obliged to provide useful information about important things to people in every form (e.g., we are neither a how-to guide nor a calendar). Choess (talk) 05:28, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

But wait, people now need to "Look all-4-ways before crossing the street" because milennials think you have no right being in the street unless they "friended" you before you got there, or you txted them before crossing (and yes, I was recently nearly flattened by a guy, speeding around the 3rd corner, who claimed I had no right to be in the street, but braked long enough there to "live tweet" how wrong I was as a pedestrian to be walking in the path of a speeding car, as if I didn't know how to use the new "street app" now). Consequently, I sawed 50 limbs off a large bush at an abandoned street corner, so drivers could look all 4 ways. -Wikid77 (talk) 02:50, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

• Hell no! for many reasons as already stated by others, the main one IMHO is: If we do it for one country we have to do it for all and in many countries the act of voting (or not) is in itself a partisan position. Some suggestions to limit it to "major English speaking countries" doesn't fly either because en.WP is not an encyclopedia about the English-speaking world, it's the English version of an encyclopedia about the entire world, this website is not (yet) the Yankopedia! Short version: it's a WP:NPOV violation. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 08:09, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
• Just an aside. Editors here might be interested in the Wikipedia article Voter_registration_in_the_United_States. --Bob K31416 (talk) 09:13, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
• I of course support any drive that encourages Trump supporters to get out and vote. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:16, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

This article might be of interest. --Bob K31416 (talk) 09:29, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

I found the wiktionary entry far more informative this time. Wnt (talk) 12:44, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

• Limited Support - As a neutral provider of information, Wikipedia should not advocate any behaviors not directly related to its purpose. (SOPA and PIPA were different - those directly affected the Internet in a way that would be ultimately detrimental to Wikipedia's mission and coincidentally the whole Internet.) Here, neutrality is also that it is perfect acceptable to advocate that people don't vote when in this cycle we're spoon-fed an exceptionally stupid two party choice between the moron and the crook. (Bonus: Switch which candidate gets each label every other day and you'll find reasons that both labels apply to both U.S. Presidential candidates! Fun!) So why limited support? Here. Help me out with editing and polishing it! LaughingVulcan ^{Grok Page!} 12:43, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

• Comment: Whilst LaughingVulcan (above) may have said in jest that : “ we're spoon-fed an exceptionally stupid two party choice between the moron and the crook” the point is that political systems often evolve and improve/degrade over time. WP is very influential now and to adopt such a policy may well add to the current, growing political stagnation. A good historical example is that China once developed a very sophisticated civil service. The exams for students to enter were very tough. The result was though, that China became moribund, and lost its ability to innovate. They had achieved so much, like fine bone-china, gun powder, rockets, fine silk cloth, fine and exquisite ivory carvings, etc. They lost all that technological superiority in just a few generations. In my first post above, I commented that The road to hell is paved with good intentions. We should (I strongly think) go out of our way to avoid advising people as to what they should do. Let them make up their own minds -in this age of greater awareness- where many-eyes make all problems shallow. --Aspro (talk) 13:47, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

I am not sure I share your attribution of China's technological stagnation to the development of a civil service. Mao certainly had something to do with it. Guy (Help!) 14:50, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

• "A substantive body of evidence indicates that the environment in which we make decisions can fundamentally alter them. For example, what we think others are doing, how voting makes us feel about ourselves, and what we need to do to vote all affect whether or not we participate on Election Day. So instead of simply telling Americans to vote, the science suggests we need to think about the context in which citizens decide to cast their ballots."[2]

Seems like useful info so I mentioned it, although I'm not sure how it would apply here. The rest of the article is interesting too.

BTW, there's also a Wikipedia article Get out the vote. And also in the amazing Wikipedia there is an article Vote early and vote often. --Bob K31416 (talk) 17:11, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

• No. Doing so would be likely to benefit one party or more over others, would be seen as a partisan act, and would hurt the encyclopedia's reputation. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 17:48, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose In fact I have opposed such "banners" and "Wikipedia is closed today" type stuff on the past and still do so. As I understand it, Wikipedia is a reference work and not an advertising medium. Collect (talk) 18:30, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

• Comment: Would like JW to comment soon. I suspect that he threw this proposal in to see how robust the WP community has become. He created this child, which has now developed a wisdom of the crowd type of mentality, ( based largely on JW's (and his friends) credo or remit to provided easy access to knowledge for the benefit of all and can do so freely via volunteer editors). There is no way I am going to be patronising when pointing out to JW, that many editors are much older than he ( and with tongue in cheek – more worldly wise), as we value the fact, that as young man, whom became financially successful in life, at an early age, both founded and established a tool to aid this world becoming a better place – rather than splash out on buying an executive jet. No doubt, he now wants to do more, by getting politically involved, in the hope of sorting out the many injustices that exist. I humbly submit though, that WP is not the vehicle for this and that JW will gain more support by be appearing truly non partisan by not involving WP as a power leverage tool. Power tends to corrupt but willing cooperation by the informed masses (hoi polloi) always wins out in the long run. Others above, have mentioned that the wording of banners can be influenced by SPA's. At the moment, we can just about cope and keep on-top of them... but active WP accounts fluctuate and in the future we may not be able to. There are just, far too many unknowns, for this type of banner... Would like JW to comment though, because he didn't like the idea that we should donate our unwanted pen-drives so that they could be dropped on North Korea – loaded with WP pages, but wanted to leave it up to the experts instead. Are those experts educational physiologist or politically motivated with a different agenda to our remit?--Aspro (talk) 13:06, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

• One the things I really like very much about WP is that it has no borders and nothing inside it has a "national" perspective. Many of the single Projects have, instead, something very similar to WP:WORLDVIEW. Even if behind this there isn't necessarily a reflection about the progressive loss of meaning of the concept of a national state itself (see European states devolving themselves into EU, or trying to), still I believe that this is because we wouldn't ever accept that knowledge should be submitted to national differentiation: "E=mc²" is the same in any country, so it makes no difference to WP what happens to states, we have to correctly write about relativity whatever our nationality or citizenship. The consideration of a national state (or a federation, as well) as a "necessary" context is deeply questionable in this sense, everything here works fine without any due reverence to any single state in particular. So it simply isn't our business to demand our users and our readers a certain behaviour (while the opposite behaviour, abstention, is an esplicitely recognized right in some Countries). I can see no difference in asking for this only to a georeferenced audience: even when locally, it would always be Wikipedia asking for it, and Wikipedia is one. Moreover, we don't discriminate anarchist users or other users who don't believe [any more] in the concept of the national state or citizenship; WP is their WP too, as long as they are here for editing. That's all we need from users, we need them working in coherence with our few principles and produce free knowledge, whatever they think about states, representativeness, social duties and similar concepts. Matter of fact, a similar stand would also be discriminatory.
  So, I would always understand a call for a discussion about - say - what the eventual approval of an act, a given one, would mean to us in the sense of how it would affect our work: it.wiki's black-out of 5 years ago came from there, there was an act under approval that would have put our users and our content at risk, and we did all what we could. In Europe we are very much involved in the debate about Freedom of Panorama, and other copyright issues, and we are urging the Authorities to make a certain choice, sometimes creating it from nothing and breaking the current silence of the law: we are very clearly taking a "political" stand in this case. We are there with our faces, our personal names and with Wikipedia's name, with its grey ball in full evidence. This is politics. But this is about our work, this is spending the name of Wikipedia for something that very directly has to do with what we do here. I just can't see anything wrong with that. Unless one of the candidates has already stated that if elected he/she would fight against Wikipedia, arrest Wikipedians, abolish the public domain (uhm...), forbid the CC licenses, or anything related, we don't have a true interest in who will be elected and how. It might be the best for the Union if any voter casts his vote, but the best for WP is not necessarily the best for the state, for one state (for one Union of states), and vice-versa.
  In the same spirit, what happens in the USA directly affects many other Countries, mine too, so I have a direct interest from abroad in this election: let me tell you that I personally agree that the next POTUS should [at least] be elected with a vaste popular participation. This is what I hope for USA and for most of the Western World. So I think I understand how much you feel it important to act in this direction. But I'm sorry WP cannot be helpful. --g (talk) 09:48, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Would have been nice for Brexit or a revote

There has been much news that the Brexit vote did not include enough people, and hence the calls for a revote. Back when the late, popular Texas Governor Ann Richards ("a woman's place is in the Dome") was running for re-election, few believed she would be defeated, and many people failed to vote as George W. Bush became Governor and went on to stop the 2000 Florida recount to take the U.S. Presidency (because "not enough time to recount" as the U.S. Supreme Court did not know[?] the hanging-chad card ballots had been digitally encoded ("dimpled" or "one corner hanging") into a computer database for rapid statewide re-re-recount within hours). Perhaps some get-out-the-vote reminders would be a good thing. Meanwhile create "List of shocking elections where people failed to vote". -Wikid77 (talk) 15:25, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

If you're proposing a get out the vote reminder because you believe it would have changed the results of a vote, that demonstrates a good reason why we should not have such a reminder. It's not Wikipedia's business deciding that some side in an election should be the one that wins, and reminding people to vote in order to change the result of that election. Ken Arromdee (talk) 19:06, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

It may not have included enough people, but the voter turnout was high, compared to general elections and other UK referendums (all 2). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:25, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

@Ken Arromdee: There is nothing wrong with Wikipedia changing a vote. Wikipedia is supposed to make information available, and that information may have an effect. We simply have faith that if we are neutral and the public at large reads what we make available, that change will represent, overall, an improvement in education, and that the effect (political or otherwise) of having a more educated population will be positive on average. Notifying the people of the world that there are elections going on is simply delivering a fact, a very basic fact but one that potentially has a consequence. I doubt it often will, but in the case of that Florida debacle one has the feeling that one hiccup or stumble could have changed the outcome, so Wikipedia might have also. Wnt (talk) 12:43, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

It is possible to be non-neutral simply by selectively being neutral: Try to figure out what candidate is helped by reminding people to vote, and choosing to remind or not remind depending on whether you think that in that particular neighborhood the reminder helps or hurts your candidate. That's what you did here; you concluded that reminding people on Wikipedia to vote helps your candidate, so you decided that a reminder is good. If you had concluded that reminding people on Wikipedia to vote helped the other candidate, you would have skipped it. That is not being "neutral". That is being partisan in the guise of being neutral. Ken Arromdee (talk) 15:10, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

@Ken Arromdee: You're injecting some honesty here, but not enough honesty. The broader issue, as you point out, is that increased turnout is generally believed to help Democrats, and as it so happens I do oppose Trump. However, the increased turnout doesn't help Democrats by some mysterious, biased, partisan mechanism; it helps them because they are right - because they stand up more for the ordinary person rather than planning inheritance and corporate tax cuts to be offset by a 16% value-added tax that mostly hits ordinary people for necessities of life. Unfortunately, the ordinary people are too busy trying to juggle overwork and child care and the ordinary daily crises of the lower class, and so they don't remember to get out to vote quite as much as they ought, and so yes, if not reminded on the day, they might forget, which has a small statistical impact. Does that mean that it is wrong to mention there's an election? No! No more than it is wrong to have an article on global warming that reveals that it's not actually a liberal conspiracy -- even though that may change their vote. (Though needless to say there will be some who argue that also) Giving people knowledge should not be viewed as a partisan activity; it's what Wikipedia is for. Knowledge of environmental issues, knowledge of social issues, and yes, knowledge there's a vote going on all have their impact, but that impact is justifiable. I suggested giving notifications of elections around the world because I believe that not just in next month's U.S. election, but in every election in every country, reminding more people that the election exists will have an overall beneficial impact, no matter whether they intend to vote for one candidate or another or a third or have a demonstration against the whole thing; it should be their knowledge, then it's their choice. Wnt (talk) 16:01, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

On the situation in the Azerbaijani part of Wikipedia

Jimmy Wales, we are waiting for you to do something while you are waiting for Lowercase sigmabot III to delet what we have written ([3], [4], [5],[6], [7], [8]). Are you really unable to solve such a minor problem despite the fact that you are a creator of Wikipedia? Do you really have no rights? Does Meta have all the authority? I want you to answer one question: are you gonna do anything about the AzWiki issue or are you not? If you are not going to do anything, please state it openly, so that we stop asking you to help. Idin Mammadof (talk), editor of DMOZ 07:55, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

I am unable to act unilaterally here, nor am I convinced that the situation is as you have described it. I can tell you that simply reposting over and over doesn't move things forward. If you want to do something productive, I recommend that you get other editors - even those who disagree with you - to come and talk to me.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:57, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Lowercase sigmabot III does not delete discussions, it archives them based on its settings. (Yes, this is obvious for many Wikipedians. But the distinction may be lost to a newbie stumbling across this discussion for the first time.) Maybe now that Mr. Wales has responded this can be the last time I copy and paste those sentences? LaughingVulcan ^{Grok Page!} 11:51, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Jimmy Wales, there is evidence: [9], [10]. You will still want proof? Aydinsalis (talk) 15:48, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Did you not read *anything* he said above? He cannot act here beyond whatever he may have already done, and your refusal to get this is actually a bit of an issue here on en.wp. Just because he founded Wikipedia does not mean he runs it as his own fiefdom. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 12:25, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

• Jimbo Wales, we wait very much, problem solving and decision making on the Azerbaijani part of Wikipedia. After all, you promised us that you will solve the problem. But you're not going to solve the problem?! Jimmy Wales, Wikipedia foundation have prepared a pocket of suggestions a long time ago. However, Sortilegus have prevented it from passing by stopping administrators’ discussion and Wertuose by stopping the arbitration Committee vote. Even though the user who started this vote asked for explanation, Wertuose didn’t give any till this day. Both of these administrators have gone beyond their authorities by abusing their powers, which is why I suggest them stripped of their administrators’ status. There was enough of vandalism, prejudice and fakery in their activities already (1 (Reliable sources wiped out), 2 (The name of the state, has been removed.), 3 (Reliable sources wiped out), 4 (Picture of the article - az:Bakı xan sarayı), is deleted., 5 (insult; Əxlaqsız ifadələrə görə...) and 6... And Sefer Azeri, who does massive vandalism and blocks perspective users with no reason, should be not just stripped of his status, he should be blocked. There was 4 days left till the end of the Arbitration Committee vote. A majority voted positively. If there’s a need, let us make a vote in 4 days, if there’s no, recognize the legality of that vote. After that we would be able to fix problems in AzWiki ourselves. And I would be able to participate in fixing them, sure, you would have to unblock me for that. When I’m asking why I’ve been blocked, they don’t answer. A representative of Meta asked then about this as well, but didn’t receive an answer.Idin Mammadof (talk), editor of DMOZ 17:01, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

He has responded, and said that he doesn't want this to be reposted over and over. @Aydinsalis: If you keep doing this, you're going to wind up at the Administrator's noticeboard. ThePlatypusofDoom (talk) 17:04, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

He has also responded, and said "I am unable to act unilaterally here, nor am I convinced that the situation is as you have described it", "If you want to do something productive, I recommend that you get other editors - even those who disagree with you - to come and talk to me". @ThePlatypusofDoom: why are you worried? Aydinsalis (talk) 17:43, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

@Aydinsalis: Jimbo didn't say to spam his talk page even more. ThePlatypusofDoom (talk) 17:45, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

@ThePlatypusofDoom: in order to defend our rights, he did not give us another place. This is not abuse. Aydinsalis (talk) 18:11, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

@Aydinsalis: But blatantly ignoring what he said with regards to him not wanting to get involved is. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 22:17, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

@Jéské Couriano:I suffer from the violation of the rules. That's why I write here and write every day. I can not do anything else. Jimmy does nothing. It appears that he has no power. He's a doll, mocking us and our people. Aydinsalis (talk) 09:02, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

I believe in context the word you are looking for is 'figurehead' rather than 'doll'. 'Puppet leader' would probably work too. The reality is Jimbo's influence extends to asking/smacking a few heads at the WMF to look into it. If the WMF have said they wont do anything, there is not much else Jimbo can do. You have a decent level of English, certainly good enough to get by here, perhaps if the climate at AzWiki is so bad you could migrate over to here? I am sure plenty of editors would welcome a native speaker to expand on the areas we lack. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:17, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

I really didn't come here to be mocked. Wikipedia foundation have prepared a pocket of suggestions a long time ago. I would like to investigate this issue. This is the main issue. Aydinsalis (talk) 13:22, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

@Aydinsalis: Sure, just don't spam Jimbo's talk page while you investigate, though. You should probably just take this to meta. (and yes, I know that you've done that before) ThePlatypusofDoom (talk) 16:12, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

@ThePlatypusofDoom: what we expect of everyone working here? How long to wait and what to expect?! Aydinsalis (talk) 18:19, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

@Aydinsalis: Just get off Jimbo's talk page, plain and simple. It might take months on Meta, but complaining here isn't going to help. ThePlatypusofDoom (talk) 23:52, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

@ThePlatypusofDoom: Correspondence lasted for years. The result is this: "Meta-Wiki is not an Arbitration Commitee, Stewards are not arbitrators. We can't do anything here." How long to wait and what to expect?! Aydinsalis (talk) 03:55, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

@Aydinsalis: I don't know, but you've waited for a long time here when we clearly gave you an answer, Jimbo won't help. So try somewhere else. ThePlatypusofDoom (talk) 12:29, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Arbcom case you might be interested in

Hi Jimbo, just in case you've not seen this, there was a recently-closed Arbcom case you might be interested in: [11]

I'm notifying you because every now and then people complain about civility on your talk page, and this was by and large a civility-only arbitration case. Banedon (talk) 05:49, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

You're also notifying him because you like to kick perceived enemies when they're down. Much more uncivil than rude words, but par for the course around here. --Floquenbeam (talk) 11:19, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

You interpret things wrongly then. I was actually thinking of writing a response to Ks0stm's notification on WT:ITN that I'm going to start reading TRM's posts again and reset our relationship the same way Obama was going to reset US-Iran relations. You can see a hint of that when I removed his ITN credit on my talk page [12] by qualifying it with "at least until the end of the Arbcom case", and the Arbcom case is done.

However, if you want to interpret this as kicking perceived enemies while they're down, I'm not going to try to change your mind. Banedon (talk) 11:58, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Thank you. Informative. Just looking at a few links, it's striking how similar other user's response are to some of my response to similar behavior by some. "Will do – but TRM, really, do you always have to get in a dig or insult every time you communicate with me? I didn't start this exchange that way – I sought to be conciliatory." from here is something i have said in so many words a thousand times to a few other editors. And his response begins with "Bollocks..." followed by more digs. Some people seem not to be able to speak in a good way to others. Maybe it's a psychological condition. Maybe it's a disposition. However i It makes the environment toxic. SageRad (talk) 13:08, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

How about speculating about someone's psychological condition behind their back when you've never interacted with them? I presume that is an example of civility? I am very close to removing you from this site, and will do so if you casually smear someone like that again, whether or not you preface it with the word "maybe" and "some people" (that's very Trumpian of you). Rudeness is a problem; passive-aggressive smears hiding behind pretend civility are much more corrosive. --Floquenbeam (talk) 13:59, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

On reconsideration, i struck some text. However, it was an honest wondering. I really do wonder why some people so habitually write in ways that are toxic to healthy dialog when the same thoughts could be more powerfully expressed in a neutral tone that would not distract from the main point. SageRad (talk) 21:53, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

I note that the plaintiff editor had to go through an extraordinary amount of skillful effort to seek relief from the situation, and that the vast majority of editors are not capable of doing that. --Bob K31416 (talk) 14:31, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Oh indeed, it was like landing a 20lb fish on a 5lb line. A very skilful bit of work. Some of us have sympathy for the fish, though. Guy (Help!) 19:02, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

He seems to have turned out OK with optimism for his future on Wikipedia. [13] --Bob K31416 (talk) 19:09, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

He shows more class than most of the badge-collectors. This is unsurprising. Hence many of us feel the fish should have been left in the lake. Guy (Help!) 23:02, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

It is ironic that the only person who comes out of this case looking good is the one who was (seriously) sanctioned. That's Wikipedia for you. Black Kite (talk) 23:25, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

The real irony is that if Arbcom had indeffed George Ho and awarded TRM a barnstar, I would have notified Jimbo anyway for the same reasons as present (in fact what I originally wrote could have been posted unchanged), but some people will still complain about my "refusal to drop the stick" and "attempting to get Jimbo to overrule Arbcom" and whatnot. I doubt I'll say more about the case - it's unlikely to change anyone's minds, and will only make people angrier. Banedon (talk) 00:46, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

He shows more class than most of the badge-collectors. - Your perspective and opinion, Guy. And I note that one can be threatened with indeff for saying something (indirectly) negative about TRM here, but the positive is fair game. Both comments about the editor, not the actions or the content. Slanted much? ―Mandruss ☎ 03:54, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Yep, he sure doesn't come out looking good to me either. SageRad (talk) 08:50, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

I think it's worth noting that when he resigned as a sysop, another editor wrote, "I hope you'll stay around," and he responded, "I will indeed. And I will be a reformed character."[14] --Bob K31416 (talk) 13:23, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Dylan

I'm sure everybody's heard by now that Bob Dylan won the Nobel Prize in Literature. Please forgive me if you don't get the relevance of this to Jimmy's talk page. But with lyrics as challenging and as far reaching as Dylan's, I think we have much to learn from him that applies to at least a couple of the topics above.

I'll just add one song that I remember really hitting me, right in the face. With God on our Side. The verse on WWI, especially seemed to summarize, just in the first 4 lines, everything I'd learned in school about WWI. The conclusion implied now seems to be the general consensus among historians.

Smallbones_(smalltalk) 16:11, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Yes, and i would add "We always did see the same thing, we just saw it from different points of view..." from Tangled Up in Blue. Very relevant to dialog among people with different POV and accepting this while being civil. SageRad (talk) 18:18, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Well, let's just hope that next year the committee sees the light and awards a Nobel Prize in Literature to the editors of Wikipedia. We all still have a hope to share the Nobel Prize after all, or at least, we ought to... :) Wnt (talk) 20:52, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

My favorite Dylan line is: "The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the topic ban" or is it "in the revert"? Anyway it explains why some issues take years to be properly covered in Wikipedia: that wind keeps blowin' facts totally out of articles (and out of talk-pages) until the reverts can be overcome. Wait, that's a different song: "We shall overcome some day"... -Wikid77 (talk) 21:07, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

As for the explanation for World War I, this is perhaps best understood by viewing a recently leaked Pentagon training document here. Though it could use a more straightforward wording, something like: "As the wealthy get wealthier and the poor get poorer, the poor have to be raked into piles like autumn leaves or occupied Palestinians so that the land and resources they were sitting on become available to the wealthy. Eventually they end up living in their own feces, underground catacombs, overcrowded shacks. Eventually someone among them turns to crime or radical ideas, and then the military has a choice: leave the criminals to rule the rest of them, or pursue ever higher levels of civilian casualties and reductions in civil liberty. It is an inevitable law of nature that eventually conflict will lead to the systematic eradication of this poor population in various pointless conflicts until its reduced numbers better match such reduced resources to which they may still be permitted access." Wnt (talk) 21:11, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

nl.wiki

Hi, I've been editing mostly at nl.wiki since 2002 and have now been nominated for a block. First time I think. And it's ok. I don't mind that much, but I think you should know the reason. A Dutch fraternity got into the news rather badly lately, including a criminal investigation about a serious incident during hazing, resulting in brain injury. Some users at nl.wiki -including moderators- have managed to keep any mention of what everybody knows in Holland already, off the fraternity's page. I tried putting on a NPOV tag. It lived a minute or two and was reverted too. I mentioned the word censorship and now I'll probably be blocked. The problem I have here is that Wiki will easily be smeared with the same muck that sticks to the fraternity.

Anyway: thank you for 14 years of fun. I still think you did humanity a great service, but yes I have seen nl.wiki degrade. Jcwf (talk) 04:08, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Content dispute, in which you got blocked for repeatedly accusing editors that don't agree with you of censorship and whitewashing. The rest of what you say is nonsense. Although I do believe the block came much faster than what is usual here on enwiki. I don't edit the Dutch wiki so I'm not well versed in their blocking policy and threshold for what is considered blockable. At any rate, complaining here about is entirely pointless.--Atlan (talk) 09:37, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Just to say the following:

NL:WP has been a very harsh enviroment to be in. New users are often talked down too by some admins. Jcwf has never been in trouble, always valued for his work. But now he chose the wrong subject, and wording. The blok has been disputed, but most of the friends back each other up.

I'm not saying that he was right. But the way he was treated in the first place wasn't deserved either. It was not complete nonsense. Rodejong 17:10, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

The nonsense parts are his outlandish claims, like alluding to some kind of conspiracy to keep negative information about the fraternity off wiki, and saying Wikipedia is now tainted because he didn't get his way. This is a simple content dispute, with an active discussion going on on the talk page about how to approach the subject.--Atlan (talk) 17:27, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

What a nonsense!! "Jcwf has never been in trouble, always valued for his work." (underlining by Robotje) I won't get into details because we should not import problems from other wiki's and I think this whole topic about Jcwf on the nl.wiki beter be closed because en.wiki should not be abused for importing his problems there in the en.wiki. - Robotje (talk) 18:23, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Editing News #3—2016

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Did you know?

Did you know that you can easily re-arrange columns and rows in the visual editor?

Select a cell in the column or row that you want to move. Click the arrow at the start of that row or column to open the dropdown menu (shown). Choose either "Move before" or "Move after" to move the column, or "Move above" or "Move below" to move the row.

You can read and help translate the user guide, which has more information about how to use the visual editor.

Since the last newsletter, the VisualEditor Team has mainly worked on a new wikitext editor. They have also released some small features and the new map editing tool. Their workboard is available in Phabricator. You can find links to the list of work finished each week at mw:VisualEditor/Weekly triage meetings. Their current priorities are fixing bugs, releasing the 2017 wikitext editor as a beta feature, and improving language support.

Recent changes

• You can now set text as small or big.[15]
• Invisible templates have been shown as a puzzle icon. Now, the name of the invisible template is displayed next to the puzzle icon.[16] A similar feature will display the first part of hidden HTML comments.[17]
• Categories are displayed at the bottom of each page. If you click on the categories, the dialog for editing categories will open.[18]
• At many wikis, you can now add maps to pages. Go to the Insert menu and choose the "Maps" item. The Discovery department are adding more features to this area, like geoshapes. You can read more on MediaWiki.org.[19]
• The "Save" button now says "Save page" when you create a page, and "Save changes" when you change an existing page.[20] In the future, the "Save page" button will say "Publish page". This will affect both the visual and wikitext editing systems. More information is available on Meta.
• Image galleries now use a visual mode for editing. You can see thumbnails of the images, add new files, remove unwanted images, rearrange the images by dragging and dropping, and add captions for each image. Use the "Options" tab to set the gallery's display mode, image sizes, and add a title for the gallery.[21]

Future changes

The visual editor will be offered to all editors at the remaining 10 "Phase 6" Wikipedias during the next month. The developers want to know whether typing in your language feels natural in the visual editor. Please post your comments and the language(s) that you tested at the feedback thread on mediawiki.org. This will affect several languages, including Thai, Burmese and Aramaic.

The team is working on a modern wikitext editor. The 2017 wikitext editor will look like the visual editor and be able to use the citoid service and other modern tools. This new editing system may become available as a Beta Feature on desktop devices in October 2016. You can read about this project in a general status update on the Wikimedia mailing list.

Let's work together

Do you teach new editors how to use the visual editor? Did you help set up the Citoid automatic reference feature for your wiki? Have you written or imported TemplateData for your most important citation templates? Would you be willing to help new editors and small communities with the visual editor? Please sign up for the new VisualEditor Community Taskforce.

If you aren't reading this in your preferred language, then please help us with translations! Subscribe to the Translators mailing list or contact us directly, so that we can notify you when the next issue is ready. Thank you! Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:19, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

The Signpost: 14 October 2016

• News and notes: Fundraising, flora and fauna

• Discussion report: Cultivating leadership: Wikimedia Foundation seeks input

• In the media: A news columnist on the frustrations of tweaking his Wikipedia bio

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* Read this Signpost in full * Single-page * Unsubscribe * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 19:28, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia's commitment to accessibility for color blind users

I have recently tried to convert color schemes in several tables to make them accessible for color blind users using the color schemes outlined at Category:Articles_with_images_not_understandable_by_color_blind_users#Tips_for_editors. Unfortunately my edits have met with resistance so I started an RFC at Talk:Motion picture rating system#RfC: Should the comparison table in the article use a color scheme accessible to color-blind users?. Despite promoting the RFC at WP:WPACCESS the RFC has not attracted much of a response (one impartial editor after being open a week). Needless to say I am disappointed at the lack of engagement on this issue and would like to know how to promote further engagement on the issue. I am not here to drag Jimbo Wales into this specific debate, but I would like to know how strong his views are on making Wikipedia accessible to color blind users. Does he see the issue as an incidental consideration when designing articles or central to the primary goals of Wikipedia i.e. would my time be better spent on other areas or is this something I should push the community on? Betty Logan (talk) 10:49, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

You might wish to invite participants in Wikipedia:WikiProject Accessibility and Wikipedia:WikiProject Color.

—Wavelength (talk) 18:51, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Corcoran and the Syllogism

I note with interest that John Corcoran (Professor of Philosophy, University at Buffalo) who is a respected ‘logician, philosopher, mathematician, and historian of logic’ has noted that Wikipedia’s article on the Syllogism has ‘dozens if not scores of errors’. This is on his Academia page, and his Facebook page (private). His first comment on the part which says 'The work of Bolzano has grossly been overlooked, among other reasons due to the intellectual environment in Bohemia at the time, which was then part of the Austrian empire'. He writes

Please read the above sentence aloud. What is wrong with it?

Q1: Is ‘grossly’ the right word here? How can something be grossly overlooked? And is this one of those places where no adverb would do the job needed?

Q2: If the author insists on puffing the sentence ‘The work of Bolzano has been overlooked’ with an adverb, where should it go?

Isn’t there a rule against splitting ‘has been’ with certain kinds of adverb?

Q3: Why is it desirable to have ‘The work of Bolzano’ instead of ‘Bolzano’s work’?

Q4: Isn’t there something wrong in the word order of ‘among other reasons due to the intellectual environment in Bohemia at the time’? Would this be an improvement? ‘due to, among other reasons to the intellectual environment in Bohemia at the time, among other reasons’? Doesn’t the present word order make ‘due to the intellectual environment in Bohemia at the time’ modify ‘reasons’?

Q5: What is the relative clause doing at the end of the sentence? Isn’t ‘which was then part of the Austrian empire’ a non sequitur?

Q6: Shouldn’t ‘has been’ be ‘had been’? Bolzano’s has been discussed intensely for the last 50 years.

I PMd John pointing out that any old nonsense could be added to Wikipedia – in this case by an anonymous IP and that he was at liberty to remove it. I suggested he probably shouldn't bother, given that some other nonsense would be added back later. Wikipedia has had 15 years to get a simple article on the Syllogism right, and no sign so far. Surely he has better things to do.

Was I right? Peter Damian (talk) 13:28, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

No comment on the rest of it, but regarding Q5 ‘which was then part of the Austrian empire’ isn't necessarily a non sequitur; if the government in Vienna was involved in dictating the terms of censorship, or of setting the academic curriculum, then the changing relationship between Bohemia and Austria would have a direct impact on the academic environment. (A modern-day equivalent would be "in Latvia, which was then part of the Soviet Union, the work of historians who did not adhere to the Marxist view of progress was not taught".) ‑ Iridescent 13:46, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Q4 seems to contain a mistake. Would this be an improvement? No. (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 13:52, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Exam questions

Sorry for the purpose of my comment being completely unclear.

1. Is there any point in experts like Corcoran editing Wikipedia, when errors will be reintroduced so quickly?

2. How is it that crowdsourcing, which is meant to be superior to the 'one way' traditional method of sourcing knowledge, has not produced a worthwhile article on this subject in 15 years?

3. How could the system be improved to achieve better results?

Peter Damian (talk) 15:27, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

2. Judging by that sentence at least, the article is certainly worthwhile. The reader has been given an overall picture, whether the prose is perfect or not. The serious researcher is not going to stop at the short and not altogether reliable Wikipedia blurb; he's going to go on to the sources. Wikipedia is sort of like a street in this regard - yeah, maybe some people go there to hang out, but it's not altogether satisfying for the purpose. The real point is that you go somewhere on it. I've often compared Wikipedia directly to search engines - to me its role is basically similar to that of a Google. Like a search for a text string, the article structure and prose simply helps you to find the reference you want.

1. It depends on how you measure entropy. If you're asking whether it helps to proofread an article very carefully and make all the text exactly right, knowing that someone will muck it up again, well, the answer is sort of - after all, some of your improvements will remain a long time. But if you're asking whether it helps to add a new section with sources about an important aspect of the story that other editors don't know about, the answer there is almost certainly yes. They shouldn't take out something like that, at least not unless the "oh this article is just too long and complicated and informative and useful to tolerate" school of deletionists is standing by. If you are trying to extract every last error and impose perfect order, entropy is against you. If you are adding in new kinds of information, then entropy is for you. Wnt (talk) 16:17, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia is still the encyclopedia that anyone can edit. Even John Corcoran (author) can edit if they want to. – wbm1058 (talk) 17:28, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

• Think the original poster is referring to John Corcoran (logician). Doesn't mean the page doesn't need work but, equally, doesn't mean that his (Corcoran's) theory is universally accepted and should rule the page absolute. AnonNep (talk) 17:54, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
  • I was, but I imagine the point is that John Corcoran (author), who read only at a second-grade level until the age of 48, is just as entitled to edit an article on the syllogism as the historian of logic. Peter Damian (talk) 18:20, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Correct. If you dispute that veiw then Wikipedia is the wrong place for you, and you should move to Citizendium. Guy (Help!) 22:17, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for being a great Founder!

	Founder Award
	This is just for being a Founder who created a very great research site! Thank You! Awsomegamer75795 (talk) 02:47, 16 October 2016 (UTC)