Talk:Paul Hermann (composer)

Naming dispute

09:37, 1 February 2018 (diff | hist) . . (+723)‎ . . Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2018 January ‎ (→‎2018 January)

07:43, 24 January 2018 (diff | hist) . . (+1,659)‎ . . User talk:Jusdafax ‎ (request)

09:53, 21 January 2018 (diff | hist) . . (+1,365)‎ . . User talk:Piotrus ‎ (clearing up name issues)

19:21, 18 January 2018 (diff | hist) . . (+1,289)‎ . . User talk:Yobot ‎ (clearing up name issues)

08:52, 16 January 2018 (diff | hist) . . (+1,289)‎ . . User talk:Davidcannon ‎ (disambiguation with Nazi composer)

For background to below. These are notifications made by @Pvangastel: who claims in them to be the grandson of the murdered composer. While sympathetic to the Hungarian name issue, we do have certain rules about COI and sources and titling which need to be at least be acknowledged. @Kleuske: In ictu oculi (talk) 18:40, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Move review request 1 February 2018

Paul Hermann (composer) → Pál Hermann – Pál (or Paul) Hermann (this article) is a Hungarian musician/composer who happens to have the same Anglicized name as a German botanist (Paul Hermann) and a Nazi composer/poet (apparently whose sole notable work is Es ist für uns eine Zeit angekommen), and there is also German speed skater Paul Herrmann to consider in this discussion. Because of the Nazi poet, the use of (composer) as a disambiguator is insufficient; I suggest:

• this article's title should be Pál Hermann per WP:NATURALDAB with Paul Hermann (Hungarian composer) and Paul Hermann (musician) as redirects;
• the Nazi composer should have Paul Hermann (Nazi composer) and Paul Hermann (poet) as redirects to Es ist für uns eine Zeit angekommen;
• Paul Hermann (composer) should be a disambiguation page, or a redirect to a Paul Hermann WP:APO page;
• Paul Hermann (speed skater) should be a {{R from incorrect name}} redirect to Paul Herrmann.

-- Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:18, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

I'm bringing this from a move review request opened today, which I requested to close because there has not actually been a move discussion, however there is an apparent move war in progress between the current title and the proposed title, thus I am opening a discussion although I've not done much research on the subject. I am leaving the page unprotected for now but do not take that as an invitation to continue move-warring. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:18, 1 February 2018 (UTC) courtesy ping active participants: @Kleuske: @Pvangastel: Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:19, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

• Support per researched and detailed nomination. Since there is no indication that Pál Hermann used "Paul Hermann" as his professional name on an international scale, the Western-order Hungarian form of his birth name should be this article's main title header, with Pal Hermann which, as of this writing, is a redlink, created as a redirect, alongside other currently redlinked forms Pal Herman and Pál Herman. A hatnote or a disambiguation page section header "See also" may also specify the alternatively-spelled name Paul Herman. As for the author of "Es ist für uns eine Zeit angekommen", the qualifier may also be "(German composer)", unless there is a specific indication of his membership in the National Socialist Party. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 17:03, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

I'm using machine translation, but it seems German Wikipedia is quite adamant that Hermann's version of the poem was deliberate Nazi propaganda, with sources I can't access. This source describes him as a member of the Berliner Tonkünstlerverein (the Berlin or German musicians' union, roughly), although at that time it had been dissolved and replaced by the Reichsmusikkammer. I would say that Nazi is thus not inappropriate, but neither is German. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:32, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

@Ivanvector: I'm reading in German and as relates to that carol fine, but I have added a source to the carol and frankly the existence or otherwise of the man who edited the carol is barely notable, wheras Paul Hermann, the murdered Jewish composer clearly is notable. The issue now relates to modern sources for the composer, and in particular the difference between lead and title. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:43, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Well that's fine, but there remains an issue that there is a composer named Paul Hermann with content (though not an article) who is not the composer named Paul Hermann whom this article is about. How to resolve the ambiguity? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:46, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

There's barely content, honestly the other Paul Hermann is a nobody, a WP:DABMENTION on Paul Hermann (disambiguation) is already more than he deserves. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:54, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Also I can find no trace that the German who changed the carol lyrics ever composed anything, all recordings on music by Paul Hermann seem to be by the Jewish composer. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:56, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Yeah you're likely right, but I'm concerned by the unusual (though highly unlikely) situation that a user may go looking for information on Paul Hermann the Nazi composer and end up on a page about Paul Hermann the Jewish composer. I suppose that can be mitigated with hatnotes? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:00, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose noble attempt by Ivanvector to sort through this, but @Roman Spinner: the Jewish composer is known today in recordings of his music as Paul https://store.hmv.com/music/cd/paul-hermann-forbidden-music-in-world-war-ii the botanist should be at Paul Hermann (botanist). In ictu oculi (talk) 18:10, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

@In ictu oculi: at the time of his birth in the Hungarian capital, Budapest, it was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, with a sizable Austrian population, in the same manner that there was a Hungarian population in Vienna. "Hermann" is not a Hungarian name, but rather a Germanic one. Thus, with his Jewish heritage as another key consideration, an argument may, indeed, be put forth regarding the uncertainty of his designation as a Hungarian. Various sources are inconsistent — one references him as "Paul", while another uses "Pál". —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 19:03, 1 February 2018 (UTC)