Talk:Paul Hermann (composer)

Naming dispute

09:37, 1 February 2018 (diff | hist) . . (+723)‎ . . Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2018 January ‎ (→‎2018 January)

07:43, 24 January 2018 (diff | hist) . . (+1,659)‎ . . User talk:Jusdafax ‎ (request)

09:53, 21 January 2018 (diff | hist) . . (+1,365)‎ . . User talk:Piotrus ‎ (clearing up name issues)

19:21, 18 January 2018 (diff | hist) . . (+1,289)‎ . . User talk:Yobot ‎ (clearing up name issues)

08:52, 16 January 2018 (diff | hist) . . (+1,289)‎ . . User talk:Davidcannon ‎ (disambiguation with Nazi composer)

For background to below. These are notifications made by @Pvangastel: who reports in them to be the grandson of the composer. While sympathetic to the Hungarian name issue, we do have certain rules about COI and sources and titling which need to be at least be acknowledged. @Kleuske: In ictu oculi (talk) 18:40, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Move review request 1 February 2018

Paul Hermann (composer) → Pál Hermann – Pál (or Paul) Hermann (this article) is a Hungarian musician/composer who happens to have the same Anglicized name as a German botanist (Paul Hermann) and a Nazi composer/poet (apparently whose sole notable work is Es ist für uns eine Zeit angekommen), and there is also German speed skater Paul Herrmann to consider in this discussion. Because of the Nazi poet, the use of (composer) as a disambiguator is insufficient; I suggest:

• this article's title should be Pál Hermann per WP:NATURALDAB with Paul Hermann (Hungarian composer) and Paul Hermann (musician) as redirects;
• the Nazi composer should have Paul Hermann (Nazi composer) and Paul Hermann (poet) as redirects to Es ist für uns eine Zeit angekommen;
• Paul Hermann (composer) should be a disambiguation page, or a redirect to a Paul Hermann WP:APO page;
• Paul Hermann (speed skater) should be a {{R from incorrect name}} redirect to Paul Herrmann.

-- Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:18, 1 February 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. ToThAc (talk) 17:47, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

I'm bringing this from a move review request opened today, which I requested to close because there has not actually been a move discussion, however there is an apparent move war in progress between the current title and the proposed title, thus I am opening a discussion although I've not done much research on the subject. I am leaving the page unprotected for now but do not take that as an invitation to continue move-warring. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:18, 1 February 2018 (UTC) courtesy ping active participants: @Kleuske: @Pvangastel: Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:19, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

• Support per researched and detailed nomination. Since there is no indication that Pál Hermann used "Paul Hermann" as his professional name on an international scale, the Western-order Hungarian form of his birth name should be this article's main title header, with Pal Hermann which, as of this writing, is a redlink, created as a redirect, alongside other currently redlinked forms Pal Herman and Pál Herman. A hatnote or a disambiguation page section header "See also" may also specify the alternatively-spelled name Paul Herman. As for the author of "Es ist für uns eine Zeit angekommen", the qualifier may also be "(German composer)", unless there is a specific indication of his membership in the National Socialist Party. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 17:03, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

I'm using machine translation, but it seems German Wikipedia is quite adamant that Hermann's version of the poem was deliberate Nazi propaganda, with sources I can't access. This source describes him as a member of the Berliner Tonkünstlerverein (the Berlin or German musicians' union, roughly), although at that time it had been dissolved and replaced by the Reichsmusikkammer. I would say that Nazi is thus not inappropriate, but neither is German. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:32, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

@Ivanvector: I'm reading in German and as relates to that carol fine, but I have added a source to the carol and frankly the existence or otherwise of the man who edited the carol is barely notable, wheras Paul Hermann, the murdered Jewish composer clearly is notable. The issue now relates to modern sources for the composer, and in particular the difference between lead and title. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:43, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Well that's fine, but there remains an issue that there is a composer named Paul Hermann with content (though not an article) who is not the composer named Paul Hermann whom this article is about. How to resolve the ambiguity? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:46, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

There's barely content, honestly the other Paul Hermann is a nobody, a WP:DABMENTION on Paul Hermann (disambiguation) is already more than he deserves. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:54, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Also I can find no trace that the German who changed the carol lyrics ever composed anything, all recordings on music by Paul Hermann seem to be by the Jewish composer. And the German music teacher did nothing more than retrofit secular lyrics to a number of existing folk songs, i.e. a lyricist or arranger. Therefore I have taken the liberty of cutting "Komponist und Musiklehrer" out of the text in the de.wp article, we'll see if anyone reverts it. But either way you're not a composer unless you have WP:RS in German books saying so, and he doesn't. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:56, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Yeah you're likely right, but I'm concerned by the unusual (though highly unlikely) situation that a user may go looking for information on Paul Hermann the Nazi composer and end up on a page about Paul Hermann the Jewish composer. I suppose that can be mitigated with hatnotes? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:00, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

That is not an unreasonable concern. Nevertheless a title has to go via WP:COMMONNAME and it's difficult to argue with the composer's music finding its way (finally) onto CD and radio under "Paul" that we can buck that in the title. Lead yes, maybe. Title no. In ictu oculi (talk) 19:04, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose noble attempt by Ivanvector to sort through this, but @Roman Spinner: the Jewish composer is known today in recordings of his music as Paul https://store.hmv.com/music/cd/paul-hermann-forbidden-music-in-world-war-ii the botanist should be at Paul Hermann (botanist). In ictu oculi (talk) 18:10, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

@In ictu oculi: at the time of his birth in the Hungarian capital, Budapest, it was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, with a sizable Austrian population, in the same manner that there was a Hungarian population in Vienna. "Hermann" is not a Hungarian name, but rather a Germanic one. Thus, with his Jewish heritage as another key consideration, an argument may, indeed, be put forth regarding the uncertainty of his designation as a Hungarian. Various sources are inconsistent — one references him as "Paul", while another uses "Pál". —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 19:03, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

And how is someone buying a CD off HMV going to know all that? That's the difference between WP:FULLNAME for lead, and WP:COMMONNAME for title. But in fact neither of your sources there count as sources, they are just webpages. If we look in books, we'll find WP:RS. In ictu oculi (talk) 19:05, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Depending on the source, some music references will refer to "Paul" and others to "Pal". —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 19:36, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

But musopen.org isn't a source. None of those vanilla Google html results are sources, that is just Internet webcruft. WP:RS requires books:

GBooks "cellist Paul Hermann

GBooks "cellist Pal Hermann

GBooks "composer Paul Hermann

GBooks "composer Pal Hermann

Books have "Paul", not surprisingly as he performed in London Vienna Paris and Berlin as Paul not Pal. Bear in mind also that the Hungarians were just as keen on murdering Jews as Germans at this period, so "Paul" would be the spelling in Netherlands and France. In ictu oculi (talk) 19:52, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

If Hermann considered himself ethnically Hungarian, he would have used "Pál", rather than "Paul" as his professional name in the same manner as a Polish performer who was proud of his Polish heritage would use "Paweł" and a Czech would use "Pavel". The fact that Hermann used the German-French-English form "Paul" indicates that despite his birth in Budapest, he likely considered himself as part of the Austrian, rather than the Hungarian, side of the Empire.

The fact that this should be even a point of discussion underlines how frequently he is referenced as "Pál" on the internet and much weight is placed within Wikipedia articles upon the place of birth in establishing one's national and ethnic identity. As far as "Hungarians were just as keen on murdering Jews as Germans at this period", Hermann's performances in Western European venues took place took place during 1920s and 1930s when the status of Hungarian Jews was similar to that of Jews in France or Belgium, thus providing no specific reason for him to deny his Hungarian heritage if he felt such heritage represented his national identity. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 20:47, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Well anyway, lets' stick with books and Paul, we don't need this much discussion. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:11, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose. There are too many aspects in the proposal.
  • If he is known as Paul Herrmann in most international sources, the article name can stay as it is, with a redirect from the lesser-known birth name. Compare Ringo Starr.
  • It looks like he is the by far more notable composer (primary topic), so again t can stay as it is.
  • IF the other composer will ever get an article (what I highly doubt), that could be Paul Hermann (composer born 1904). He doesn't need to be mentioned on any disambiguation, nor need a redirect, until that happens because it's so unlikely.
  • I'd remove the hatnote, - no need to give any prominence to a redirect. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:36, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
    • I'm fine with all of this, except I'm strongly opposed to removing the hatnote (but open to alternative wording). Whether or not the Nazi composer is or might become notable (which I agree is unlikely) he exists, and is a contemporary of this Jewish composer. Someone who reads about the Nazi version somewhere and comes here looking for its author will land on this page about a person with the same name active at the same time, implying that a Jewish person wrote the Nazi poem. That's not just ambiguous, it's harmfully inaccurate as there's a strongly negative stigma attached to Jews who assisted the Nazis, and Paul Hermann the Hungarian composer was not one. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:19, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

again, the "Nazi composer" does not appear to have existed. We only have a German military lyricist, not a second composer. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:54, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Are we both still talking about the Paul Hermann who wrote the lyrics to the Nazi propaganda carol, who it has been established is not the same person as the Hungarian Paul Hermann who is the subject of this article? Is it that Paul Hermann who you now argue does not appear to have existed? Sorry, I'm just confused. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:06, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

I concur that if the main title header for the Budapest-born composer ultimately remains at "Paul", rather than be moved to "Pál", then a more prominent differentiation is needed from the author of the Nazi-era song. They were very close contemporaries — born only two years apart (in 1902 and 1904) — thus perhaps requiring, in the lead paragraph of the Budapest-born composer's article, a mention to the effect that "He is not to be confused with the same-named German lyricist (born 1904) of the Nazi propaganda Christmas carol "Es ist für uns eine Zeit angekommen"." —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 15:30, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

• Support Hermann himself used Paul as a cellist and Pál as a composer. Therefore I think it is clearer to write Pál Hermann (composer) rather then Paul Hermann (composer).Pvangastel (talk) 08:29, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Not that it matters for WP:COMMONNAME but actually we don't know that that is true, given that in his English, Dutch, French and German sources he is always Paul Hermann, it is only his signature on music manuscripts that was in Hungarian, which is relevant to lead for WP:FULLNAME not not relevant to title. Title and lead have different rules. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:57, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for that reaction. The problem is, what you're saying is not true. Google "Pal Hermann", and you'll see for yourself. Moreover, if you search "Pal Hermann" on youtube, you'll find videos (also from US and Germany) that portray his music. However, if you search "Paul Hermann" on Youtube these videos do not show. I just think Wikipedia is not efficient when calling him "Paul Hermann" in English and Dutch. I have no personal issue with Pal or Paul, but I DO have an issue with confusing archives. What you're saying about the signature is not true, please check the Pal Hermann manuscripts yourself (all made public on IMSLP) to see that they are NOT in Hungarian. Let me know, thanks Pvangastel (talk) 07:01, 12 February 2018 (UTC)