Talk:Kamala Harris

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Tesr1208 (article contribs). This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 10 January 2019 and 25 April 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Bookerxv (article contribs).

Someone please add info about her father.

https://www.marieclaire.com/politics/a28259825/who-is-donald-harris-kamala-harris-father/

https://web.stanford.edu/~dharris/professional_career.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:101:8200:DC60:481A:B03F:A1E8:C916 (talk) 21:03, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Intended Reversion: Harris' 1994 Appointments to Two State Commissions by Assembly Speaker During Her Romantic Relationship With Assembly Speaker

I intend to restore the following text to this article, which Bnguyen1114 removed without adequate justification on 10 June 2020:

"In May 1994, California Assembly Speaker Willie Brown appointed Harris to the state Unemployment Insurance Appeals Board, a position that paid $52,500 per year. In November 1994, Speaker Brown appointed Harris to the California Medical Assistance Commission, a part-time position that paid $72,000 per year. The Los Angeles Times noted Harris' romantic relationship with Speaker Brown at the time of the appointments in 1994, "Harris, a former deputy district attorney in Alameda County, was described by several people at the Capitol as Brown’s girlfriend. In March, San Francisco Chronicle columnist Herb Caen called her “the Speaker’s new steady.”""

This material, substantiated with the cited contemporary "Los Angeles Times" article, is important to understanding the arc of Kamala Harris' career. Ms. Harris had a romantic relationship with a senior government official with appointing power, who during the course of the romantic relationship appointed Ms. Harris to two lucrative governmental positions. The magnitude of the compensation is important for the reader to know. These positions were not unpaid, but instead had substantial financial compensation. Ms. Harris became a "former deputy district attorney in Alameda County" in order to accept these positions. Jab73 (talk) 20:55, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

I am the one that removed that information. It is my understanding that when we include criticisms in our BLPs we need to provide substantial sourcing that demonstrates that the information is not only accurate but that it rises to a level of importance to include in our short overview of the subject's life. Can you provide multiple RS? Gandydancer (talk) 22:55, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Looking back I removed only the salaries but I left the rest of the info. The date was June 8. I did google this and found that it came up again related to her run for president. Here is what Vox had to say: [1] Gandydancer (talk) 00:13, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

On 13 June 2020, I restored and added to the discussion about the Kamala Harris-Willie Brown romantic relationship, during which then-California Assembly Speaker Brown appointed Harris to two well-paid state commissions. Just 71 minutes after I made this edit, user "Calton" eliminated my edit, in its entirety, with no explanation other than "And I have removed them". See:

"21:31, 13 June 2020‎ Calton talk contribs‎ 170,395 bytes -1,389‎ Reverted to revision 962252172 by Bnguyen1114 (talk): And I have removed them (TW) undothank Tag: Undo" I intend to restore the text that I added on 13 June 2020, which user "Calton" removed just 71 minutes later. I shall wait 24 hours for user "Calton" to offer a reasonable justification for her/his edit on the "Talk" page. Other users may weigh in. The text that I have added is substantiated by contemporaneous newspaper articles in 1994-95. To the best of my knowledge, I have satisfied Wikipedia's requirements for edits to this page. Jab73 (talk) 22:08, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Other users may weigh in.

I checked, and as it turns out, Jimbo Wales did not die and leave you in charge of Wikipedia.

I shall wait 24 hours for user "Calton" to offer a reasonable justification

You have it backwards, son: as the one adding disputed material -- ESPECIALLY IN A WP:BLP -- it onus is on YOU to justify it. Not me, YOU. --Calton | Talk 22:13, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

It's a classic example of truth being used as a smear. I'm surprised it doesn't mention that Brown was married. The language is non-NPOV. Gandydancer should attempt to write this in an NPOV fashion before attempting to re-insert it; it would be an interesting exercise. You can tell by the adjectives, though. "Lucrative position" -- was it? How much did a Deputy DA in Alameda County make in 1994? --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 04:06, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't know where you got the idea that I want to reinsert it. If we included every time a politician gave out special favors we'd be at it for a long, long time and many of our political articles would expand. BTW, thanks for the "It's a classic example of truth being used as a smear" line because this is exactly what it is and I'm going to find that line very useful in my future editing. (BTW, I think that the only other time I edited this article was years ago when I deleted some tabloid-like stuff about her affair with Brown, a married man!!! and such...--though he and his wife had not lived together for years.) Gandydancer (talk) 17:00, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I got lost in the train of who said what; and I'm a bit frustrated trying to do anything or monitor anything on this article, since it keeps changing so dramatically. I do think a mention belongs in the article, just in passing; we can easily say Harris's political career was given an early boost when Brown appointed her to a patronage position; one sentence should suffice. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 19:17, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

I will defer to the editors on this one, I just took it out because it seems pointless. Bnguyen1114 (talk) 21:45, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Jpgordon, that seems reasonable to me. I have worked with the Elizabeth Warren article for years and like it or not we have pretty much had no choice but to include Pocahontas, err... information...because of her political positions and most recently because she was running as the Democratic candidate against Trump. At any rate, if Biden does happen to choose Harris as his running mate we can expect this information to spring into the forefront. Better to include it now than be forced to include it later. Perhaps? (Hope fully no one will wisely accuse me of crystal-balling--because I'm not.) Gandydancer (talk) 00:57, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Yeah i'm cool with adding a sentence or something - its all true so it should be there but maybe not to the level of detail as it previously was. Bnguyen1114 (talk) 01:19, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

User Calton has yet again reverted my revisions in their entirety (at 14:34, 15 June 2020‎). Calton did this 100% reversion without any discussion on this "Talk" page and a short note "At least three editors hae [sic] told you "no". Perhaps you should listen." Calton did not accurately represent what other editors have stated above on the "Talk" page.

After 24 hours, I plan to insert the text, as revised below, in response to feedback from other editors:

-- In 1994, California Assembly Speaker Willie Brown appointed Harris to well-paid positions on the state Unemployment Insurance Appeals Board and the California Medical Assistance Commission. The Los Angeles Times noted Harris' romantic relationship with Speaker Brown at the time of the appointments, "Harris, a former deputy district attorney in Alameda County, was described by several people at the Capitol as Brown’s girlfriend. In March, San Francisco Chronicle columnist Herb Caen called her “the Speaker’s new steady.”" Harris frequently accompanied Brown at events during his successful 1995 campaign for San Francisco mayor. In December 1995, Mayor-elect Brown announced that his romantic relationship with Harris had ended. --

This material is highly relevant to the career of Kamala Harris. Her 1994 appointments to well-paid positions (one with a $97,000 annual salary) on two state commissions during her romantic relationship with the appointing power were controversial and newsworthy at the time. Ms. Harris left her position at the Alameda County District Attorney's office to accept one or both positions. This was the first mention of "Kamala Harris" in many newspapers across California. The Harris-Brown romantic relationship was publicly acknowledged. By most objective measures, this type of material belongs in an encyclopedia article about a person, especially a prominent political figure. In the current "me, too" era, a public, romantic relationship with an appointing power that results in career advancement is relevant, especially when appointments to well-paid public positions are involved. The material that I have suggested for inclusion satisfies Wikipedia's core content policies, including "verifiability, no original research, neutral point of view." For verification, I have cited contemporary articles in the "Los Angeles Times" and "San Francisco Chronicle," two of California's major newspapers. Jab73 (talk) 08:41, 16 June 2020 (UTC) --

Comment:I agree with User:Bnguyen1114. The material is relevant, and documented, but a sentence or two might suffice. WP:UNDUE. JTRH (talk) 11:43, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Jab73's proposed copy is far too extensive and would be clearly an attempt to suggest that something improper took place. Plus, if our article clearly attempts to smear Harris, as this copy does, we must then write a rebuttal, adding even more copy to an already overly long section. For example read the following from the Vox article I mentioned above:

As Siders notes, suggesting that Brown had any influence over Harris’s professional ascent obscures the fact that he broadly exerted the same influence over numerous politicians in the region, given his wide-ranging position of power.

“It is difficult to find any successful politician in San Francisco who does not have history with Brown,” writes Siders. “Before being elected mayor of San Francisco the same year Harris ran for district attorney, Newsom owed his start in San Francisco politics to an appointment by Brown to the city’s Parking and Traffic Commission, and later, to the San Francisco Board of Supervisors.” It also gives Brown outsized credit for successes that Harris worked to achieve herself. Gandydancer (talk) 12:46, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

@Gandydancer: If you wrote a rebuttal to this to be placed in the article, then I would hope that it meets the requirements of WP:RS and WP:UNDUE. If there are no reliable secondary sources supporting the rebuttal, then it cannot be placed in the article.--Beneficii (talk) 16:50, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Seems to me consensus is pretty clear; if the event is to be included in this article, it should be given due weight without characterizations. "Assembly speaker Willie Brown (with whom Harris had a romantic relationship) appointed Harris to two state commissions early in her career." Details can be in the future article about the Harris' early career. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 15:50, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Here's how their relationship is addressed in Willie Brown's bio:

During the 1990s, Brown dated Kamala Harris, then an Alameda County Deputy District Attorney. There was speculation the two would marry, but Brown broke up with her shortly after being elected Mayor of San Francisco.

I wonder if it's fine to include this info in her personal life section? The lorax (talk) 17:48, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

I think it would be appropriate to have a sentence in the Personal Life section and then another sentence in the career section, given that Mayor Brown did appoint her to two commissions. But the level of detail Jab73 suggests seems excessive. I propose using his copy but cutting down the extraneous details about attending single events and adjectives like "well-paid." That's loaded language in my view. Bnguyen1114 (talk) 18:45, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

References

I believe that it would be appropriate in the Personal Life section as well. Unless we want to imply that her position was improperly gained the relationship should not be mentioned in the same breath that we report it. Unless, of course, if we then get into explaining that Brown granted other positions, etc., etc., and so on. And we don't. Gandydancer (talk) 19:06, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

@Jpgordon: I just looked at the article, and I don't see any mention of the romantic relationship at all, either in her personal life or in the section about her career. Wasn't the consensus that it be mentioned, but without a lot of detail and without characterization?--Beneficii (talk) 16:54, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

I added it back in. I do ask if anyone else wants to remove or change it, to please discuss such changes here first.--Beneficii (talk) 17:35, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Seems to me there was no consensus at all. But whatever, someone will change it or not, with or without discussing it here. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 17:38, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Well, I saw that Bnguyen1114 and Gandydancer both agreed to its inclusion. Gandydancer was the one that objected to the more detailed inclusion, as well as objected to characterization, which I think is fair--Beneficii (talk) 17:43, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

On May 19, 2020 User SummerMoonGoddess stripped this article of most of its discussion of the Willie Brown-Kamala Harris relationship. See Article Revision History: "18:25, 19 May 2020‎ SummerMoonGoddess talk contribs‎ 222,523 bytes -2,765‎ →‎Early career (1990 - 2003): not impartial text edited due to sexist framing". This was a major removal of text that had been in the article for a long time. His/her justification for removal was poor. It is not "sexist framing" to include discussion about Harris's two-year romantic relationship with the California Assembly Speaker and San Francisco mayoral candidate. There was a "quid pro quo" aspect to the Brown-Harris relationship in which Brown appointed Harris, his girlfriend, to two well-paid posts on state commissions. This raised ethical concerns, which were discussed in contemporary newspaper articles. Those appointments to state commissions caused Harris's name to appear in many newspapers across California for the first time, in the context of Harris being Speaker Brown's girlfriend whom Speaker Brown appointed to state commissions. Reliable sources state that Harris gained access to a political/social network when she accompanied Brown at events as his girlfriend that aided her political career. I also believe that there needs to be an investigation into the legitimacy of User SummerMoonGoddess because I cannot find many Wikipedia edits by such user (but I might be searching the wrong way). Therefore, I intend to restore some of the text that User SummerMoonGoddess removed on May 19, 2020. Jab73 (talk) 20:20, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

I believe that User SummerMoonGoddess should be investigated for possible abuse of WP:AUTOCONFIRM. Due to the WP:AUTOCONFIRM restriction, the "Kamala Harris" Wikipedia article cannot be edited unless the user has an account that is at least four days old and has made at least ten edits. User SummerMoonGoddess made his/her first edit anywhere on Wikipedia on 2020 May 14 and made exactly ten edits during the next four days to other Wikipedia articles, many of them minor. See the User Contributions History for User SummerMoonGoddess at the following link: [[2]]. Then after four days and ten edits (the bare minimum to gain WP:AUTOCONFIRM status in order to edit the "Kamala Harris" article), User SummerMoonGoddess removed most of the text from the "Kamala Harris" article concerning the Willie Brown-Kamala Harris romantic relationship (-2,765). See: "18:25, 19 May 2020 diff hist -2,765‎ Kamala Harris ‎ →‎Early career (1990 - 2003): not impartial text edited due to sexist framing." User SummerMoonGoddess has not revised any article anywhere else on Wikipedia since his/her "vandalism" to the Willie Brown-Kamala Harris section of the "Kamala Harris" article. Much of that text had been in the "Kamala Harris" Wikipedia article for a relatively long time before User SummerMoonGoddess removed it. There appears to have been a deliberate effort in recent weeks to scrub the "Kamala Harris" Wikipedia article of all references to her 1994-95 relationship with Willie Brown, which has been a source of public controversy for more than 25 years. On this basis, I have restored the exact text that User SummerMoonGoddess removed on 19 May 2020 and improved the citations. Jab73 (talk) 22:13, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

This talk page is to discuss article content, not make allegations about editor conduct. Even so, your allegation seems to boil down to "I don't like this edit therefore the editor should be investigated." Please assume good faith WP:AGF. Getting back to the content, as you can see in this section, what to include about Harris' relationship with Brown has been the subject of ongoing debate. I certainly wouldn't characterize it as settled for a relatively long time. Knope7 (talk) 16:53, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

On 12 July 2020, user Calton reverted text with this note in the Revision History: "23:22, 12 July 2020‎ Calton talk contribs‎ 179,744 bytes -3,534‎ Reverted to revision 967328529 by NedFausa (talk): Talk page, guy, talk page. No one died and left you in charge." User Calton did not discuss his reversion on this Talk page. I am not sure what Calton meant in Revision History by "Talk page, guy, talk page" because I had already explained my action on this Talk page. Calton offered no explanation for his/her reversion other than "No one died and left you in charge." As I have explained above, I am reverting back to text that had been in this article until User SummerMoonGoddess vandalized the article on 19 May 2020. I consider the conduct by User SummerMoonGoddess to violate Wikipedia's policy against "subtle vandalism" (WP:SNEAKY), specifically, "simultaneously using multiple accounts or IP addresses to vandalize." For these reasons, once again, I intend to restored the exact text that User SummerMoonGoddess removed on 19 May 2020 and improve the citations. As I have explained above, User SummerMoonGoddess did the bare minimum to attain WP:AUTOCONFIRM status with exactly ten edits over four days, vandalized the Willie Brown/Kamala Harris section of this page, and has made no edits on Wikipedia ever since the vandalism to this page. I cannot assume "good faith" of SummerMoonGoddess based on these facts. Jab73 (talk) 02:43, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

There is no consensus for this change, and I would really really advise you to tone down the heated rhetoric. Stop making declarations of what you "intend" to do, as that is beginning to down like article ownership assertions. Stop attacking this user "Summermoongoddess" on the talk page for Kamala Harris. If a user has run afoul of project policy then you should pursue the proper disciplinary channels for that, don't harangue them, repeatedly, here. ValarianB (talk) 04:23, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

ValarianB and others, please tell me the precise "proper disciplinary channels" for an investigation of conduct by User SummerMoonGoddess on this page, which can be characterized as "subtle vandalism" (WP:SNEAKY), as discussed above. There had been a general consensus on the Willie Brown/Kamala Harris relationship content until mid-May 2020 when User SummerMoonGoddess barely qualified for WP:AUTOCONFIRM by making the bare minimum ten edits over four days. Then User SummerMoonGoddess vandalized the Willie Brown/Kamala Harris section of this article and has not made another Wikipedia edit anywhere over the past two months. I am NOT making "article ownership" assertions. I am simply following Wikipedia's guidance to discuss changes on the "talk" page in attempt to reach consensus. "Consensus" is not reached by simply reverting text with a pithy note "Talk page, guy, talk page. No one died and left you in charge" In Revision History, with NO discussion on this Talk page, like Calton has done. Jab73 (talk) 17:55, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Guy, no one died and left you in charge. The onus for adding material is, has always been, and should be ON THE EDITOR ADDING IT. NO ONE needs your permission: quite the opposite, in fact. YOU need to gain consensus rather than simply declare you have it. --Calton | Talk 23:34, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Agree with ValarianB. If there was a notable silence, and found yourself in the position as to assuming what the consensus was, I can see someone reasonably stating what they "intend" to edit, and letting it sit for a good 24 hours or so. That is nowhere near the case here. If you really need guidance on "proper disciplinary channels", refer to Resolving user conduct disputes. That is so incredibly premature here that it stuns me that Im even referring to it, but it's a reasonable question. Just because there was a consensus in the past does not mean that there is one now. In fact, thats usually how it works. This article has gotten a lot of attention, both on Wikipedia and in the media. A lot more eyes are on the article, increasing the likelihood of edits and consensus seeking. Rklahn (talk) 01:20, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

I don’t see a solid WP justification for the removal of any of this information. I would concur with its restoration. (Just my disinterested drive-by consensus contribution) —Manicjedi (talk) (contribs)  17:54, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

I agree. So I have added to the article, "Her romantic relationship with Speaker Brown introduced Harris to political and social elites who aided launch of her own political career." I have substantiated that statement with citations to five reliable sources, all available on the live internet today. These sources include a contemporaneous newspaper article by San Francisco Chronicle columnist Herb Caen in December 1995, a profile of Harris in S.F. Weekly in 2003 while she was first running for San Francisco District Attorney, and three profiles of Harris written in 2019 during her run for U.S. president. Other editors might quibble with the precise wording, but this basic statement of fact belongs in an encyclopedia article. Furthermore, the 1994-95 Harris-Brown romantic relationship was not a private matter. As contemporary newspaper articles and photos substantiate, Harris frequently accompanied Brown at public events (especially while Brown ran successfully for San Francisco mayor in 1995) and both publicly acknowledged their relationship.Jab73 (talk) 22:32, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

User MrX has deleted the text "Her romantic relationship with Speaker Brown introduced Harris to political and social elites who aided launch of her own political career" without a good justification and without any explanation on this Talk page. User MrX wrote in revision history, "Not an improvement. Consensus for adding this should be sought on the article talk page. I believe it has been discussed several times before and has failed to gain consensus." Therefore, I have posted the following on the Talk page of User MrX: "Please explain your removal of the text "Her romantic relationship with Speaker Brown introduced Harris to political and social elites who aided launch of her own political career" in the Kamala Harris Wikipedia article. There is ongoing discussion about the Willie Brown-Kamala Harris on the Kamala Harris talk page. I posted a statement explaining my inserted text. I substantiated by text with five references to reliable sources. Yet you removed 100% of my text without making any comment on the Talk page. Your 100% veto of all of the proposed text, without any justification of your 100% veto on the Talk page, is not a good faith attempt on your part to reach consensus. Please ameliorate this by justifying your action on the Kamala Harris Talk page under the Willie Brown/Kamala Harris Romantic Relationship thread." Jab73 (talk) 23:06, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

I believe this material fails WP:DUEWEIGHT. It looks like you really had to plumb the depths to source it. The 1995 newspaper article is weak and doesn't really support the material as written. calmatters.org is not a suitable source for BLP content. The SF Weekly article is just ironic. It says "She's smart, she's experienced, and she's running for DA. But she's Willie Brown's ex-girlfriend, and her opponents are trying to crucify her for that." It doesn't support the material as written. - MrX 🖋 23:16, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Here is a previous related discussion: Talk:Kamala Harris/Archive 1#Willie Brown. - MrX 🖋 23:27, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

I disagree. This isn't a WP:DUEWEIGHT issue. Whole articles have been written about how the Willie Brown-Kamala Harris romantic relationship played a very important, if not crucial, role in launching Harris's political career. See especially the Politico Magazine and Los Angeles Magazine articles from August 2019, which I included among the five sources that I cited. The 2003 SF Weekly article also tends to demonstrate that Harris's romantic relationship with Brown had an extraordinary influence on her political career, which began with this 2003 San Francisco District Attorney race. Willie Brown, the other half of the Brown-Harris romantic relationship, even wrote about this in his San Francisco Chronicle column in January 2019. The 1995 Herb Caen San Francisco Chronicle column precisely proves the point that Harris's relationship with Brown aided her political career. Harris was a "nobody" in San Francisco and California politics until she advanced her career through her romantic relationship in 1994-95 with then-Assembly Speaker and San Francisco mayoral candidate Willie Brown, who appointed her (his girlfriend) to two well-paid posts on California state commissions. The first time that most Californians first saw the name "Kamala Harris" in newspapers was due to her status as Speaker Brown's girlfriend and his official appointments of Harris to well-paid posts. The articles show that Harris's romantic relationship with Brown gave Harris extraordinary access to San Francisco and Sacramento political and social elites and that Harris parlayed those contacts into her own political advancement. A Wikipedia User "SummerMoonGoddess" apparently created a Wikipedia account (a "sock puppet"?) specifically to gut the Kamala Harris article of Willie Brown-Kamala Harris romantic relationship material in May 2020, as discussed above. This action ("vandalism," in my view) removed longstanding text about the Brown/Harris romantic relationship. (See Contributions History [history], which shows the bare minimum four days and ten edits to qualify for status to edit the Kamala Harris article, and then the gutting of the Willie Brown romantic relationship material, and then no further editing activity anywhere on Wikipedia ever since.) I would encourage other Wikipedia editors to try to help reach a consensus. CalMatters is a very respected news outlet; CalMatters articles are published in major newspapers across California (especially CalMatters columnist Dan Walters). This very CalMatters article was re-published by KQED (link here), among other California news outlets. Therefore, User MrX has no basis to claim that CalMatters "is not a suitable source for BLP content." So KQED "is not a suitable source for BLP content"? A handful of Wikipedia editors are not entitled to a "heckler's veto." I'm one step away from escalating this text ("Her romantic relationship with Speaker Brown introduced Harris to political and social elites who aided launch of her own political career") to formal Wikipedia Dispute Resolution. Jab73 (talk) 00:24, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

I doubt most Californians know who the the California Assembly Speaker is let alone the name of his or her significant other. Please stop with the digressions into complaining about the conduct of other editors. This is not the forum for that. I agree with @MrX:. Sources that say there was a relationship do not necessarily support that the relationship played a crucial role in launching her career. As has been pointed out when this issue has been discussed before, Brown appointed many now prominent politicians to positions early in their career and there is no allegation I've seen that Harris was not qualified for any position she held. We need to be careful about a personal relationship being used to smear a woman in power. I'm not saying it can never be added, but the recent attempts fall short of what is necessary for me to support inclusion. Knope7 (talk) 01:08, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

@Jab73: It looks like you have been advocating for this content for 7 weeks without getting much traction. Your best options at this point are to accept that you don't have consensus and move on, or start an RfC to seek input from other editors. - MrX 🖋 01:43, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Attendance

I have reverted a recently proposed addition (in a new section) about Harris's Senate attendance record, cited to GovTrack. I don't think this tracker/aggregator website is a good sole source for any section, and I don't think that the fact is due weight here, given that it has not been the source of significant coverage in the reliable sources. I found one California news article noting that Harris' attendance record is explained by the fact that she (and others, like Sanders, Gillibrand, Booker, and Warren) skipped votes while campaigning for the presidency. The same article notes that "it appears none of the Democratic candidates would have changed the outcome of votes they missed in the GOP-held Senate." For these reasons, I don't believe that this content should be included in this encyclopedia article. Neutrality^talk 20:32, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Per WP policy you were correct to remove that edit. Gandydancer (talk) 20:45, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

I disagree. My addition meets Wikipedia's standards for inclusion. It has a "neutral point of view." It is not biased, it is accurate, it is sourced. Although there is "salvageable text," User Neutrality failed to improve it; instead Neutrality simply deleted the entire section. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution. "Member participation" or "voting participation" (percentage of roll call votes for which a position is recorded) is a standard metric of performance of a member of Congress. "Congressional Quarterly" (CQ) regularly compiles and reports it. It is a neutral, objective benchmark that is highly relevant to understanding the performance of a U.S. senator. "CQ" has compiled and published this metric for every member of Congress for around 70 years. If I had access to the "CQ" database or access to a public library right now, I would cite to the "CQ" "member participation" statistic, but GovTrack.us is reputable and objective. Senator Harris has skipped nearly one-quarter of all votes since she entered the Senate. She has a 23% absentee rate. That fact merits inclusion in a Wikipedia article about a U.S. senator. It's neutral and objective. Any reasons why Senator Harris fails to show up for Senate roll call votes is a secondary issue. Users Neutrality and Gandydancer and anyone else should explain why this objective benchmark does not belong in this article, citing exact Wikipedia policies. After 24 hours, I intend to restore this section to what I originally posted or with substantially similar material. Jab73 (talk) 22:34, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

You are under the misapprehension that a source guarantees inclusion. But "While information must be verifiable to be included in an article, all verifiable information need not be included in an article. Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article, and that it should be omitted or presented instead in a different article. The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content" (WP:ONUS). And, of course, you must not "restore the section after 24 hours" since it has been challenged and you lack consensus. Neutrality^talk 22:50, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

I certainly don't see a consensus for this addition. Her attendance record would have to be particularly notable compared to other senators, as established by reliable secondary sources. Just because a random factoid is true doesn't mean it merits inclusion. PrimaPrime (talk) 22:59, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

I agree that is not worth mentioning in the article. As far as I can tell, her missed votes record is comparable to that of other presidential candidates. If we were to include this, I would want to see at least a couple of secondary sources that emphasize it. - MrX 🖋 23:03, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

We should omit it unless it has received substantial coverage in reliable sources. TFD (talk) 04:46, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

The Four Deuces, I see it differently. Every article about every hamlet in the world includes basic information about population, area, climate, etc. We don't exclude that data unless it is outside the norms and specifically covered as such. I think attendance record is almost as basic a data item as age, term and political party. We should be working to include it for every elected official. S Philbrick(Talk) 13:25, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Our inclusion criteria are significantly more relaxed for geographical articles (see WP:GAZ) than for biographical articles. - MrX 🖋 15:41, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

That's because Wikipedia articles about hamlets should contain the basic information available in tertiary sources such as gazetteers. As the policy I linked to explains, tertiary sources may be helpful in evaluating due weight. Their authors decide the key facts that are important about each hamlet. But there is lots of basic information that they omit which nonetheless there may be figures for, such as number of nail salons, people who have masters' degrees, people who have cable tv. While all this information may be important to some people, the authors have decided that it lacks relevance for the average reader. You would have to show that directories of politicians routinely list attendance records in order to include it. I would guess that while most articles about hamlets have the information you mention, most articles about politicians do not list attendance records. The article on Mike Pence for example does not mention his Senate attendance record, although he is President of the Senate. And it's probably much lower than Harris. TFD (talk) 15:48, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

I have added this text to the "U.S. Senate" section of the article:

"Attendance Record

Harris has one of the worst attendance records among sitting U.S. senators. As of July 2020, Harris missed 23.2 percent of roll call votes (269 of 1,157 roll call votes) since her Senate tenure began, according to GovTrack: "This is much worse than the median of 1.7% among the lifetime records of senators currently serving."[273] As of July 2020, ProPublica found that Harris had missed 47.8 percent of votes during the 116th Congress, making her "the 4th most absent member of the Senate."[274]

[reference 273] https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/kamala_harris/412678 Retrieved July 7, 2020.

[reference 274] https://projects.propublica.org/represent/members/H001075/votes-missed/116 Retrieved July 7, 2020."

This section discusses a standard, objective benchmark used to evaluate performance of members of Congress across time: "voting participation"/"missed votes," calculated as a percentage of missed votes over a certain time period. The claims are verifiable, accurate, and not from original research, but rather analyses by two reputable sources: GovTrack.us and ProPublica. As discussed above, ideally "Congressional Quarterly" statistics on "voting participation" (a times series for members of Congress that extends back to the 1940s) would be cited, but I am not a "CQ" data subscriber and I cannot access "CQ" reference books at a public library at this time due to their COVID-19 closures. This particular "missed votes"/"voting participation" benchmark has salience with Senator Harris because of her chronic absenteeism. The facts that a senator has missed nearly half of all roll call votes during the current Congress and nearly one-quarter of all roll call votes since that senator entered the Senate belong in a comprehensive encyclopedia article. Excuses for absences might require additional explanation, but that is not an acceptable reason to strike entirely from a Wikipedia article all evidence about a standard benchmark used to evaluate current and former members of Congress. Attendance/Missed Votes/Voting Participation is as important to understanding a senator as "Committee Assignments" are, especially when a senator has skipped nearly one-fourth of all roll call votes during her Senate tenure. Jab73 (talk) 02:27, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Given the prior discussion, the WP:ONUS is still on you to develop consensus for this change before implementing it. You have yet to substantiate why Harris's attendance record is particularly noteworthy compared to other senators, based on coverage in reliable secondary sources. That she is guilty of "chronic absenteeism" is your personal opinion, and mere aggregators of primary data like GovTrack do not impute notability. PrimaPrime (talk) 02:41, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

I disagree. Neutrality needs to explain why he/she removed this entire section in its entirety, pouncing a mere 14 minutes after it was posted and without offering any justification for a 100% reversion on this Talk page. PrimaPrime needs to explain why GovTrack.us and ProPublica are not reliable sources. Attendance/Voting Participation/Missed Votes is a standard performance metric of a member of Congress. A Wikipedia article about a city should exclude data about population density or racial composition or average income just because another Wikipedia editor objects? In order to state the height of Mount Denali in feet/meters, must a Wikipedia editor cite not only U.S. Geological Survey reports, but also "reliable secondary sources" like the "Anchorage News" and the "Fairbanks Miner" newspapers? "Voting Participation"/"Missed Votes" is a standard benchmark and is salient because Senator Harris has low voting participation and a high percentage of missed votes. I suspect that 99 out of 100 American political science professors would agree that "voting participation/missed votes" belongs in a Wikipedia article, especially one about a U.S. senator who has skipped nearly one-fourth of all roll call votes during his/her Senate career. I have not proposed the term "chronic absenteeism" for inclusion in the text of the article, but it's a fair assessment when a senator has missed nearly one-quarter of all roll call votes during his or her entire tenure in Congress. Jab73 (talk) 03:20, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

You're free to disagree, but the policies and guidelines are clear. Take WP:BRD. You were bold and added information on Harris's attendance record, which you were allowed to do. Neutrality disagreed and reverted your edit, which they were also allowed to do, and asked instead for a discussion on the talk page. A discussion was held and a consensus developed against inclusion. Consensus can change, but the WP:ONUS is on you to seek that out before re-adding the edits in question.

As for your analogy about geographical data, this has also been addressed above; see WP:GAZ. The problem is not that GovTrack is an unreliable source, it's that reliability is different from notability. There are lots of facts that can be verified, but it doesn't mean all of them belong on a page. What you are being asked to do is provide secondary sources (such as news articles) which discuss her attendance record as being particularly noteworthy compared to other senators. Your opinion on its importance, or the imagined opinions of experts, are not relevant. PrimaPrime (talk) 04:11, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

PrimaPrime requests "secondary sources (such as news articles) which discuss her attendance record as being particularly noteworthy compared to other senators." Here are several:

(1) San Francisco Chronicle: "Kamala Harris among three 2020 candidates who have missed half of Senate votes": https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/Kamala-Harris-among-three-2020-candidates-who-14501334.php

(2) San Francisco Chronicle: "Kamala Harris has missed plenty of votes while campaigning. She’s not alone": https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/Kamala-Harris-has-missed-plenty-of-votes-while-14301072.php

(3) Bay Area News Group (San Jose Mercury News): "Kamala Harris is skipping Senate votes while running for president — and she’s not the only one": https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/08/18/kamala-harris-cory-booker-president-missed-votes/

(4) Associated Press: "Harris, Booker miss most votes of senators running in 2020": https://apnews.com/99dfefcf794b40fe8fe94ec239ce388f

(5) Politico: "Harris skips vote on California disaster aid to campaign for president": https://www.politico.com/story/2019/04/04/harris-skips-disaster-relief-vote-to-campaign-1253798

(6) Washington Examiner: "Kamala Harris, who clamped down on truancy in California, missed half her Senate votes": https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/kamala-harris-who-clamped-down-on-truancy-in-california-missed-half-her-senate-votes

I intend to restore the "Attendance" subsection after 24 hours to allow a consensus possibly to develop. User Neutrality and other users should not be deleting material without providing a justification on this Talk page. Jab73 (talk) 09:07, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

This is a start; however, as you have been reverted twice now, you should not unilaterally make these edits again without seeking a consensus first. PrimaPrime (talk) 10:04, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Jab73, I’ve already explained by reasoning above, so please don’t make mischaracterizations. As for the news articles, they all appear to be very similar to the Mercury News article I identified above. I don’t think it’s noteworthy in the context of an encyclopedia article. They basically boil down to “senators running for presidency, including Harris, miss a bunch of votes, but their absence did not affect the outcome of any measure.” Neutrality^talk 13:46, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

It is a perennial and pithy critique leveled at pretty much every Senator that runs for president, D and R alike, rarely rising to a noteworthy criticism. Leave it out, imo. ValarianB (talk) 13:53, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

I am restoring the text, "Harris was absent from the Senate for most of 2019. She missed 62 percent of all votes (265 of 428 votes), making her the "3rd most absent in votes compared to All Senators."". The fact is that Senator Harris skipped 62% of votes in 2019. This single fact arguably is the best summary of her role in the U.S. Senate in 2019. She simply was not present for the Senate's essential business for the vast majority of 2019. This fact merits inclusion in the section about Harris's work as a U.S. Senator in 2019. Any explanation for her missing 62% of votes in 2019 can be added in a second sentence or in a clause, which ValarianB is welcome to do. Missing a couple of votes is minor; unexcused absence for more than three-fifths of all votes in an entire year is noteworthy. Harris's absence from the Senate for most of 2019 was noted in contemporary reliable sources, including this Stanford University analysis from August 2019: https://www.hoover.org/research/misses-almost-45-votes-and-still-earns-full-salary-why-would-kamala-harris-ever-want-leave As the "2019" section currently is written, it focuses almost exclusively on Harris's public demands that presidential administration officials should resign, giving them undue weight. The reader ought to know that she skipped 62% of Senate votes that year. Jab73 (talk) 07:04, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

References

Please stop trying to turn this article into an attack page, and please make an effort at getting consensus for any of your changes. Volunteer Marek 08:08, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Jab73, please stop repeatedly adding disputed content to the article against consensus. PrimaPrime (talk) 17:41, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

I request that User Volunteer Marek immediately explain why he/she removed this text in its entirety: "Harris was absent from the Senate for most of 2019. She missed 62 percent of all votes (265 of 428 votes), making her the "3rd most absent in votes compared to All Senators." User "Volunteer Marek" offered no explanation and no good-faith effort to reach consensus, but instead posted this threat in Revision History: "Naw. Your edits do not have consensus and you’re very close to violating BLP at this point". I request that User "Volunteer Marek" explain how I'm "very close to violating BLP" as I am doing my best to reach consensus. User "Volunteer Marek" states above on this Talk page section, "Please stop trying to turn this article into an attack page." I demand that "Volunteer Marek" explain how this true, relevant statement, corroborated by several reliable sources, "Harris was absent from the Senate for most of 2019. She missed 62 percent of all votes (265 of 428 votes), making her the "3rd most absent in votes compared to All Senators" is unjustified. I intend to restore this text and references and add a sentence explaining how Sen. Harris skipped a major vote concerning California disaster aid in 2019, with this reliable source as a reference: https://www.politico.com/story/2019/04/04/harris-skips-disaster-relief-vote-to-campaign-1253798. As written right now, the "2019" section of this article gives undue weight to Harris's demands that various presidential administration officials should resign. The fact that Harris skipped 62% of Senate votes in 2019 is more meritorious of inclusion in a Wikipedia article about Senator Harris. Editors do not have a right to scrub from an article about a U.S. senator the established fact the senator skipped 62% of votes in a particular year. I'm willing to escalate this through Wikipedia's dispute resolution process. Jab73 (talk) 22:37, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

With some hesitation, Im going to jump in here. In full disclosure, Im involved in a talk section with both Jab73 and Volunteer Marek on another section on this same page. I would like to make my comment without reference to particular editors, but I find I must. Jab73 you are making edits to sections under active discussion on the talk page, and flirting close to the edge of WP:5P4. You should avoid making edits on subjects that are seeking or have achieved consensus. I think making demands of other editors at this point is unprovoked and unreasonable. You are, of course, free to go to the dispute resolution process, but I think thats premature. Volunteer Marek clearly you are provoking a reaction, intentionally or not. I don't have any objection to the two edits I have seen, but it might be better to avoid this area until cooler heads prevail. Rklahn (talk) 23:04, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

You don't have consensus for this content. The reason why it's undue weight has been explained extensively here, by about six editors. That you have continuously inserted this against consensus is disruption. That you have made "demands" of other editors is similarly disruptive. Both behaviors violate the encyclopedia's policies on user conduct. Neutrality^talk 22:56, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

According to the WP policy WP:WEIGHT,

Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources.

The disputed text is, "Harris was absent from the Senate for most of 2019. She missed 62 percent of all votes (265 of 428 votes), making her the "3rd most absent in votes compared to All Senators."

User:Jab73 gave 6 WP:RSs that discuss Harris' attendance. I did a Google search for "Kamala Harris Senate attendance" and found many more.

It's not a critique aimed at every Senator who runs for office, because Harris had missed more votes than most of the other Senators. The WP:RSs point that out, which gives it WP:WEIGHT and makes it notable.

According to WP:CONSENSUS, Consensus is not a majority vote:

Consensus on Wikipedia does not mean unanimity (which is ideal but not always achievable), nor is it the result of a vote. Decision making and reaching consensus involve an effort to incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns, while respecting Wikipedia's policies and guidelines.

It seems clear to me that the disputed text meets WP:WEIGHT, and therefore, following WP policy, belongs in the article. It seems to me that it meets Consensus, even if it doesn't have a majority vote, because we have attempted to address all editors' legitimate concerns, and it meets Wikipedia's policies and guidelines.

I'm mainly concerned with the integrity of the WP editing process. It seems that, in this and other candidate pages, a group of editors who favor a candidate could easily get a majority of editors on a page to delete negative information about the candidate, even though that information is well-represented in WP:RSs.

You could say that Jab73 doesn't have consensus to include it, or you could say that the other editors don't have consensus to delete it. I think Jab73's 6 citations should weigh more heavily in the consensus than the argument, "You don't have consensus because 6 of us voted against consensus" (which seems to be the main argument against it). WP:IDONTLIKEIT doesn't count in consensus votes.

Could someone explain to me why WP:WEIGHT doesn't apply in this case? --Nbauman (talk) 18:19, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

When it is one against many, the onus is on the one to make their case. Thus far, this user has not done so. This is a routine criticism levied at every Senator who runs for president... Marco Rubio, 2016, Rubio again, but also covers Obama and Clinton McCain 2008, Sanders and Cruz, 2016, and so on. Routine political cycles. ValarianB (talk) 15:11, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

It's more than one among many. Several people want it in. Several WP:RS have reported it.

I'm making the case. I think the policy WP:WEIGHT applies. What Wikipedia policies or guidelines can you give to argue that it doesn't apply? --Nbauman (talk) 17:14, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Policies and guidelines, you say? That a consensus Wikipedia editors feel it gives undue weight to a minor, trivial, and routine criticism. The proposer of this addition frequently invokes the language "Restoring X" or "I intend to restore X", and acting as a one-man army looks like a battleground approach to editing, which can, if prolonged, be viewed as disruptive. ValarianB (talk) 17:54, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

I have added this text to the "2019" section of the article, with citations to reliable sources: "In 2019, Harris missed 61.9 percent of Senate votes (265 of 428 votes), as she prioritized her presidential campaign above her official Senate duties." As I have stated above, "voting participation" / "missed votes" is an objective performance benchmark of a member of Congress. See, e.g., the "Congressional Quarterly" "voting participation" metrics that "CQ" has compiled for every member of Congress since the late 1940s (data time series covering thousands of members of Congress and extending over 70 years). Harris missed three out of every five votes in 2019. That is a fact. Other Wikipedia editors simply want to conceal this pertinent, well-documented, and relevant fact. Please add an explanation or a clarification, but don't remove this relevant fact for some unstated or bogus reason. It is not "a minor, trivial, and routine criticism." If you were paid for 52 weeks of work, but showed up for work just 20 weeks, and then said, "You should pay me for the 32 weeks that I was absent without leave because I was out looking for a better job," isn't that noteworthy? I added the second clause because other editors said that Harris' high absence rate require explanation. As it currently is written the entire "2019" section gives undue weight, with excessive detail, to instances wherein Harris criticized members of the presidential administration. I believe that I am following Wikipedia best practices in explaining my reasoning, which is well-grounded in reliable sources and scholarly practices for evaluating performance of members of Congress. Jab73 (talk) 10:06, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

What reliable source says "she prioritized her presidential campaign above her official Senate duties"? --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 18:28, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Once again, removed. There is no support for what is essentially a piece of trivial errata. ValarianB (talk) 13:39, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Agree with ValarianB. Prejudicial when brought up out of context. This is common among members of both parties in both houses when running for higher office. Procedures exist in both houses to minimize its impact. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a newspaper, opinion page, or attack piece. Rklahn (talk) 13:57, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Attendance has made its way back in to the article via Revision 968895981. No attempt to address the concerns brought here by jpgordon, ValarianB, and myself. No consensus was proposed or discussed. Adding more citations, in no way, addresses the concerns. I will, in a few moments, undo to restore the status quo. Rklahn (talk) 05:37, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

I have added this text to the "2019" section of the article, with citations to reliable sources: "In 2019, Harris missed 61.9 percent of Senate votes (265 of 428 votes) and was "3rd most absent in votes compared to All Senators," according to a GovTrack.us analysis. Harris's missed votes included an April 1st vote on H.R. 268, a disaster aid package to help California rebuild after wildfires." I challenge anyone to dispute the neutrality of these two sentences. They are well-documented facts, supported by official and reliable sources. As the "2019" section now is written, it focuses almost exclusively on Harris's criticism of the presidential administration (undue weight) and says little or nothing about Harris's official activities on the Senate floor. Other editors above have not attempted to reach a good-faith consensus about the well-documented fact that Harris skipped more than three-fifths of roll call votes in 2019. Any explanation for his chronic absenteeism from her fundamental duty as a member of Congress is a secondary matter, that could be further explained without deleting the fact that she missed 62% of votes that year. Concerning Harris's missed vote for California wildfire disaster aid on April 1, 2019, "Politico" reported on her absence at the time. "Politico" is cited as a reliable source elsewhere in this article, including the "2019" section, so if any editor decides to "scrub" discussion about her absence on that vote, then that editor first should give an acceptable justification on this "Talk" page. Jab73 (talk) 05:37, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

if any editor decides to "scrub" discussion about her absence on that vote, then that editor first should give an acceptable justification on this "Talk" page.'

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Also: wrong. You're not in a position to issue orders. Once again: the burden of proof or justification lies with the editor ADDING THE MATERIAL. You do not have consensus. Nobody here works for you and nobody here is required to meet with your personal approval for ANYTHING.

At this point, it's becoming pure disruption, and a topic ban/page block for you is perfectly justified. --Calton | Talk 05:50, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Calton managed to undo before I did. I think the only consensus on this topic at this point is that there is no consensus. You must discuss and propose on the talk page BEFORE you edit on this topic. You must also give those us who have contrary thoughts time to address your proposal. This is beginning to look like Disruptive editing, and on a page that is under Semi-protection and active arbitration remedies, troubling. Rklahn (talk) 06:02, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Jab73's argument, in large part, seems to rely in on an 4/1/2019 vote on H.R. 268. To be totally accurate (again, the edit is missing context), there were two Senate cloture votes that day, one on an amendment, one on the bill itself. Cloture is a procedural motion, to end debate. Cloture requires a three-fifths vote, normally these days, 60 votes. Neither vote was close. 44 - 49 and 46 - 48. Harris' presence would not have made a difference, one way or another, regardless of how she voted. "Harris's missed votes included an April 1st vote on H.R. 268, a disaster aid package to help California rebuild after wildfires." carries with it an implication that it was a non-procedural vote, and that her vote would have made a difference, neither of which is true. [3]

If we had prose on a particular important piece of legislation that did not pass because she was absent, or something that passed that should not have, I would be for that edit. If Im reading this right, "Politico" seemed to be prejudicial here, and the quality of their being a source elsewhere is interesting, but unimportant. Simply stating statistics on her voting record without context is also not right. Most Senate votes are procedural, most don't pass, most are not even close. Rklahn (talk) 06:38, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

As I noted much earlier in this discussion, this is a perennial topic that hits every Congressperson who runs for higher office. The idea that "missed votes", when nearly every outcome of a Congressional vote is known ahead of time (exceptions are rare these days), as an actual measure of of member of Congress doing or not doing their job is rather naïve. ValarianB (talk) 13:14, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

I think information about how a representative votes is arguably the most relevant information about them, as that is their primary function?

This information should simply be presented as information, without critical editorial nor defensive explanation.

—Manicjedi (talk) (contribs)  18:05, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Manicjedi. How a representative votes is indeed the most relevant information about him or her. That's why "Congressional Quarterly" has calculated "Voting Participation" metrics for every member of Congress since the 1940s. GovTrack.us has a similar benchmark called "Missed Votes." It's a well-documented fact that Senator Kamala Harris missed 62 percent of Senate votes in 2019. That fact most certainly belongs in the "2019" section of the Kamala Harris article. Yet other editors are simply deleting this well-substantiated fact, supported by numerous reliable sources, and making no good-faith effort to reach a consensus. I agree that "[t]his information should simply be presented as information, without critical editorial nor defensive explanation." This is why I have opened a Wikipedia Dispute Resolution Noticeboard case. I invite as many editors to participate as possible. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Kamala_Harris Jab73 (talk) 08:26, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

I also agree with Manicjedi, but, still, not in agreement with Jab73. The question is one of quality, not quantity. What important legislation passed or failed with the Subjects vote is encyclopedic, an abstract percentage is not. Rklahn (talk) 01:05, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

I agree that the entire site system should be changed. This isn't specific to Kamala Harris because other members of Congress have missed votes in a way that is fair to be included wherever, e.g. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/05/bernie-sanders-absent-as-anti-surveillance-senate-amendment-fails.html 2601:482:8000:C470:E805:A0E0:6ECC:E282 (talk) 14:23, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

No, voting is not "the most relevant information", that is a misunderstanding of American Civics. The work a member of Congress does to represent the best interests of their constituency is what is relevant, done via bill authorship, committee membership, fact-finding, Congressional oversight, and many other areas. The "yea" / "nay" part of a Congressmember's duties is, despite what films and television lead you to believe, quite mundane. ValarianB (talk) 16:05, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

So a Senator's voting record (esp. absentee rate) cannot be included in a Wikipedia article about that Senator because "The "yea"/"nay" part of a Congressmember's duties is ... quite mundane"? Voting on the floor is the fundamental duty of a member of Congress. To paraphrase the late Senator Carl Hayden (D-Arizona, served 1927-69), are we supposed to focus only on "show horses" (senators whose primary mission is to posture for visibility) and ignore "work horses" (senators who focus the actual business of legislating)? (See January 1964 "National Geographic" article about U.S. Capitol.) I have cited an objective benchmark calculated for every member of Congress back to the 1940s -- "Voting Participation" (Congressional Quarterly), also known as "Missed Votes" (GovTrack.us). I think that the vast majority of encyclopedia readers would find it relevant that a Senator missed 62% of votes in a single year. The explanation for the absenteeism is secondary. Senate Rule IV.2 says, "No Senator shall absent himself from the service of the Senate without leave." No better benchmark demonstrates a Senator's absences then the "Voting Participation" (CQ) and "Missed Votes" (GovTrack.us) metrics, reported for every individual senator for every year back to the 1940s. Jab73 (talk) 02:06, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Senator Carl Hayden is an interesting reference in this context. He is certainly well known, deservedly so, as a "work horse." I wont spend a lot of time on it, his page covers this well. His influence in the development of the Western America is important. But if we take a different, completely objective measure of a Senator's productivity, time spent on the floor of the Senate, or even, time spent speaking on the floor of the Senate, Sen. Hayden fails quite spectacularly. Both are citable. Both are very objective. Neither without context is at all encyclopedic, even prejudicial. For an example on how to make such a statistic relevant, just head over to Sen. Hayden's page. Voting attendance is a similar metric. Without context, it says nothing about effectiveness, it's not encyclopedic, and it's prejudicial. Rklahn (talk) 03:15, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

United States Senate Rule VI.2 states, "No Senator shall absent himself from the service of the Senate without leave." I am still researching what qualifies as "leave," but I think it that requires formal action to provide "leave." I recall that a couple of senators received "leave" from their official duties during the 1999 Clinton impeachment trial to attend a state funeral in Jordan. I doubt that a senator is given "leave" from her official duties just because she is attending to non-official business (e.g., personal political advancement). I encourage other editors to research this and to ascertain if Senator Harris had "leave" when she "absent[ed]" herself from 62% of Senate votes in 2019. Jab73 (talk) 01:48, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

References

This sounds a lot like original research. If reliable secondary source are not reporting on this, then it clearly should not be included in this article. Again, she's not the only presidential candidate this cycle serving in the Senate who missed votes. Knope7 (talk) 02:09, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Jab73, with respect, none of what you're saying is relevant to us. Nothing betrays the mission of the Wikipedia more than a user on a crusade to force their own personal opinion into a BLP article, and this is shown especially by the "I am still researching..." part. All of this is your own personal research, your own personal context on a factual matter of a voting record. Please read WP:OR, WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, engage in some serious self-reflection before this all ends badly. ValarianB (talk) 04:19, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Jab73 again, with some hesitation, Im going to reenter this. Ive discussed my thoughts on this edit at length in this section, and wont repeat them. I also think I should avoid introducing new arguments into this, as the topic is under Dispute resolution. I think the problem Im having with the edit in this moment is that you are making no attempt to satisfy the objections of others, including myself. We go round and round, with essentially the same edit, making essentially the same points. Im still trying to Assume good faith and draw no negative assumptions about this. I legitimately think you think that the "objective criteria" without context is citable, relevant, and encyclopedic. I just don't think that, for reasons stated. But as the editor proposing the edit, I think the onus is on you to find consensus. Given some free time on my side, I may just try and come up with an alternate edit, to break the impasse, but until then, I look forward to seeing how this works out. Rklahn (talk) 07:38, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Jab73, you are saying that you would vote for a senator who showed up 100% of the time to vote with Bernie Sanders rather than a senator who only showed up to vote for every important vote for Donald Trump or vice versa. That you value attendance for unimportant votes more than how someone votes on major issues. In reality, people vote for representatives they think will represent them on the issues that matter to them. And you haven't mentioned anything about Mike Pence, the President of the Senate whose attendance record is 10 times lower than Harris. TFD (talk) 05:26, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Entering into some POV for a moment, I would have reversed the examples, but the essence of what TFD is saying is right. And the Pence point is insightful. He is almost never in the Senate, but when he is and voting, it's probably going to be encyclopedic. Let's take a historical example for a moment. Aaron Burr's attendance record, both as a Senator and as President of the Senate is horrible. But its not even close to what he is encyclopedic for. Rklahn (talk) 07:38, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Here's something some of you might enjoy: GovTrack's chart of missed votes by presidential candidates since 2008. It does make it pretty obvious that presidential candidates missing votes is not only not unusual, it is commonplace, and expected. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 02:23, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

I do find this interesting. Thanks for pointing it out. I think it backs up my opinion that the edit in question is prejudicial in the absence of context. Others, of course, may draw different conclusions. Rklahn (talk) 02:47, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

A Canadian Senator, Andy Thompson got in trouble for poor attendance and voluntarily retired from his lifetime appointment. His attendance led to his expulsion from his party caucus, criticism from the main opposition party and received extensive media coverage. This issue is covered in his Wikipedia biography sourced to newspaper articles specifically about his attendance record. Unless we have something similar for Harris it lacks weight for inclusion. TFD (talk) 03:20, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

A consensus proposal: No inclusion of her 2019 Senate attendance record. No inclusion of missed votes on specific legislation unless result could change from her presence. This is the current status quo, no edit is needed to achieve this. Rklahn (talk) 14:29, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

I disagree. A "consensus" that a proposer openly admits is "the current status quo" (which is to exclude 100% of the proposed content) is not an authentic "consensus proposal." The "2019" section of the article now is 100% about Harris's criticism of individuals in the presidential administration. That's WP:RSUW. There should be more that can be said about a year in a senator's career, especially that the senator was absent 62 percent of the time. "No inclusion of missed votes on specific legislation unless result could change from her presence" is vague and overbroad. Harris skipped votes concerning California wildfire/disaster aid, which WP:RS like ''Politico'' commented upon. See article. What justifies exclusion of that controversy from the article? Who is to say that if Harris had been present for floor debate and the votes that her rhetoric wouldn't have changed the result, "from her presence" in the cloakroom, looking senators in the eye and saying, "The entire town of Paradise is gone - please pass this"? Furthermore, it's an unfair hurdle for an editor to prove "unless a result could change." That could implicate WP:NOR and cause endless sub-debates about how to handle "paired votes" [votes]. Jab73 (talk) 01:30, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

I regret now proposing a consensus. I went out of my lane. As I mentioned on dispute resolution noticeboard the onus is on you to do so. I think it is naive to think that Sen. Harris could have made such a convincing floor speech or done sufficient cloakroom work that the California wildfire bill would have passed. That is the realm of fiction. Accepting it as possibly true, redundancy is built into the system. Where was Sen. Feinstein? Perhaps this better belongs on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Fire_(2018)#Political where it may be encyclopedic and not prejudicial. There is some discussion of failed legislation there. I think I have covered your other points already. Rklahn (talk) 02:21, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

This is somewhat off-topic but indeed, there is little meaningful debate in the Senate and the outcomes of votes are largely predetermined. It's not like The West Wing where a rousing speech moves the opposition to support a bill. PrimaPrime (talk) 02:26, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Continuing the off-topic topic: I was thinking more Mr. Smith Goes to Washington a 1939 movie based loosely on an event that happened in 1923. Thats how rare a convincing floor speech on the Senate floor is. Rklahn (talk) 05:29, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

A consensus proposal: Add to "2019" section: "In 2019, the year when Harris ran for president, she missed 62 percent of Senate votes (265 of 428 votes) and was "3rd most absent in votes compared to All Senators," according to a GovTrack.us analysis." This sentence would refer to: " "Sen. Kamala Harris’s 2019 Report Card," GovTrack.us" with a link to https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/kamala_harris/412678/report-card/2019 Right now the "2019" section is 100 percent about Harris's criticism of presidential administration officials. This is Undue Weight. WP:RSUW My proposed edit cites an objective metric or benchmark ("Missed Votes"/"Voting Participation") that GovTrack.us calculates and analyzes for every member of Congress every year. The fundamental duty of a legislator is to participate in consensus-building floor debate and cast floor votes. It's highly relevant to understanding a senator's legislative record.Jab73 (talk) 01:04, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

If the only source you're basing her attendance on is GovTrack, then RSUW would suggest it is undue to include. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:33, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

My other source is Congressional Quarterly's "Voting Participation" metric for Senator Kamala Harris for 2019 - it's 38%. See: https://library.cqpress.com/uspoliticalstats/document.php?id=706691 GovTrack.us measures "Missed Votes" - 62% for Sen. Harris for 2019, so they're complementary and reinforce each other (CQ measures % of votes made; GovTrack measures % of votes missed, so they add to 100% = 38% + 62%). CQ has calculated these metrics for every member of Congress every year back to the 1940s, so you can "take to the bank" CQ's "Voting Participation" analysis. That ought to address your RSUW concern. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jab73 (talk • contribs) 01:17, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm happy to see at least a recognition that consensus must be reached, but I don't think this is a true consensus. There is no attempt to address the concerns of other editors, and looks a lot like a rehash of your original edit. I have covered nearly every point you bring up here already. It does not bother me that the "2019" section is commentary about anything. If you think its undue weight, propose editing the current text. You might want to seek consensus first, given the track record on this section and others. In regards to "consensus-building floor debate" you brought Senator Carl Hayden into this discussion, who was an incredibly effective Senator who rarely participated in floor debate. Applying a different standard to Sen. Harris, to overuse a word, seems prejudicial. Rklahn (talk) 02:21, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

As I've just discussed above, the Congressional Quarterly "Voting Participation" score for Sen. Kamala Harris in 2019 was 38%. See for yourself here: https://library.cqpress.com/uspoliticalstats/document.php?id=706691 This confirms the accuracy of GovTrack's 62% "Missed Votes" metric that I've cited. CQ is undeniably a Reliable Source for congressional performance; CQ has compiled and published this objective benchmark for every member of Congress for every year since the 1940s. Your analogy to Senator Hayden is inapt. He participated in floor votes, as his high CQ "Voting Participation" scores attest (seen in the CQ annual almanacs in 1950s and '60s). "Missed Votes"/"Voting Participation" metrics, and related discussion, are what is at issue here. A couple of editors' steadfast and illogical refusal to accept objective performance metrics by CQ or GovTrack should not be the basis to exclude all discussion about a senator's attendance record, including discussion about significant votes that the senator has missed, from an article. WP:ROWN I could add a second sentence to my consensus proposal: " Congressional Quarterly similarly found that Harris participated in 38 percent of votes in 2019," with a citation to https://library.cqpress.com/uspoliticalstats/document.php?id=706691 This would have to suffice as a source until CQ publishes its "CQ 2019 Almanac" later in 2020. If this does not meet your satisfaction, please suggest a reasonable consensus. Jab73 (talk) 01:49, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

As succinctly as I can put this; no. There is no more discussion to be had on this topic, your position has been resoundingly rejected by others. It is time to stop beating the dead horse and move on from this. ValarianB (talk) 02:30, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

The only new thing I have to add here is that I agree with ValarianB. Every word. I have addressed every single one of your points, but will emphasize, again: "The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content." I have unsuccessfully stepped out of my lane to propose a consensus. Im not going to do so again. Rklahn (talk) 02:47, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

@Jab73: you and other editors should know that your DRN has been closed. A neutral 3rd party left extensive discussion why, and provided alternatives. One of the alternatives is to resume the discussion here. Until someone (including, potentially, myself) initiates one of the other alternatives, I will continue here. Rklahn (talk) 17:13, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Harris' attendance record like almost if not everything else in the article is not inherently significant, but only significant to the extent it has been covered in reliable sources. It is not our role to explain what we think is important about Harris, but what reliable sources find important. Also, there is implicit criticism in saying that Harris had a poor attendance record. A reputable newspaper would ask Harris about it before publishing and include her response, per journalistic ethnics. Since we cannot do that, we rely on media to do the work for us before we mention it. TFD (talk) 17:39, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Moving forward with NPOV issues

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

We're not going to be rolling back, obviously. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 19:55, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

---

Re. It got noticed, I can only see two options going forward: vet all changes made, and modify the article from the state it was left in to address neutrality and content removal concerns; or revert to the pre-changes state and add in changes as appropriate. I'm starting this discussion to see which people would prefer. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 18:52, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

• Revert and re-add: I feel it's better to revert to Special:Diff/952562673/cur and re-add changes as necessary. The issue isn't just the blanking of complete sections. There's smaller changes, as well, which aid in puffery, remove critical statements, and even small critical words. I think there are serious NPOV issues here that are going to be an incredible amount of work to address in any other way. The issue extends to the Political positions of Kamala Harris article as well, where the political positions section of this article was selectively moved. I did boldly attempt to make this change, but in hindsight I agree with NedFausa for pointing out there should probably be a consensus on which option to go for before making such a large alteration. I appreciate that work has already been done on the vet and modify option, but I don't see how each change can be properly addressed with this, and ultimately I think it'd be a greater waste of everyone's time if following through with this option takes more time than the alternative. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 18:52, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

• Revert and re-add: I agree with the comment above. We need to maintain NPOV.—Beneficii (talk) 19:00, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

• Revert and re-add: for all the reasons stated above. This isn't a page or website meant to promote only the good and safe versions of people, especially politicians.TropicAces (talk) 19:09, 6 July 2020 (UTC)tropicAces

• OPPOSE Revert and re-add: ProcrastinatingReader presents us with a false dichotomy—either "vet all changes made and modify the article from the state it was left in" or destroy the countless good faith contributions by me and numerous other editors to mitigate damage done by a fanboy. A third option (and there are likely others as well) is to continue repairing this BLP as we have done since 2 July 2020, when The Intercept exposé dropped. That does not require vetting all changes made by the fanboy. Rather, it involves closely scrutinizing our article as it now stands and making changes as justified by WP policies/guidelines and with consensus by interested editors. As I wrote here earlier today, a draconian rollback would take a meat cleaver to a page that is undergoing reconstructive surgery. Please, let's not succumb to impatience in some mad rush to mollify The Intercept. NedFausa (talk) 19:16, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

  This isn't about The Intercept. Anyone looking at the revision history of this article could've seen this. They just happened to realise before one of us did, apparently. That third option is the second option, you're just stating that you're already in the process of doing said option hence we shouldn't revert. That's a fine statement, but there is no "false dichotomy" here. But, this article is 70k characters of readable prose in size, not including the text moved to Political positions of Kamala Harris. Including that, we're talking about 90k characters. It's an enormous article. GA/FA reviews of articles of this size take long enough, how are we going to vet each sentence across 90k characters for neutrality? How long will that take? Meanwhile, are readers going to see this scrubbed version? There are little edits made as well, removing things like "Harris was criticised for her view in ___" changed to "Harris was reported to be ___". The undertaking required to fix this article will be huge. I appreciate you've invested time in this already, but given that almost all of the content edits over the last few months were made by this one user, reverting it would've been more practical to do without excessive loss of content, and doing it now may be the overall greater time saver and result in a better outcome, even despite the time you've already invested in fixing this. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 19:22, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

@ProcrastinatingReader: Just as a point of curiosity, let me ask why it took four days following The Intercept exposé to bring your meat cleaver to Kamala Harris, which you had never before edited? You could have saved me and numerous other editors a great deal of effort simply by coming here in a timely manner. NedFausa (talk) 19:41, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

This isn't about any person's effort -- if it were, we'd simply honor the vast amount of work that has caused the problem. This is about the quality of the article; no reason to personalize the argument. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 20:21, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

• This is a thorny problem, but it is also important to note that POV on high-profile political figures typically comes from both pro- and anti- directions, so that a blanket reversion can end up reintroducing content that really does not belong in the article. Can we get a listing here on the talk page of the most significant specific points that have either been added or removed from the article, and which bear attention? BD2412 T 19:34, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
• Revert and re-add. Too much damage was done to incrementally remove it; it will be much easier to incrementally re-add it. We shouldn't have let it get this far, but I'm not sure there were clear policy-based reasons to get it to stop without the COI being raised externally. Sad thing is, these are good edits done in good faith, just with not enough understanding of what constitutes WP:NPOV and WP:COI. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 19:36, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
• Mount an investigation of prolific user / Revert and re-add: We know that there is a prolific user who has been editing this page. We know that this person almost definitely works for the Kamala Harris campaign. Action should be taken to revert and re-add but we should also call on Wikipedia moderators to mount an investigation into the user. As someone who edits a lot of politicians' pages myself, I know how critical it is that campaigns do not interfere in these matters. We need to send a message that this work by campaigns, the same done by Sarah Palin in 2008 and Tim Kaine in 2016, is unacceptable. Revert and re-add, and mount an investigation. PickleG13 (talk) 21:27, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

  I personally have no interest in a dramatic 'investigation' here, this is about moving forward with the content issues. The editor in question said they're a regular citizen who had some extra time in lockdown and wanted to spend time building this article, for a candidate they like. I'm happy to AGF unless there's more evidence that comes to light. I feel bad that I'm petitioning to scrap their work (I hope the good parts will be added back in), but it's just necessary at this point. This editor had no ill-intent as far as I can see, it's just an unfortunate series of events. We don't expect new users to read 30 policy pages of 50 paragraphs each, this is why we give talk page warnings, and we tend to give multiple before blocking. Yet, not a single talk page warning for COI/NPOV was given, no attempt to explain to him what he was doing wrong before he spent so much time on this. 300+ editors watchlist this page, almost 200 have viewed recent changes recently, and multiple experienced editors and admins have been involved over 3 months. He was flooding the history of this page, so it's not like it was discreet editing. That editor isn't alone to blame here. That nobody took the time to at least leave a template NPOV/COI warning I view as our collective failure. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 22:10, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

  I agree with you here but apparently to the opposite conclusion. Without a clear reason not to AGF and the fact that the edits were being made openly and generally without objection until The Intercept chose to make a story out of it, I feel that people suddenly jumping in with a desire to to take extreme action is inappropriate. PrimaPrime (talk) 22:18, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

  This isn't about whether they're 'officially connected', regardless of official connection we have in front of us scrubbing of controversial content and rewording of issues to make them appear less problematic. I'm sorry that we're at this stage, but the content of this article matters more than any other issue. We feasibly cannot fix this at "the current pace of change" or even many times the current pace. There's people here who wish to fix this version, but nobody is going to read every sentence of 90k char prose, compare to previous, alter for NPOV. Even if there were, it'd take weeks at least, and we cannot keep this version live that long, especially not at this critical time in US politics. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 22:26, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

  I don't think Wikipedia should pay heed to outside media speculation, not least because Harris isn't currently on a presidential ticket. And I think there is the potential for a large revert to simply produce the opposite problem of an article littered with overzealous NPOV/UNDUE criticism of Harris. PrimaPrime (talk) 22:35, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

  The article was relatively stable for a long period of time. No editors other than this one have made major changes since, so any NPOV concerns with that version were addressed solely by this editor, whose edits have NPOV issues of their own, so I don't think that concern is logical. Logically, this version has at least, likely far more, NPOV issues than the old revision. Obviously, we still vet the changes they made and re-add them. It's just much faster to do it this way, rather than try to fix the current version. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 22:37, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose this drastic and binary approach being presented after several days of editors working quietly to correct the NPOV issues with this article, and the recusal of the prolific editor in question. Without any proof they are officially connected to Harris, I see no reason not to continue with the current pace of change. PrimaPrime (talk) 22:15, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

By all means, let's throw the baby out with the bathwater. NedFausa (talk) 22:51, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

• OPPOSE Revert: A large portion of the argument to revert is based on speed. What is unstated, but could be reasonably inferred, is a concern about what state the article would be in when a potential upcoming political announcement is made. I think forgoing the standard revision process to present a particular set of facts at a particular time would be in itself a political move that Wikipedia should have no part in. -- Norvy (talk) 23:04, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
• Revert and Readd NPOV must be maintained.XavierGreen (talk) 00:13, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Since the fanboy's last edit, and as of 00:17, 7 July 2020‎, 44 unique editors have made a cumulative 162 good-faith contributions to Kamala Harris. (Both totals exclude the aptly named ProcrastinatingReader.) Option Two in effect gives each of us the middle-finger salute. NedFausa (talk) 00:26, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Not really; most of the work you have done will probably go right back into the article first thing; why shouldn't it? And please stop personalizing this; it doesn't matter where or why people are now more interested in this article; it also doesn't matter a bean whether your edits, the edits of the other guy, or anyone elses go into the article. It's not about you. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 02:37, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose- Edit (and discuss when necessary) details that were added or removed that contribute to NPOV allegations instead of taking a sledgehammer to the problem. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 00:45, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose- I don't see much of a defense of the article as it was in April just fear stoked by the Intercept. The article has long had a POV problem in that every criticism that could be lobbed at anyone connected with the California AG's office during Harris tenure would make its way into the article. Unless someone actually wants to investigate and find facts to support actual misconduct, I say let's focus on fixing this article rather than bringing back old problems. Knope7 (talk) 01:59, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose Dozens of editors have been working for days to improve this article and the editor who has been criticized in the press has stepped aside for now. Let the normal editing process continue, in accordance with our policies and guidelines. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:43, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose by my count we are 220 or so edits past Bnguyen's last batch of largest edits around June 12. Lots of good editors have had eyes on it since and continue to do so. Reverting does not make sense at this point; the ship is righted and on course.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 04:07, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
• Revert and re-add. I don't mind any of the edits I've made being undone. The corresponding original content was even more detailed with a better wording. I disagree with the principle that dates and visibility shouldn't matter when addressing large amounts of edits, because then every corporate PR person looking to push an image of a product on its release date or promotion at an expo will be secure in knowing the edits will be treated like any other edit, but that's a matter for Wikipedia policy. All that matters is in this case the content will be improved. Serpentinite (talk) 13:10, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose - considerable effort has been made by several users to improve the article. Also it has never actually been successfully articulated how and why some of these supposed changes were in violation of policy (it seems they weren't, which is why some editors focused on attacking who made them). Even putting that aside, it makes no sense to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Volunteer Marek 06:56, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support Revert and Re-add - It's quite clear that this article was edited in a severely biased manner and that much material that belonged in the article was removed without good reason. I also support putting on an NPOV tag on the article until some semblance of a consensus version emerges. Iamcuriousblue (talk) 11:03, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
• Revert and re-add. - This article seems to have become a battlefield, with certain editors pushing strongly against any language that might show Harris in a bad light. This ranges from small edits like adding "while" and "only" to make criticisms of Harris sound less significant, to large things, like the structure of the article (just compare the table of contents between April and today, where the old table of contents reflects the controversy behind some of Harris's track record more accurately). The article has been tampered with beyond repair and the best way forward seems to revert to a state before these nefarious edits happened and then add the missing information with a NPOV in mind. Mirek2 (talk) 09:34, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

• ’’’Revert to April’’’, re-add any info modularly, in the sunshine.

—Manicjedi (talk) (contribs)  18:12, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Comment - While this discussion has been open for a while without much consensus developing, dozens of editors have been working productively to improve the article. I don't think it's fair to continue holding the spectre of a mass rollback over their contributions. PrimaPrime (talk) 09:16, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Two swipes at the Bar

There have been some recent edits around Sen. Harris not passing the bar on the first attempt. I don't think its WP:NPOV or even WP:WIAE. Many people don't pass the Bar on their first attempt. In California, the pass rate is something like 40%. Both Pete Wilson (Former US Senator) and Jerry Brown (former CA AG) did not pass the bar on their first attempt. Hillary Clinton and Michelle Obama did not pass the bar on the first attempt. FDR did not. Its mentioned on all but FDR's page, but I still don't think that makes it relevant. I would revert the edits and not even mention it. Rklahn (talk) 00:50, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

I am restoring the text concerning Harris's failure to pass the California Bar Exam that user Calton removed at 01:10, 10 July 2020. This "Talk" page item "Two swipes at the Bar" was already in existence when Calton made his/her removal, yet Calton failed to discuss his/her removal of the text on this Talk page before eliminating the text. Calton offered no justification for removing the text other than "rm undue detail." That is inadequate. I agree with the comment in the Revision History at 19:45, 9 July 2020‎ by Dchaid : "Re-added failed bar exam as it is not "useless" trivia, this person is a former prosecutor and United States Senator. Furthermore, this fact is encouraging to those who have also failed the bar exam" The assertion is supported by a reputable source, the American Bar Association. See: https://abaforlawstudents.com/2017/06/20/success-after-failing-the-bar-exam/ Jab73 (talk) 04:29, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

It’s undue, as has already been explained. Volunteer Marek 04:50, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

I intend to restore this text ("After graduating in 1989 Harris failed to pass the California Bar Exam, retrying and succeeding in 1990") after 24 hours with the same three or substantially similar references. In the past few hours, User "Volunteer Marek" has given inadequate justification before he/she deleted this text. A simple statement of "undue" in Revision History is inadequate. User Calton eliminated identical text as "undue detail," with no additional explanation. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Due_and_undue_weight It is not "undue weight" to make a short factual assertion: "After graduating in 1989 Harris failed to pass the California Bar Exam, retrying and succeeding in 1990." This short, seventeen word sentence is not a "viewpoint." It is a concise statement of relevant fact, substantiated by reliable sources including the American Bar Association and New York Times Magazine. This short factual assertion is highly relevant to Harris's career because membership in the State Bar of California was essential to her hiring as Alameda County prosecutor and her eligibility to serve as San Francisco District Attorney and California Attorney General (a mandatory prerequisite for the political office). Attorney General Jerry Brown was Harris's immediate predecessor. His Wikipedia articles states, "Returning to California, Brown took the state bar exam and passed on his second attempt." What justifies including this relevant fact in the Wikipedia article about Attorney General Jerry Brown, but deliberately excluding it from the Wikipedia article about Attorney General Kamala Harris, his immediate successor? U.S. Senator Pete Wilson from California also failed the California Bar Exam, as stated in his Wikipedia article. Yet Wikipedia is scrubbing Harris's Bar Exam failure from her profile -- what justifies suppression of this relevant fact? Why is Harris's failure of the California Bar Exam judged by a different standard than men who preceded her in the exact same political offices (California Attorney General and California U.S. Senator)? Why give disparate treatment to Senator Harris that is favorable to her? Users Calton and Volunteer Marek do not appear to be engaging in good faith efforts to build consensus. Exclusion of the relevant, undisputed fact that Harris failed the California Bar Exam not only contravenes the basic principles of Wikipedia, but also undermines public credibility of Wikipedia as a neutral, reliable source of information. Therefore, I intend to escalate this to the Wikipedia Dispute Resolution Process.Jab73 (talk) 06:37, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

I think the restoration of the text was unwarranted and breaks WP:CON. My recollection, and I could be wrong, is that Calton's edit and my creating of this section were nearly simultaneous. I think Calton's edit is legitimately the status quo. Others commented in this section, and did not feel so moved to restore the bar exam text. Countless others read it and took no action. I don't think the existence of a similar section in others pages is justification for it to be in this page. It's very much a "would you jump off the bridge if everyone else did" argument. I would edit it in the other pages, but lack WP:NPOV. Jerry Brown is a former employer, and my negative views on Pete Wilson make me question my objectivity. I will leave the editing of those pages to others. I get the point that there are strong views here, but isn't reconciling those views the entire point of WP:CON, along with avoiding WP:EW. Dispute Resolution Process if you must, but I think it's premature. Rklahn (talk) 17:41, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

It's mentioned in the articles about Hillary Clinton and others. But it is not inherently significant, it depends on the prominence reliable sources give it. So far I don't see that, but it might become important if Harris is nominated for the vice presidency and the media focuses more clearly on her history. Then we we'll have lots of news stories about whether it encourages others or how the hell did she become a prosecutor. It is not up to us to raise these issues in readers' minds, just to report what reliable sources say about what it means. TFD (talk) 05:01, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Why is it relevant that she passed on the second try rather than the first? JTRH (talk) 20:17, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

It isn't relevant, unless reliable secondary sources make a point of noting it. PrimaPrime (talk) 05:59, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

I don't think it's relevant under most every circumstance. To do so is to point out a prejudicial fact without any context that it's common. Not every fact that can be sourced is WP:WIAE. Im trying to think of exceptions where it might be relevant, and am hard pressed. Maybe multiple failures and becoming Chief Justice or a prominent Associate Justice. In other words, a very high bar. Rklahn (talk) 18:07, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree. She is a person of note and all details related to her professional career are relevant. I am fine with adding context as California had a notoriously difficult bar exam until very recently. Harris has not hid this fact and has actively encouraged burgeoning law graduates to persevere if they fail the bar. Dchaid (talk) 20:04, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

all details related to her professional career are relevant -- no, that's not at all how it works on Wikipedia. We are not transcribers, we are editors; Wikipedia articles consist of sourced that consensus determines are both relevant and important enough to include. We do not include every detail of anyone's life. How important is it that it took her a couple tries to pass the bar? Not at all; it's a commonplace and says nothing whatsoever about anything. Otherwise, we'd include all sorts of things, every case she was ever on (how many did she lose? How many did she win?), all her professional affiliations, all the speeches she'd given, where she'd given them...No. We pick and choose, and I agree that this particular detail has no special significance. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 22:25, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Dchaid raises a good point, but we will find ourselves in disagreement on some of the details. Context changes everything here, but the actual pass rate of the California bar is not as relevant as the fact that intelligent, qualified, well known people regularly don't pass the bar the first time. As I said before, its prejudicial stated simply on its own. It's as relevant as someone's score on the SAT the first time you take it. A distinction with Harris in particular is her encouragement of law school graduates who find themselves in the same situation. Thats sourceable, relevant, and WP:WIAE. Rklahn (talk) 22:33, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

You're right, that makes it relevant. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 22:56, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

In that case we would write something like, "Harris frequently speaks to law students who have failed the bar exam, encouraging them to retake it, noting that most lawyers including herself did not pass on her first attempt and many of them went on to become distinguished lawyers, judges and law professors." TFD (talk) 16:24, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Boiled down, that's "famous attorney encourages law students", and so what? Relevant, yes, but of not much importance. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 21:51, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

It’s relevant, it’s true, it’s of minor but nonzero importance. Seems like a run of the mill, perhaps vaguely unflattering fact? I don’t believe that is a valid justification for removing it from an encyclopedia. —Manicjedi (talk) (contribs)  18:19, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Ah! Are "passing the bar" and "gaining admission to the State Bar" equivalent to each other? If so, we can correctly and NPOVly change "She passed the second bar examination offered after her graduation, and gained admission to the State Bar of California on June 14, 1990" to "She gained admission to the State Bar of California on June 14, 1990, on her second try." Non judgemental, factual, easy. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 20:01, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

The easiest way to include it just came to me with the latest addition: "She passed the second bar examination offered after her graduation, and gained admission to the State Bar of California on June 14, 1990." We can phrase this as "She passed the bar on her second try, and gained admission to the State Bar of California on June 14, 1990

I honestly thought we had consensus here. "Second attempt" is not encyclopedic. However, Im not going to simply undo. Im going to edit, removing the 2nd attempt, but retaining bar admission. As we don't seem to have consensus, I think further edits around 2nd attempt should be discussed here first. Rklahn (talk) 21:03, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Which is why I'm discussing it rather than editing it. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 22:22, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

I strongly commend the effort by User --jpgordon above to try to reach consensus. I'm in favor of his proposal for consensus: "She gained admission to the State Bar of California on June 14, 1990, on her second try." Harris is a U.S. senator from California, as is Pete Wilson, whose Wikipedia article says, "After passing the bar exam on his fourth attempt ..." Harris is a former California Attorney General, a position that requires State Bar membership for a requisite number of years. Jerry Brown also is a former California Attorney General. His Wikipedia article says, "Returning to California, Brown took the state bar exam and passed on his second attempt.” The State Bar website confirms the June 14, 1990 State Bar admission date for Kamala Harris: http://members.calbar.ca.gov/fal/Licensee/Detail/146672 Wikipedia should not treat Harris, a California U.S. senator and former California Attorney General, differently from other occupants of those offices who also did not pass the California Bar Exam on their first attempts. We might use "attempt" rather than "try" in order to be parallel with the language in the Pete Wilson and Jerry Brown Wikipedia articles, but I don't have a strong opinion about that word choice. I would encourage User --jpgordon to make his suggested amendment to the Kamala Harris article, perhaps after waiting sufficient time (24 hours?) for others to weigh in on this Talk page. Jab73 (talk) 23:37, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

On second thought, no. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 02:01, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Like Kamala Harris, Jerry Brown and Pete Wilson also ran for U.S. president. Running for president merits scrutiny of just about every aspect of the candidate's professional life. The Wikipedia article for Jerry Brown, a 1976, 1980 and 1992 presidential candidate and a former California Attorney General says, "Returning to California, Brown took the state bar exam and passed on his second attempt,” but here a couple of Wikipedia editors are blocking the article about Kamala Harris, also a presidential candidate (2020) and a former California Attorney General from making precisely the same point. The Wikipedia article for Pete Wilson, a 1996 presidential candidate and a former California U.S. senator says, "After passing the bar exam on his fourth attempt ...," but here a couple of Wikipedia editors are blocking the article about Kamala Harris, also a presidential candidate (2020) and a current California U.S. senator from making precisely the same point. What justifies the disparate treatment for presidential candidate, former California Attorney General, and current California U.S. Senator Kamala Harris from other presidential candidates, California Attorneys General and California U.S. senators, other than a couple of Wikipedia editors on her page exercising a form of "heckler's veto"? This likely merits escalation to a Wikipedia Dispute Resolution forum. Jab73 (talk) 02:29, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Go right ahead. It's served you well so far. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 02:32, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Again, I thought there was consensus against including the 2nd attempt in this article. Even if there is not, it's clearly the status quo, a subject of controversy, and deserves some talk page discussion before making an edit in this area. For the record: I continue to be against including the 2nd attempt language, for reasons already stated. I am on record elsewhere as opposing Kamala Harris' candidacy as President, or her potential selection as a Vice Presidential candidate. But I remain convinced that including Kamala Harris' two attempts at bar is prejudicial and not at all encyclopedic. I think I have something better than a neutral point of view here, Im editing despite POV to the contrary. As I have also already stated elsewhere, because of my lack of a neutral point of view I will not edit either the Jerry Brown or the Pete Wilson articles. I really think Jab73 should withdraw from Kamala Harris edits. There is no neutral point of view, a questioning of dormant consensus, edits without discussion, threatening of Dispute resolution, and lack of participation in Dispute resolution, I could go on. In short, a Disruptive editor. I hate to have to say this, but Ive now come to the point of view that others reached a long time ago, a topic ban may be exactly what is needed here. And, off topic for this section, but I cant believe that anyone would use Herb Caen, a gossip columnist, as a serious source on Wikipedia. Rklahn (talk) 04:19, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree regarding disruptive editing here, but I'm too involved (and I'll happily admit I'm a Harris supporter) to take action myself as an admin; perhaps you might want to raise this on WP:ANI. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 17:15, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Remove lead crystal ball about running mate

We need to remove the last sentence of the lead: "She is widely considered the top contender to be chosen by Joe Biden as his vice-presidential running mate." as it violates WP:CRYSTALBALL. At least, it should be removed to the article body instead of the lead, as it is mere speculation. This was brought up somewhere earlier but it got lost in another discussion.—Naddruf (talk ~ contribs) 20:05, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

The fact that she’s being mentioned in that capacity can be easily documented. JTRH (talk) 20:15, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

WP:CRYSTALLBALL says, " It is appropriate to report discussion and arguments about the prospects for success of future proposals and projects or whether some development will occur, if discussion is properly referenced. It is not appropriate for editors to insert their own opinions or analyses."

IOW we should report widely reported speculation about the future, but should not include our personal predictions. If Harris becomes the nominee, especially if she is elected, it will become the most notable thing about her until she becomes president.

TFD (talk) 20:52, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

The issue seems to be in "widely considered" which is wp:weasel and prompts a question: by whom? This can be seen in the NPR source cited: But Harris is often the first name mentioned by Democrats inside and on the edge of the Biden campaign's orbit. She topped a recent multi-state survey asking respondents for their preferred Biden running mate. And, for what it's worth, she's the runaway favorite on online betting sites.

I don't think this is sufficient to identify Harris as such in the lead. --K.e.coffman (talk) 23:35, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

WP:WEASEL cautions against "creating an impression that something specific and meaningful has been said, when in fact only a vague or ambiguous claim has been communicated." That's not the case here and the source concludes "Harris is seen as the consensus front-runner to become Democrats' vice presidential nominee." While you may think that what Democrats, Biden campaign staff and speculators think is of marginal importance, they are taken very seriously in the NPR article. Maybe its methodology is all wrong. Do you know if they have published a retraction or disciplined the author? Do you have any alternative sources that say something else?

In any case, we rely on conclusions reached in reliable sources, rather than the analysis of editors.

TFD (talk) 18:11, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Im not entirely comfortable with the VP speculation section, but I gotta say, consensus has been reached on this, and editors should bring their proposals here before before touching it in the article. WP:CRYSTALBALL, as TFD noted, is pretty clear on this being encyclopedic. Rklahn (talk) 23:32, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

I echo the reservations of everyone else - CRYSTAL + inherently speculative + WEASEL of "widely considered" - by whom? Presumably sources that don't agree are going to tend to keep quiet + promotional - why on earth does it need to be framed thus? She is a contender is all that is really verifiable. Pincrete (talk) 07:39, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Just to add that 1) One of the three sources does not support the text at all - it simply records that Harris is the 'betting favourite' 2) Given the ups and downs of any political campaign, are we going to alter this text every time Harris goes up or down a point or two, ditto the other contenders - NOTNEWS applies. At the very least IMO this kind of speculation should not be in the lead. Pincrete (talk) 08:00, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

No need for speculation in the lede, not least because this will be a moot question within a couple of weeks. Either she'll be the VP nominee or she won't. PrimaPrime (talk) 01:05, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Then it should be removed, as this is something that can't be known. It's like if you asked a bunch of random Democrats in 2018 who will be the 2020 presidential nominee. Just wait until the vp nominee is decided.—Naddruf (talk ~ contribs) 14:48, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

The issue is not about just speculation but it is whether it is the most notable aspect of. If she does not become the VP nominee would you still include it? If so why not as nothing has changed in her notability. The only change is if she becomes the VP nominee.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Emir of Wikipedia (talk • contribs) 15:03, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

It's important what is significant now. Per CRYSTALBALL we cannot speculate about how Harris will be covered in the future, only how she is covered now and in the past. But yes the fact someone was once considered to be the front runner for VP is likely to be mentioned in future biographies of Harris, even if it doesn't happen. TFD (talk) 03:25, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

NPOV Violations [WP:AB and WP:AUTO]: "Facts" Substantiated Only By Harris's Autobiography

I intend to begin removing and rewriting all "facts" asserted in this article that include Harris's autobiographies as their only source. Citations to autobiography appear to violate [Wikipedia policy]. See the numerous references to "(Harris, 2019)" in the footnotes. An autobiography published during a presidential campaign "(Harris, 2019)" certainly does not have NPOV. To import claims from the autobiography into this article certainly violates the Wikipedia policy concerning Autobiography. "Her refusal to budge caused JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon to call her office in a rage, accusing her of stealing from his shareholders ... Harris yelled back that he was ripping off her constituents ..." The only source cited for "refusal to budge" and "Harris yelled back" is Harris's autobiography. I encourage other users to investigate how this extremely biased text was placed into this article. It clearly violates the Wikipedia Autobiography policy and must be removed if it is not otherwise substantiated. Furthermore, the citations to "(Harris, 2019)" are confusing and unacceptably ambiguous because Harris apparently published two books in 2019. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jab73 (talk • contribs) 23:21, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Feel free to fact-tag them, but you shouldn’t remove unless you can affirmatively demonstrate that they’re not true. JTRH (talk) 00:28, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

JTRH, I have to disagree. Self-serving claims made in one's own autobiography need to be substantiated by independent sources as per WP:ABOUTSELF. May His Shadow Fall Upon You ● 📧 12:40, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

May His Shadow Fall Upon You That's what I meant by fact-tagging. And immediately below this is a demand to remove material for which I found independent sources in about 30 seconds of Googling.JTRH (talk) 13:33, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

JTRH, That demand is right, though. You found sources stating that she was a possible replacement for Holder. However, the sourced material is much more than that. You would need to find independent sources which stated that Holder called Harris and discussed the matters which Harris claimed were discussed. May His Shadow Fall Upon You ● 📧 14:06, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

May His Shadow Fall Upon You It's accurate that Harris's autobiography claims these things. It's documented that she was discussed as a replacement for Holder. The issue could also be addressed by making it clearer that the details of the conversation are her own assertions. JTRH (talk) 14:31, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

JTRH, As per WP:ABOUTSELF, self-serving claims made in one's own autobiography need to be substantiated by independent sources. The claim that she was a potential replacement for Holder can be substantiated using independent sources, so that's fine. Harris' own narrative about the call is not substantiated by anyone but Harris. Since the content of this conversation obviously fails WP:ABOUTSELF, it is considered a self-published source (as per policy) and should not be used. May His Shadow Fall Upon You ● 📧 13:42, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

May His Shadow Fall Upon You What if it were all preceded by, "Harris asserts that..." JTRH (talk) 18:27, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

JTRH, I believe the relevant policy is WP:BLPSELFPUB, which states that "There are living persons who publish material about themselves, such as through press releases or personal websites. Such material may be used as a source only if..." and then lists five criteria, all of which need to be satisfied in order to use the source. I think this would fail points 1 and 2 at the very least, which are "it is not unduly self-serving" and "it does not involve claims about third parties." The material is extremely self-serving, and it involves claims about a third party (Eric Holder.) May His Shadow Fall Upon You ● 📧 13:44, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

These poorly sourced sentences should be removed from the "Obama Appointment Speculation" section because the sole source is Harris's 2019 autobiography: "In her memoir, The Truths We Hold, Harris recounts a moment in 2014 when she answered a call from Eric Holder, informing her he was stepping down and asking if she wanted to take his place.[205] Harris informed Holder that if there were a budget at the Department of Justice to fund and create incentives for local re-entry initiatives, she would be interested. Holder explained no budget existed and any new spending would have to be approved by a Republican-controlled Congress.[206]" These sentences have verification problems. No reliable secondary source confirms that such a "call" occurred. Harris attributes words to Holder that do not have independent confirmation. Moreover, this is "undue weight." There should be serious consideration is to striking this "Obama Appointment Speculation" entirely because all of its contents are admittedly "speculation," with no citation to any source proving that President Obama seriously considered her for an appointment. Jab73 (talk) 01:30, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

A quick Google search brings up multiple journalistic sources stating that she was mentioned as a possible replacement for Holder.JTRH (talk) 02:19, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Per WP:ABOUTSELF, only very limited use can be made of Harris' autobiography. However, the same information in a reliable secondary source is fine, provided that source states it as a fact. Authors in reliable sources have the expertise to sort facts from fiction, while Wikipedia editors do not. In cases where they attribute the claims inline (e.g., "According to Harris"), so should we. Note too that per biographies of living persons, we cannot leave unsourced or poorly sourced material in the article. That's not a problem, because if it doesn't get picked up in reliable source, it fails weight for inclusion. TFD (talk) 02:00, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

I think a tagging of claims which would benefit from additional sourcing would be more conductive to improving the article. —Manicjedi (talk) (contribs)  18:22, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Is "Children's rights" an appropriate NPOV heading for her "Bureau of Children's Justice" section?

I propose changing the heading of that section to just "Bureau of Children's Justice". I really can't speak for anybody else, but I would imagine that most people wouldn't describe criminalizing poor school attendance as a "children's rights" initiative. I'm not sure how NPOV claims are handled, to be honest. So do with this what you may. But I felt it might be worth bringing up. Nikki Lee 1999 (talk) 04:59, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

...I would imagine that most people wouldn't describe criminalizing poor school attendance as a "children's rights"

Sure, that's the narrative some people -- like you, clearly -- have been trying to frame it as. I would advise you not to try to force that POV into this article, though. --Calton | Talk 06:46, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

@Calton: Truancy does not fall under the umbrella of human rights, let alone children's rights (which are a subset). Truancy or lack thereof is not a right. The title of the section is deeply misleading. Mirek2 (talk) 20:09, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

The Bureau of Children's Justice was not about children's rights any more than a Bureau of Criminal Justice would be about protecting the rights of criminals. It was about prosecuting children just as a Bureau of Criminal Justice would be about prosecuting criminals. The fact that no one has the right to break the law and criminals should be prosecuted is a red herring. TFD (talk) 20:49, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Mirek's NPOV wording changes

I really think the usage of "while" and "although" carries an excusing tone, and separating the sentences without these transition words makes the wording sound more neutral. 2601:482:8000:C470:D153:B56C:4DF7:CF5F (talk) 15:54, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you — I was just about to start this thread. For reference, these are the edits in question: https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Kamala_Harris&oldid=prev&diff=969203136.

I would very much like it if @Calton: could explain their reasoning for why they find "While Harris oversaw more than 1900 convictions for marijuana possession, lawyers working in her office stated that most defendants for low-level possession were not sent to prison, consistent with the city and county's law enforcement priorities." to be more neutral than "Harris oversaw more than 1900 convictions for marijuana possession. Lawyers working in her office stated that most defendants for low-level possession were not sent to prison, consistent with the city and county's law enforcement priorities." Mirek2 (talk) 09:14, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

@Calton: I would very much appreciate a reply. If I don't receive one in the next 24 hours, I will re-add my edits, as per Wikipedia rules. I still strongly believe that my changes helped contribute to a neutral point of view. Mirek2 (talk) 12:58, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong going on here, but this all feels a touch aggressive. Also "strongly believe [...] neutral point of view" seems suspect. Maybe Im reading too much into it. Perhaps the best thing here is to give Calton a little more time, perhaps a 24 hour extension. Rklahn (talk) 15:35, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

@Rklahn: Sure thing — July 28th it is. :) Mirek2 (talk) 22:17, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughtful consideration. Rklahn (talk) 23:23, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

I've incorporated my edits back into the article. The marijuana mention I edited based on the conversation below, the truancy mention I edited in a way to make it fit better with the content of the section — now the information about the initial controversy around the program is right after the program is mentioned, making it a better fit. Mirek2 (talk) 09:34, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

While the second part of the sentence is excusing, that's the point of mentioning it. Harris got more than 1900 convictions. Her staff says that's not so bad because most of them did not go to prison. it's not as if their comments about the imprisonment rate were unrelated to the conviction rate, otherwise why mention them at all? TFD (talk) 18:22, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

@The Four Deuces: Yes, that is the message Kamala Harris's staff is trying to get across, and the point of the addition of "most of them did not go to prison" is to make Harris look better. And it's this that goes squarely against Wikipedia's NPOV rule — articles should be focused on presenting the facts and letting the reader come to their own conclusions, they should not downplay select facts to paint a rosier picture. I would absolutely agree to removing the claim that "most defendants for low-level possession were not sent to prison" altogether, as the sole source given for that are lawyers who were working under Harris. Mirek2 (talk) 20:04, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

No, WP:NPOV says, "Articles must not take sides, but should explain the sides, fairly and without editorial bias." We are not supposed to provide the facts and let readers come to their own conclusions, we are supposed to explain the arguments presented. The text you objected to correctly attributes the argument to Harris' staff. TFD (talk) 20:31, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

How about "Harris oversaw more than 1900 convictions for marijuana possession, a higher rate than under her predecessor. In regard to this, lawyers working in her office stated that most defendants for low-level possession were not sent to prison, consistent with the city and county's law enforcement priorities." 2601:482:8000:C470:E805:A0E0:6ECC:E282 (talk) 22:39, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Sounds fine. TFD (talk) 22:46, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Sounds good to me! Added to the article. Mirek2 (talk) 09:34, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

2010 California Attorney General Election: "Harris was narrowly elected" Is Not "Editorializing"

Today User MrX deleted the word "narrowly" in this sentence in the lead paragraphs of this article: "Harris was narrowly elected Attorney General of California in 2010, and was re-elected in 2014 with an increased margin." See: "22:56, 1 August 2020‎ MrX talk contribs‎ 179,913 bytes -9‎ →‎top: rm editorializing". (See link.) The word "narrowly" has been in the lede of this article for a few weeks (written by a different editor, not me). It is not "editorializing." User MrX has no rational basis for characterizing inclusion of the word "narrowly" as "editorializing." It's an undisputed fact that the 2010 California Attorney General Election was a close one, decided "narrowly." See the official Statement of the Vote for the 2010 Attorney General race on the California Secretary of State's website. It conclusively proves that Harris defeated Cooley by less than one percentage point (Harris 46.1% vs. Cooley 45.3%, a margin of fewer than 80,000 votes out of more than 9 million cast in this race.) Moreover, it is "editorializing" for User MrX to remove the word "narrowly" in the first part of the sentence to describe the 2010 election, but leave "with an increased margin" in the latter part of the sentence to describe the 2014 election. That gives Undue Weight (WP:RSUW) to the margin of the 2014 election, which was not as newsworthy as the narrow margin of the 2010 election. That raises WP:NPOV concerns with this edit. Other editors are threatening me both publicly and privately to block me from this article. I would restore the word "narrowly" on my own, but I fear that other editors would accuse me baselessly of "edit warring." I encourage other editors to reach a consensus for restoration of "narrowly" in this context (or some other solution). Jab73 (talk) 01:18, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Your source does not describe her win as "narrowly", or any synonym of that word. - MrX 🖋 01:34, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

The objection by MrX seems ridiculous, but I will assume that it was made in good faith. There is no better "Reliable Source" (WP:RS) concerning California statewide election statistics than the California Secretary of State's "Statement of the Vote," which I have cited. Most neutral observers would say that an election decided by less than one percentage point (Harris 46.1% vs. Cooley 45.3%, a margin of fewer than 80,000 votes out of more than 9 million cast in this race) is "narrow." If an editor of a Wikipedia article about the element Uranium were to assert in the article, "An atom of uranimum-238 is 238 times more massive than an atom of hydrogen," why can't that editor just cite to an ultimate authority such as the Periodic Table of Elements? Why must that editor find a scientific journal or article that directly makes that precise and exact point? If quantity "A" is greater than quantity "B," must a Wikipedia editor cite to some source that states directly and conclusively quantity "A is greater than quantity "B" in a specific context? Nevertheless, User MrX wants sources that describe Harris's November 2010 win as being "narrowly" over her main opponent Cooley. Here are three: (1) Sacramento Bee: "And in 2010, Harris narrowly beat Republican Steve Cooley." (2) CNBC: "Harris was elected California attorney general in 2010, narrowly defeating Republican Steve Cooley." (3) KCRW: "San Francisco District Attorney Kamala Harris narrowly defeated Steve Cooley, the District Attorney of LA County, in last month's election." Q.E.D. I would recommend restoration of the word "narrowly" and citation to the Statement of the Vote and to one of the above reliable sources. Jab73 (talk) 02:13, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

This would seem to come under Routine calculations. It is obvious, correct, and a meaningful reflection of the sources to rephrase a 0.8% win as narrow. Maybe MrX has a different definition of narrow - I'd like to hear it. TFD (talk) 05:36, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

I disagree that it falls under routine calculations, however the matter is moot since Jab73 found sources. I would prefer that the adverb be used in the body of the article and not the lead, but I won't revert it again. - MrX 🖋 11:42, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

I disagree with the 4 August 2020 addition by User Cullen328 to the lede (lead) paragraphs concerning Harris's 2014 re-election, "with 57.5% of the vote" ( 20:03, 4 August 2020‎ Cullen328 talk contribs‎ 179,734 bytes +23‎ →‎top: percentage in 2014) I recommend reversion/deletion of the edit. MOS:LEAD That precise fact is already stated in the article text below where the 2014 Attorney General election is dicussed. MOS:REDUNDANCY The fact is not so significant that it should be placed in the lede. MOS:LEADCLUTTER In stark contrast, "narrowly" to describe the 2010 Attorney General has a better case for being in the lede. As the article explains, the November 2010 election was a close one, with the apparent winner changing a few times during the vote count in the weeks after the election. As the 2010 was Harris's first election to statewide office, and it was well-known as a very close "nail biter," the word "narrowly" merits inclusion in the lede. But the phrase "with 57.5% of the vote" to describe the 2014 re-election does not. Jab73 (talk) 01:02, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Jab73, if you disagree with including the percentage, then I will be happy to change it to "landslide" instead. If we are going to characterize her first win as "narrow", which is accurate, then we should also characterize her re-election as a landslide, which is also accurate. She trounced Ronald Gold by 15%, winning well over a million votes more than her rival. Is that acceptable as an alternative to the percentage? Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 01:16, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

What Reliable Source characterizes the 2014 California Attorney General election outcome as a "landslide"? Please locate them and cite them. What WP policy permits an editor on his/her own to characterize an election outcome as a "landslide," based solely on the election data? Furthermore, as I've already stated, the text of the article discloses the "57.5 percent" for Harris. That level of detail does not belong in the lead, based on my interpretation of the Wikipedia Manual of Style, as cited above. MOS:LEAD MOS:REDUNDANCY MOS:LEADCLUTTER Jab73 (talk) 02:02, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

On this particular point, I (unexpectedly) may have to find agreement with Mr. Jab73. Landslide electoral victories are transformational, watershed events, e.g. Reagan's drubbing of Mondale or LBJ of Goldwater. a 15% margin is a strong victory, likely a decisive one, but I think we'd be hard-pressed to find reliable, independent sources that would call her win a landslide. ValarianB (talk) 02:38, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

CalMatters, San Jose Mercury News & Washington Examiner Are Reliable Sources (WP:RS)

User MrX in recent hours has removed two source citations and User Calton removed one source citation within the Kamala Harris article with inadequate justification. All are Reliable Sources (WP:RS) and tend to support the contentions in the Kamala Harris Wikipedia article for which they are offered to prove.

First, User MrX today removed a citation to CalMatters as an "inappropriate source." See Revision History: "23:03, 1 August 2020‎ MrX talk contribs‎ 179,390 bytes -188‎ Removed inappropriate source" User MrX did not explain what was "inappropriate" about the source or why the source was "inappropriate." The text of the Kamala Harris article that the citation supported reads, "Twelve months later, longtime aide Larry Wallace resigned from Harris's Senate staff after The Sacramento Bee uncovered a $400,000 settlement paid by the State of California for Wallace's sexual harassment of his executive assistant while both worked in Harris's Attorney General office." I offered a CalMatters article by columnist Dan Walters. User MrX offered no explanation as to why this source is "inappropriate" when he/she removed it. Wikipedia editors who delete text should offer more justification than merely three words: "Removed inappropriate source." I assumed this cryptic but conclusory comment to mean that User MrX does not believe CalMatters to be a WP:RS, so I found a major California daily newspaper, ''San Jose Mercury News'' that published this Dan Walters column on or about December 12, 2018.

Second, User Calton removed the aforementioned ''San Jose Mercury News'' citation with the comment "At this point, I think you've made a topic ban necessary." See Revision History: "00:48, 2 August 2020‎ Calton talk contribs‎ 179,390 bytes -374‎ Undid revision 970722299 by Jab73 (talk) At this point, I think you've made a topic ban necessary." I do not understand this comment. One of the ways to justify Wikipedia article text is by citation to WP:RS so that other editors understand that there is "due weight" supporting the text. WP:WEIGHT. A fundamental principle on Wikipedia is "Assuming Good Faith" (WP:AGF). I don't think it's fair for User Calton to threaten sanctions against another editor just because that editor cites to a WP:RS (a mainstream daily newspaper) with which that other editor disagrees. Certainly under WP:AGF, a fellow editor should directly state what WP "crime" that other editor allegedly has committed before wielding some serious WP sanction (WP:TBAN).

Third, User MrX today removed a citation to the ''Washington Examiner'' as a "low quality source," without additional explanation. See Revision History: " 22:59, 1 August 2020‎ MrX talk contribs‎ 179,578 bytes -335‎ rm low quality source". I find no definition of "low quality source" in Wikipedia policies, but I assume that User MrX is alluding to WP:RS. I offered the citation to support WP:WEIGHT of the sentence about Harris's romantic relationship with then-California Assembly Speaker Willie Brown, who officially appointed her (his then-girlfriend) to two well-paid posts on state commissions. The citation that User MrX removed is: "... " In the article "Kamala Harris launched political career with $120K 'patronage' job from boyfriend Willie Brown" dated June 1, 2019 by Alana Goodman, the ''Washington Examiner'' apparently conducted original reporting on the work that Harris did on the California Medical Commission, interviewing other commissioners including Sandra Smoley. All of the interviews in the article apparently were "on the record," with quotations attributed to specific individuals. This article is a piece of original journalism by an "investigative political reporter," reporting original facts from primary sources. The article refers to "commission records obtained by the Washington Examiner." The article refers to these records: "Brown, in a letter to Harris, wrote that he was “pleased to appoint” her to the board, which oversaw the payment of insurance providers for state-subsidized MediCal recipients. “I am confident that your knowledge and experience will contribute significantly to the important work of the Commission,” he wrote." The article states that it attempted to hear Harris's side of the story: "Harris' campaign did not respond to requests to comment." The article itself is not a "low quality source" (whatever User MrX meant by that). It appears to satisfy the WP:NEWSORG policy: "Whether a specific news story is reliable for a fact or statement should be examined on a case-by-case basis." I believe that this article meets that standard. As for the ''Washington Examiner'' as a news organization, I believe that it qualifies for WP:RS. WP:NEWSORG : "News reporting from well-established news outlets is generally considered to be reliable for statements of fact (though even the most reputable reporting sometimes contains errors)."

I would like Users MrX and Calton to justify their removal of these sources, so that consensus can be reached about CalMatters, ''San Jose Mercury News'', and ''Washington Examiner'' and the proposed citations to them as WP:RS. When material in an article is denied the ability to cite sources for support, the next editor could more easily justify removal of article text as WP:RS, WP:NPOV and/or WP:RSUW. It's unfair to other editors to delete their contributions with cryptic, minimal, or no justification and threats of serious WP sanctions like WP:TBAN. Jab73 (talk) 05:57, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

References

Seriously, tl;dr I stand by what wrote in my edit summaries. WP:ONUS applies, as I know you have been advised many times. - MrX 🖋 11:47, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

A brief word: Im going to limit myself to the reliable source discussion the use of the ''Washington Examiner'' article. I going to make no comment on the edit itself. The ''Washington Examiner'' has a bias, like nearly every journalistic outlet. It's right wing. I don't think that makes it unreliable, but for a fuller analysis, you gotta know that going in. Just because the ''Washington Examiner'' is a reliable source does not make everything they publish citable. The article is a hit piece, full of rumor, gossip and innuendo. It really should not have come into play here. Rklahn (talk) 17:01, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Per the RS notice board, "There is no consensus on the reliability of the Washington Examiner, but there is consensus that it should not be used to substantiate exceptional claims. Almost all editors consider the Washington Examiner a partisan source and believe that statements from this publication should be attributed. The Washington Examiner publishes opinion columns, which should be handled with the appropriate guideline." ValarianB (talk) 19:42, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Jab73, I'm inclined to agree with you on Mercury News being an RS, but do you have any comment on how this particular article (which they note is an opinion piece, republished from CalMatters) should be evaluated under WP:RSOPINION? The Dan Walters article references the sacbee article which is already used as a citation, and is probably a better primary source. -- Norvy (talk) 22:24, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

• I intend to remove this opinion article cite from calmatters.org that was just reverted back into the article per WP:BLPSOURCES, unless someone beats me to it. - MrX 🖋 16:42, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

  MrX, I beat you to it. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:11, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

  Thank you Muboshgu. - MrX 🖋 17:30, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

• The Mercury News is a reliable source, but the content you're trying to include is a column, not an article, and is subject to WP:RSEDITORIAL. As to the Washington Examiner, here is what our entry at WP:RSP states: "There is no consensus on the reliability of the Washington Examiner, but there is consensus that it should not be used to substantiate exceptional claims. Almost all editors consider the Washington Examiner a partisan source and believe that statements from this publication should be attributed." Calidum 17:14, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Seconding Calidum's point on WP:RSP. When challenged by other editors, the Examiner is not a sufficient source, particularly on a WP:BLP. RedHotPear (talk) 16:20, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

• Please strive for brevity rather than lengthy walls of text. I agree with MrX and the others. The Washington Examiner = a mediocre source at best that should certainly be avoided for contentious claims, biographies of living persons, etc. The Dan Walters column (which was published in The Mercury News and republished in CalMatters) piece = equals an opinion piece (it is labeled "commentary"), so not really a usable source for factual statements in Wikipedia's own voice. Neutrality^talk 18:00, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

• Dan Walters is a respected analyst of California politics going back decades and I am surprised that there is no Wikipedia article about him. I have learned a lot by reading his work since the 1970s. But these days, he is a purveyor of opinions (which is fine) rather than a straight news reporter. Anything he says in his opinion columns needs to be attributed in the text as his opinion, not as a statement of facts. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 01:28, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Racial categorisation of Kamala Harris

How exactly can you describe someone with south-asian ancestry as 'African American'?

Does this term now mean 'black', 'dark skinned', or simply 'non-white'?

Please, this is disrespectful to people from the Indian sub-continent who have their own very distinct identities. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.0.237.39 (talk) 13:26, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

In the case of categorization of Sen. Harris, it's complex, and without getting too high handed, reflects upon the state of race in America. Yes, she is of South Asian ancestry, and also of African heritage, via Jamaica. But, and I think this is the important part, she identifies as African-American. And in the desegregation program in the Berkeley schools, was treated as if she was African American. But I understand this might be disrespectful to South Asians. but I think thats out of scope on this page. Drop me a note on my talk page, or an Echo on yours, and we can continue this further. Rklahn (talk) 14:27, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

As the African-American article notes, "African Americans (also referred to as Black Americans or Afro-Americans) are an ethnic group of Americans with total or partial ancestry from any of the black racial groups of Africa. The term African American generally denotes descendants of enslaved black people who are from the United States."

Many embrace being African American as a part of Black pride. Yet there is also the legacy of the one-drop rule.

IMHO, we have much to learn & grow around this in America.

Please see the following citation for Harris's own take on her ethnic background.

• Sullivan, Kevin (2019-02-02). "'I am who I am': Kamala Harris, daughter of Indian and Jamaican immigrants, defines herself simply as 'American'". Washington Post. Retrieved 2020-08-07.

Peaceray (talk) 14:46, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

It's not a problem at all. She is described as South Asian as well.—Naddruf (talk ~ contribs) 16:37, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

I think the question here is how she identifies, and in the Washington Post article she says '“My mother understood very well that she was raising two black daughters,” Harris writes in her recently published autobiography, “The Truths We Hold.” “She knew that her adopted homeland would see Maya and me as black girls, and she was determined to make sure we would grow into confident, proud black women.”' I think we need to refer to her as black throughout, with ancestry treated separately. —valereee (talk) 18:13, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

That seems like a reasonable premise. El_C 18:16, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree, a reasonable approach. Identity and ancestry are two different things. Behind OPs statement there may be an implication that we are being Amerocentric, and this is an encyclopedia, not an American encyclopedia. I agree. Rklahn (talk) 18:32, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm not involved enough to know what's going on here, but I just want to make sure that she is still described as Indian and Jamaican as well. Someone can be more than one ethnicity at the same time. —Naddruf (talk ~ contribs) 19:59, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Naddruf, it shouldn't be any issue at all to describe her both as a black woman and as a woman of Indian and Jamaican ethnicity/descent. —valereee (talk) 20:55, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

It is fine to include multiple descriptors here. But to be clear, "African-American" is the predominant identity of hers, and it is not problematic to use this. It is not an insult to South Asians to use "African-American" to describe her, even though it is certainly the case that other identity labels may also be justifiable. RedHotPear (talk) 03:38, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Another inane WP discussion. She identifies as African-American. End of story. Please don't rehearse tired old banalities about who is black who is African-American. Please also don't imply (if you are doing so) for the hundredth time the other pieties about whether the Middle-Passage is a sine qua non for being one or another, whether rum, cod, and slavery are the sine qua nons. By any definition, she is more African-American (in the traditional meaning of the word) than Barak Obama is. So if you are particularly hurting about unloading the monkeys of old-fashioned bias off your backs, go to the Barak Obama page and turn him into a Kenyan-Kansan president with no history of slavery. What is the matter with Wikipedians? If it is not old-fashioned racism, it is the kind that makes Indians (and I don't mean any WP editor) unload their insecurities about being equated with blacks (the Lord forbid). Obviously her South Asian Indian mother did not have those insecurities, and she does not have either. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:32, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler, do you have a source for her identifying as AA rather than as Black? —valereee (talk) 02:55, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Not Fowler, but I just am not sure how important the distinction is here. Some want "African American" to be restricted in meaning to "descendant of slaves," but Harris herself uses the terms interchangeably, and she clearly identifies with the African-American community. Reliable sources also frequently refer to her as the first "African American" to do/be X, etc. ([4], [5]) RedHotPear (talk) 03:29, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

References

Race is not a biological category but a social construct. In other words, society, not their pedigree, determines a person's race. TFD (talk) 05:39, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

I found TFD's statement very influential. Where I said ancestry, above, I meant ethnicity. I was less than precise, and regret the error. We should not stray away from Sen. Harris' self identification. Rklahn (talk) 06:55, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

I have partially reverted a recent edit which used misleading edit summary and unilaterally changed "Indian American" to "South Asian American". Per Google searches, reliable sources refer to her as "Indian American" at least 100 times more than "South Asian American" so we need to stick to common interpretation. To name a few, CNN[6], Washington Post[7], Politico[8], LA Times[9] and many other sources are very clear with using "Indian-American". SignificantPBD (talk) 16:54, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

See her own pages, both in the US Senate and her website, now cited in the lead. The usual Indian nationalism, or sub-nationalisms, have no value on Wikipedia. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:35, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

African-American is clearly the main identity of hers that this article should address. When it comes to other identities, why not avoid the "Indian-American" vs. "South Asian American" distinction together and go with "Asian-American," the broader category? This broader description seems to be echoed in RS coverage. RedHotPear (talk) 03:13, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

RedHotPear, "Asian" is a very broad term and unpopular compared to "Indian-American". This scholarly source from Harvard University Press also refers to her as "Indian American". We need to check what reliable sources say and the person in question. The sources noted above are of high quality and they leave no doubt.

Fowler, your personal bias "has no value on Wikipedia". Kamal Harris says "My Indian mother knew she was raising two black daughters .... But that’s not to the exclusion of who I am in terms of my Indian heritage".[10] When asked "You're African-American, but you're also Indian-American," Kamala Harris replied "Indeed", she also said that her African American and Indian heritage "are of equal weight in terms of who I am."[11] But you are just POV pushing and misrepresenting this source which makes no mention of "South Asian". I am afraid your poor comprehension skills violate WP:DE. You are also edit warring and ignoring that the page said "Indian American" until you modified it recently by providing misleading edit summaries. Read the top notice of this talk page and stop adding POV terms without gaining consensus. Riddhidev BISWAS (talk) 07:02, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Im really tempted to do a partial undo here, but Im going to let things develop a little more. I think we are clear on "African-American", less so on "Indian American" vs. "South Asian-American". The citations are, unfortunately, silent on how she refers to herself. So is https://kamalaharris.org/meet-kamala-harris/, which is in advocacy of her. https://www.harris.senate.gov/about leads you to "South Asian-American". This is a messy area that needs time for reflection, time is not of the essence here. Also, can we do a little more Assume good faith on the part of other editors? Rklahn (talk) 08:47, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Race, as has long been said, and wisely said again above by TFD and Rklahn, is a social construct. However, naming these social constructs is a fraught issue. For example, in more formal contexts "African American" is preferred to "Black." In a submission to the Supreme Court, a petitioner will most likely prefer "African American" to "Black" in the lead paragraph, but in whispering to their lawyer will most likely use "black." Similarly, "Indigenous American," or "Native American" is the more formal version of "Indian." Again, even today in informal contexts Native Americans refer to each other or their culture as "Indian." (The lawyer representing the Muscogee Nation in the recent US Supreme Court decision on Oklahoma being half Native American land says in a Youtube video, "I'm delighted to be back in Indian country.") The reason for the two levels of reference is that the formal name is usually a mouthful. So, the same person will be found using both terms be they "African American" (formal) or "Black" (informal), "Native American" (formal) or "Indian" (informal).

Also, the modern convention is to refer to ethnicities by the broad regional categories of ancestry, not by the names of the modern nations to which ancestral link might be determined. The broad regions are: Latin America (i.e. regions of the Americas in which the Romance languages (Spanish, Portuguese, and French) are spoken)), Europe, Africa, and Asia (which is usually split into West Asia, South Asia, Southeast Asia, and East Asia), and perhaps Australasia. The reason for this is that the ethnicities were established long before the modern nations took shape. So, South Asia is preferred to India (not to mention the additional confusion that might result from the usage referred to above).

So, summing up, Kamala Harris's father was born in Jamaica, and his ancestry is African (i.e. he is not the odd Jamaican White); her mother was born in the British Indian Empire (which then comprised present-day India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh) and her ancestry is South Asian. It is unimportant that the British Raj had decolonized by the time she came to the US, and that she most likely arrived with a passport of the Republic of India; her ethnicity is still South Asian for the reasons given above. Furthermore, KH's self-identification is African-American or Black. She has said very poignantly, "I was born Black and I will die Black." So, in our description there will be an order: "African American" first, and "South Asian American" second, but the latter only if needed. I should warn that if she does become Biden's choice of VP, this page will receive far more attention by editors promoting the various POVs about race and gender that have traditionally riven both American and South Asian societies. Various POVs will both disown her and claim her for their own. We have to be especially careful about preserving the NPOV descriptions. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:26, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

PS For the editors who might be thinking that I've come here with a naive or ignorant view of India, let me add (though there should normally be no reason for this) that I am the primary author of the FA India. I am well-versed in the nationalism (not to mention sub-nationalism, e.g. "Gujarati," "Tamil" or "Bengali") that India-POV editors attempt to promote in many things related to South Asia. See for example the pages Pilaf or Shalwar kameez, where "South Asia" is now established, but a year ago was subject to constant edit-warring by editors wanting to change "South Asia" to "India." Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:07, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Fowler, I do not think you are naive or ignorant at all. I have also seen nationalist POV-pushing of the type you describe on issues related to India, and it is something to be watchful for, though I cannot definitively say that I already identify it on this talk page. I completely agree with you when you say that "African American" should come first, and when warranted, other identities should follow. Riddhidev BISWAS, it is absolutely not the case that the balance of reliable sources indicates that her "Indian-American" identity is equally notable. RedHotPear (talk) 14:22, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

I see that someone, probably the editor you mention, has reinstated "Indian American." I would submit that the term "Indian American" if it is to be used at all should be applied to people born in India who have become naturalized citizens of the United States. Otherwise, for ethnicity, as I've already stated above, the broad category is "South Asia." ("Asian American" would be confusing because in the US it has traditionally been applied to East Asian Americans (i.e. those with Chinese or Japanese ancestry). There is good reason that all the former "India studies," "Indian studies," or "Indology" academic departments around the world have changed their names to "South Asian Studies." See Harvard, Berkeley, Yale, University of Chicago, Princeton, Cambridge, Oxford, ... it is a long, long, list. Anyway, I am on vacation; this is all the time I have. I've laid out my argument. I think the usage "South Asian American" should be preferred to "Indian American" for the reasons that I have given at length. Thanks everyone. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:44, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

That seems off-topic, but I would add that I don't see anybody ever changed "Indian" to "South Asian" on this article except you. So I don't think that will be the case.

Rklahn, the two interviews of Kamala Harris[12][13] linked above are absolutely clear about her self-identification as "Indian-American". TFD was also referring to the same Washington Post interview. I think we must abide by the status quo here. SignificantPBD (talk) 16:13, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

For heaven's sakes, her own US Senate Website says, "South Asian American." Your citations are incorrect. In neither of those two articles (the LA Times and the Washington Post) does she herself use the expression "Indian American." Moreover, in her book, The Truths We Hold, she does not once use the expression "Indian American." However she does use "South Asian:"

My mother, grandparents, aunts, and uncle instilled us with pride in our South Asian roots.

Note: here we have a new editor, registered in May 2020, with 102 edits, who is attempting to lay down the law. It doesn't matter that I'm the primary author of India, British Raj, Company rule in India, British India, Partition of India, Indian mathematics, Indus Valley Civilisation (which was most likely a Dravidian civilization) ... it is a long list, which includes the FA Political history of Mysore and Coorg (1565–1760), a region adjacent to the Dravidian-speaking region from which where KH's mother hails. All this experience and record is of no value in Wikipedia discussions. Go figure. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:28, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Im afraid I disagree about the conclusion here. The LA Times article only comes close when it quotes Sen. Harris saying "But that’s not to the exclusion of who I am in terms of my Indian heritage." Two points: 1) Heritage is not identity. 2) The subtext about this article is race, and has already been said, thats a social construct, not identity either. I find this particular LA Times article dubious as a source on identity. The Post article goes further in this regard. In the headline "Kamala Harris, daughter of Indian and Jamaican immigrants, defines herself simply as ‘American’" she goes as far as to decline Indian identify. Now, the direction this should go is clear to me: "South Asian American". Its the only thing Ive seen where she identifies her identity, from her own US Senate Website. I really tried to see both sides here, but am now in a position where I can draw the "South Asian American" conclusion. Rklahn (talk) 21:27, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

@RedHotPear: I am agreeable for "South Asian American" to be changed to "Asian and Pacific American" but she will then be the eighth Asian and Pacific American Senator (jointly eighth with Tammy Duckworth of Illinois who also assumed office in January 2017). Please see the usage in this citation, which is being cited for "Indian American" in this edit! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:18, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

We need to use terminology that conveys meaning to readers. Presumably readers have heard of Indian, but they may not be familiar with terms such as Asian Pacific and South Asian. Also, those terms may have different meanings depending on the user, and different terms may be used in different countries. For example, in the UK the term Asian is used to describe India and its neighbors, while in the U.S. it is used to describe China and its neighbors. TFD (talk) 21:54, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

For a large number of readers in the US, Indian = Native American; it does most certainly for Native Americans themselves in everyday use. "Asian" in the US and UK respectively has the meaning of the region from which Asian immigrants first appeared on the shores of those countries. National or sub-national jargon, however, is not a criterion for encyclopedicity. Precision is in the first description in a lead paragraph, and "South Asian" is precise; later, in the main body, it can be elucidated with "Indian," particularized with "South Indian," or even more with "Tamil." "South Asian" is unambiguous and is the NPOV usage worldwide now, used in scholarly writing and by international organizations. It is used by the California Department of Justice in its page on their former Attorney General Kamala Harris. When I have some time I will make a list of its use in the formal register by various sources. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:33, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

PS Another point, when we use the adjective "first," we want to apply it to the largest ambit of its use. South Asia = India + Pakistan + Bangladesh + Nepal + Bhutan + Afghanistan + Sri Lanka + the Maldives is quite a bit larger than India. She is the first South Asian, not just the first person of Indian, South Indian or Tamil ethnic ancestry in those offices. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:41, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

PPS Although I had used the link before I was reverted, it bears mentioning here on the talk page that South Asian American, which pipes to its plural, does exist on Wikipedia, and does a good job of explaining the term. Please also read both paragraphs of the section: Indian_Americans#Terminology about the pitfalls of that term's use. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:59, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Just a quick note that I found Fowler's "PS" point to be quite a good one. I encourage others to consider it as well. RedHotPear (talk) 14:47, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

@Peaceray:, @The Four Deuces:, @Rklahn:, @Riddhidev BISWAS:, @SignificantPBD:, @RedHotPear:, @Valereee:, @Naddruf:, also pinging admins with South Asia experience @El C: and @RegentsPark: I will be changing Indian American in the lead paragraph to South Asian American for a variety of reasons (all offered above), but mostly for the fact of term "Indian American" being both ambiguous and informal (best explained in Indian_Americans#Terminology). Her own senate website (see above), as well as the California Department of Justice site (also see above) about her tenure as their 32nd AG, use "South Asian American" only. If Joe Biden does choose her to be his running mate, this page will attract even more attention; it is best to choose the more precise terminology now. More precisely, I will be changing the sentence:

A member of the Democratic Party, Harris is the second African American woman and the first Indian American to serve in the United States Senate., ( which is problematic also because the first citation makes no mention of "Second African American woman," senator only of "first African-American to represent California in the Senate" and the second talks about Asian and Pacific Islands Americans (and as I've remarked before she is the eighth API-American senator (jointly with Tammy Duckworth)), but makes no mention of Indian-Americans.)

to

A member of the Democratic Party, Harris is the second African American woman and the first South Asian American to serve in the United States Senate.

Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:34, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I do not feel very strongly, but your change seems fine. You make a good case that "Indian American," while popularly used, may be informal and imprecise in this situation. RedHotPear (talk) 14:42, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I think either of these are good, but I agree that it is better to say the "first South Asian American" in the lead. South Asian American is a broader category than Indian American. Otherwise it would be plausible that there could have already been a Pakistani American or Bangladeshi American, etc. in Congress.—Naddruf (talk ~ contribs) 16:13, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I second this. RedHotPear (talk) 17:20, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I am on board with this. I hope that others see this as the consensus. Also, thank you Fowler&fowler for the ping. Rklahn (talk) 19:29, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

@RedHotPear, Rklahn, and The Four Deuces: Contrary to Fowler&fowler's blatant misrepresentation of Kamala Harris' book "Moreover, in her book, The Truths We Hold, she does not once use the expression "Indian" needs to be ignored since the actual quote of Kamala Harris is:

My mother, grandparents, aunts, and uncle instilled us with pride in our South Asian roots. Our classical Indian names harked back to our heritage, and we were raised with a strong awareness of and appreciation for Indian culture.[14]

This source does not qualify for "South Asian American" over "Indian American" and she has mentioned "Indian" two times right there. She also mentions her husband Douglas Emhoff in her book and writes:

Doug and I were married on Friday, August 22, 2014, in an intimate ceremony with the people we loved. Maya officiated; Meena read from Maya Angelou. In keeping with our respective Indian and Jewish heritage, I put a flower garland around Doug's neck..."[15]

She is very clear about her "Indian" heritage, so why we shouldn't be? @Fowler, you must stop edit warring and stop bragging about your contributions on other off-topic articles. This edit warring without gaining WP:CON, continuous blugeoning and canvassing isn't going to help you in denying these two interviews of Kamala Harris[16][17] which are absolutely clear about her self-identification as "Indian-American". Reliable sources refer to her as "Indian American" more than hundreds of times than "South Asian American". Unless we are seriously questioning the reliability of CNN[18], Washington Post[19], Politico[20], LA Times[21] US News,[22] ABC News,[23] The Hill,[24] and thousands of other WP:RS, which also identify her as "Indian American" but not "South Asian American", I clearly don't see a single reason to pick "South Asian" (which can also mean Pakistani, Afghanistani, Bangladeshi) than more specific and much more common term "Indian". There is no need for this page to be different than the rest of the Wikipedia or the world. SignificantPBD (talk) 17:10, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

What concerns me is that most readers may not know what South Asia refers to. I had to look it up, although I was aware of India. Does it include Saudi Arabia and Vietnam for example. If you use the term, the text should provide an explanation. For example, she is the "first South Asian American" (Asian American includes India and neighboring countries)." TFD (talk) 17:33, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Why? We can assume people will click on links; that's the whole point of links. And you don't even have to click; when I look at this article without logging in, if I hover over the words South Asian American, I get a popup that tells me where they are from. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 18:00, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree. Of all the terms used on Wikipedia that are not explicitly explained, South Asia hardly stands out as obscure. Indeed, much of its meaning is reflected in its words; the link should be sufficient. RedHotPear (talk) 19:35, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

NYT on Harris and police miscounduct

Here's the New York Times story about Harris' record on police misconduct:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/09/us/politics/kamala-harris-policing.html

‘Top Cop’ Kamala Harris’s Record of Policing the Police

By Danny Hakim, Stephanie Saul and Richard A. Oppel Jr.

New York Times

Aug. 9, 2020

According to the New York Times, Harris "struggled to reconcile her calls for reform with her record on these same issues during a long career in law enforcement...."

Since becoming California’s attorney general in 2011, she had largely avoided intervening in cases involving killings by the police. Protesters in Oakland distributed fliers saying: “Tell California Attorney General Kamala Harris to prosecute killer cops! It’s her job!”

After the 2014 killing of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo., she was asked to investigate a series of police shootings in San Francisco, where she had previously been district attorney. She said it was not her job.

Critics said she was "taking cautious, incremental action on criminal justice and, more often than not, yielding to the status quo."

In 2009, she wrote that she would like to see more police officers on the street. After the George Floyd killing, she said that the idea that putting more police on the street is "just wrong."

In 2007, she did not support legislation granting public access to disciplinary hearings. Anaheim mayor Tom Tait said that in July 2012 after an unarmed 25-year-old, Manuel Diaz, was fatally shot in the back by the police, there were hundreds of protesters at City Hall. He asked Harris to conduct an outside investigation, and she refused.

In 2015, Harris refused to endorse AB-86, which would have required her office to appoint special prosecutors to examine fatal police shootings.

--Nbauman (talk) 18:04, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

What improvements are you recommending for the article? --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 15:00, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I would revise the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamala_Harris#Law_enforcement_accountability section, replacing the trivial details with a summary of the substantive issues, which the NYT story does a good job of outlining.

For example, I would cut the discussion of "Principled Policing: Procedural Justice and Implicit Bias," because there have been many programs like this, and when they have been studied, they don't affect meaningful outcomes -- specifically unnecessary civilian deaths, civilian complaints, and abuses. The only evaluation they have is subjective evaluations by participants [25] The KQED stories cited are just official statements, with no critics or evaluation. What do WP:RSs say about the program?

I would search the Washington Post, since they have good coverage of criminology, especially by Radley Balko.

There's too much detail about Rackauckas, etc., and it should be shorted to focus on Harris' role.

It should also address for example whether WP:RSs say that Harris' statistics effort was effective or ineffective. ProPublica tried to collect police statistics around the country, and found that they were inadequate. Is this true of California?

Generally, the NYT story is useful because it shows you how to write about police misconduct. If I were an editor assigning a writer to do a story about Kamela Harris and police misconduct, I would hand them this story and say, "Use this as a model."

I am generally reluctant to work on Wikipedia pages about popular figures, because there are usually editors who have strong feelings, and have effectively owned the pages. I'd rather find out first whether it's possible to to edit the Wikipedia page without an edit war. I don't feel like spending an afternoon writing a balanced, objective WP:NPOV story only to have an editor revert everything and replace it with the original press releases. --Nbauman (talk) 18:30, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Well, also, we're not a newspaper. What the NYT finds appropriate for an article isn't necessarily what Wikipedia finds appropriate for an article. And if you want to make large changes, run them by the talk page first -- especially if they're likely to be contentious, as you know these will be. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 19:46, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

That's what I did, run them through the talk page.

Wikipedia isn't a newspaper, but since our criterion for including content is WP:RS, and most newspapers are WP:RS, we will have a tendency to follow the judgment of newspapers in most current events. --Nbauman (talk) 23:11, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Intended Revision: Make criticims cited in article more faithful to source

Under Anti-Truancy efforts, the following is stated referencing a Huffington Post article:

"Critics charged [...] that Harris's rhetoric legitimized the notion that parents were responsible for their children's education."

The following can be found in the source:

"But to critics, the language Harris used to encourage a truancy crackdown and the system she reinvigorated were cementing the idea that parents always were the ultimate source of the problem."

I don't think that the source is faithfully represented by the current wording in the article which appears polemic/sarcastic. Neither is this criticism particularly central to the argument made in the source which is best summarized by the following two paragraphs:

"Harris has since replaced her punitive stance with the message that parents of truant children need help, not scare tactics. It’s a shift that happened roughly in step with voters’ waning tolerance for using the criminal justice system to address complicated social problems and Harris’ own preparations to seek higher office. In the memoir she released shortly before announcing her candidacy for president, Harris described her work on truancy as “trying to support parents, not punish them.”

[...]

Yet the penalties she once championed for truancy and the way she originally thought about the issue are foundational to how California handles truancy today. Peoples’ arrest wasn’t a freak occurrence ― it was the inevitable outcome of Harris’ campaign to fuse the problem of truancy with the apparatus of law enforcement. And Peoples is far from an outlier. There are still hundreds of families across California entering the criminal justice system under the aegis of Harris’ law."

Therefore I intend to replace this half-sentence by a more faithful version and to add an additional criticism that is close to the source's main argument:

"Critics charged [...] that Harris's rhetoric one-sidedly identified parents as the sole root of the problem and that a punitive, criminal justice based approach is unsuitable to address a complex social issue like truancy. They charge that she has since attempted to reframe her original views on the issue as supportive of parents out of political expedience."

Rappatoni (talk) 10:56, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree with your proposed replacement. It's more faithful to the source. --Nbauman (talk) 16:42, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Twitter suggests that her first name is pronounced "Comma-La" not "Camel-Ah". Have we got it wrong here? Timrollpickering (talk) 20:25, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2020

STRONGLY SUGGEST REMOVING THE POTENTIAL VP'S SIGNATURE FROM THE WEBSITE. 199.168.243.204 (talk) 20:36, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2020

Change all African-American references to Indian (India) and Jamaican. 2601:1C0:CF00:9060:F126:A443:7763:A621 (talk) 20:38, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2020

Kamala Harris is not African American as this states. Her mother is Indian and her father Jamaican. 2603:300A:2202:A500:858D:F647:E38B:BFDA (talk) 20:40, 11 August 2020 (UTC)