User talk:Jimbo Wales

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Does running for office confer automatic notability for an article?

I have seen a recent increase in bio articles about candidates running for office, especially now that many states have wrapped up their primaries, or presumptive nominees are locking up their chances ahead of time. Is it standard practice that someone whose article would never have been created, let alone pass an AfD, be allowed to stay based only on the fact that they are running for an office? And what happens if that person loses? At what point do we say that having run for a congressional district in rural Utah in 2012 is not a notable enough reason to be in Wikipedia? (the year 2020...2040... when the person dies?...)97.88.87.68 (talk) 17:49, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

See WP:POLITICIAN. --Tango (talk) 18:09, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Any such articles created should be redirected to the article for the district election, e.g. Kara Anastasio currently redirects to Ohio's 7th congressional district#Election results because she has done nothing to satisfy the general notability guide. Tarc (talk) 18:45, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

But let's be clear on what WP:POLITICIAN actually says on the subject: Just being an elected local official, or an unelected candidate for political office, does not guarantee notability, although such people can still be notable if they meet the primary notability criterion of "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject of the article". So a candidate who has not held a significant office previously may be notable anyway, and therefore merit their own article. Some people like to go around before elections blanking and redirecting almost any "candidate" article they can find for deletion; sometimes its warranted, sometimes its not. Neutron (talk) 22:54, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Possible, but uncommon. When I have sifted through these sorts of articles on occasion, I've seen a few candidates who were notable for, say, being a noted leader in an industry, or a prominent and covered business owner. Tarc (talk) 23:12, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it is too uncommon, consider Jimmy McMillan of the Rent Is Too Damn High Party. He is only notable for running for office. When it comes to candidates, they should be judged based on GNG. Some may be notable only for running. The important aspect is making sure the coverage isn't trivial. Many candidates will get a lot of trivial mentions, fewer will get in depth coverage. Ryan Vesey 23:45, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

The big problem is that we get coverage of somebody running against an incumbent who is only being covered because they are a candidate; and the only coverage of them is not on their own merits as notable persons, but rather due to their status as candidates or nominees. A twenty-year-old living in an upstairs apartment does not become notable just because he filed for and received a major party nomination to take on an incumbent: the notability if any attaches to the race, not the nominee(s), if they would not otherwise meet WP:GNG - it's kinda like WP:BLP1E that way. --Orange Mike | Talk 20:01, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

To summarize the situation: An incumbent has an article. The election has an article. A challenger is running, but if he hasn't held past elective office his notability is questioned. His article is deleted. FEC filings, Open Secrets, On the Issues, Project Vote Smart all provide information on federal candidates. Even if that material for the challenger is merged into the election article, let alone his background, it is deleted for Bias and Undue Weight as the incumbent has that material in his own article, not the election article. I don't know why everyone pretends this is a new problem when this game is played every single election year, even in elections which are polled as being close. A lot of voters would like to get information on politicians from Wikipedia, and are surprised by the official view (consensus of Admins) that who will represent them is too trivial to cover beyond the official campaign site. This is the incumbent advantage. Even Bill Foster, who had founded a major cimpany with his brother and won a Nobel Prize In science, was considered unnotable and had his article deleted countless times the first time he ran. Don't pretend this is unbiased. ~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.78.81.245 (talk) 16:20, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

If the person who is a candidate won a Nobel Prize, then they meet the notability requirements outside of the political sphere - if it's provable, then it should be good, IMHO dangerouspanda 16:26, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Any voters coming to the Wikipedia to find information on a candidate are about as intelligent as those who once said they voted for Jimmy Carter because he had a nice smile. The "anyone can edit" model does not lend itself well to creating neutral political articles. Tarc (talk) 16:40, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

That's not true, but thank you for sharing. As I wrote, "FEC filings, Open Secrets, On the Issues, Project Vote Smart all provide information on federal candidates." You find those biased? Perhaps you worked on the Eric Hovde article, which ignored those sources as well? Or do Tea Party candidates get special dispensation from including facts? Or being notable? Your bullying snarkiness, particularly about Democrats, may amuse some and discourage others, but this is a discussion of notability, and the double standard being applied. Not your opinion of Jimmy Carter supporters. This is 2012. I looked at that Hovde article after he lost the primary this week. It was written two months ago, never had serious souces, and its 'facts' were fluff from his campaign website. Glittering generalities with no non-partisan information. I would like to see decent articles about every candidate for federal office who has some actual support. You would prefer to try to derail the conversation. Tell me. Does your bullying, insulting and tantrum-throwing usually have the desired effect of ending discussions? I only ask because you do it so often you must believe it works. How many editors have you driven off? 184.78.81.245 (talk) 13:25, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Baseless complaining aside....I find such coverage (FEC filings, etc...) to be routine and not a basis for establishing notability. A person has to have done something prior to becoming a candidate in order to justify an article. To have held another elected position, be a notable businessman or received some sort of coverage in reliable sources. There are indeed cases though where just being a candidate for office itself attracts reliable source coverage, such as Jean Carnahan. Tarc (talk) 14:08, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I have redirected the Hovde article to United States Senate election in Wisconsin, 2012. If that does not stick, it will be taken to AfD. Tarc (talk) 14:12, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Again, you pretend to miss the point. Hovde lost, so who would argue against deletion at this point? You're closing the barn door after the horse has left the building. A merge and redirect is appropriate, with its history kept as an example for what future articles should NOT be. This was a very close primary election. A good article would have helped readers. This was a bad article, despite the 'help' of various Wikipedians after it was deleted and restored two months ago. Those people were well aware of what other politician articles include, but they chose to meet the letter not the spirit of notability and references. It was, and remained, a campaign brochure. I did NOT present FEC filings etc as proof of notability. My point was that if an article exists for a candidate, certainly those should be included. If a separate article does not exist, then that information should be in the election article and not deleted as Undue Weight and Bias. Would you like me to repost my first comment with bolding? I do find notability to be inherent in a candidate running for federal office with real support. So do many other people, including many of those on the Project over the years. You do not. Fine. Make that point and stop making strawman arguments, claiming I'm saying something I'm not. I'm not doing 'baseless complaining', I am pointing out facts. You choose to whinge and make excuses and go off topic and resort to name-calling. That's not what a serious Wikipedian does. My comments deserve despect and consideration. Your attitude is a serious problem, whether or not you realize it. 184.78.81.245 (talk) 17:52, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you believe "notability to be inherent in a candidate running for federal office with real support", but unfortunately that runs counter to the consensus regarding politician notability at this time. Non-notable politicians should not have any info on their campaign in any Wikipedia article, either a standalone bio or at the target of the candidate name's redirect. Anything else? Tarc (talk) 18:36, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

...or at the target of the candidate name's redirect. It is your opinion, not the consensus, but thank you for finally providing your view. I'm sure it will come as a great surprise to many that even in a close election, no mention may be made of one of the candidates, presumably including the campaign website. 184.78.81.245 (talk) 19:10, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Simply running for office is not sufficient for an article, as per consensus on the project. Candidate listings, tiny local newspapers, blogs, and the candidate website are NOT sufficient to add additional notability. If the person does have additional notability - such as a Nobel Prize - then as long as it's provable via 3rd party reliable sources then they may have deserved an article (and still might). An absence or presence of an encyclopedia article (that is WP:NOTNEWS) would not have had an effect on an election - anyone who thinks it would does not understand the purpose of an encyclopedia, or might be thinking promotion is somehow permitted dangerouspanda 19:07, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for sharing, but that is NOT the issue being addressed. Tarc did address it, and I replied. 184.78.81.245 (talk) <s@pan style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding undated comment added 19:14, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Right, and the above answers the question - and pretty much should have stopped it further. You're making it sound like Wikipedia is at fault for not having an article, and therefore someone lost. The policy is clear, and has been explained - there should be no further need for discussion here. If you wish to try and change the policy, that can be discussed elsewhere. dangerouspanda 19:28, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

The statement by Tarc was that an election article should ignore certain candidates, even in a close election, is both risible and unencyclopedic. There are articles about every federal election in every U.S. state, as has been the custom for years, so your comment doesn't make sense. The election article is the target of the candidate name's redirect. That's what Tarc said. You've never contributed to this Project, have you? Reporting a close election as if it were uncontested would be misleading, yet both of you are claiming that's what Wikipedia should do. All right. Any more Wikipedians with thoughts on this? 184.78.81.245 (talk) 23:10, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

You're taking my statement to a rather ludicrous extreme. What I feel the article should look like is pretty much like United States Senate election in Wisconsin, 2012 looks like at the present, just a straight-forward who's who about the election and participants. No great laundry lists of what the candidates positions are on every topic under the sun, their oppoent's reactions, and the counter-reactions. Tarc (talk) 02:15, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

How is that "a rather ludicrous extreme"? In that election article Hovde's name is listed. His generic occupation of 'businessman' is listed. His campaign website is listed. Polling results, forecasts and rankings are included for the race in great detail, but nothing about campaign contributions, issue positions, personal or business background relevant to office, debates, interviews or newspaper coverage. No links to FEC, Follow the Money, Project Vote Smart, On the Issues, or C-Span. It's not that no one has bothered to add the, but that you claim the 'consensus' is that they are not and will not be permitted. (There is a link to Open Secrets, but I added that recently so it isn't relevant.) Election articles in previous years always included campaign finance information, at least Open Secrets. The current articles clearly used the earlier ones as a base, yet all that has been 'cleansed' as unimportant and not relevant? Unlike forecasts, rankings and poll results? The Tommy Thompson and Tammy Baldwin articles have all that and much more about their political lives, with little else. Presumably that's what readers are interested in, and what is considered important, relevant and notable about them. I see a troubling double standard. Neither of your names appears on the Admin list, yet you claim to speak with great knowledge and authority. You are absolutely adamant that nothing about candidates, even in very close elections, appear anywhere, in any article, in Wikipedia unless they have previously held a state or federal office and alreay have an article on that basis. You are willing to now make an exception for a Nobel Prize winner. Pokemen characters, TV serial episodes, TV sitcom characters (as opposed to the actors) are all considered notable, worthy of a separate article, yet you claim there is a 'consensus' that a candidate in serious contention for U.S. federal office is not only unworthy of an article, but no mention in the election article beyond name, occupation and campaign website. No one else has weighed in on this, including Jimmy. Are any of those facts in dispute? 184.78.81.245 (talk) 13:03, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

As the person who started this thread let me state my opinion. No candidate for an office should have an article who otherwise would not have an article. With the possible exception of a candidate for President/Vice President from one of the two major parties (or to make it global, any major party of a country with a real chance of electability), just to make for the possibility that one day a relatively unknown were to make it, it's happened in America's past, though with the depth of Wikipedia covering every House candidate and war hero this is unlikely that a Presidential or VP candidate would be unknown to the Wikipedia, whereas in the past a candidate may have been unknown to the leading encyclopedias of the age (we've had some very obscure VPs). I agree with Panda and Tarc on how to structure an article on an election, though the way I interpret NOTNEWS, I really think all election articles should be held off on until after the election, IMHO. I disagree with Tarc's assertion that people who use WP for learning about candidates are not intelligent voters, well I agree that they arent intelligent, but unfortunately a vast majority of our voters ARENT intelligent! No polling I can find has been done, but I'm sure more than we would like are coming to Wikipedia when they see someone's name they dont know, and using this as a place to find information. Look at the fact that candidates are now using Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, Google+, Blogger, and USA Today had an article a week or two ago about candidates using Pinterest even! Is using Wikipedia to frame their views any different from their point of view than using any form of social media?97.88.87.68 (talk) 16:01, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for rejoining the conversation. I am surprised you consider the FEC, Follow the Money, Project Vote Smart, On the Issues and C-Span to be the equivalent of Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, Google+ and Blogger. Is that only true for election articles, or are you suggesting C-SPAN be removed as a reliable reference in all Wikipedia articles? How about the FEC and other government sources? Should they too be removed as reliable references? I've never heard this suggestion of yours that only campaign websites should be included for politicians. Quite thought-provoking. 184.78.81.245 (talk) 16:34, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Kara Anastasio isn't notable. Just because in three minutes on Google I find out she's wife of John Hagelin doesn't count (not even worth a redirect, apparently). The Washington Post doesn't count, and it probably risks much even to mention lesser sources. No, there's nothing to be done for this. If you want to do something people here will respect and admire you for, follow Peter Cohen's example and write up a bunch of blather about how Wikipedia's purpose is to provide biased campaign coverage and try to get their tax exemption revoked. Meanwhile, do like everyone else and use Google - the top ten hits give you a more thorough, less biased view of the subject than Wikipedia ever will. Because Google doesn't believe in "ethics". Wnt (talk) 05:59, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. She does not technically fall into the "notable for one event only" category, as she was the Democratic nominee twice. Was that your point? Regardless, she should have redirects to the appropriate election articles. It seems you are taking the view of Tarc and others that if a person isn't notable enough for her own article, then only her name, occupations and campaign website should be allowed to be included in the election article. Perhaps her pre-election poll results also, but that's the limit. Is that correct? Also, you're wrong about Google. I recently googled for a candidate name and the first 14 references were her campaign website and 13 subsections of it. Not the old all-in-one-area display, but 14 SEPARATE listings. I have yet to find the relevant FEC, Follow the Money, Project Vote Smart, On the Issues and C-Span links in the top ten, and often not on the top 100 or more. Why do you consider those biased and not 'thorough' sources? The results depend on the candidate, of course. 184.78.81.245 (talk) 16:34, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, sarcasm. A shame it isn't obvious... Wnt (talk) 14:00, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Website is in the black list of Wikipedia: B E A T L E S. R U

Website is in the black list of Wikipedia: B E A T L E S. R U. But Wikipedia uses materials of the club - illegally (article: The Beatles - in Russian Wikipedia). Wikipedia does not contain the permission. Club does not contain the Creative Commons license. Club got terrible moral damage (and not only moral). Thus, Wikipedia is offender. Report was made already for: http://www.iprcenter.gov/referral (IPR Center). Wikipedia must to wait big troubles (if will continue to violate copyright). Warning. The only one. Kind regards. - 95.29.75.169 (talk) 20:55, 18 August 2012 (UTC).

Would you mind restating that a little more clearly? AutomaticStrikeout 21:26, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

The user is alleging that the Russian-language Wikipedia's article on the Beatles contains material copyrighted by the Beatles.ru website, and making legal threats to the effect that the offending material should be removed or Wikipedia will be sued. Someone should look into it. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 22:11, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

I left a note in the talk page of the article. If the article really contains materials from beatlesDOTry, then it has to be attributed to that website, even if the website is in the spam blacklist. You can attribute the website using <nowiki>http:// beatles . ru</nowiki> --Enric Naval (talk) 22:22, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

ru.wp uses beatles.ru as a source (attributed) for information about the recording of the song "Free As A Bird". The source looks like a copyvio (so I guess ru.wp probably shouldn't link to it - but spam blacklist doesn't apply there). The ru.wp article doesn't lift this material or "close paraphrase" it, although it includes a quote which is on the long side and the amount of material based on the source (a 1990s interview with the surviving Beatles) is quite a lot (3 paras). beatles.ru is also in the external links, but there doesn't seem to be any other material in the article related to it. Formerip (talk) 22:28, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Shouldn't this be being discussed on the Russian wiki? AutomaticStrikeout 22:48, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

• This IP is ban-evading troll and spammer, banned in enwiki and ruwiki - Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Crazy1980/Archive, Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/John Torn/Archive, see also this discussion for example. So it's highly recommended Wikipedia:Do not feed the trolls. OneLittleMouse (talk) 04:32, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

• Somebody forgot that the DMCA gives the only one chance (this chance is not used here as we see). Besides, range of IP addresses may contain a large number of addresses inside of self. Even when someone is sockpuppet - it is does not mean that violation of copyright must be continued. The such violations are clearly displayed:

1) Fan club actually does not contain of any license (but sign of copyright is there).

2) When website is located in the black list - is not happiness for the owners (shame and damage for reputation): but reason to forbid the usage of its materials (relevant measure for defence). Only stupid human can think something other.

3) In the history (of the article about The Beatles) we can find trails of the terrible war (not exist proofs that members of this war are not the owners of the club). This fact gives great grounds think, that it was the violation of copyright.

4) Notice about violation is on the page of main human in the wiki system (any disclaimer not will in focus of attention).

5) OneLittleMouse is poor man and his legendary site confirms this fact.

6) Please show me the permission to use materials of the fan club. - 95.29.86.242 (talk) 22:00, 19 August 2012 (UTC).

Merchandise

Jimbo, a question for you (and your many userpage-stalkers :D):

We may not advertise on Wikipedia, but do we get money for the project through merchandise? I was just thinking to myself that I would gladly buy a put-it-together wikipedia logo globe (similar to these)... and that got me thinking... why don't we design some Wiki-merchandise and get it out there into the world, to get some great money for the project, and also increase awareness of it. We can hold various wiki-functions etc. for the general public and therefore give our brand more awareness in the global market. Since we're in the process of redesigning the main page (FWIW IMHO we should redesign the layout of the pages as well - those discussions on the talk pages have always been a real b**** to follow), this seems like an awesome time to think about this.--Coin945 (talk) 08:32, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

See Meta:Fundraising ideas. As I understand, at one point all the merchandising was being done through Cafe Press, but now www.cafepress.com/wikipedia just points to their main page (and is officially blacklisted link now), and searching "Wikipedia" there gets you mostly (but not entirely) Assange/Wikileaks related items. Wnt (talk) 13:58, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

[1]. Doc talk 17:01, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Does anyone even know that site exists? I certainly didnt.--Coin945 (talk) 17:40, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

I noticed it just the other day - look to your left where "Main Page", "Contents", etc. are. It's at the bottom. Doc talk 17:42, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Any attempt to standardize "facts" between articles? Some articles conflict with each other.

The particular case that brings me this question is History of China has a gif map that rotates through the political boundaries of China and at the end it skips from the Qing to the Present, both of which had political control over Tibet, and yet in the Tibet article (and in any reliable source) in between that period Tibet, along with several other parts of China, were independent. The map skips over an entire period of time in which China lost control of minority lands and later conquered them by military force.

The question itself is what mechanism does Wikipedia have to keep all the articles consistent between each other, and to keep articles that may have large numbers of fans or adherents or other loyalists who may overhelm the talk page and hinder consensus to neutrality. I see this especially with Chinese history articles, where those who otherwise would be opposing the current PRC find themselves in support of propaganda that puts Chinese history in a superior light. Countries that are smaller and less influential, or have large anti-whatever group have the opposite problem, and don't have the ability to portray their history in the same light (example- Imagine if Israel portrayed the conquest of the West Bank in the same light that the PRC's conquest of Tibet is (not) portrayed in that series of maps... Israel occupied the West Bank longer than China occupied Tibet, both have large groups rallying for freedom, and yet there can be quite a difference in how they are treated in articles due to consensus rules).97.85.211.124 (talk) 20:52, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

A note on your the administrators

Hello Mr Wales, as a regular user of Wikipedia who until today had only good things to say about it, I would like to draw your attention to an incident involving at least two of your administrators. Not being sure what to do or where else to go, I have arrived here. I suppose this might be regarded as a "Complaint", and I am aware that "the best thing to do if you have a complaint is to start with the help desk." However, the help desk seems unsuitable for this particular incident. "Ask a short, friendly question and fellow Wikipedians will be happy to help you" - well, I'm afraid experience tells me this is not at all the case. Therefore, I hope I am correct in thinking that I have "exhausted all other possible remedies." At the very least, I think you should be interested in what Wikipedia's administrators get up to behind the scenes.

The administrators in question are User:Panyd and User:Hu12, and I believe I was mistreated by them specifically because of my IP status. I had, in good faith, been making numerous constructive edits today before I was blocked without warning for a total of 48 hours by User:Panyd. The block appears to have resulted from adding links to various Year in Country articles, relating to a history documentary series which airs archive footage of same years. I added these links to nine Wikipedia entries concerning the years 1990 to 1999, as was already the case in the equivalent entries from 2000 to 2009, thinking that it could do no harm and that it may even be helpful. In doing so my aim was to provide a source for what were several Wikipedia entries lacking in references. I was abruptly blocked, after making one further, seemingly harmless, edit (the exchanging of an "A" for an "a"). While blocked, I tried to respond rationally and calmly but to no avail. User:Panyd ignored me, and continued to ignore me, even hours later while it was evident from their contributions that they were still editing.

Also, while blocked, User:Hu12 used the rollback function to which he or she is entitled to revert numerous edits intended as constructive and in good faith. They marked these edits as minor. I found these actions to be unsuitable behaviour for any editor, let alone an administrator, but could do nothing about it, apart from taking note on my talk page (the only page I could edit). I consulted Wikipedia:Rollback, where I found

Standard rollback may only be used in certain situations – editors who misuse standard rollback (for example, by using it to reverse good-faith edits in situations where an explanatory edit summary would normally be expected) may have their rollback rights removed. Since rollback is part of the core administrator tools, an admin could be stripped of their administrative privileges in order to remove those tools.

The administrator User:Hu12, apart from not knowing when to mark their edits "minor", appears to have grossly violated the rollback principle. I mean, what is this?

Finding myself momentarily powerless I left, returning several hours later to find there had been no further developments and that I was still blocked. At this stage, while trying as calmly as was possible in the circumstances to plead for assistance, I was insulted by various other editors, editors who no doubt looked upon me with suspicion as an IP, and a blocked IP at that. The notice telling me I am blocked from editing seems to have (at least temporarily) gone so I am attempting to leave this message here. I have done my utmost to remain calm and civil throughout, though I have been extremely discouraged by today's experiences. I am alerting you in the hope that other editors may never have to go through the same ordeal, and in the hope that you reconsider the type of editor to whom Wikipedia grants these special powers and privileges (even though they are probably not supposed to allow some to rule over others, it is plainly evident that they do).

Further details are visible on the talk page and through examination of the history. --86.40.96.187 (talk) 01:23, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

A little note: messaging Jimbo Wales probably won't help, as he rarely replies here. And the admins here are not Jimmy Wales' admins. They are Wikipedia's admins, which are two completely different things.

I mean, what is this?

There's nothing wrong with that revert, as your edits are not the correct way of using categories.

That's all I want to say. I'll leave the rest to other admins or users. --Vincent Liu (something to say?) 04:05, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

And how is that not the correct way to use categories? See, for example, Category:2000s in television. The revert has placed it back at the top instead of under "I" beside India as I had attempted to put it. That revert was carried out when I was placed under a block for similar so-called vandalism, thus ensuring I could not protest or ask the administrator why they did it. --86.40.96.187 (talk) 04:53, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

I have changed "your" to "the", assuming that is what is meant above. --86.40.96.187 (talk) 04:59, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

You're right, that is the correct way to use categories. Reading through your talk page, this whole affair seems to have been a massive WP:AGF failure. That said, it looks like you have now been unblocked, and I strongly advise you to let the matter drop. We're all human, we all make mistakes. Raking over old coals never ends well. It was an unfortunate incident, and I hope it hasn't deterred you from editing Wikipedia, but it's time to move on. DoctorKubla (talk) 05:13, 20 August 2012 (UTC)