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WWE Hall of Fame

As per a discussion at my talk page. At present, the tables on the WWE Hall of Fame articles have a column for "WWE recognized accolades", however, we are only listing a summary of said accolades, not all of what WWE actually recognizes for their Hall of Fame induction. I have tried to rectify that issue, but HHH Pedrigree disagrees based on a discussion that halted 8 years ago. His argument is essentially that "I think I'm right because this is how we've done it for years." He fails to see the fallacy in his argument that I've tried to explain (saying one thing but meaning something else). So, what are your all's thoughts? Should we only list a summary of their accolades, or actually list all of the accolades that WWE recognizes, as the title of the column states? --JDC808 ♫ 11:54, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Well, by parts.

1, As far as I know, the Hall of Fame articles list only the major accomplisments of the wrestler. No just WWE, but every other Hall of Fame like the WON Hall of Fame. After several years and many users following this idea, I think there is a consensus. It's not something I invented yesterday, It's how the project has worked for several years.

2, I'm not right because we have done it for years. I think the approach it's right. Some wrestlers, like Kurt Angle, Edge or Shawn Michaels have won several titles in WWE, so their boxes would be huge. I think the major ones are the important for the Hall of Fame. it's just a brief summary of his career, not a copy-paste of the C&A section. Edge is a 11 times World Champion, 14 times World Tag Team Champion, Money in the Bank winner, King of the Ring winner, Royal Rumble Winner. I don't think holding the US Title for 6 days it's in the same level. For example, the JBL article mentions his reigns as WWE Champion, World Tag Team Championship, United States and Intercontinental. But doesn't mention the European and Hardcore titles.

3, If I remember well, we change the name to "WWE recognized accolades" to avoid titles outside the WWE corporation (WWE, WCW, ECW, AWA, some NWA). For example, including TNA titles (Sting and Angle) or AJPW titles (DiBiase). Just to include WWE recognized accolades, not every WWE recognized accolades.

So. that's the way the project worked for several years and I think it's right, just the most notable accolades if thee wrestler has won several championships. If the problem it's the name of the column, just change it. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 13:16, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

@HHH Pedrigree: You proved JDC808's point. You said what he said you said. You "think" it is "right" because that's the way it's always been done. Just because something has always been done a certain way doesn't make it correct or doesn't mean it can't be changed. You can't use that as an argument. Looking at the discussion on JDC808's talk page, you have no footing. You are wrong. Do you even known what "WWE recognized accolades means?" The column doesn't say "only a few WWE recognized accolades that a few editors choose to add because they think the rest are not notable enough to be added because this is how it has always been done even though no consensus was reached." You have yet to show JDC808 (whether here or on his talk page) where a consensus was reached. You can't considering there was never a consensus reached. If you can't accept that all accolades includes all the titles they have won that are recognized by WWE, you should refrain from editing the WWE Hall of Fame articles. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 18:45, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

I think this is the right approach not because it's how it's done, it's because I think the most important titles are the notable for the Hall of Fame induction, no teritary titles and minor awards. Steve Austin is included for his work in the main event of WWE, not because he won the Million Dollar Championship. Michaels it's a Hall of Famer after winning several major accolades, not the Bragging Right trophy or the WWE Tag Team Title a few month before his retirement. If the problem it's the name of the colum, change it to "notable accolades". But again, it's the way the project has worked for several years, that's how consensus is built. Consensus it's not always created by discussion, also by editing and several users edited the Hall of Fame articles in that way for years. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 18:53, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

In fact, the section was called "Notes", until 2014, when Vjmlhds changed to WWE recognized accolades/Notes. I assume the Notes would be deleted after that. I don't know what do you want? A conversation? As I said, that how the Hall of Fame was written before I started here. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 19:18, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

@HHH Pedrigree: Why are you so adamant about something being "right" when a consensus was never reached? Let's take John Bradshaw Layfield Bradshaw for example. In the original format, he is a Grand Slam Champion. That means you have had to have won the European or Hardcore Championships to become one. If you actually look, he won both. You also said "if I remember well, we change the name to "WWE recognized accolades" to avoid titles outside the WWE corporation (WWE, WCW, ECW, AWA, some NWA)." Your argument of "only the important ones" fails on every level. The revision history you linked to says "WWE recognized accolades." You can keep proving JDC808 right. Stop backing yourself into a corner and just admit you are wrong. There is no harm in that.

You can't use the Million Dollar Championship as an example. That was a gimmick title to go along with Ted Dibiase's character. It was never officially recognized.

Did you actually read the page on consensus? I quote: "Any edit that is not disputed or reverted by another editor can be assumed to have consensus." It is being disputed now. It doesn't say when something has to be disputed. It doesn't state time length. You obviously didn't read the revert through discussion section. Consensus is not being achieved through editing alone. So no consensus. Try again. What you are wanting to do is only add certain accolades because you deem them as unimportant. Accolades means everything that WWE recognizes not what you feel should be put in based on your point of view. Your point of view is not neutral and that's a problem. You don't pick and choose what to list and not to list. That's not how this works. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 19:28, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Consensus was reached several years ago by other users. Yes, there is consensus. What do you want, a discussion where every user in 2009 said "I agree"? Does JDC want to change it? Okey, but with a discussion, no with editions against the previous consensus. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 19:38, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Her eis the history. In 2007, User:Scorpion0422 created an article List of members of the WWE Hall of Fame with the table. The section was called "remarks" and doesn't include titles, just a few remarkable things. Then, was changed to Notes and included titles. AGX7 changed remarks to notes. [1] But ALWAYS, the most notable titles are listed. [2] [3] --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 19:53, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Things are revisited all the time. You can't just sit on what happened then. Governments, companies, etc. revisit things all the time. Just because a consensus may have beenn made 20 years ago, for example, doesn't mean you are not allowed to look at it again. If you don't know how consensus works, you should leave the discussion. If you think you need to contact those people to get them to chime in now, that's pretty sad. It's about people discussing it now. It's not about WHO discussed it then. It should also be in the style guide. If the someone is a Grand Slam Champion, those titles should be noted as well. You said you can go to their article and see it. By that logic, titles are not necessary to list since you can go to the articles and see them. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 20:49, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

And to tag off of looking at a wrestler's respective article to see all of their accolades, as I said on my talk page, that lists everything they've done in and outside of WWE, not just what WWE recognizes for their Hall of Fame induction (as they don't recognize a majority of accomplishments that did not happen in WWE or one of the promotions they acquired). --JDC808 ♫ 22:01, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

@JDC808: I know they've mentioned NJPW on TV in recent years, but have they mentioned any of IWGP titles on TV. I can't remember them doing so. To your point, they've mentioned TNA when they had an episode of that show where they showed pictures to superstars and they reminiscence about stuff. The episode was AJ Styles. So they've referenced TNA before. He is afraid of change. He is a yes man follows the so-called status quo. That mentality needs to change. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 02:02, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

They have mentioned New Japan, and they have mentioned the IWGP Heavyweight Championship (they even recognized Kenny Omega as Heavyweight Champion and The Young Bucks as the tag champs when The New Day and The Elite had the Street Fighter tournament). But with NJPW, it's kind of hit and miss on what they recognize from there (for example, they recognize Jushin Thuner Liger's IWGP Junior Heavyweight titles, but seemingly not the others). They have only mentioned TNA like once or twice on TV, but have done it a few times on those WWE Network specials; however, WWE have yet to recognize their titles/accomplishments from TNA. --JDC808 ♫ 02:09, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

As I said, that's how the project wrote the article since 2009 and several users supported it. If somebody want to change it, the place is the discussion, no just editing saying "I don't like it, this is new consensus now". BTW, I think the "afraid of change" and "yes-man" comments aren't neccesary. I just think that a brief summary is enough for a Hall of Fame description, similar to an actor listing his biggest awards. Edge has 10 accomplishments, Michaels has 9 accomplishments (including the Grand Slam since he was the first), 24 if we include the Slammys (since are noted in The Bellas section). Including all titles would create a huge section full of expandable accolades. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 10:37, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

I for one cannot see a reason for the column at all. I could potentially get behind a "tenure" column instead, denoting when they worked for the company, but the other information is very pick-and-choose. Regardless of the WP:ILIKEIT arguments, I don't feel it adds anything we can't simply write in prose. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 10:58, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

In fact, I have looked other Hall of Fames. Most of them don't include titles, torunaments, etc... Sports Hall of Fame doesn't include that. Television Hall of Fame doesn't include Grammys. Texas Film Hall of Fame doesn't include Academy Awards or Palme d'Or. International Boxing Hall of Fame includes the boxing record, but not titles. UFC Hall of Fame was edited by wrestling user JMichael22 [4], sure he followed the WWE Hall of Fame scheme because used the TNA Hall of Fame as base. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 12:54, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

@Lee Vilenski: A "tenure" column would not work, especially for guys who are being inducted for their careers outside of WWE. For example, this year's inductee Jushin "Thunder" Liger, who only had two matches in WWE but never actually worked for them. Sting is another one. Although he finally signed to WWE in 2014 and had three matches and various appearances over that next year, his induction was largely for his JCP and WCW career (though not TNA as WWE doesn't recognize TNA/Impact, not yet anyways).

@HHH Pedrigree: Just because other stuff exists doesn't mean everything has to be the same. That's the way they do it, doesn't mean what we do has to be a carbon copy of them. There's also the difference in the fact that this is professional wrestling. --JDC808 ♫ 07:30, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

I think Other stuff is valid here. Pro Wrestling isn't different from combat sport and performing arts, so it's a good idea to see how other Hall of Fames are written. I don't know why pro wrestling is always the exception to the rule. Maybe, the idea is just the wrestler and the person who inducteed him. We have the prose section to write about his influence, career and accolades. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 09:18, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

There is no issue to see how those others do it, but again, doesn't mean it has to be the same. The reason pro-wrestling often has an exception is because it's pro-wrestling. It's not like real sports or other forms of entertainment, it's a mixture of the two (sports entertainment). Not that it can't be done in prose, but the table is more efficient to list accolades here, the prose can expand more on their influence (by the way, there are also females in wrestling). --JDC808 ♫ 09:28, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Pro wrestling it's a performance, sport entertainment. I don't see different from acting Hall of Fames where there is no accolades like Golden Globes or Academy Awards. Also, isn't different from boxing where people win titles. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 10:41, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

You're still going off of "I think" this and that as opposed to sound arguments. Again, just because other stuff exists doesn't mean everything has to be the same. They do it one way, doesn't mean we have to be forced to do it that way too. Their way is not the only way. --JDC808 ♫ 11:13, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Other stuff exist is valid, since every other Hall of Fame I saw doesn't include accolades. Again, pro wrestling it's always the exception just because we want. We are arguing just because one user, in 2014 and (I think) without discussion, changed the Notes title to WWE recgonized accolades. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 11:22, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

@HHH Pedrigree: It's already been pointed out by JDC that "other stuff" is not a valid argument here. Just because boxing, for example, is one way doesn't mean that it has to be the same for other articles. Why is that hard to understand? It also has been pointed out that you are not neutral with your arguments. You are going off "I think." Do you not know that one of pillars of Wikipedia as an editor is to remain neutral? No? You need to step back and learn how to be neutral. You are letting your feelings dictate your arguments. That needs to stop. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 18:02, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Hi. I'm neutral. As I aid, consensus was established several years ago, supported by many users. However, that's not neutral for you. Also, I made a research, how other projects handle the Hall of Fames. Also, it's no neutral. It's not different, you want to include every title just because you think is the right approach after an user, in 2014, changed "Notes" to "WWE recognized accolades". I think the opposite and, after watching other articles, support Lee's idea and delete the section. That's being neutral. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 18:08, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

No, you are not being neutral, you are being a yes-man, and based on your response, you do not understand what being neutral means. Your argument is still "I think this way is right because that's the way it's always been done". Also, I'm not trying to be rude in saying this, but can you please proofread your posts? It is sometimes hard to decipher what you are trying to say. --JDC808 ♫ 03:35, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

I don't really see why the length of the career in the company wouldn't be a suitable thing to mention. Yes, people get inducted for careers away from the company, but that is actually more of a notable thing, rather than something to hide. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:03, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm not saying we couldn't notate how long they worked for WWE, but to have a tenure column specifically on how long they worked for WWE wouldn't work for those guys who barely or did not work for WWE (again with Liger, that column would only say he worked two matches in WWE, so how exactly would that make his tenure with WWE a Hall of Fame worthy induction?). --JDC808 ♫ 20:32, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

• Speaking of other stuff, give Meltzer's edition some wonder. IW. (talk) 22:29, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

I am way late to this discussions and I apologize for being so late, but life has been crazy playing father/teacher and getting work done with all this Coronavirus fun. I tried reading everything in this but I am sure there is stuff I missed. As far as the 8 year ago discussion, I would say that discussion is moot in entirety as it related to a much smaller section before everything was broken out by year. An advantage of breaking everything out is we now can go into more detail. I dont think we should go crazy in detail, but I see no reason not to list every WWE/WCW/ECW championship. - Galatz גאליץ^{שיחה Talk} 18:10, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

@Galatz: It doesn't matter when you join the discussion. More input is always good. HHH Pedrigree is always saying "I think" which is not neutral. He thinks that because they are not a major title or award, it shouldn't be listed. But WWE.com lists accolades that he thinks shouldn't be listed. See the problem. Again, he is saying "I think." WWE.com puts the Hardcore Championship in John Bradshaw Layfield's Hall of Fame profile as an accolade. Plus (I've already mentioned this), JBL is a Grand Slam Champion. Either the Hardcore and European Championships, under the first format, were required to become such. He won both of those. Why would you ignore those two titles when becoming a Grand Slam is a big accomplishment? I've wondered if we should go off what WWE.com has listed. After all, that section is "WWE recogized accolades. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 14:25, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Stop saying I'm not neutral because I used the sentence "I think". You are the one obsessed with including every single accolade. My comments are based on consensus and policies. I support to include key information to understand his career and why is in the Hall of Fame. JBL's profile list every title he won in the promotion, like other WWE profiles. However, the article about his induction doesn't include European and Hardcore titles nor the Slammy award because aren't key point, highlights of his career. Michaels isn't in the Hall of Fame because he won the WWE Tag team title two months before his retirement. Edge is not in the Hall of Fame because he won the United States championship. They are because their work in the main event (and Edge, because his work as tag team wrestler). You don't like the "WWE recognized"? Change back to Notes, since one user changed several years ago and nobody cared. Or we can just delete this part like many other Hall of Fame (again, no reason to be diferent from other Hall of Fame, pro wrestling isn't that special) and improve the prose section. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 14:59, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

That's false accusations. Every single accolade is not what we're wanting to be included, just those that WWE recognizes, which is what the column is titled (also, changing it to Notes doesn't work because that still doesn't tell readers what exactly is being listed, and no where did we say we didn't like its current name, quite the contrary). Your "I think" comments are based on what you think is right because it's how it's been done, despite the issues regarding consensus, among others, that have been pointed out to you. You are continuing your same arguments without any valid support. The prose in the Background section does need improved, but that doesn't mean this column has to be outright removed (you weren't even for deleting it until Lee mentioned the possibility). --JDC808 ♫ 16:32, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

I always though the Notes/WWE recognized section doesn't help that much, that's why I supported a prose section. Hogan notes doesn't explain his impact in pro wrestling and pop culture. Same for Dusty Rhodes. Same for Steve Austin. Same for Antonio Inoki. Compare Mil Máscaras Hall of Fame sentence ("Mexican luchador. Máscaras was the first masked wrestler to perform in Madison Square Garden") with his prose section in the Homenaje a Dos Leyendas (2018). --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 17:32, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Ugh. No prose section. People can click on the articles if they want more. GaryColemanFan (talk) 23:12, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

I don't think we need every little thing that is included on the profile, but championships recognized makes sense to include. - Galatz גאליץ^{שיחה Talk} 18:28, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Well. Looks like I'm the only one that agrees with the consensus. It's normal, most of the users left wikipedia or didn't answer. So, I think the new consensus has been stablished. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 21:05, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

@HHH Pedrigree: Stop saying "I think." That's not neutral. You are agreeing with what JDC808 and I said. We said to include all recognized titles and you were dead set against it. Now that Galatz said it, you agree. This would have not dragged on this long if you agreed from beginning. *Shake my head* Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 04:16, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

@Fishhead2100: Stop fucking with me, you stupid. I have spent 10 years in Wikipedia, taking part in several discussions and voting several policies just to see how people undid my editions and told me they don't like the consensus is voted. I talk the way I want. If I use I think, it's because other users complained the way I talk, since English isn't my first language, I sound to agressive. I'm sick of every disrespect you made, calling me yes-man and similar. I don't agree with you. I don't agree with JDC. I think the new idea is for the worst. Suprise, I dont agree with every decision the project made. I saw several users prefers a new consensus. Now, go fuck yourself. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 09:42, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Your English has come a long way, from wrong like donkey to strong like mule. Count me in for following the Old Ways. WWE's hall, WWE's accolades, then, now, forever! InedibleHulk (talk) 07:12, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Howard Finkel

Anyone want to help source this article and hopefully get it posted on Recent Deaths? GaryColemanFan (talk) 14:58, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

I can try. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 15:12, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

@GaryColemanFan: The page is protected and only an admin can make edits of any kind. You have to make an edit request to ask an administrator to make an edit if it is uncontroversial or supported by consensus. The cause of death needs to be removed from the infobox again. I removed it and it got put back because someone is assuming that just because he had a stroke last year, that is what he died from. The cause of death has not been revealed. It will take some time to be revealed. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 05:29, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

I don't think I've ever seen this happen to a RD nomination before, even to a wrestling bio. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:24, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

COVID-19 help

On COVID-19 lock down? Here is a list of things you could do to keep you from going insane. To those of us who are already insane... well no list will help there ;) MPJ-DK (talk) 17:33, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

1. Pick an article from the Category:Stub-Class Professional wrestling articles list and improve it
2. Shoot a pro wrestling mockumentary featuring your cats
3. Update the championship table format for those articles listed as  Not done on the Wikipedia:WikiProject Professional wrestling/Championship watchlist
4. Help make Jushin Thunder Liger Good Article ready, the man is an international treasure people.
5. Look at the Clean up listing, pick an article and fix whatever is wrong with it.
6. Look at F4WOnline.com, they had a daily history article that can be used to source championship changes etc. there are so many articles where this would help
7. See a red link? Add the article.
8. Go out and get some sunlight (just kidding)

with some rewording and additional sourcing for his early career, Liger could be done. I'll take a look later. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:08, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

I also made a list of all unreferenced pages in the scope a while back, it can be found at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Professional wrestling/Archive 107#Unreferenced pages in project scope. JTP ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:18, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Then replace "going outside" with "Source articles on JTP's page" instead ;) MPJ-DK (talk) 22:31, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

TNA Impact Special Episodes, Clash of the Champions and Battle of Los Angeles

I have worked very hard on creating the articles of special episodes of TNA's Impact Wrestling, which replaced their former pay-per-view events and were equivalents to their pay-per-views but these articles were deleted and merged because the mentioned sources were considered unreliable. I want cooperation and advice from all the admins of this project on creating articles on the special episodes of TNA equivalent to their pay-per-views such as Destination X, No Surrender, Victory Road, Turning Point, Lockdown, Hardcore Justice, Final Resolution, Sacrifice and Against All Odds, because they were not just television episodes but special major events of TNA/Impact Wrestling.

Similarly, WCW promoted Clash of the Champions supercards and I want to create separate articles for all the Clash of the Champions editions but I will initiate them only if you allow me to do so and if you assure that you are not going to delete or merge them. I do not want to waste my time and energy on a thing which will not come to fruition. PWG also promotes the "Battle of Los Angeles" supercards and tournaments annually which is their biggest enough and I believe I have enough significant sources and details regarding these events that I can create their separate articles but it will be possible only if I am assured that these articles will be retained.--Mark Linton (talk) 13:07, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Several years ago, TNA cut all his PPV just to 3 or 4. The rest of the events were relegated to TV Specials, so the project thought the results in the main article is enough. Reading the articles, it's just the usual coverage for Weekly episodes, like RAW, SmackDown, Dynamite or any other nameless impact. For example, Hardcore Justice 2014. 23 sources, but 15 are unreliable. The others are just TV reports of previous and future shows. Reading the 23 sources, Hardcore Justice is just mentioned in 4 sources: PW Mania results (unreliable) OWOW results (unreliable), SmackDown Hotel results (unreliable) Bleacher report results (unreliable). No mention of Hardcore Justice before or after the event. No notable for his own article. On the other hand, WWE RAW 1000, which was considered for deletion has 43 sources, some of them, national media like USA Today, NY Times, Los Angeles Times and Variety. It was no just a special TV show, but a highly covered show for the historic meaning. There are many examples, like 2012 SmackDown Great American Bash or 2017 Starrcade, no notable event with the results on the main article. About PWG BOLA, it's like other independent tournament (CZW Tournament of Death, CHIKARA King of Trios). --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 13:53, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

If someone can demonstrate If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list. for a show then according to WP:GNG it can have a stand alone article. That part isn't really open for debate on a project level. The biggest failing here seems to be presenting reliable sources for the shows in the cited examples that were redirected. MPJ-DK (talk) 14:36, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes. I readed several article, but most part of the sources aren't reliable. Also, most of them doesn't mention the PPV. It's just the usual weekly coverage every website makes, no significant coverage. For example, Turning Point 2016: 4 sources, 3 of them are unreliable. Just TV results. Destination X 2017, 7 sources, 4 are unreliable. Just results (also, Superluchas doesn't even call the event Destination X, just "Results GFW Impact (August 17, 2017) Sienna and Dutt retain; the employer is stripped of the title"). --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 14:50, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

"Battle of Los Angeles" and "Clash of the Champions"? What about them?--Mark Linton (talk) 19:00, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Broken record time, read the criteria above - do you think you can meet that for BOLA or CotC? It doesn't matter what the subject it, what matters is if you can show significant coverage in reliable, third-party sources. MPJ-DK (talk) 15:06, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

I've not seen or followed TNA/Impact since they left Spike so I won't comment on post-2015 material, but I agree with the consensus achieved in 2013 that the special episodes of Impact that share names with the PPVs are not notable enough to have separate articles. You always need to rely on reliable sources, your edits to TNA's move to Monday night's, which is a good article, did not provide any source at all.LM2000 (talk) 22:36, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

There were several Raw episodes I nominated for deletion a year or so ago and they were closed as keep. I don't think we can blanket say qualifies or not. I would suggest taking each article on its own and see if it meets the criteria. There was a time we said individual PPVs don't meet notability, but now they do. I dont have an issue with the articles Mark Linton as long as they establish GNG. - Galatz גאליץ^{שיחה Talk} 15:07, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

Ken Anderson (wrestler), an article that the project may be interested in, has been nominated for a community good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. HHH Pedrigree (talk) 12:50, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Not cool. First of all, own up to it. It wasn't just "nominated"--you put it up for reassessment. Second, if you don't like it, then you can WP:SOFIXIT or ask for help. Putting it up for GAR just annoys people by placing an artificial timeline on it. It's another way of saying, "Hey, this article has been at this quality level for a while, but I've suddenly decided, in the middle of a pandemic, that you all need to drop what you're doing and focus on my priority." Not cool at all. GaryColemanFan (talk) 02:32, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

I'm forcing no-one to fix the article. But, in his current state, doesn't meet the GA criteria since, at least, 2014. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 09:59, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

If you don't like it, then you can WP:SOFIXIT or ask for help. Putting it up for GAR just annoys people by placing an artificial timeline on it. It's another way of saying, "Hey, this article has been at this quality level for a while, but I've suddenly decided, in the middle of a pandemic, that you all need to drop what you're doing and focus on my priority." Not cool at all. GaryColemanFan (talk) 00:48, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

I'm forcing no-one to fix the article. But, in his current state, doesn't meet the GA criteria since, at least, 2014. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 01:04, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

You've gone about this the wrong way. I hope you learn from your mistake. GaryColemanFan (talk) 01:02, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Not my mistake. he article is better now, the user who edited the article agrees the GAR was the way. If this is the result, I will open more GAR. You only complained and no edited. You are the one who told me "aks for help", but you didn't help. Complained about me opening a GAR, but you don't care about articles that don't meet the GA criteria. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 01:09, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Why are you so worked up about this? If a GA doesn't meet the criteria to keep its status, this is what happens. Chill out. JTP ^{(talk • contribs)} 03:20, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

HHH did exactly what one is supposed to do if they think a GA has declined in quality and no longer meets the criteria. The only one here wrong is you GaryColemanFan. The attitude is unneeded, and wrong. oknazevad (talk) 03:30, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, @Oknazevad: @NotTheFakeJTP:. I don't know why, at the end, I'm the target of everyone's attacks --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 03:34, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Did you forget that's the price you must pay, when you are the game and they want to play? InedibleHulk (talk) 09:52, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

There's more than one way to get an article improved. HHH has done one of them. Gary has proposed another method. They are both viable. I do not think HHH Pedrigree did anything particularly wrong. starship.paint (talk) 06:43, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

GaryColemanFan - this is exactly how the GA Reassement should be done - this is common practice. What's more - suggesting that it isn't and the user is causing issues borders on a personal attack. Please do not do this in future. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 09:19, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

I am trying to share the benefit of my experience. When I was fairly new around Wikipedia, I messed up and initiated a couple of reviews without first putting in enough effort to work with the projects. I must say that my response to HHH has been pretty tame compared to what I received. I initially dug in my heels with the "upholding Wikipedia standards" line, and, while some editors expressed support for what I did, I quickly realized that I was in the wrong--not because I wanted to improve articles, but because the way I went about opening the review was perceived more as bullying and demanding that people be on my timeframe rather than a genuine attempt at collaboration. That's the same issue here. I learned my lesson. I hope HHH can learn it as well. That doesn't mean we can't work together to make articles better. It just means that this wasn't a particularly good way to try, and I hope for a different approach in the future. GaryColemanFan (talk) 14:56, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Britt Baker

Hello. I aprecitate some help with the Britt Baker article. I created a small sector for her character and finishing move, but KyleJoan delete it and bring it to discussion. I aprecitate if some users talk about the section, if it's necessary or not. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 10:56, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

• The discussion on whether the article should include a professional wrestling style and persona section can be found here. Cheers! KyleJoan^talk 15:35, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

  For what it's worth, myself, KyleJoan, HHH Pedrigree and MPJ-DK have come to an agreement on the above discussion. Just an update. starship.paint (talk) 04:41, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Discussion on the reliability of Whatculture at the reliable sources noticeboard

There is currently a discussion at the RS/N about the reliability of Whatculture, a site often used in Wrestling related articles, given the relevance to your wikiproject, I am leaving a link here to encourage discussion, as you are more likely to be familiar with the uses of the source than most of the regulars on the noticeboard. Thank you. Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:04, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

NXT Championship RfC

There is an RfC at Talk:NXT Championship#Requests for comment regarding the NXT Championship's world title status.LM2000 (talk) 23:59, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Carly Colon, GA Status

Hi. I think the Carly Colon article doesn't meet the Good Article criteria. Huge parts of his career are unsourced. Also, Online World of Wrestling isn0t reliable anymore. If somebody wants to help, that will be great. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 00:58, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

PWI Almanac 2007 and 2008

I recently found my old stash of wrestling magazines, among them the PWI Almanac 2007 and 2008 version, covering happenings in 2006 and 2007. It has the PWI 500, stats on wrestlers, top 10 news stories, recap of the year, title histories and PPV histories up until that year. If someone is in need of a reliable source I can help provide page numbers etc. to help out. MPJ-DK (talk) 02:24, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

GA Reassessment, Carly Colón

Carly Colón, an article that the project may be interested in, has been nominated for a community good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. HHH Pedrigree (talk) 14:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

All Caps

Just wanting some clarification on All Caps usage. I've read the Wiki guide but I see so much inconsistency on wrestling articles that I'm not sure what I correct.

Am I correct in thinking wrestlers, tag teams, stables, promotions, etc. that use all caps should not be shown like that. For example, Taru instead of TARU, Voodoo Murders instead of VOODOO MURDERS and Freedoms instead of FREEDOMS. The exception being anachronisms such as AJPW. 03Heat (talk) 13:58, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

The only things that should be all caps are acronyms or initialisms. So WWE, AEW, ROH, etc. but not "IMPACT" (use "Impact") as it's not an acronym. (Don't know why you call AJPW an anachronism, as it's still the common name of the company, however diminished it may be.) See MOS:TM for more info. oknazevad (talk) 15:22, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Probably autocorrect for acronym. And I agree with you. MPJ-DK (talk) 17:20, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you both. And yes, I did mean acronym. 03Heat (talk) 09:13, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

The one other exception to not capitalizing I can think of would be if each letter in the term was pronounced individually as proposed to it being treated as a word. For example Rated-RKO should use RKO since it’s pronounced as AR KAY OH not rkho.--69.157.254.64 (talk) 20:29, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

RKO is an acronym, so it is correct to write it in caps. MPJ-DK (talk) 21:22, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Issue at Teahouse

Please see WP:Teahouse#professional_wrestlers where an editor asked about article content. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 09:02, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Tucker

Hi. Since people voted for change the name of Otis'article, I wanted to do the same with his partner, Tucker Knight and change it to Tucker (wrestler). I think it's the same case and even was mentioned in the discussion. However, there is another wrestler, Tucker (wrestler). Do you have any idea? Using Tucker (American wrestler) and Tucker (British wrestler) maybe? --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 17:05, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Should Tucker (wrestler) stay as a redirect to the British wrestler or should it be retargeted to the American one.--69.157.254.64 (talk) 22:32, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Archive URLs for Slam! pages

In the articles I've looked at lately, it looks like all of the Slam! sources are no longer working. This has been one of the most important reliable sources for wrestling articles. Unfortunately, it also looks like many of the articles and biographies are excluded from the Internet Archive Wayback Machine. I have been finding some success with archive.fo. It can't replace everything, but it's a start. For example, on the Over the Edge (1999) article, I found archived versions for 6 of the 8 references. GaryColemanFan (talk) 05:48, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

profightdb.com

profightdb.com is listed on WP:PW/RS as limited reliability only for match results. In edits such as [5] it is being used to say which day which matches happened for WrestleMania. I have not seen anywhere else reliable claim what happened which day. Is this reliable for this? - Galatz גאליץ^{שיחה Talk} 13:40, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Hmm, it's tricky, as realistically we should be able to say "sure, it's fine" as it's an RS. Commically it does also list: Attendance: Unknown... Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:42, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

This is basically the bread and butter for that site...keeping track of the who, where, when, and winners of the actual matches. It doesn't deal with wrestling "news" (i.e. signings/releases), and isn't meant to. Think of it as basically a pro wrestling box score page. Vjmlhds (talk) 14:50, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

In this specific case that site is incorrect. If you look at the results, they list all the matches from night 1 (April 4th) as all being filmed on the first taping day (March 25th). And they list all the matches from night 2 (April 5th) as all being filmed on the second taping day (March 26th). That’s not what happened. Dave Meltzer reported that the matches were recorded, in no particular order, on both days and the reason they didn’t announce until the day the PPV aired which matches were going to be shown on which day, is because they were still deciding where to edit-in each match. Profight looks like they wanted to make things simple by saying “Night 1 was filmed on night 1 and night 2 was filmed on night 2.” That’s not accurate. OldSkool01 (talk) 15:14, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

I think like OldSkool. It's weird that, the only source that includes the exact date it's Profight. No PWInsider, Meltzer, PWTorch. Also, it's weird day 1=matches day 1. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 17:25, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Yeah it seems they just did it that way to simplify everything. It’s obvious the shows weren’t taped like that because if you look at Gronk, he wore the exact same outfit on both shows. If, in theory, it was supposed to be done on 2 seperate days, he wouldn’t wear the same outfit twice. Even Stephanie at least changed her outfit the next day for those introductions she did both nights, even though most likely she taped both intros at the same time. OldSkool01 (talk) 18:38, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

I agree, I had heard as well from reliable sources that things were mixed and matches from the different nights. - Galatz גאליץ^{שיחה Talk} 19:09, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

It's really annoying and even further makes me wish we didn't put so much emphasis on "when it really happened" over the dates that are recognized, especially considering it's all fictional anyways (no issue with saying when it really happened, just think it doesn't need the emphasis that it has right now). --JDC808 ♫ 10:57, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

The problem there is WWE contradicts themselves when it comes to what dates they “recognize” and what dates they don’t. Sometimes they’ll recognize the date a match is aired, as opposed to when it was taped, other times they’ll recognize the date it was taped. Then sometimes they’ll spoil their own shows by revealing what happened at a TV taping before it airs(like when Mankind won the title and many other instances). Other times they’ll change history, like on their title history pages, where they’ll now acknowledge the date a title change was taped, whereas in the past they always recognized the date it aired. SummerSlam ‘92 is another example of contradiction. On the Network they have the event listed as August 31, 1992 (the air date), but on the IC Title page they have Bulldog’s title win over Bret listed as August 29, 1992 (the date it actually happened). The reason the real dates take precedence over the air dates goes back to the idea that the live audience was always more important than the TV audience. At some point during the early 2000s they started to put more emphasis on the TV audience. It used to be you were watching a live event that was being aired on television, now today you’re watching a television show that just happens to be a live event. Another big issue with why we recognize the actual dates over the recognized dates is because WWE can’t count to save their lives. How many times do they list, for example, a 1 week title reign as 8 days when it really should be 7 days? There’s tons of cases like that. OldSkool01 (talk) 17:23, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

For example, When Velveteen Dream won the NA title 30 days before it was aired in a match with two endings. However, Wikipedia reports fact: Dream won the title 30 days before the match was aired and two endings were taped. There are several titles we don't have records, like Mexican titles, some early NWA titles, but it's fine. Just admit we don't have the whole information. Like this, we don't know if the match happened on 25 or 26, it's not a big deal --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 19:18, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Agreed, nothing wrong with saying we don't know. And I'm shocked (shocked!) that WWE is inconsistent with their records, or that they change them to suit the moment. It's almost like they don't particularly care.

And why that is, I think you nailed it OldSkool01. Major American pro wrestling is less a live pseudo-sport that happens to be televised live as it is a television show that happens to have a live audience (well, except for these days because of the pandemic). In many ways it's like the old days of studio wrestling from before every week being live became common. No one really cares what order the scenes in a movie are shot unless you're involved in the production and you need to schedule shooting days. Wrestling has been moving (back) in that direction for some time any way, where only WWE (and how AEW) are actually live, and things like Matt Hardy's Deletion matches, the Taker/AJ match, and this years MITB matches, have become more common. Will it go back after the pandemic ends? Who knows.

Which essentially is a long winded way of saying we shouldn't worry about it too much. oknazevad (talk) 19:42, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

@OldSkool01: You're missing the point on this all being fictional. Regardless if WWE "changes history", its their story to tell, because it's all fictional (that goes for all promotions); note that I'm not saying what they change can't be notated. The whole live audience argument is a moot point. We don't ever do that with other TV shows that are filmed in front of a studio audience, for example (at least not to my knowledge). --JDC808 ♫ 02:01, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Just because professional wrestling is “fake” doesn’t mean you can compare it to movies or sitcoms or television dramas (as much as Vince McMahon would love to fall into those categories) because professional wrestling is it’s own unique form of sports entertainment that can’t be compared to anything else. You can’t compare it to movies because movies aren’t taped in front of a live audience 52 weeks a year. And you can’t compare it to sitcoms that are taped in front of a studio audience because that studio audience is hearing the director say “Cut!” and then watching them film the same scene over and over again until they get it right. Sitcoms are also filmed months and months in advance with no presumption that what you are seeing is pretending to be real. Professional wrestling is done live, no retakes, in front of a different live audience multiple times a week. If pro wrestling was comparable to sitcoms then whenever there is a botched move in a match you would hear the ref say cut and then they’d retape it again on the spot. During sitcom tapings the actors don’t stay in character through the whole taping. In between takes they laugh and talk with the audience and tell jokes and whatnot. Wrestling doesn’t do that. Wrestlers stay in character the entire time they’re in front of the audience from the moment they step out on stage until they go back through the curtain. Also you’ll never see a movie studio say “Breaking news: during the taping of one of our scenes tonight, Kylo Ren killed Han Solo. Be sure to go to the theaters in 6 months to see it play out.” WWE on the other hand has done that countless times when there was a title change at a TV taping where they announced it on WWE.com before it aired on television. WWE can change and rewrite and retcon their history all they want. Our job is to make sure the accurate version of what happened gets told. If all Wikipedia did was parrot whatever WWE.com says then these pages will all serve no purpose. It would just be duplicates of WWE.com. People might as well just go straight to WWE.com to get their often distorted version of history. OldSkool01 (talk) 04:26, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Yes, yes you can in fact compare it to those other ones. And you overlooked the fact where I explicitly said that I was not saying to not notate changes (quite the opposite, changes should be notated, just as changes are notated in other articles about other fictional universes). Whether it was filmed in front of a live audience or not doesn't really matter, again, because it's all fictional. And your assertion that "professional wrestling is done live" is a false statement. Yes, a lot of what is shown on TV (when it's actually done live) is in fact live, but there are also things that are not done live and there are in fact reshoots, etc. What we're doing here on Wikipedia is trying to make professional wrestling "real" when it is not. You are also taking this way out of proportion on the comparison. --JDC808 ♫ 04:38, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Not trying to make wrestling “real”, but we’re also not trying to fixate on the fictional part of it either. Just because the matches are predetermined doesn’t mean pro wrestling should be compared to all other forms of fiction. Like I said, professional wrestling is a unique form of sports entertainment that is unlike any other business in the world and should be treated as such without trying to lump it in with movies, sitcoms, dramas and whatnot. We already do acknowledge the dates that WWE recognizes, that’s why we have 2 seperate columns, one for the date a title change took place and one for the date that WWE recognizes. OldSkool01 (talk) 04:51, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Pro wrestling is fake, but title changes and matches happen in real world. The project had this conversation several times, the facts vs fiction. At the end Wikipedia likes facts more based on several policies and guidelines. Sources state that some wrestler won the match on XX, not when the match was aired. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 09:40, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Also, the idea for the discussion was to talk about WM dates accoring to profight.com. Reading several memebrs, I think the discussion ended, conclusion: Profight is against several other sources and isn't reliable for this kind of issues. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 09:52, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @OldSkool01: FYI, I was the one who started the discussion and gained the consensus to have the the WWE recognized column added mainly because of this whole fact vs. fiction whatnot because we previously did not include what WWE recognized. All we previously stated was that a match occurred on tape delay with no reference to what WWE actually recognized.

@HHH Pedrigree: "Pro wrestling is fake, but title changes and matches happen in the real world." Really? I did not know. I thought it was all CG. My smart ass comment aside, of course they happen in the real world. How or where else would it happen? Again, going back to a my previous assertion with other TV shows, we don't apply this to them, but they too "happen in the real world." Regardless of professional wrestling's uniqueness, at the end of the day, it's a live-action fictional show. Live or not live, we are watching a fictional universe play out much the same way we do with other shows. Only difference is how it's watched and produced. Also, as to your comment of "Wikipedia likes facts." Well, here's a fact, pro-wrestling is fictional yet we are trying to present fictional aspects of it as real. --JDC808 ♫ 10:06, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

New Day defeated Revival In Manchester on November 8. AOP defeated Rollins on November 5. Kingston defeated The Miz on October 16, 2012 Velveteen Dream defeated Strong on January 30 . There is no fiction to say a wrestler won a title on XX, and was aired on YY, since the title change took place when happened, no when it's aired. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 10:15, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

You're not understanding the point, and you basically just proved me right. --JDC808 ♫ 10:22, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

This conversation is clearly going nowhere. We can go back and forth forever on this. We’re gonna have to agree to disagree. So let me try to get back to the original talking point. Profight is not accurate when it comes to the WrestleMania 36 taping dates. I haven’t seen any evidence to prove otherwise. OldSkool01 (talk) 11:21, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Agree. Profight isn't accurate. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 13:31, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Nor I, good sir. InedibleHulk (talk) 11:31, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

They way I believe both at once without going mad is to assume that the crowd sees title change announcements and celebrations, but these have to officially "go down in the record book", a dusty leatherbound backstage tome, to seal the deal. Most of the time, the ceremony occurs shortly before midnight after the show, but now and then, the champs-elect are tired, going to party or are all out of signing blood, so it's postponed a few days. Total coincidence how this seems to only happen at TV tapings, that's all. But yeah, the only "serious" answer is "wrestling is insane, deal with it". InedibleHulk (talk) 10:30, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

I trust profightdb.com as one of the most reliable record of wrestling matches, it has been there a long time and reliably records match dates, venues, etc as far back as the 19th C to present day. There are very few records as reliable as this. Nothing on it has ever been proven unreliable, rather WP:PW is filled with unreliable and propaganda filled post 2010s made sources, that have questionable reliability, and has often used OR contents. I am voting profightdb.com as reliable. Dilbaggg (talk) 13:02, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

People are conflating two different terms here. Reliable means that it is written by experts, such as (to simplify the matter) a staff that has gone through an application process or someone who has otherwise proven himself or herself to be an expert. Examples include people who have been in the business for a long time and have been recognized by others in the industry as an expert. Accurate means that the thing reported actually happened as the writer says. For inclusion on Wikipedia, the source should pass the first test. Is it a reliable source? The question of accuracy is secondary. Reliable sources can report inaccurate information. Accurate sources may not pass the reliability test. Arguing about whether a source is reliable based on the accuracy (or inaccuracy) of a report shows a misunderstanding of one of Wikipedia's most important guidelines. GaryColemanFan (talk) 13:37, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

New Zealand Wide Pro Wrestling

Hi, I need some opinion on an issue. New Zealand Wide Pro Wrestling has closed since the owner retired earlier this year. I made edits to the page but another user continues to revert all of my edits. I have searched and have found some evidence that the promotion is defunct. I would like some help and a consensus to be reached. Please can you do some more research and make a decision?

The promotion was operated by Martin Stirling and He Toa Sports Incorporated. The promotion has been closed since 2018 and has not held any events since then. Cagematch shows correctly that it closed in 2018 So does this site, The website nzwpw.com and its Facebook page was closed in 2018. No more content has been posted on the promotion's Twitter page since 2018 Also the contact page of the development version of the now closed NZWPW website You will see it was part of He Toa Sports which is now closed. Please visit nzwpw.com in the Web Archive to see this. It shows the parent is He Toa Sports which is now closed. As reported by Maori Television, the He Toa Sports training school was closed in 2015. He Toa Sports Incorporated was officially dissolved on 28 February 2020 Socks 01 (talk) 02:44, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

The above review is loaded with original research just for the record. Socks is drawing lines that aren't there without more sources, such as the assertion that He Toa Sports had anything to do with NZWPW after 2009 except allowing NZWPW to use their office. Inactive = in hiatus. Inactive <> defunct. Addicted4517 (talk) 08:14, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Are we even 100% confident this is a notable promotion? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:36, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

References

Great American Bash leaks

I know Wikipedia doesn't censor spoilers but out of courtesy I'm going to give you all fair warnings for spoilers for Pt 2 of Great American Bash. Stop reading here if you want to avoid spoilers.

That out of the way, you might have seen that a leak has revealed that Keith Lee will win the NXT championship on night 2 of GAB, to be broadcast on 8th July. This change has been made on several articles already, such as Lee's article, the NXT title page, and the list of NXT champions page. I have reverted these based on the fact that leaks would not be considered reliable sources: firstly, the "leak" in question is far from confirmation: it is a (grainy) photo of Lee appearing to celebrate, but holds no official statement of Lee's victory. Secondly, unconfirmed leaks would conflict with WP:RUMOUR in that this is not verifiable. Similarly we shouldn't be making changes in anticipation for his victory, as per WP:CRYSTALBALL. Finally, as per other title pages, Lee's title reign is only official when it actually becomes official (i.e., when the show is broadcast and WWE lists it on their site).

I'm posting this here on the Wikiproject page out of anticipation that we'll need to keep a close eye on these articles over the coming days as I expect edit warring to take place. — Czello 15:28, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, we'd wait for the date of broadcast even if reliable sources were talking about it. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:30, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

No, we actually don't. If a reliable source reports results before airing, they're fair game for inclusion. The problem here is we don't really have a reliable report of the results, not that it's before the air date. oknazevad (talk) 23:23, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

In the past we've updated the articles before air dates per WP:SPOILER. It's only a WP:RUMOUR if it isn't reliably sourced, if it is then we have to go with it. I never watched Lucha Underground but it's my understanding that their fans were upset that our articles on it included results that hadn't aired yet. As far as when a reign becomes official, all title lists have separate columns for days held and days recognized. The first column would always be for the day it was taped (when applicable).

In this case, if reliable sources haven't picked up the story then we should not run with it.LM2000 (talk) 05:13, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Agree with LM and Oknazevad. If a reliable source reports a title change before it's aired, we include it. Pro wrestling takes place in the real world, Lee won the title on July 1, not July 8. For example, The Revival won the first NXT Tag Team title on October 22. The title victory was aired on November 11, so WWE recognized November 11. However, they defended the titles 4 times before the title match was aired. [6] Maybe, the only difference it's the lack of fans in the venue, so reliable sources can't confirm the information 100%. For me, we will know in two days, so I will wait. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 08:13, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

This is just another reason why I hate our practice of going by "what happened in the real world". It just muddies things up further and causes these kind of issues (like the looming issue of WrestleMania 36's title changes). As to this particular issue, it's not exactly a rumor. An employee of the company (NXT wrestler Saurav Gurjar) took a picture of the result and shared said picture. Whether or not this employee would be considered reliable is a bit pointless as there is undeniable evidence. Although Gurjar deleted the post, it has also been reported that WWE is furious with Gurjar for posting that picture and spoiling the results. --JDC808 ♫ 08:35, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

A reliable source has not confirmed the title change. They've commented on an apparent leak (and they even use the word "apparent"), but the leak itself is not considered reliable. Calling it "undeniable evidence" is simply wrong -- while it could well be genuine, it could also be taken out of context. In short, there is nothing confirmed about this (and it wouldn't be the first time WWE changed an event because of a leak). Simply put, this isn't official until we have actual confirmation. — Czello 09:11, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

So basically, your take is to wait until WWE confirms it. They obviously are not going to confirm it until it airs because they don't want to spoil their own show, especially when they're going head-to-head with AEW and want viewers to tune into their show and see the result "live". Also, how can a picture that legitimately shows Lee winning be taken out of context? The only answer would be that they filmed two endings, but that is in fact a rumor. Then there's the fact that WWE are mad over the fact that the result has been spoiled. Could they change it? Sure, but they've already taped the episode, and with this pandemic going on, they're not gonna make everyone come back just to re-tape one thing because the result got leaked. Reliable sources have reported on this, like the one I shared. --JDC808 ♫ 12:15, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I do believe we should wait (it's only 2 days so not exactly long). I think an image can easily be taken out of context -- it doesn't show him winning, it shows him celebrating with two belts. Perhaps there are different endings, perhaps they change it, perhaps there's a beat-down and Lee just raises one of the belts -- tbh, it doesn't really matter. Even if it did show him winning, it wouldn't matter. All that matters is that Keith Lee as NXT champion is not official, and it should not be added until there is confirmation that he is champion; otherwise we're simply assuming. Chances are he probably does win the title -- but it's unencyclopedic for us to include it as fact when we don't know that it is. And to reply to your final point -- as far as I can see, no reliable source HAS confirmed this. They're instead just talking about how there was an "apparent" leak, as I said above. — Czello 13:05, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

• Two words "Dusty Finish" - may I remind people who put stock in a picture that pictures exist of Chris Jericho defeating a certain man of more than two "H"? A picture without context doesn't tell the full story. MPJ-DK (talk) 13:01, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

• Excellent point. This is a good reason why it would be irresponsible of us to add it at this point. — Czello 13:07, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

A reliable source would be someone who is an established expert publishing a match result. For example, Dave Meltzer attending a taping and reporting what happened. In a case like that, we could trust that the announced ending of the match was not reversed or changed by the end of the event. By Wikipedia standards, the results could be posted. They may turn out to be inaccurate to some extent (e.g. Shawn Michaels and Marty Jannetty won the tag team championship as The Rockers, but they are not credited as ever having held the belts because the WWF chose not to air the footage), but WP:RS is more important than a dislike or distrust of spoilers.

A report that "some guy" was at a taping and said that X beat Y doesn't meet the criteria for reliable sources. A picture of someone holding a belt or having an arm held up in victory doesn't meet the criteria. There are countless examples of people thinking they had won only to be informed otherwise, or a second referee coming to the ring to alert the first referee to cheating, etc. (again, there are pictures of The Rockers holding the tag team championship belts).

I wouldn't be surprised if promotions start holding decoy matches to prevent this sort of situation in the future, similar to how some television shows have recorded alternative episodes to thwart leaks, spoilers, and hackers. That would complicate the matter even more. GaryColemanFan (talk) 15:23, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Add Evolve's championships to List of current champions in WWE page?

I already posted this question on the talk page, but yet to receive an answer, so I'll ask here. Since WWE officially bought Evolve, should we add Evolve's championships to the List of current champions in WWE page or wait until WWE use the Evolve brand in an official capacity?--Keith Okamoto (talk) 15:17, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

No -- WWE have purchased Evolve but they're still a separate company: they just have new owners. It's not like they're a separate brand, like NXT. — Czello 18:51, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Does Evolve still operating? the article says it's done. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 19:10, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware they're still operating, they just belong to WWE. — Czello 19:28, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

No, the story makes it clear that Evolve is no longer operating. The other promotions under the WWN Live banner which were not owned by Gabe, such as FIP and Shine, are supposed to eventually continue (though when I don't think even they know), but Evolve does not continue to operate. Indeed, from what was said at PW Insider, the sale apparently happened precisely because Gene was shutting down and WWE had a right of first refusal to buy the tape library and such as part of the working agreement that made Evolve the Double-A minors of WWE (beneath the Triple-A of NXT).

As for the question at hand, I say no, don't add them. WWE may have bought the remains of Evolve, but there's zero indication that they're going to continue it as a brand or whatever. They're definitely not current WWE championships. oknazevad (talk) 19:43, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Ok, another question. Does WWE own the Dragon Gate USA videotape? --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 20:51, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

According to the PW Insider report, that was included in the sale. I can imagine there being issues with WWE fully using it because of licensing concerns with Dragon Gate in Japan, but that would be a separate issue to their ownership of the tape library itself. oknazevad (talk) 22:44, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Couple of things. Were FCW's titles listed when FCW was still in operation? Also, regardless of everything else that was said, if WWE doesn't list them on their website as their own current championships, neither should we here. --JDC808 ♫ 09:13, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Clash of the Champions match times

I just noticed that an IP added fake match times back in December 2012. I fixed the times for one event, and I can work away at the others. If anyone wants to help, please feel free. There's no actual source given for match times, but I went with Pro Wrestling History (prowrestlinghistory.com), as it's definitely better than the fake times (one match I looked at was listed as 12 minutes when it was actually less than 3). GaryColemanFan (talk) 21:52, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Quick update: I finished this project today, so it's all consistent with the Pro Wrestling History times. GaryColemanFan (talk) 19:16, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

The Reality Era(Dispute)

Hello I am in the middle of a dispute with Dilbaggg (talk · contribs) who refuses to allow me to edit sections on "The Reality Era" article as well as the History of WWE for the Reality Era as well. I have three reputable sources, TWO of which are from WWE themselves, one that states point blank that the timeframe for this era is 2014-2016. However this user is using their own personal views and opinions by going with a 2013-2016 timeframe which is incorrect. So incorrect that again, WWE themselves disagree as you will see below. Dilbaggg's source pointing to the Reality Era beginning in 2013 is a fanmade poster photo from DeviantArt that says "2013-2016". I find this absurd. If someone can please assist it would be much appreciated. Thank you.

• https://www.wwe.com/polls/what-is-your-favorite-wwe-era
• https://www.thesportster.com/wrestling/important-matches-wwe-reality-era/
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hemBUIEc1uo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.72.173 (talk • contribs)

68.196.72.173 (talk) 23:40, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Most of the sources you gave are either primary (WWE) which btw is just a poll not an article and the sportster isn't even a reliable source. The youtube video Triple H never said 2014 was the start of the reality era, he said it was ongoing, much like the pg era started in 2008 but was never acknowledged by WWE themselves until 2010 (until then only fans used the term to mock the WWE's transition "back to TV PG" which it also was before 1997, tv ratings do not determine eras), they referred to the period as the Universe Era. You can't use polls as a source and if you are going to use quotes from wrestlers, I have quotes from CM Punk coining the term reality era from 2011. There are WP:RS which cites 2011 as the beginning of The Reality Era:

• https://grantland.com/features/wwe-night-champions-preview/
• https://www.espn.com/story/_/id/7131456/cm-punk-worked-tweet-era
• http://thechairshot.com/2019/06/the-doc-says-the-wwe-decade-in-review-2011-the-rise-of-cm-punk/
• https://411mania.com/wrestling/change-the-eyes-examining-the-reality-era/

Cheers. Dilbaggg (talk) 00:08, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Triple H's exact quotes from the video:

"Maybe I start the Reality Era" "Maybe as of right now this moment this is the beginning of the Reality Era"

And it was. And eventually years later WWE apparently labeled 2014 in general as the start of the era as seen in my first source.

And continuing on, the Sportster isn't a reliable source but grantland, thechairshot.com(a random guy saying something in a podcast?) and 411mania are? Not to mention they all supersede WWE themselves? And with regards to the the 411Mania source, they too imply that the beginning was 2014 with Triple H's statement from 3/24/14, not 2013. And you're right TV ratings don't determine era's and WWE wasn't the 'PG Era' prior to 1997 but that is completely irrelevant here besides the point as WWE has called it the PG Era multiple times - Once in that poll, and two others from WWE superstars themselves that I know of- Triple H in his "Thy Kingdom Come" documentary and Natalya on her "Table for 3" episode. I am perfectly fine with keeping your 2013 background on the Reality Era but as far as the REAL timeframe goes the official timeframe is 2014-2016. It's like other era's too. In late 1992 when WWE slowly began heading in a different direction with new stars such as Bret, Shawn and Razor but the New Generation didn't go into full swing until mid 93 or so. 68.196.72.173 (talk) 02:20, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

@Dilbaggg: that poll might be a primary source and it might just be a poll, but here's the thing: it's WWE's product. It being a primary source is exactly why it trumps the secondary sources; those secondary sources don't define the eras of WWE, WWE defines what constitutes their eras, and the poll shows what those are and their time frames. The secondary sources just report and discuss further and are used as a backing to validate the primary. In 10-15 years, if WWE decides to do some rewriting/retconning on what they define as these eras, then we have secondary sources to give us a broader view and what was being reported at the time. --JDC808 ♫ 04:39, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

WWE also cites the PG Era as the Universe Era (including their official games like WWE2K14), we do not call that period Universe Era for that, in until 2010 the term pg era was just used as a mock by the crowd. But it is still accepted to begin sine 2008. Likewise the term "Reality Era" has been coined since 2011, and WWE just accepted the term in 2014. Is their any other WWE source other than that simple poll that uses the term PG Era and states that The Reality Era begin in 2014? If so I will drop the matter and accept the change without any more objection, although I do agree what majority editors say regarding this is what counts. Dilbaggg (talk) 05:19, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

I will list the Triple H 3/24/14 youtube video quotes again for you:

"Maybe I start the Reality Era"... "Maybe as of right now this moment this is the beginning of the Reality Era"

There are no other sources but there doesn't need to be any other sources as again, for the last time now, and as mentioned above, anything from WWE themselves trumps these other secondary sources. Not to mention there are several secondary sources we have seen that show 2014-2016 as well. Your own personal opinion of this is getting in the way, and believe me I can understand that sometimes. As an example I 100% feel that the ECW Championship should not count as a world championship at all but because WWE notes it as such in areas of their website, Wikipedia counts it as one and I had to accept it. With this topic though, even without the WWE source, I know as a huge WWE fan myself that the real Reality Era was in fact 2014-2016, even if there were some signs and shades of it beforehand. WWE was still very much PG Era-ish through 2013.

Side notes: Bringing up the Universe Era/PG Era discussion is irrelevant here, but regardless, WWE does not cite it as the Universe Era, officially. Visual Concepts, the makers of the WWE2K14 game, does. I'm sure they got some sort of permission from WWE to use that name for the game as it may sound better, but ultimately, PG Era has been accepted by WWE and an overwhelming majority of it's fans.

68.196.72.173 (talk) 13:29, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

68.196.72.173 All right I am accepting your point and will revert it to the 2014-2016 timeline, confirm to my message, do you want it to be reverted that way? Dilbaggg (talk) 05:09, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes, thanks, but I will change it on the actual Reality Era article. If you can please note this on the 'History of WWE' talk section so I can be permitted to clean that up as well that would be great. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.72.173 (talk) 12:35, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

68.196.72.173 All right its done, I have reverted the article to June 2020 status, the History of WWE article now has the Reality Era timeline set from 2014-2016. Dilbaggg (talk) 13:27, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you68.196.72.173 (talk) 14:16, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

I have to ask: why do we care? Seriously, a two year or so period of relative insignificance in the history of the company doesn't need to be significantly defined by their attempt (and failure) to brand it with a buzzword name (after that buzzword had already lost any broader pop culture significance, I might add). In short, we don't need to parrot WWE marketing speak every article. It fails NPOV, frankly, and gives undue weight to the company's self-promotion. oknazevad (talk) 14:17, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Completely agree. It's also not particularly notable outside of WWE's own branding. I don't think either of the articles adequately explain the significance of this period. Instead it just reads as a drawn-out bit of history. What makes this notable, in a way that isn't WP:OR? — Czello 14:32, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Agree. During the discussion, I felt this maybe is too into the WP:PROMOTION. I have read about the Reality Era, but not so much about the New Era, just WWE.com itself and thesportster. Also, I think the eras are defined by third party sources, not by the promotion itself. I don't see not read any difference between Reality Era and New Era. Kofi Kingston used the real life feud with Orton during his feud as WWE Champion. Daniel Bryan used real life behavior as par of the eco-warrior gimmick --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 14:44, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

I have edited the article a little bit. I think the article focus too much on WWE in-universe and no notable stuff. I don't see this deep coverage in previous eras, like Attitude or New Generation. We are talking about WWE during a time period, but no mention about Saudi Arabia, but Bobby Lashley return instead? No mention about All Elite Wrestling, but The Hardys returned? No mention of NXT grown and NXT UK, but The Shield reuinited in 2017? Too much focus on what happens in WWE Programming, but no in WWE as a COMPANY. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 15:02, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

FWIW, I've never actually heard this term before this conversation - probably not notable as stand alone. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:44, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

AfD

As it's tangentially related to the above debate, you should all know that I've nominated the standalone article for deletion as it's largely a duplication of what's on the History of WWE article. You can participate in the AfD here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Reality Era. — Czello 06:01, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Comment: I support the deletion, 2014-2016 is too short time to cover for an article. Dilbaggg (talk) 08:08, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

But there is a difference and WWE does define these eras as seen below. WWE also made a big push for the "New Era" following WM32.

• https://www.wwe.com/polls/what-is-your-favorite-wwe-era — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.72.173 (talk) 15:33, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
• What's the difference? Again, we're just repeating what WWE says. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 15:38, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

• • Yes, what HHH Pedrigree says. WWE can call it what they like, but that doesn't make it notable. — Czello 15:46, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Ribbing

Hi everybody. So, I was looking at the Glossary of professional wrestling terms talk page a couple days ago, and I saw someone suggesting an article be written on ribbing in wrestling. The comment was years old, but I thought it seemed like a good idea, so I wrote one. It's in my Sandbox if you want to read it. It turns out that there was once an article on ribbing, but User:Nikki311 changed it to a redirect to the Glossary I already linked. That was years ago, too. This is the first article I've written, so I would hope it passes AfD, but I'd like it to at least get a chance, because I think 9 words in a glossary is way less than what this could be. I left a comment about this on Nikki311's Talk Page, but haven't heard back, and it doesn't seem that she's the easiest person to get a reply from. Does anyone have any advice on what I should do? "Yes...It's Raining" 21:35, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

We have a practical joke article already, which is basically pranking and ribbing combined, just in modern carny talk. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:55, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

We do have practical joke, but ribs are usually specific to long trips on the road. I can't imagine there wouldn't be enough to satisfy GNG. The previous loose consensus was that the article back in 2007 was too much cruft, but if a decent article was written at Rib (professional wrestling) I wouldn't want it to be redirected. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:10, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

I think that has to do with wrestlling holding onto '30s grifter dope for way longer than the rest of the world, and wrestlers simply happening to do everything on (at least near) the road. Back in the day, ribs could strike anywhere goofs, capers or hijinks could. But yeah, no objections to anything, just food for thought. InedibleHulk (talk) 11:43, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi again, everyone, and thanks for your replies. So, I'm not saying what I've written is perfect, because I'm sure it's not, but I think it's certainly better than some list article. I think you guys can see what's in my Sandbox just like I can, right? I assumed everyone would go to my userpage/Sandbox and could see what I put up, but since someone mentioned linking to it, here you go! Again, I'm sure it could be improved upon greatly - and feel free to give me any honest opinions, my feelings will not be hurt! - but I think it sounds like what I've written is a pretty big step up from what was there ten years ago."Yes...It's Raining" 15:24, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Edited to add: After reading portions of Wikipedia:Bold 3 or 4 times, I decided that the right approach is to put it up, as I'm positive it's not a particularly offensive article, etc., and is well-sourced, etc. and, again, not a list, and let someone revert it if they think it needs to be. So that's what I'm about to do. No disrespect is meant to any of your opinions, and feel free to do what you think is appropriate, but I'm going to do what I understand to be what's recommended in these circumstances and go and replace the redirect with what I wrote. "Yes...It's Raining" 15:43, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

It looks like a good start. I think the biggest concern in its current form is that the sources may not be reliable sources per WP:RS. I would recommend using the search forms at Wikipedia:WikiProject Professional wrestling/Sources (substituting in your search terms in the quotation marks, and using a variety of terms: rib, ribbing, prank, practical joke, jokester, etc., possibly in conjunction with specific wrestlers who were known to do these sorts of things). There should be reliable sources for these, and I think it would be possible to write a paragraph about how this sometimes includes defecation (e.g. in Jerry Lawler's crown, Alundra Blayze's bag, etc.). I don't know if popculture.com would be a reliable source, but there is an article at https://popculture.com/wwe/news/scott-hall-most-disgusting-prank-wwe-history/ that discusses this prank: In wrestling, pooping in a peer's bag is the ultimate "gotcha" and wrestlers have used this trick for decades as a backwards way to police their locker room...."Fuji was most known for the s--t rib and he passed it on to Curt who passed it on to X-Pac, and if they don't like you, they just s--t in your bag. And sometimes it would be multiple s--ts. It would be different textures and it was like I never really participate in any of that. I was aware it was happening. I never s--t in anybody's bag," explained [Scott] Hall...."I never wanted to see it because some guys would walk around and go, 'wow, look' to me and I'd go, 'no, I believe you'. Then, they'd s--t in your bag if they didn't like you and depending on how you sold it, they even did it to Madusa, Alundra Blayze. She came in with a little bit of an attitude and she got s--t ribbed. Sunny and Chris Candido, Skip and Sunny, ooh, one time on a European tour, they got s--t ribbed," Hall remembered...."And Curt would do the upper decker. He would go in your room, if he could get in your house, he'd like it even better," illustrated Hall. He would go in your hotel room and lift the back of the toilet, like the part where the flushing stuff goes, he'd s--t in there and put the lid back on and you'd be smelling it for days!" If you (or anyone) could find a reliable source for some of this information, it would help build up the article. There are also the personal attacks that are often categorized as ribs--Vince McMahon naming Mike Jones "Virgil" as a prank/attack on Dusty Rhodes, WCW naming Mike Jones "Vincent" to get back at McMahon, wrestlers in TNA forming the Voodoo Kin Mafia as a prank/attack on Vincent K. McMahon. That could make for a paragraph, and all of those name-related "ribs" could be sourced to the WrestleCrap books/site. GaryColemanFan (talk) 16:11, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Awesome, I definitely agree with you that it can be expanded and improved and appreciate your suggestions on how to do so. I have to admit I'm pretty reassured that you see it as a good start, since it took some work. I'll try to build it up and see what I can find using the links you recommended at some point later on if noone else beats me to it. Thanks!"Yes...It's Raining" 17:01, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Hello. I took a look at your article, and it is better than the crufty list that was there before. I agree with Gary that some of the sources don't seem reliable, particularly the independently published book about Owen Hart. I vaguely remember Foley discussing ribs in some of his books, so you might want to look through those if you have them available. Also, the article focuses heavily on WWE, so if you could add some examples from other companies (especially from other countries) that would also be an improvement. Nikki♥311 08:53, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Ewrestlingnews, Yard Barker, Pro Wrestling Scoops - reliable sources?

Trying to develop a community consensus on these and a few other dubious sources. Please weigh in on the discussion here. Thanks. Dory Funk (talk) 16:07, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Level 5 vital articles

Earlier this year, we discussed swapping some of entries for Pro Wrestling vital articles. Since then, they have increased the number of slots we have to fill. That mans Giant Baba and Mildred Burke, who we discussed adding, are now there. Others like Savage, Cena, Bret Hart, Benoit and The Undertaker, who we discussed removing, are probably safe. They gave us even more slots, and those were filled by Chyna, Jerry Lawler and Stu Hart. These were not names we discussed last time this topic came up. Should their places go to others we discussed, like Mil Mascaras or Blue Demon?LM2000 (talk) 20:45, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Might I suggest Triple H or Batista? These lists will always likely be WWF centric. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:58, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

I prefer Masacaras and Demon over Triple H and Batista. These are huge icons in Mexican Lucha Libre. What about Jushin Thunder Liger? He is very relevant as one of the best cruiserweights in history. I think we should avoid WWE-centrism. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 22:09, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

The reason Starship.paint started the first discussion was because the original list was WWE-centric and 14 out of 25 of the current list spent a significant portion of their career in WWE. I think Blue Demon and Mil Mascaras are fine for the list, but I'd put someone like Sting on there before Triple H or Batista.LM2000 (talk) 05:12, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Mantaur! InedibleHulk (talk) 06:39, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

And for the Mexicans, Luchasaurus! There's no denying he's huge, especially compared to the best cruiserweights in history. Also far bigger than the majority of actual dinosaurs known to science, just not the popular ones. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:49, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

@LM2000, HHH Pedrigree, Lee Vilenski, and InedibleHulk: - (1) I'd put Blue Demon in over Jerry Lawler, as Blue was more prominent in his country than Lawler, and Blue is definitely above Mascaras. (2) Chyna definitely shouldn't be on there, if you want to keep having a woman there, I'd propose Manami Toyota, named by the Washington Post [7] as perhaps the greatest female wrestler of all time. Dave Meltzer [8] concurred on Toyota, may have been the greatest woman wrestler of all-time ... one of the first generation of women stars respected by the male wrestling fans, on a par if not superior to any male pro wrestler of the 1990s as far as athleticism and garnering a reaction from fans. If not a woman, but keeping it WWE-centric, I'd have Rey Mysterio, arguably the greatest of all time to wear a mask according to PWTorch, arguably the most famous masked wrestler to ever perform in modern-day professional wrestling according to Sports Illustrated, and who is also the most influential wrestler on this generation of wrestlers (and it's not even close), according to Meltzer. [9] Not sure about Stu Hart. To accommodate all three of the above, I'd take out Roddy Piper, who has never even won a top WWF or WCW title. starship.paint (talk) 11:40, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Isn't this based on being important/notable, rather than wrestling talent though? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:56, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

@Lee Vilenski: - I would think that the current rise in women's wrestling in the U.S. had its roots in Japan's joshi scene (Japan achieved parity in gender earlier than the U.S., though joshi did fade in prominence in the 21st century) Did Mildred Burke or Fabulous Moolah achieve that? How much was Chyna an influence? starship.paint (talk) 12:07, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

I suggest removing Chyna, Lawler, and Benoit. Possible replacements are Blue Demon, Mil Mascaras, Triple H, The Rock. GaryColemanFan (talk) 14:48, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

@GaryColemanFan: - Rock is listed on Level 5 as an actor. starship.paint (talk) 15:06, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Strange. I search for "Rock" and "Johnson" and still somehow missed him. I guess that simplifies my list. From my original comment, I would remove the three and add the other three. GaryColemanFan (talk) 16:19, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Aja Kong, Kyoko Inoue and Bull Nakano would, have and typically should eat Toyota for breakfast. But yeah, she keeps fighting back regardless, good on her! Mayumi Ozaki, Jaguar Yokota and Akira Hokuto are probably a notch higher on the old vitality pole, though. Mysterio transcends WWE, I think, seems important everywhere. I don't know, this game's weird. How are Stu Hart and The Undertaker similar again? InedibleHulk (talk) 17:33, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Wait...where the hell is Shawn Michaels? What kind of Internet Wrestling Community remembers Mildred Burke, Stu Hart and Frank Gotch before the man who made initials cool for guys like HHH, Y2J, nWo and JTG? Speaking of new world order, where are Nash, Hall and Bischoff, the men who made lady wrestler millionaires an achievable pipe dream (as opposed to some bullshit Moolah fed her slaves to keep them in the van indefinitely). Even "the boys" (Al Snow, Gangrel, Brock Lesnar) probably appreciate the ratings war and guaranteed money for nothing. But yeah, Rikidozan. He's cool, if you're into that "Kintaro Oki Meets Mitsuo Momota" kind of thing. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:08, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

In brief voting terms Replace Savage and Piper with Diesel and Michaels. And maybe Trade Stu for Abdullah to lessen WWE taint. Least urgently, any woman we actually remember for Mildred Burke. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:25, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

I oppose all of these suggestions and all of these reasons. It's not personal. I just disagree. GaryColemanFan (talk) 01:17, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

No hard feelings, I personally don't even grasp the concept of a vital article. Just figure if you don't know HBK, you won't know the Montreal Screwjob, the Curtain Call, the Barbershop Window, the Heartbreak Hotel, the Boyhood Dream, the Backlot Brawl, the Beach Blast, the Bash at the Beach, Sonny Beach, Sunny Days, Days of Thunder or Johnny Nitro! That's a lot of stuff, some of it directly affecting Hogan, Piper and Savage. Kay Noble, June Byers and Rockin' Robin, not so much. The nWo and Stampede were big in Japan though; I nominate Dynamite Kid, Masahiro Chono and The Great Muta. And also Negro Casas, El Felino and Heavy Metal (or whoever our Mexican students think was better, I don't really "get" lucha). I'm still with you on putting The Game over, Gary, 110%! Just not over Benoit. Bury Lawler. And I'm sold on Manami Toyota, Starship; she may not be the best of the '90s, but she was often in the best matches, which Chyna really wasn't ever. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:56, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

A very good point, and a good reminder of how little I should get emotionally invested in the debate. I don't really get the purpose of vital articles. Are they the ones I would point a non-wrestling fan to in order to get a sense of what professional wrestling is? Are they the ones I would suggest putting into a printed book if someone wanted a paper summary of Wikipedia? Neither of those thoughts really matter to me, so I'm not sure that I really care who ends up on the list. No matter what argument I consider (Triple H over Michaels because non-wrestling fans would have a better sense of who Triple H is, but keep Stu Hart because of his contributions as more of a "builder" despite the fact that non-wrestling fans wouldn't have a clue who he is, and many wrestling fans would only know him as Bret and Owen's dad), I can't even pretend that my logic is consistent. GaryColemanFan (talk) 15:07, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Minor quibble, but Stu Hart is still quite known in and around his old territory to people who were merely aware that wrestling ran here (there were only a few channels in his day). He's even in the (online) news today. Seems Vince never got around to the "buying" part of the Stampede buyout. InedibleHulk (talk) 19:02, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Wait a second...why are we cutting anybody? The American TV host fans have 118 very important people to adore. I'm at least renouncing my pledge to replace The Macho King in 2020 with any Fourth Horseman, brother! InedibleHulk (talk) 05:29, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Count

• IN: Blue Demon (4) - LM2000, HHH Pedrigree, starship.paint, GaryColemanFan
• IN: Mil Mascaras (3) - LM2000, HHH Pedrigree, GaryColemanFan
• IN: Triple H (3) - Lee Vilenski, GaryColemanFan, InedibleHulk
• IN: Manami Toyota (3) - starship.paint, InedibleHulk, LM2000
• IN: Rey Mysterio (2) - starship.paint, InedibleHulk
• IN: Batista (1) - Lee Vilenski
• IN: Jushin Thunder Liger (1) - HHH Pedrigree

• OUT: Jerry Lawler (5) - starship.paint, GaryColemanFan, InedibleHulk, LM2000, HHH Pedrigree
• OUT: Chyna (4) - starship.paint, GaryColemanFan, LM2000, HHH Pedrigree
• OUT: Roddy Piper (2) - starship.paint, InedibleHulk
• OUT: Chris Benoit (1) - GaryColemanFan
• OUT: Mildred Burke (1) - InedibleHulk
• OUT: Stu Hart (1) - LM2000
• OUT: Verne Gagne (?)

InedibleHulk - add your own name to the list where needed. I can't tell when you were serious above. @HHH Pedrigree, LM2000, and Lee Vilenski: - we need to hear from you who to remove. I'm sure we won't be removing/adding anyone with just one vote. For every person you vote to add, please vote to add one person to remove. starship.paint (talk) 04:21, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

All twelve in bold were serious, but only hopped on existing bandwagons. If anyone else likes a dark horse of mine, feel free to put us on the board. I replaced Stu with Mrs. Burke. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:37, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

I've re-added Stu because I wasn't sure if LM2000/Lee/HHH would want to remove him. starship.paint (talk) 05:11, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

And I added Verne, to even the sides. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:46, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

I've added my three votes and anti-votes. Can we have more than three? I'd again suggest Sting as a North American wrestler that hasn't been represented yet. Replace Frank Gotch with George Hackenschmidt to keep the international flavor and nobody will notice.LM2000 (talk)

@LM2000: - we definitely can have more than three votes and anti-votes, just that they have to balance. We can change more than three wrestlers, I believe, just that we shouldn't change if only one person supports that change. Anything with three supports seems good to me? As long as the votes and anti-votes are balanced. They aren't balanced now, but we're still waiting for HHH and Lee's anti-votes. starship.paint (talk) 09:10, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Well, If I have to choose 3 anti votes, they will be Chyna, and Lawler. Since Jushin isn't too popular, Can I remove my Liger vote and leave it with two anti votes, two votes? --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 12:57, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

@HHH Pedrigree: - definitely, 2-2, 1-1, 4-4, 5-5, all fine. starship.paint (talk) 13:22, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Vital articles project procedures

Hey guys, I went over to read Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5#Introduction and there are some rules for changing articles. It turns out that you'll need to vote over there as well (at least four votes to make a change). From the above, it's clear that Lawler and Chyna have the most removal votes, so I nominated them already. Blue Demon has the most add votes, so I nominated him, the rest is currently a tie, but since we nominated to remove Chyna, I have nominated Toyota, who is also female. I haven't done any other nomination because the third addition/removal is not so clear, and in any case, it wouldn't be easy to nominate someone I personally did not support. Things for us to do:

1. Vote on the currently listed proposals at the Vital articles talk page
2. Decide on whether to have a third removal - Piper? Stu Hart? Benoit? Burke? Shift your votes around? Or no third removal?
3. After the third removal is decided, we have to coalesce behind either Triple H or Mil Mascaras. If we want both, we need a fourth removal.
4. Write nominations on the third/fourth removal/additions. starship.paint (talk) 14:36, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

@HHH Pedrigree, InedibleHulk, GaryColemanFan, and LM2000: starship.paint (talk) 14:40, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Don't treat them like a woman, don't treat them like a man. Just treat them if we know them as "vital" for who and what they am. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:24, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

@Lee Vilenski: - your two removal votes are yet to be in. starship.paint (talk) 14:40, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

I'll tag GuzzyG here, who recently posted on the other page and may be unaware of this discussion.LM2000 (talk) 16:32, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Suggestion re: professional wrestling biographical articles

In light of the recent event with Sonya Deville, I would suggest that we cease using the "resides" field in professional wrestling biographical articles to avoid publicising this information. Thoughts welcome. McPhail (talk) 18:44, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

We only publish what reliable sources state. If there's not a reliable source that states this, we need to remove it. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:52, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

True, but this isn’t a reliable sourcing issue. Recently a man tried to break into the wrestlers’ home in an attempt to kidnap her. I believe the suggestion is that for protection from future stalkers the infobox for profession wrestlers shouldn’t list what city they currently live in. I personally don’t see much use since I quite sure a potential stalker could easily find such info even if Wikipedia didn’t mention it and there’s no evidence they this particular stalker got any pertinent information from the Wikipedia article.--69.157.254.92 (talk) 06:22, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

We don't list someone's address. This isn't surpressed information. If it's public knowledge, we do no harm in mentioning it. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:26, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

That's not the case - Wikipedia can amplify information. For example, where some editors have used copyright filings as sources - that's taking information that is technically in the public domain, but in reality very low profile, and making it much more visible. Also, per WP:BLPPRIVACY, addresses should not be included in biographical articles. Town/city names are part of the address and per the policy should not be included. McPhail (talk) 11:41, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

"Dayton, Ohio" is not a "Postal Address" which is specifically mentioned in link provided. And you are going about it wrong, ask at WP:BLPPRIVACY who probably have dealt with this question before. MPJ-DK (talk) 22:07, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Agree with MPJ and McPhail. I understand that Wikipedia can amplify information, but Dayton, Ohio or Orlando, Florida, it's to generic and big, not the full adress. I know Angelico lives in Barcelona, but the city is huge and I not going to find him with that information. Maybe the best idea it's to talk with the people of BLPRIVACY, they will know what to do. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 11:22, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

I think everyone wants to avoid a Rebecca Schaeffer situation, but the home cities of celebrities are frequently reported and subject to common knowledge. In the Deville case, mainstream media have covered the story and reported her home city and we kind of have to include it in her biography. However, articles should not include their full address.LM2000 (talk) 16:41, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree. The only exception I can think of would be Hart House, as the house itself is notable enough for its own article, and the specific location is widely known and discussed in reliable sources. GaryColemanFan (talk) 17:05, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Clarification

I just want to double check something so I'm not barking up the wrong tree. You guys only like stuff when it comes to factions or stables to be what is reflected on screen right? I've been battling a bunch of IP accounts who keep adding some Twitch streamers to The Dark Order because Evil Uno made them "members" as part of a charity stream. --MattBinYYC (talk) 22:17, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

@MattBinYYC: Sounds like you should request protection at WP:RPP. - Galatz גאליץ^{שיחה Talk} 14:00, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

can you include in a persona section? For example, Dark Order operates as a cult. As part of the character, they include real life people after doing some stuff like... HHH Pedrigree (talk) 14:07, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Steve Corino and WWC Puerto Rico Championship

I have seen two different dates for Steve Corino's debut. The one on the article which is April 6, 1994 and the one on Cagematch which is April 6, 1995. Regardless of that, he is listed as having won the WWC Puerto Rico Championship on December 2, 1992 when he defeated Miguel Pérez, Jr. in a tournament final to win the vacant title. So how could Corino win the title when he wasn't even in wrestling at that time? This needs to corrected. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 21:20, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

It was an unsourced addition in 2018: [10]. It is not listed in Royal Duncan and Gary Will's Wrestling Title Histories, and it is not listed on the Solie site. The Duncan/Will book says Castillo won it on Oct. 12/91, then the title was vacated when he left the promotion on Dec. 16/91. It says he was again billed as champion upon his return in 1994, but it doesn't list any other champions until El Bronco's win on Nov. 18/95 (but indicates with an ellipsis that the history may be incomplete). The Solie site shows Jake Roberts winning it some time in 1993. GaryColemanFan (talk) 01:10, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

@GaryColemanFan: Wrestling-Titles.com says that Huracan Castillo Jr. defeated Hector Guerrero in a tournament final and the WWC version became vacant on December 16, 1991 when Castillo jumped to AWF. AWF, by the looks of things, had their own Puerto Rico Championship. Jake Roberts won their version of it. Not sure why Jake Roberts needs to be listed in the title history since the article is about the WWC version not the AWF version. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!}

Champion's pictures

Hello. I have one question. Do we have a policy or suggestion about pictures in championships articles? I'm saying this because, during the last months, I have seen several edition about this. I have readed our Style Guide but I can't find anything, so I was thinking to write a list with suggestions. For example, I have seen a picture of Jericho 10 years ago as WHC and Ambrose under the Shield attire as US Champ to illustrate the AEW World Championship, which I think is wrong (wrong title, wrong gimmick and picture to old). I would recomend these pictures. 1, Ideal picture, the champ with the title. 2, current picture of the champ (or when the reign took place, a picture of 2011 for a 2011 reign). 3, old picture of the champ. Suggestion, try to avoid pictures with other titles. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 09:22, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

I 100% agree that we should use a pic of them with the title, if one is available. I don't believe anyone would disagree with that. However, although it's not preferred, a pic showing them with another title isn't wrong, but sometimes a pic of them with another title is the most recent we have and more representative of their current character. We just need to clarify what title it is. Nothing wrong with that.

I would suggest it this way:

• 1. Picture of wrestler with the title.
  • Older design of the title is acceptable if a pic of the wrestler with the newer design is not available, but clarify which older version they're holding.
• 2. If that's not available, the most recent pic of them in their gear. Some wrestler's have had the same gear or been the same character for years, for example, John Cena, so if by chance the most recent pic we had of Cena was from 2015, that would be acceptable because he's still the same.
  • Only use a pic of them with a different title if it is the only pic we have of them in their current gear, and clarify what title they're holding.
• 3. If that's not available, a pic that closely represents their current character.
  • Similar to the sub-point of the last, only use a pic of them with a different title if that is all that's available in this category, and clarify what title they're holding.
• 4. If nothing above is available, then whatever pic we do have so long as it doesn't show them as a completely different character. Those red carpet-type pics that some of you like to use despite having a better pic available, those could fall into this category. --JDC808 ♫ 10:02, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I was on the beach. About the points, I agree with most of them. However, I see no problem with the "red carpet" photos. The idea is to show the champion, if the red carpet picture shows them (clear face) I don't see the problem. I prefer a good red carpet before a bad in character photo. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 15:40, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Moose's TNA World Heavyweight Championship reign

Hello I'm bringing this topic forward in hopes of figuring out a solution. At Rebellion (2020), Moose declared himself the TNA World Heavyweight Champion since Tessa Blanchard couldn't defend her World Championship. Since then the title has been used on television but still hasn't been announced as an "Official" championship in Impact Wrestling and is being used as a separate belt different from Impact's World Championship. And for that reason I found that under these circumstances Moose's TNA World Heavyweight Championship reign would fall under the Category:Unsanctioned championships so for that reason I placed the category under the TNA World Heavyweight Championship page and since then User:Oknazevad has been telling me the belt is sanctioned and is official but due to the way the belt is being used on television i have been disagreeing with his statements. Hopefully a resolution can be found now. Eerie Holiday (talk) 18:10, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

You got my position backwards. I say it's not an official championship. The TNA World Championship is the Impact World Championship. It's the same championship having undergone a few name changes in 2017–2018. My point is that Moose may be carrying the old belt for that title, but belts are not championships, and Moose isn't the champion of anything. That's why I oppose including him in the list of current champions or in the title history for the Impact World Championship. oknazevad (talk) 19:42, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

The belt is being used and defended as a different title and under the definition of Unsanctioned Championships – (which are defended in matches for a promotion, but which are not officially recognized as a legitimate title by that promotion.) That is clearly how they are using the TNA World Heavyweight Championship on Impact. Moose is walking around defending a Unsanctioned title separate from the Impact World Championship. The version of the TNA World Heavyweight Championship Moose is defending is unsanctioned. Eerie Holiday (talk) 12:39, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Well, there are several wrestlers who claimed they are the "real" champion (Shawn Michaels IC, JBL WWE reigns when he lost against Cena, Booker T claiming he was the TNA World champion, Samy Zayn returned with the IC title, MVP claiming he was the real USA champ). I don't know if they defended the title. About Moose, Impact uses the title (not like, for example, Zack Ryder's Internet championship) and promotes matches, even if they aren't sancionated in kayfabe. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 15:35, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

It's clearly being used as a separate title from the Impact World Championship. So would it be considered a unofficial unsanctioned championship or should his reign as champion be counted somewhere? This source Josh Mathews Interviews Moose - IMPACT May 19, 2020 Mathews calls out the fact that the title isn't legitimate as Moose disputes those claims, showing its a separate title from the Impact World Championship. I also feel this could pattern what WWE has done with WWE Cruiserweight Championship (1996–2007) and NXT Cruiserweight Championship. Eerie Holiday (talk) 23:09, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

@Eerie Holiday: You can't really do that though. WWE created an entirely new Cruiserweight Championship with a new lineage. The TNA World Heavyweight Championship is the Impact Wrestling World Heavyweight Championship. Impact didn't create a new title with a new lineage. It was just a name change. When WWWF/WWF rejoined the NWA in the '70s, they reverted back to calling the title the WWF Heavyweight Championship. They didn't create a new title and new lineage. It was just a name change. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 18:28, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

User:Fishhead2100 not doing anything just a little observation in likeness. Also if you've been watching Impact they are using it as its own title separate from the Impact World Championship and are currently in a storyline with the title where EC3 wants to destroy the TNA history so that the Impact history can stand alone. This was all about if the TNA World Heavyweight Championship was being used as an unofficial Championship which it is. The whole Cruiserweight comment was just saying TNA and Impact are being used as two different titles like the Cruiserweight titles they are two different titles. What Impact Wrestling is doing is acknowledging two different lineages with EC3 saying on TV Impact needs to stand alone and TNA's history needs to be erased. Eerie Holiday (talk) 20:45, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

@Eerie Holiday: Firstly, you ping someone you are responding to. Don't just link to their user page. Secondly, Moose isn't officially recognized on Impact Wrestling's website or broadcasts as being champion. This discussion is redundant. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 13:57, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

@Fishhead2100: I think your missing the reasoning for this discussion. This is about weather or not is the title being used as an Unofficial Championship and unsanctioned title. Someone was saying it's official and I was saying it's unofficial also Moose IMPACT Profile literally his whole profile shows him with the TNA World Heavyweight Championship they are recognizing his use of the Championship from profile pic to videos to pretty much his whole photo gallery. Eerie Holiday (talk) 12:59, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

@Eerie Holiday: AEW has Brian Cage with the FTW Championship on their roster page. That doesn't make it an officially sanctioned title. It was brought back for a storyline purpose. It's like the Million Dollar Championship. That was only storyline and character based. It was never officially sanctioned. If they were sanctioning the TNA version of the World Heavyweight Championship, Moose would be listed under the champions. So no, it's not officially sanctioned. So he is not official recognized as champion. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 21:02, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

@Fishhead2100: That's exactly the same thing iv been saying it's being used as an unsanctioned championship. Someone was arguing with me saying it's official which brought me to bring the topic here and seemed like the person just have up on the discussion. Eerie Holiday (talk) 13:53, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

@Eerie Holiday: It was the way you were wording it. The FTW Championship is listed in the titles of AEW just with a note that isn't not officially sanctioned/recognized. That's always an option. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 18:25, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

@Fishhead2100: I actually listed it the same way as the FTW Championship a few times but it kept being removed so I just stopped fighting it. Eerie Holiday (talk) 21:20, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

@Eerie Holiday: Even though the Million Dollar Championship was never officially sanctioned, it is listed in the list of former championships in WWE. The storyline was that Ted Dibiase bought it himself. That's what Taz did with the FTW Championship. The TNA Championship should be listed with a note stating it's not officially sanctioned as per usual. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 05:26, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

Jerry Brown (not Governor Moonbeam)

Noticed this while adding an entry to the recent deaths page. I'm seeing several social media posts stating that Jerry Brown died on September 15 and we're still pretending he's not notable, despite being the senior member of one of the top tag teams during an entire decade. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 05:33, 18 September 2020 (UTC)