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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk | contribs) at 15:41, 23 December 2021 (→Discuss: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Croats, Serbs? Why not just Bunjevci?

I have no idea how in the world has this discussion gone to a debate about the assimilation of the Bunjevci people, either to the Croatian or Serbian side. This disgusting spillage of local dirty politics has really no place on Wikipedia. Why on earth is this article a part of "a series of articles on Croats"? Vlahs, for example, are present both in Serbia, Romania and in a few other countries, and they're are most certainly not classified as Romanians. This too goes for Roma, Bosniaks, etc. The Bunjevci are an ethnic group, with their own dialect, their own cuisine and their own unique history. If, due to major year-long pressures from both Serbian and Croatian sides, should some of them choose to switch over to another ethnicity, that's their choice.

BureX (talk) 00:28, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is not nearly as simple as you try to portray it. "Vlachs" are not present in Romania under that name, and they certainly are classified as Romanians at least by some. In both cases, we have large subgroups which moved from their original environment and "spun off", before their original group underwent the period of nationalism and building of a nation-state. Both Vlachs and Bunjevci (and Serb/Montenegrin Montenergrins) have the same problem where their primary ethnic affiliation is ambiguous or mixed, to different extents. You cannot just put large groups people in drawers: "Croats go here, Bunjevci go there". How come that there are about equal numbers of Croats and Bunjevci on Serbian census, when we know that most of these people are Bunjevci by origin? How come that Democratic Alliance of Croats in Vojvodina and its spinoffs operates in Subotica, heartland of Bunjevci?
As I said, however, we should somewhat limit the consideration about the ethnic identity, it ate the whole article. No such user (talk) 08:49, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There's that politics talk again... most went the Croatian route due to the availability of a better passport, also most likely chasing hope in which their rights would get extended as much as the Hungarian minority's did in the recent years. Minorities who have an independent state behind them usually get a bigger slice of the cake. I'm not willing to decide which side does a Bunjevac choose... what I'm advocating here is that this should not be an article labelled "Part of a series of articles on Croats", that's it. BureX (talk) 20:49, 10 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

They are a separate ethnic group which lives mainly in Serbia,where they are recognized as such.They are not Croats.The fact is nearly 17 000 people declared themselves as Bunjevci as a separate ethnic group,and that has to be respected.

94.189.197.200 (talk) 07:51, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I believe if you actually read the article carefully you will find (if it really interests you) that Bunjevci are considered both: a sub-group of Croats and there are also those who declare themselves as a separate Bunjevac identity, but still nevertheless closely related to Croats. Now what exactly is the problem you have with the categories you keep removing which were there for months and starting an "edit war" with a bunch of other users trying to maintain the quality and balance already established in this article? Wikipedia does not work in a way that you can enforce your POV on something, it's more-less part of a consensus made on a common sense logic and available facts. If you are really interested in contributing to Wikipedia compose yourself and stop this BS. Shokatz (talk) 05:07, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

All Montenegrins declared themseleves as Serbs before WW2,and even now 1/3 of them consider them Serbs,but now they are seen as a separate ethnic group,and nobody says they are a subgroup of Serbs.

24.135.66.10 (talk) 07:54, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know how is your comparison valid for any reason. We are dealing with the situation at hand not what it was before. If Serbs in Montenegro would declare themselves both as Montenegrins and Serbs you would have a point, but Serbs in Montenegro declare specifically as Serbs unlike great part of Bunjevci who declare themselves both as Bunjevci and part of the Croatian nation in broad and narrow sense. And btw. I am watching your edits very closely. You are deleting entire sections of various articles without any explanation or discussion. If you continue I believe you won't be able to edit articles for a very long time. It's up to you. Shokatz (talk) 14:16, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Poređenje je sasvim na mestu,više puta sam pisao o tome,samo kreten ne bi shvatio,pretnje blokiranjem su ti vrlo jadne, prvo ti se ne pitaš za to, drugo adrese za menjaju svakih par dana tako ne bi imalo efekta.The comparison is perfect some Montenegrins consider themselves Serbs,some consider themselves as Montenegrins and some consider themselves as Montenegrins as a subgroup of Serb people.How come you don't understand?Also very rude to threaten someone with blocking,it won't work.


24.135.66.10 (talk) 14:25, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This article is obviosly with strong Croatian Nationalism influence, which denies existing of Bunjevci identity, so I added the fact that only some of them declare themselves like croats, not everyone like Croatian Ultra-Nationalist writes.

Actually reading it helps, for the start:
Bunjevci who remained in Bosnia and Herzegovina, as well as those in modern Croatia, today [...] declare themselves as Croats.
Do you really dispute that? No such user (talk) 08:10, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Serbians put nationalistic pressure on Bunjevci to declare themselves as a separate entity from Croats. They are Croats and I am sure any cultural anthropologist would agree. Just like in Croatia, Serbs are often under pressure to deny their culture and identify as "Yugolavs", but the vast majority of them that identify themselves that way are Serbs. Both sides are equally as guilty of trying to diminish the other in this respect. 184.149.5.3 (talk) 15:54, 9 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The thing about Bunjevci is they weren't people of another ethnicity. They were named Bunjevci by Serbians from Vojvodina, just like Croatians and Bosnians called orthodox people Vlachs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.180.106.198 (talk) 16:50, 17 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Bunjevci are Croats. Vlachs are Vlachs. They were brainwashed by Serbian ortodox church — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.252.241.58 (talk) 15:49, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Bunjevci are originally Vlachs from Herzegovina. They were not Croats, nor Vlachs are Serbs. The ethnicity is a complex problem in the Balkan.--Crovata (talk) 16:35, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Bunjevci are catholic Serbians

Please take a look at Austro-HUngarian census and map made in 1910. by Count Teleki https:/upwiki/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Ethnographic_map_of_hungary_1910_by_teleki_carte_rouge.jpg They are strictly identified as Serb Catholics

Pixius (talk) 22:45, 23 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of claims made on this page with no sources. Truthdelivery (talk) 21:57, 29 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Language

Bunjevci are ethnic Croats that fled from Herzegovina. As such their native language is Croatian. Living in another country or switching nationality due to political reasons doesn't affect native language as a whole. (It does only on personal level and doesn't reflect on the whole group.) SerVasi (talk) 20:03, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Croatian is only one standardized form of Serbo-Croatian. It is unquestionable that Bunjevac dialect is a subset of Serbo-Croatian linguistic spectrum. It is questionable whether Bunjevac is a subset of Croatian, which is a sociolingiuistic construct. No such user (talk) 11:31, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@No such user: Its not even remotely questionable.Its a fact accepted by the whole world.(except 1 country) SerVasi (talk) 15:17, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Do not spin please. Bunjevci mostly live in Serbia - therefore the opinion of scholars and government of that country is of high relevance. The majority of Bunjevci do not speak Croatian as far as we know. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 15:57, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to have an opinion that "Croatian" is somehow discernible from "Serbo-Croatian". Let's check out some neutral sources, e.g.
  • Geert-Hinrich Ahrens (6 March 2007). Diplomacy on the Edge: Containment of Ethnic Conflict and the Minorities Working Group of the Conferences on Yugoslavia. Woodrow Wilson Center Press. pp. 247–. ISBN 978-0-8018-8557-0.
The 1991 census and its predecessor contained three categories of Roman Catholic, Serbo-Croatian speaking Slavs: Croats, Bunjevci and Šokci. The differences between them were difficult to understand, because besides the identity of their religion, their Serbo-Croatian also showed characteristics of the Croatian variant. Croats, therefore, claimed "Croatian-ness" (Hrvatstvo) of the Bunjevci and Šokci, whereas Serbs, but also some Bunjevci, pretended that they were from old Balkan stock[...] The problem was not theoretical but political, because the split lowered the percentage of the Vojvodina Croats, who accused Belgrade of a divide et impera policy
So, the things are not so simple as you'd like to present, and, since, the fact accepted by the whole world (except 1 country) is that Croatian and Serbian make up one genetic language, that we refer to "Serbo-Croatian" we should go with the broadest, neutral, definition. No such user (talk) 17:05, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You cant say dont try to spin this and do the same. Almost all of bunjevic live in serbia because in other countries like romania,hungary,switzerland etc. They are reffered to as croats. Again this is not the case only in *one* country. SerVasi (talk) 18:27, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure that I understand. :) If it is some sort of hate speech, it's not okay. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 00:51, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I will assume that was a joke sadko. Anyways, @No such user: why arent you keeping the same energy on these articles then: Bosniaks,Croats,Serbs,Montenegrins.I dont see serbo-croatian listed there SerVasi (talk) 18:08, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@No such user: SerVasi (talk) 22:41, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@No such user: ye folding your argument or? SerVasi (talk) 02:32, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

SerVasi: Nope. I would gladly keep the same energy on those articles as well, but I have limited time and resources. Anyway, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Technically, Croats do speak "Croatian" and Serbs "Serbian" etc, as those are the names they use for the language they speak so it's not strictly "wrong", although it should be mentioned that those are mere variations of "Serbo-Croatian". However, I'm not aware that a majority of Bunjevci call their language "Croatian" so as to unambiguously use such formulation in this article. No such user (talk) 08:37, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@No such user:An overwhelming majority of bunjevci identify as croats yet they dont consider their language croatian. Thats certaintly an interesting take on the situation. SerVasi (talk) 20:54, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

SerVasi "Overwhelming"?! "2011 Census of Population, Households and Dwellings in The Republic of Serbia: Ethnicity - Data by municipalities and cities" (PDF). Statistical Office of Republic Of Serbia, Belgrade. 2012. ISBN 978-86-6161-023-3.
  • Subotica (grad): Bunjevci 13,553; Hrvati 14,151
  • Sombor: Bunjevci 2,058; Hrvati 7,070
There are more Croats elsewhere in Vojvodina, but they are not of Bunjevci stock. No such user (talk) 10:34, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@No such user: SerVasi (talk) 02:47, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@No such user: Yes, overwhelming. For some reason you are operating on a false pretense that bunjevci only live in vojvodina. They are present in croatia,hungary,romania,bosnia and even a decent number in switzerland. In all of those countries they almost exclusively identify as croats. This is not the case only in serbia because of political reasons. SerVasi (talk) 19:00, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I see no sources for the claim and it is not general knowledge and not all of them in Serbia self-identify as Croats, with or without alleged political influence. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 20:02, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This article is chiefly about Bunjevci in Bačka. By now, those other Bunjevci have lost virtually all of their identity, lore and dialect so much it's debatable whether the label still applies to them.
But frankly, I'm rather tired of this chat by now. Is the statement that Bunjevci speak a dialect of Serbo-Croatian somehow wrong? Is it not neutral? What's the particular reason you insist on "Croatian" formulation? No such user (talk) 13:55, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@No such user: The title is only bunjevci and thats what the artice should be about. If you find it necessary feel free to make a seperate article called bunjevci in backa. Saying they speak a dialect of croatian isnt wrong either and its not as vague as saying serbo-croatian. Its more concise and informative. Thats what wikipedia is all about. Cheers. SerVasi (talk) 02:09, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

@Soundwaweserb: @Ничим неизазван: @SerVasi: I suggest you all use the talk page instead of edit warring, please. If anyone can explain how describing the Bunjevci as Croats and adding the flag of the Croatian National Council isn't WP:UNDUE and WP:POV, I suggest they do it here. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 15:41, 23 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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