Talk:Ukraine

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"heavy Communist and Socialist influence" over the Ukrainian national movement for self-determination, which allegedly arose first after October 1917?

This sounds suspiciously close to the red-baiting distortions in Putin's speech yesterday. The article itself lists the Ukrainian People's Republic, the Hetmanate, the Directorate and the Bolshevik Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, the West Ukrainian People's Republic, the Hutsul Republic and, farther below, Makhno's Free Territory. Of these, only the Bolshevik entity was 'Communist', and the Hetmanate wasn't socialist at all. The Directorate was majority-liberal under Ostapenko when it was hoping to get support from the Entente. Yes, the other regimes mentioned were officially more or less socialist-leaning, as was typical of most radicals and revolutionaries at the time, and that is well worth mentioning, but placing 'communist' first makes no sense. Describing the socialist aspect as 'heavy' sounds negative as well as subjective and dubious; apart from Makhno, the others were relatively moderate - radical socialism certainly isn't what Petlyura was primarily known for. Furthermore, the article itself makes it clear that the Ukrainian nationalist movement started at least as early as the 1840s with Shevchenko, not after the 1917 revolution as suggested later; the demand or autonomy after the February revolution may well be regarded as part of the movement for self-determination, and the formal bid for independence was launched in opposition to the October revolution, not as an expression of its 'Communist influence' as the wording implies.--178.249.169.67 (talk) 00:00, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks but it's not clear exactly what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Can anyone comment on whether http://riowang.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-hutsul-republic.html is a reliable source? Chidgk1 (talk) 18:47, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Hello! Per this list of perennial sources, we generally do not consider Blogger or blogspot.com as a reliable source because content there is self-published. So far I see no indication that the author(s) creating those blog posts are experts in modern Ukrainian history, which would theoretically exempt this source in particular, so I'd err on the side of caution and not include them in the article. Thanks! ‍ ‍ elias. 🧣 ‍ ‍ ^{💬reach out to me}
_{📝see my work} 08:50, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Forgot to @; pinging @Chidgk1 as courtesy. ‍ ‍ elias. 🧣 ‍ ‍ ^{💬reach out to me}
_{📝see my work} 08:50, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Deleted "heavy Communist and" - can you suggest a better source for the remaining text in the paragraph? Chidgk1 (talk) 09:14, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Clarifying the description of Ukraine's poverty, GDP, and corruption ranks

See introduction, paragraph 4, sentence 2: "It is the poorest country in Europe, suffering from a very high poverty rate as well as severe corruption." Part of this is not true. I recommend that that should be replaced with the following text and references:

"While it is the second poorest country in Europe, it has a low poverty rate." Reference 1: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SI.POV.UMIC?locations=UA

"It is ranked as the 58th (out of 180) in perceptions of corruption." Reference 1: https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021 Aanders08 (talk) 20:26, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Hi. Hyperlink under "the poorest" should be changed from "List of sovereign states in Europe by GDP (nominal) per capita" into "List of sovereign states in Europe by GDP (PPP) per capita" and we can add a statement "the poorest acc. to GDP (PPP) per capita" or something similar. NeonFor (talk) 03:07, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Aanders08 NeonFor I am a bit confused as someone has made some changes to the lead (introduction) already, so I am closing this request. Could you possible have a look at the "Economy" section and if that is wrong start a new talk section here to fix that first. Once we have that right it will be easier to see if the lead needs more change. Chidgk1 (talk) 18:42, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

NATO

According to the news regarding the invasion of Russia 2022 Ukraine is NOT a member of NATO. 2601:542:C002:E6A0:B44E:1AC2:56BE:596A (talk) 14:11, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Where in this article does it say they are? It might be good to have more people from non-NATO countries answering on this talk page and editing the artice. Maybe you could ask at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_India etc Chidgk1 (talk) 06:42, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

"funded and trained in tactics of political organisation and nonviolent resistance by Western pollsters"

This unsourced phrase makes no sense. Pollsters do not fund or train activists. If external groups funded or trained people in Ukraine about nonviolent resistance or political organization,and if it is relevant, they should be named. Otherwise the sentence should be deleted. DarleneCypserEsq (talk) 20:10, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

DarleneCypserEsq I cannot read the pdf cited - have asked for quote - if no one can find in next day or so suggest deleting. So what do you suggest the sentence should say exactly? Or are you suggesting deleting the whole sentence? If so what should the following sentence say? Chidgk1 (talk) 18:25, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

I boldly deleted 2 paragraphs which I think are excess detail - if anybody thinks they are correct they might like to add them to Modern history of Ukraine instead Chidgk1 (talk) 06:14, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Euromaidan and the Revolution of Dignity

Very one sided opinion. Would like to add that the ousting of Yanukovych was done illegally and was rightly labelled as a coup

[[1]]

HelenHIL (talk) 23:30, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

HelenHIL We cannot write "was rightly labelled as a coup" as the source does not show that was a consensus opinion. If you want to propose text saying that was the opinion of certain academics please propose exactly what you would like to add (and delete if any). Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. You can reopen by changing "answered=yes" to "answered=no" above Chidgk1 (talk) 06:27, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes you are right it's not a consensus opinion. I think the best is to change "However, Members of Parliament voted on 22 February to remove the president and set an election for 25 May to select his replacement" with "The Parliament voted 328-0 to remove Yanukovich from his post and to schedule a presidential election for 25 May. This vote violated the impeachment process specified by the Ukrainian Constitution, which would have involved formally charging Yanukovych with a crime, a review of the charge by the Constitutional Court of Ukraine, and a three-fourths majority vote—at least 338 votes in favor—in Parliament. Instead, Parliament declared that Yanukovych "withdrew from his duties in an unconstitutional manner" and cited "circumstances of extreme urgency" as the reason for early elections." To be the same as here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity#Removal_of_Yanukovych It's shows both sides. HelenHIL (talk) 17:31, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

HelenHIL Sorry this article already has too much detail (I should not have misled you by writing "if any" above) and your suggestion would add more. See Wikipedia:Summary style. I think your only chance is to start a new talk page request with a suggestion which would shorten the "Euromaidan and the Revolution of Dignity" section as a whole. I'll stop commenting here on this and also leave it to another editor if you make a new request - so you will know it is not just me who thinks like this. Chidgk1 (talk) 18:15, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

I want help join ukrine military. I want to join

Pls how suggist me 2402:3A80:E1B:3E43:0:18:CD28:DD01 (talk) 06:00, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a "how to" guide. But you can read International Legion of Territorial Defense of Ukraine Chidgk1 (talk) 06:32, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Read heading outside important for ukraine Jimgeer (talk) 19:02, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Try to search for ways to accomplish your goal on the internet, Wikipedia isn't the best place for what you're asking. IMiss2010 (talk) 19:30, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

What do you think about excerpting non-contentious sections?

I guess editing of this article is likely to remain heavily restricted for a long time?

Like I did with the energy subsection I am thinking of replacing with excerpts some more of the sections or subsections which are not likely to be contentious. For example Wildlife of Ukraine to the biodiversity section. This would allow far more people to be able to bring/keep the information up to date. Chidgk1 (talk) 09:53, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 March 2022

Change Government section in infobox from Unitary semi-presidential republic to Unitary semi-presidential republic under martial law

Blurengo (talk) 17:46, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

done Chidgk1 (talk) 17:54, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Among the poorest countries in Europe

Ukraine remains the second-poorest country in Europe, after Moldova. So there should be a mention about that on the lead's third para. Either that or "Ukraine is among the poorest countries in Europe". I don't know why it got removed entirely, when it could've just gotten fixed. It is an important info. Thesickreservoir (talk) 18:33, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

changed "a high rate of poverty" to "among the poorest countries in Europe". Hope that answers your point. If not if you have time you might like to first fix Economy of Ukraine and then request its lead to be excerpted here Chidgk1 (talk) 05:53, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Adequate historically and geographically correct moderation

I suggest that changes to this wikipedia article be not influenced by emotion nor motivation to change the course of history. Therefore I suggest that a trusted and hopefully large committee of historians and geographic experts (e.g. at least academic, professors) are set-up to moderate the changes to this lemma. Don't know who they are, and probably they themselves don't know that they are eligible, but it should be possible to compile a list of the experts on this topic on their merit, preferably before 2014-2022.

So please, fellow wikipedians, can you add to this talk section and identify/propose moderators with sufficient and objective authority, that can weed out subjective and even fake modifications and keep the balance? This proposal is not to disable the power of wikipedia laymen to add facts, but to prevent unbalanced adding and inaccurate adding of text.

Please let me know! Always interested in the facts! Greatest resource for ever! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Auvideo (talk • contribs) 18:47, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

It's up to you to suggest changes. Go ahead suggest: "please change X to Y". Chidgk1 (talk) 20:15, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

How much of Kazakhstan is in Europe

This line is wrong, " It is the second-largest country by area in Europe after Russia", because Kazakhstan has more land in Europe than Ukraine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1702:3AE0:4760:D196:2BFE:29FB:7397 (talk) 14:48, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Do you have a reliable source for that statement? Chidgk1 (talk) 14:53, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

No, only ~148,000 of Kazakhstan's ~2.7 million square kilometers is in Europe as commonly defined. Kazakhstan as a whole is bigger than Ukraine, but that isn't what this is about.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:35, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

How does Kazakhstan have more land in Europe than Ukraine, which spans over 600,000 square kilometeres? That's completely untrue. Its even hard to find reliable sources mentioning that Kazakhstan even lies in Europe. Even most geographers consider it to be only in Asia. The line is ambiguous, and Kazakhstan's European part does not have a specified land area, only estimates. One thing's for sure, the area is definitely below 200,000 square kilometres. Ukraine, by far, has the second-largest land area in Europe. Thesickreservoir (talk) 16:09, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

FAQ; France vs. Denmark

I'm sure people will more likely ask about Denmark than France. Can anyone change the (currently only) question in the FAQ so that it talks about Denmark?? Georgia guy (talk) 15:20, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

You should be able to change it yourself by clicking "edit" near the big question mark. Any problems let us know. Chidgk1 (talk) 15:37, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Euromaidan and the Revolution of Dignity

The article is one sided as they are other opinions. The Russian side and even prominent US academic John J. Mearsheimer have argued that it was a coup. Please change "However, Members of Parliament voted on 22 February to remove the president and set an election for 25 May to select his replacement" with "However, Members of Parliament voted on 22 February to remove the president and set an election for 25 May to select his replacement, a move that was described by Russians and even US academic John J. Mearsheimer as a coup"

https://www.jstor.org/stable/24483306
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26304842
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/6/22/russias-putin-accuses-us-of-orchestrating-2014-coup-in-ukraine

HelenHIL (talk) 16:39, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

In progress: An editor is implementing the requested edit. --N8 22:15, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

 Done @HelenHIL: Thank you for providing specific changes to make! (So many people miss this.) In the future, providing full inline citations might also help requests get addressed faster since this makes it much easier for editors to move changes into the article. {{reftalk}} may help. Nonetheless, good WP:RSs -thank you. --N8 23:02, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Map of Ukraine

Please add this neutral Map of Ukraine to the article. I can't edit. Greetings Lencer (talk) 07:46, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

done thanks Chidgk1 (talk) 13:50, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Map has changed against climate map in the article? What kind of nonsens is this? There is no map with city names, but many readers are looking for this information. I can't understand. --Lencer (talk) 05:29, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Lencer If I remember right I added the map exactly as you requested above. If not please ping me to let me know as I am not watching this article. If anyone else made other changes you will have to take it up with them not me. Chidgk1 (talk) 09:28, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't want to criticize you at all and I will write to the responsible editor. Greetings Lencer (talk) 10:04, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Lencer No probs - I was not offended - just did not want to get involved in the discussion. Other ways you could proceed would be to mention editors by name from this talk page - like I just did with your name - or start a Wikipedia:Requests for comment in a new section on this talk page. Or do a lot of minor edits to build up your number - for example on Chinese Wikipedia despite knowing no Chinese I corrected a lot of external links on articles about places I knew. Or you could comment of the "excerpts" discussion below. Chidgk1 (talk) 05:29, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Please make this protected or semi-protected

I have a request to make this a semi - protected (or maybe protected) as this is quite a touchy subject. as seen in this article, War crimes during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine people can easily be offended by this, or vandalise the page.Jacob7895 (talk) 13:48, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

hello Jacob7895 - you need to ask at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection Chidgk1 (talk) 13:54, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 March 2022

The previous map depicting in the template was more accurate to the current one,

I don't understand the necessarity for this change. LVTW2 (talk) 05:14, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: This would be something to discuss and garner consensus about. Cheers! —Sirdog (talk) 01:17, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

The new map says that Ukraine does not control whole Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts, which is simply not true.

The old map has to be restored. You cannot simply change a map to a new one without providing any evidence on it. This country is in an ongoing war, so the real-world map changes every day. It has to be untouched until war settles down a bit so we will be able to provide an updated, more correct map. ObjectiveAnderson (talk) 23:21, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

 Done, the country infobox is not for the day-to-day movement of a war. Only stable borders. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 07:01, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Help from projects

...Message sent to Wikiprojects.... Lets try and cleanup the article. As of now its full of unsourced info and full of excerpts that dont allow us to monitor changes to the article and has many subpart references we normally dont use in country articles. Best get as many eyes on this considering whats going on.--Moxy- 17:16, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Sources

Needs lots in culture section. Can anyone list a few here?Moxy- 17:22, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Excerpts

Luckly we only have a few of these now used in sections that should be somewhat stable, but they should be replaced with better summary text here that we can monitor for changes here. Moxy- 17:22, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

I think uncontroversial sections should be excerpts as then everyone can edit them Chidgk1 (talk) 07:13, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Will work on this ..this week ...fix it up normaly. Changes made to transcluded content often do not appear in watchlists, resulting in unseen changes on the target page. {{excerpt}} and related templates may require using <noinclude>, <includeonly> and <onlyinclude> markup at the transcluded page to have selective content; that would require monitoring that the markup is sustained. Excerpts cause editors to monitor transcluded pages for section title changes to ensure transclusion continues to work. Transcluded text may cause repeated links and no-text cite errors and have different established reference styles, varieties of English or date formats than the target page. Transclusions do not reflect protection levels, resulting in transcluded text perhaps having a different level of protection than the target page. Excerpts can result in content discussions over multiple talk pages that may have different considerations or objectives for readers.Moxy- 13:19, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

You don't think the advantage of anyone being able to edit outweighs the disadvantages? For example it seems unlikely anyone would edit war on Ukraine#Biodiversity. I had never heard of using the markup you mention, and as far as I can tell we don't need to use it here. Chidgk1 (talk) 09:18, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Definity not ..its why we have protection levels and it nakes it harder to edit not eaiser---Moxy- 23:42, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Sorry I don't understand - if your last comment is answering my previous comment please could you explain - or what are you trying to say exactly? I am open to being persuaded. Also if anyone else would like to comment it would be good to get a third opinion. As for the argument in favor of excerpts in a nutshell: 1) Some sections are not controversial 2) Everyone should be able to edit sections which are not controversial 3) Excerpts seem to be the easiest way to achieve that Chidgk1 (talk) 05:25, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Not interested in editing or watching multiple articles just to ensure all is OK here.....nor is anyone interested in have to sic protection levels across multiple articles. Also aricles should be able to grow on their own accord.....one should not be stifled by the other.Moxy- 05:44, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Link lost

Many visitors of this page come here in order to read about the current events. And these were only one click away, since the lead had

For the 2022 military conflict, see 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Unfortunately someone removed this link. I cannot edit this page but hope someone undoes this removal.

 Done Agree should make the current article as easy to find as poisible till over. --Moxy- 15:31, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Ukraine, specifically history, economy, culture, corruption.

Content all badly out-of-date. A lot has happened in the last 5-10 years. I am not equipped to suggest edits but am capable of noticing they are needed. 2600:1702:701:DF0:1907:422A:64C4:EC3D (talk) 18:28, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

I suspect you are better equipped to suggest edits than I am. Go ahead and suggest - just don't be offended if other editors reject your suggestions. Chidgk1 (talk) 09:21, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Or if you prefer you or anyone could edit Economy of Ukraine and Ukrainian culture directly Chidgk1 (talk) 09:24, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

@2600:1702:701:DF0:1907:422A:64C4:EC3D 49.36.107.92 (talk) 18:13, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Regional languages

The list of regional languages should be removed from the infobox, as the law it's referencing to (uk:Закон України «Про засади державної мовної політики») was recognized as unconstitutional and is no longer valid since January 2018.

The new law, uk:Закон України «Про забезпечення функціонування української мови як державної», official English translation - https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/2704-19?lang=en#Text) became effective in 2019 and it lists Ukrainian as the only state language in Ukraine, which also corresponds to the Constitution of Ukraine. --EricLewan (talk) 12:28, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

impossible date

This can't be correct:

"Following an Avar raid in 602 and the collapse of the Antes Union, most of these peoples survived as separate tribes until the beginning of the second millennium BC.[37]"

Even if 602 means 602 BC, this would mean surviving as separate tribes while traveling more than a millennium backwards in time.

From the context earlier in the paragraph, this may be intended to mean:

"Following an Avar raid in 602 and the collapse of the Antes Union, most of these peoples survived as separate tribes until the beginning of the second millennium AD."

Awkward in English, but possible to be correct.

Or:

"... until the beginning of the second century BC."

I trust an expert in pre-Rus Ukraine will correct this.

Cordially, Joaquin