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List of highest-grossing sports films

I don't know where to begin here, or where this should go for wikiprojects, but this list which seems to have been maintained by two authors, is quite possibly the loosest interpretation of "sports film" to begin with. I would go in and clean it but I know, from reading the history, that I would be accused of vandalism or OR. The various edits show an ongoing war over whether to include pokemon, as it is a blood sport with cockfighting, whether or not Titanic counts due to featuring a poker game, the top of the list is The Hunger Games linking to battle royale which is a historical concept and pro wrestling thing but has no connection to the film outside of the "battle royale" greater genre of murder/horror films and games.

Sports films seems to be the template for the article, but if the average person came to read this (and I am one) they would be left befuddled by the disconnect between what they understand a sports film to be and a film that includes sport. Forrest Gump, Gladiator (2000 film), Alita: Battle Angel and Casino Royale (2006 film). I don't know where to begin but this has been tagged for over two years and it's only gotten worse. –– Lid(Talk) 13:29, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I concur that the criteria is way too loose. It is pretty much original research how this list is compiled, and it does not seem any of the references even talk about this topic collectively. I hate to say it, but maybe deletion should be considered. It seems like the highest-grossing films should be recognized by sport, and that could be done at lists of specific sports films (though these lists don't look in particularly great shape). Like on a list of baseball films, the highest-grossing ones could be mentioned in prose or in a top-ten list in addition to the main list. Something like that. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 13:51, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
How do we go about this? –– Lid(Talk) 09:35, 29 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I would follow the process at WP:AFD. Even if it is not deleted, there can be a consensus determined on what to do next. I take it back about having the box office hits at the specific lists. I think something like what I mentioned below would be more narrow and better. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 11:36, 29 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please do propose it for deletion. I was worried before that the list was poorly defined[1] but I do not believe it can actually be saved and turned into a coherent encyclopedia article. Even if it can be saved it would require a firm definition and near total rewrite anyway. -- 109.76.199.51 (talk) 05:55, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The list seems to violate WP:LSC, where there is no reliable sourcing for how a film appears on the list. Furthermore, is the list topic even a notable list topic? Are there, out there outside of Wikipedia, other lists of highest grossing sports films? If not, the topic is not notable. If so, our list should substantially match those lists, or else it is orignal research. If this is not a valid topic for a list, AFD may be the way to go. --Jayron32 13:52, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
They do exist: CNBC, Sports Illustrated. But it seems like we could just have a top-ten list at sports film itself and not use these as a license to have this kind of vague and sprawling list. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 13:59, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

War drama

Notification that Category:War drama films and its sub-categories are up for deletion at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2022_April_28#Category:War_drama_films. Betty Logan (talk) 12:38, 30 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Citizen Kane

Input from experienced editors is needed at Talk:Citizen Kane#Reception in lead where there is a dispute over how the film's critical standing should be characterized. 92.0.35.8 (talk) 20:11, 3 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Last Jedi

I am updating the Star Wars: The Last Jedi article to talk about the film's recent re-evaluation. I know what sources I will use - but I was wondering if my sources can all be primary sources - or whether I have to use a mix of primary and secondary. If I do have to mix, I would like to know why as I don't understand that. 92.0.35.8 (talk) 20:22, 3 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've left comments on the talk page for The Last Jedi if anyone wants to reply to me there :) 92.0.35.8 (talk) 21:22, 3 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Unattributed translations copied into Plot summary of many film articles

Please be aware of new users such as KatBet (talk · contribs)[noping] pasting unattributed machine-translated content word for word from German, Italian, or other Wikipedias into the Plot section of film articles in violation of the attribution requirements at WP:Copying within Wikipedia (in particular, WP:TFOLWP). For further details, see User talk:KatBet#Please stop adding translated plot summaries without attribution. In addition, there is some concern that KatBet may be a sockpuppet of indeffed User:Oldhedge (see this discussion) and so may return as a new user under some other name. The pattern appears to be: adding paragraphs sequentially to the Plot section of a film article, one paragraph at a time, with paragraphs appearing from one to four minutes apart (as if passing them through DeepL or Google translate one paragraph at a time, and pasting the result into the Plot section).

Please remain vigilant about film articles, in particular German or Italian films from the 1950s and 1960s, and please examine any updates that hit your watchlist, especially when they are to Plot sections and look like they might have stiff, or "translated-sounding" content. If you do notice anything suspicious, please add a comment to the CCI noticeboard, where there is already an investigation request pending. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 22:04, 4 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Removing actors' names from plot summaries

There is a strong consensus to follow WP:FILMPLOT and remove actors name when summarizing.

WP:FILMPLOT states: Do not include actors' names in the plot summary, as it is considered redundant to the "Cast" section. The vast majority of editors in the discussion concur with the established guideline that actors named should not be mentioned when summarizing the plot. Mentioning their names is seen as redundant and unnecessary. The only argument, promoted by one user, to not follow the guideline is the fact that FILMPLOT is just a guideline. This argument has been overwhelmingly rejected by the community.

(non-admin closure) Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 03:05, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should the rule from WP:FILMPLOT "Do not include actors' names in the plot summary, as it is considered redundant to the `cast` section" be followed rigorously, or not at all? -- Pete Best Beatles (talk) 16:01, 5 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • The guideline should definitely be followed. There's no point in listing an actor's name in the summary and making a "Cast" section. The only exception is if you excluded a #Cast section entirely (see Panic Room and Moonrise Kingdom) but I recommend following the rule. Some Dude From North Carolina (talk) 16:38, 5 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've seen arguments either way, but I think that it is simpler to not include it. If we talk about including it, we have to answer the following questions: Should we do it for all film articles, or only where the actors are known? Should we name the actor for every character mentioned in the plot summary? Should we rewrite the plot summary to try to mention more characters thus more roles? Should we have blue links for all the actors? Should we rewrite the plot summary to avoid introducing multiple characters in one sentence (because that means naming all the actors too)? I feel like there are all these nuances that editors can argue over and have fair points in different ways, and it's not worth the debating. I'd prefer tying starring actors with their roles or the film's premise in the lead section. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 17:00, 5 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I say follow it. In addition to challenges including the names poses outlined by Erik, there's additional issues of "do these names count toward FILMPLOT word count" and constructions like "John Smith's (Some Guy) house" are awkward to read. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 17:27, 5 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sidebar, just curious, is there a particular reason this RfC was opened. I recall this was discussed one month ago with the opener, where it was unanimously stated by project members that the guideline is very clear. I'm just curious if some disagreement occurred in the past month that necessitates an RfC to clarify what is already very explicitly stated in the MOS. An RfC is for disputes. If this is just a general question, then this RfC was opened improperly. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 18:20, 5 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I think the editor is new and may be unfamiliar with the fact that RFCs are kind of a last resort. Pete Best Beatles, based on WP:RFCBEFORE, simply asking the question on this WikiProject talk page is sufficient. I would say to think of launching an RFC as casting a very wide net for opinions, like for instance discussing changes to policies and the overarching guidelines (not just subject-specific). Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 21:30, 5 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Here's what happened. After that earlier discussion, I began happily deleting actor' names from plot summaries whenever I found them, referencing WP|FILMPLOT in the edit summaries as suggested, and feeling pretty productive and helpful about it. Yesterday Beyond My Ken sent me a message stating "Please note that FILMPLOT is a guideline and not a mandatory policy. Many of us feel that the actors' names in the plot section is a service to our readers...I will be reverting your edits using rollback." I didn't know what to do (yes, I'm a new editor), so I contacted one of the helpful contributors to that earlier discussion directly. They replied to Beyond My Ken on my talk page: "If you disagree with WP:FILMPLOT or think it does not reflect the current de facto consensus, I'd suggest opening a discussion or RfC...to clarify consensus (Pete Best Beatles, you're welcome to open the RfC there yourself if you get to it first...)." So that's what I did. -- Pete Best Beatles (talk) 06:10, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment: Pinging @Beyond My Ken for response/comment. Some Dude From North Carolina (talk) 14:00, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    In my experience, BMK has been the minority opinion for various film-related guidelines over the years, always emphasizing the "only a guideline" rationale to revert changes to articles they edit. Of course I'm only noticing when they contest the guidelines, there may be some that they follow willingly or incidentally. While their rationale can be a fair point in general, I think the community tries to balance flexibility in what to do and what not to do, and the reason for this particular guideline has been outlined in this discussion.
    On the other hand, Pete Best Beatles, I'm personally not crazy about serial editing of one kind. The more articles one makes the same change to, the more likely a dispute will arise with another editor, and the more petty the power dynamic (e.g., going around making the same change and getting challenged and trying to restore that change invoking consensus-based best practices, forcing a guideline to be universally applied as policy). My personal advice is to worry less about making widespread changes especially when neither version is outright detrimental. I think there are good reasons to avoid actors' names in plot summaries, but I don't think they're compelling enough to "enforce" that avoidance systemically. Who knows, maybe years down the road, the consensus will change, or Wikipedia will have some dynamic way for readers to toggle between seeing and not seeing actors' names in the plot, and this discussion would be rendered moot. I think it is more meaningful to add content to articles since in my experience, content is "sticky" -- it will stick around for a long time, perhaps "forever". That's my $0.02. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 16:11, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Follow it. (Summoned by bot) I wasn't aware of the rule, but in general find such 'inline' naming intrusive or reduntant at best. So yes, follow the rule. Pincrete (talk) 18:07, 5 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, we should be following the rule as the information is redundant. At the very least, we should not be reverting changes to conform with the guideline without any attempt to change the guideline. No guideline, policy or rule on Wikipedia is ever "mandatory" (because of WP:IAR), but you need a reason of some kind to break the rule. — Bilorv (talk) 13:57, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Invited b the bot) I think that the discussions above are missing the reality which is the middle ground. It's practice that is usually a good one to follow, and to be taken into consideration when considering decision otherwise. It's in a guideline, not a policy, and from a set of guidelines which have huge amount of content that has had only a local consensus. So it's certainly not a mandate. And also is not enough to go on to rapidly make large amount of un-discussed changes at a large amount of articles, including without checking if there has already been a discussed decision otherwise at the article.North8000 (talk) 14:24, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree with removing names, outside of cases where the cast (or other equivalent section) is not used, as would be the case of arthouse films which may have a cast you can count on one hand. The style of naming cast members after character names is an extension that falls from movie reviews in newspapers and magazines where there isn't a cast list, so it makes sense that its listed there, but here where we 99.99% of the time have such a section devoted to cast lists, its wasting space and noise. But we should be flexible in cases where the cast list is not used, and in other rare instances if editors agree by consensus that there's a good reason to include the names in the plot. --Masem (t) 14:35, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • No - Just a reminder to all and sundry, that ArbCom has stated very clearly that WikiProjects do not control the content of the articles they include within their purview. FILMPLOT is, and remains only a guideline, and it cannot be made mandatory by this or any other RfC held in this venue -- which, of course, makes the RfC totally pointless. Whatever the result, this is essentially a local consensus, and is not valid for Wikipedia as a whole. Those who wish to make FILMPLOT mandatory are advised to nominate it to be a policy and have the community as a whole decide the issue. In the meantime, it remains a non-mandatory guideline. (And Erik, you know damn well that I follow the vast majority of guidelines. I am very disappointed in your well-poisoning comment.) Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:48, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I was citing what I have observed here. I do not recall a past guideline-related discussion where there was a positive agreement at the end, whether a compelling enough argument being made to follow a best practice as outlined in guidelines, or to concede to a kind of consensus. It's possible these happen before and out of sight, whereas irreconcilable differences escalate to this talk page and end bitterly. I know for myself that sometimes I do not agree with the guidelines and other kinds of consensus that revoke some new approach I try out. Feel free to make your case further here as needed. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 23:16, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Definitely. It is utterly ridiculous that plot sections - many of which already struggle with their length - are littered with bracketed references to the actors, when the very same information is almost always set out in detail in the section immediately following, as well as the leads usually having been named already in the lead section. These bracketed bits of redundant information interrupt the reading flow for people who want to know what the storyline is, whilst helping only those who have somehow prized off and lost the page down button from their keyboard. MapReader (talk) 19:42, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Definitely, follow it. It amazes me, given the few policies, and the many guidelines, and the fact that guidelines were created as the practical activities required to see policies followed, that guidelines are here being given short shrift (Ken). See the tables of policies and guidelines that follow every policy article (e.g., WP:VERIFY)—it is clear, by achieving a consensus around given guidelines, we achieve the policy aims of the community. That said, here is my full perspective, which will likely aggravate everyone.
Ken's emphases notwithstanding, guidelines exist to guarantee readers uniformity of reading experience with regard to quality and appearance, and having a guideline that is followed, except at the articles that make a particular editor angry, is an invitation to diminished overall quality at the encyclopedia. And while Ken's wikilawyering is correct, it is not the way of this place to elevate the strident perspective of even a devoted editor. Ken's tendency is to focus on the fact that the MOS allows for common sense exceptions; but that is a distortion, here: the MOS describes itself as "a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow", and doing the exact opposite is neither a common sense exception, nor is it a good faith attempt to follow the "generally accepted standard". Moreover, overarching decisions are made by consensus, and the clear consensus in the Project (which is more important than any individual perspective, see following for mine) is to proceed with plot descriptions absent actor-character pairings. So, Guideline in place, consensus in place, the course should be clear—make the articles uniform in this direction. That is to say, this group of editors should support the editor making the edits-to-guideline, and revert Ken. (There is no excuse to hang out a guideline-following editor to dry. This group has the needed local majority to move articles in the direction that the guideline asks.)
Now, to make everyone else angry: I strongly disagree with the sentiment stated we should not do cross-article, guideline-directed edits (over many articles). Is that not what many automations at WP are doing? Is that not what tag-informed teams are already doing for unsourced and undersourced articles (etc.)? Are we to tell individuals not to make blanket improvements and corrections, just because the process is not yet bot-driven? Yes, it increases the chance of conflict with other editors. But that is what guidelines and the consensus efforts of WikiProjects are for—to ensure the will of the community prevails over any single perspective (or of any local article bully). So, change the guideline, or enforce it, but don't tell earnest, properly compliant editors not to make edits that they are willing to, to improve the quality and consistency of the encyclopedia.
Finally, I have to close by saying... I personally disagree with the guideline. I personally agree with Ken. [If the plot summaries included in the movie reviews of every major esteemed review venue (to the extent to which they include such summaries) does not find character-actor presentations in the text to be intrusive or awkward, neither do I.] In my first experiences here, it was the absence of these, not their presence that was jarring. As for redundancies—they are so far and wide here, the minor redundancy of stating the character-actor pairing twice is a non-concern. Likewise, comparing the awkwardness of someone naive about a film having to jump back and forth between two sections to know which actor is playing which part, versus the awkwardness of haing sentences interspersed, parenthetically, with actor name... there is a strong case to be made that the original guideline got it wrong (and that Ken is fundamentally correct).
This last paragraph is not really stated to incite anger or disagreement. Rather, it is stated to make clear that my "let's get tough with Ken" content is actually a statement against interest. I actually agree, fundamentally, with Ken's view. But if the place has rules (and guidelines are near to as strong a set of rules as we have), then we (a) need to follow them, and (b) as well, we need to bring the consensus of the Project to articles in support of editors that follow them. (I will have no reply to anything here. This is just to spur closing comments, but more so, action.) 2601:246:C700:558:E05F:BFAD:304D:DDBC (talk) 00:37, 9 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Clarification: the discussion in this section was unarchived from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Archive 79 at 02:56, 5 May 2022 and added back here at 02:56, 5 May 2022. Mathglot (talk) 03:39, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Update

Pursuant to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Archive 79#Should "films by country" categories remain all-inclusive?, I noted as of today that there still hadn't been any move by anybody else toward getting a bot going on the task. So just an update that I've now posted a request at Wikipedia:Bot requests#Film categories, so hopefully this will get started soon. Bearcat (talk) 16:00, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Advice on Gordy and Ringing Bell

Lately, some edits to Gordy have introduced unsourced home media edits that may or may not be true. I have started a discussion at the talk page. Then for Ringing Bell, this article on the other hand seems to need a large amount of improvement. On it, some statements have recently been removed that were sourced to dead links or to the wrong source, but one of those statements was left in while the reference was removed. Some citations meanwhile are crudely filled, and they should be filled in properly. Finally, both articles are missing production sections, and they are only start-class articles at most (for the most part at least). Further help would be appreciated. 2600:1700:53F1:5560:D438:2B7E:AEF7:4F8 (talk) 19:22, 9 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As I stated on the talk page of Gordy, the unsourced paragraph was removed by the same person who added it, and I reverted the other edit that lacked a source. However, if it turns out to be true, can a source be provided? 2600:1700:53F1:5560:9904:5463:ED0C:BC6A (talk) 21:54, 10 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Youtube

Hello,

I want to edit the page for Forrest Gump to talk more about its perceived conservative politics. I was wondering if I can use this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVfmIOWY6go . It's an incredibly well-researched video but am not sure if it counts as a reliable source. Could someone please tell me if it is nor not? 78.150.129.45 (talk) 19:51, 10 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So, it's not just some random person ranting, but it's equally not an actual staffed media analysis producer. Do you have any sources where other media analyses by this person/people are discussed in reliable news media sources, to give an indication of the video creator's notability and reliability? Also, what would your edits add to what is already at Forrest_Gump#Political_interpretations (in terms of the length/depth of the section being appropriate for the level of analysis and length of article overall)? Kingsif (talk) 20:45, 11 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There are probably reliable news media sources discussing Renegade Cut (the creator) and his work. I will look for them in the morning. Additionally, I will also re-read the Forrest Gump#Political interpretations section then and rewatch their video, to make sure I'm not repeating things already in the article. Goodnight! 78.150.129.45 (talk) 23:43, 11 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move at Talk:Hubli (film)#Requested move 4 May 2022

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Hubli (film)#Requested move 4 May 2022 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. NW1223<Howl at me•My hunts> 15:26, 11 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

FAR for Jack Sparrow

I have nominated Jack Sparrow for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. BloatedBun (talk) 10:43, 13 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Planned sequels

In Special:Diff/1087653835, an IP editor added some rumors and announcements about planned sequels to a film. If we pruned it down to the parts that are well-sourced, it wouldn't really amount to much. But my question is how much of this is even relevant? Do we usually report casting announcements for planned sequels? It seems to me like you'd end up with a section similar to the current one, full of repetitive statements like "This was planned to happen, but it didn't. Then something else was planned to happen, but it didn't." NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:50, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Another editor went ahead and reverted it already.[2] (The anon editor was adding WP:UNSOURCED content, tagging his own newly made edits with {{citation needed}} so I would have reverted it too. Tagging your own edits as citation needed, seems oddly familiar, and I see the user has been blocked from editing again.) I might salvage a very small part of that edit, mentioning that a sequel [P.S. or in this specific example a reboot] is in production seems appropriate, and the casting of the lead seems reasonable. If it was available I might also want to include the prospective release date.
It is good that you ask about this in general and perhaps the guidelines could address the matter of Sequel sub sections. (If the section is was labeled "Possible Sequel" or "Planned sequel" I would argue that it shouldn't be there at all.) I would lean heavily on WP:CRYSTAL and WP:NFF and also WP:RS and reapply the same intentions here. If it hasn't happened yet (started production/filming) then it remains to be seen if it is actually noteworthy, anything else is speculation. In the past editors have allowed "Sequel" sections to get quite long, but trimmed them back to only the most relevant bits when the sequel actually gets an article of its own. So I would also consider WP:UNDUE part of the justification not to put to much emphasis on Sequels sections, and even if it is all verified by reliable sources, trim it back to only the most important points. Many times fans start a Sequel section based on comments from an actor saying they would like to do the sequel, but again I think that is only speculation and of course while promoting a film most actors will say they want to keep getting work. I have tried to remove that sort of thing before[3] and I wouldn't put much weight on comments from directors or producers before a film has even been released, sequels rarely happen unless the first one makes money. Again I think it is reasonable to apply existing standards about speculation and relevance to all this. -- 109.76.199.51 (talk) 07:24, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I am not aware for any sequel to the article which has been the centre of attention. And this website will not be useful either. I certainly agree with Geraldo Perez for reverting that. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 09:11, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Notice of WeGotThisCovered, an over-cited unreliable source

This unreliable source has been cited 600 times and and enough is enough. I've started a discussion about it at RSN because it can't be continued to cite unreal rumors on film pages which need to have factual information. RanDom 404 (talk) 01:34, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

How far do you want to take it? I tried doing a random bit of cleanup and it seems not all their content is rumor or recycled, although most of it is. Do you want to exclude even their reviews and interviews? (e.g. The Diabolical film, or We Belong (Sheppard song).) I would be very reluctant to exclude reviews unless absolutely necessary. -- 109.76.141.34 (talk) 16:18, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You can probably find more reviews from more reputable sources than We Got This Covered. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:14, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, better sources can almost always be found of course. I wouldn't add WGTC as a reference myself but I'd be reluctant to remove them when other editors have added them in good faith. Also finding a better source takes effort, which past experience has shown some editors are entirely unwilling to make that effort. Unfortunately certain editors have no nuance and have interpreted "deprecated" to mean delete immediately rather than {{Better source needed}}. I have been very disappointed before to see film reviews from reputable critics deleted because they happened to be printed in less reputable newspapers. Interviews too. (Film reviews are inherently opinion pieces, reflexively excluding them still makes no sense to me even though I have no love for WP:THESUN or WP:DAILYMAIL or WP:NYPOST.)
It is good that RanDom 404 has highlighted this, and (also other editors have highlighted the problem with speculation about Planned sequels so) hopefully more editors will actively discourage the use of WeGotThisCovered as a reference. -- 109.79.163.154 (talk) 22:48, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sadly movie wikipedia often use unreliable sources. Until now I left alone these things but now when I'll see a site like this cited I'll replace it PedroPistolas (talk) 08:21, 19 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

One-shots and Rope (1948)

In the talk of the page about one-shot movies I am arguing that Rope should be removed from the list of the movies "edited to appear as "one shot"". My point is that the movie actually it's edited to appear has four long takes given that half if the cuts are clear and undisguised. I have given the time of these cuts in the universal bluray (00:19:55; 00:34:24; 00:51:57; 01:09:51) and the film's page itself points out the timing for the version used by the page editor. In my opinion this movie clearly it's edited to look like it has four long takes, not one, but at least two users do not agree so I'm asking here for other opinions. --PedroPistolas (talk) 09:32, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The question I think has been resolved PedroPistolas (talk) 17:07, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently not and I invite you to the talk page of the movie Talk:Rope_(film)#Reliability_of_sources--PedroPistolas (talk) 08:07, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

questions about Plot guidelines

I'm a new editor and recently added text to the Plot section of Flashback (2001). That version of the Plot section was later edited with the comment "Plot: Drastically shortened this section - per WP:FILMPLOT, plot summaries of films should be between 400-700 words, and this was around 1600 words." The pre-edit version is at https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Flashback_(2021_film)&oldid=1088512007 and the post-edit version is at https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Flashback_(2021_film)&oldid=1088594453 (The first paragraph of Plot pre-dates my edit.)

I read WP:FILMPLOT and am unclear on how handle plots. This film has a non-linear storyline involving time-travel. Here is guideline language from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:FILMPLOT that I would like some help with.

"Plot summaries are self-contained sections ("Plot", "Plot summary") in film articles that complement wider coverage about the films' production, reception, themes, ..."

"Plot summaries for feature films should be between 400 and 700 words. The summary should not exceed the range unless the film's structure is unconventional, such as with non-linear storylines ..."

Being a new editor, I'd appreciate advice on whether the non-linear complexity of the plot in this film justifies the longer plot section, and if not, would it be appropriate to present the information about the individual episodes in an additional section, such as "themes". Thanks, Labbrla (talk) 15:39, 19 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The plot summary is only supposed to provide a brief overview of the story. In the overwhelming majority of films it should be possible to do this. However there may be exceptions where the structure of the plot makes it very difficult to summarize in under 700 words. One example of where this exception was invoked is Pulp Fiction. An exception is not an automatic "get out" clause, though. Other editors may think it is possible to adequately summarise the film's plot even if the structure is unconventional. I would say that Flashback is certainly a candidate for waivering the limit, although 1600 words (over twice the limit does seem excessive for even a very unconventional plot. You could try reinstating a shorter version of your synopsis and see if other editors accept it,or you could start a discussion on the article talk page and solicit the views of other editors. Plot summaries (along with critical reception sections) are usually the most hotly contested aspects of film articles so I am not surprised that your edit is getting some pushback. Betty Logan (talk) 16:00, 19 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Reading both the before and after, while time travel is involved, the set that the main character experiences twelve "episodes" in history seems right, and it becomes a matter of just reducing those to fit 700 words. --Masem (t) 16:06, 19 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Consider the following: "In a sequence of events that is composed of almost a dozen death-defying stunts, the skilled motorcyclist slowly begins to win over the hostile crowd." Now consider this more concise version: "Following several dangerous stunts, the motorcyclist wins over the hostile crowd." Basically the same sentence but 11 words versus 26 words. The other problem is people summarize each scene in sequence instead of summarizing the film as a whole. If you write 20 words about each scene, and there are 100 scenes, there's going to be a problem. Instead, spend the 700 words writing about the film as a whole. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 03:29, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you to Betty Logan, Masem, and NinjaRobotPirate - I will work on it. A follow up question: Would it violate any guidelines to include additional plot description in footnotes to paragraphs in the Plot section? I noticed this approach in the biography article on Huey Long. Labbrla (talk) 15:14, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You should just write concisely. In The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly, it doesn't matter what Tuco's exact crimes are. The point is that he's untrustworthy. One could just call him a thief and be done with it without faithfully transcribing all the crimes he's been accused of. Likewise, it doesn't matter what kind of gun he uses to shoot someone. The point is that he shot someone, and any further detail than that is extraneous. You shouldn't need explanatory footnotes. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 00:07, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Suitability of AwardsWatch and Next Best Picture

I've been doing some work at List of accolades received by CODA (2021 film), and I noticed that a lot of awards are sourced to AwardsWatch (website) and/or Next Best Picture (website). From my browsing over the last few months, I've noticed these sites are used a lot to cite other films' awards, particularly when it comes to recent films. Are these websites sufficient to establish an award's notability? I have no reason to doubt their reliability, which is why I'm not bringing this up at WP:RSN, but it seems they cover pretty much every award they can find, which, to me, means it's impossible to tell which awards should be taken seriously for our purposes. RunningTiger123 (talk) 00:09, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Both of those look fine to me considering the contributors for both seem to include plenty of approved critics and contributors to other reliable sites, etc., but for most major awards there is usually a major website like one of the trades (Deadline, THR, Variety, etc.) covering it that could also be used. - adamstom97 (talk) 00:31, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Film#Accolades, Awards included in lists should have a Wikipedia article to demonstrate notability. Nardog (talk) 00:34, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Correct, but consider something like the article for DiscussingFilm Critics Awards, which was created in April. Its sole sources are from these two websites (plus a primary source). Because the article exists, it now meets the aforementioned MOS guideline, but it's not clear if the awards are notable. In other words, I could see someone creating an article based on these websites to justify the inclusion of an award that otherwise would be excluded. (Not saying that's what happened here, just that it could happen, and I think that would be problematic.) That's why I think it's worth determining if these websites are indicative of notability. RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:14, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Then I don't think the question is whether it's appropriate to use these websites in particular as much as whether a list of winners/nominees constitutes significant coverage of the awards or the award-giving body. And I'd argue it does not. Nardog (talk) 04:50, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to have summarized the issue better than I did – it is indeed a matter of significant coverage. RunningTiger123 (talk) 16:06, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Kashmir Files lede

There is a RFC concerning the lede for a recently released film on Kashmir. Comments are welcome. TrangaBellam (talk) 07:46, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Project newsletter

Is there still a film project newsletter? Or was that stopped ages ago? Govvy (talk) 08:21, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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