Talk:Bunjevci

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Bunjevci are catholic Serbians

Please take a look at Austro-HUngarian census and map made in 1910. by Count Teleki https:/upwiki/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Ethnographic_map_of_hungary_1910_by_teleki_carte_rouge.jpg They are strictly identified as Serb Catholics

Pixius (talk) 22:45, 23 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of claims made on this page with no sources. Truthdelivery (talk) 21:57, 29 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Language

Bunjevci are ethnic Croats that fled from Herzegovina. As such their native language is Croatian. Living in another country or switching nationality due to political reasons doesn't affect native language as a whole. (It does only on personal level and doesn't reflect on the whole group.) SerVasi (talk) 20:03, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Croatian is only one standardized form of Serbo-Croatian. It is unquestionable that Bunjevac dialect is a subset of Serbo-Croatian linguistic spectrum. It is questionable whether Bunjevac is a subset of Croatian, which is a sociolingiuistic construct. No such user (talk) 11:31, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@No such user: Its not even remotely questionable.Its a fact accepted by the whole world.(except 1 country) SerVasi (talk) 15:17, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Do not spin please. Bunjevci mostly live in Serbia - therefore the opinion of scholars and government of that country is of high relevance. The majority of Bunjevci do not speak Croatian as far as we know. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 15:57, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to have an opinion that "Croatian" is somehow discernible from "Serbo-Croatian". Let's check out some neutral sources, e.g.

Geert-Hinrich Ahrens (6 March 2007). Diplomacy on the Edge: Containment of Ethnic Conflict and the Minorities Working Group of the Conferences on Yugoslavia. Woodrow Wilson Center Press. pp. 247–. ISBN 978-0-8018-8557-0.

The 1991 census and its predecessor contained three categories of Roman Catholic, Serbo-Croatian speaking Slavs: Croats, Bunjevci and Šokci. The differences between them were difficult to understand, because besides the identity of their religion, their Serbo-Croatian also showed characteristics of the Croatian variant. Croats, therefore, claimed "Croatian-ness" (Hrvatstvo) of the Bunjevci and Šokci, whereas Serbs, but also some Bunjevci, pretended that they were from old Balkan stock[...] The problem was not theoretical but political, because the split lowered the percentage of the Vojvodina Croats, who accused Belgrade of a divide et impera policy

So, the things are not so simple as you'd like to present, and, since, the fact accepted by the whole world (except 1 country) is that Croatian and Serbian make up one genetic language, that we refer to "Serbo-Croatian" we should go with the broadest, neutral, definition. No such user (talk) 17:05, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You cant say dont try to spin this and do the same. Almost all of bunjevic live in serbia because in other countries like romania,hungary,switzerland etc. They are reffered to as croats. Again this is not the case only in *one* country. SerVasi (talk) 18:27, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure that I understand. :) If it is some sort of hate speech, it's not okay. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 00:51, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I will assume that was a joke sadko. Anyways, @No such user: why arent you keeping the same energy on these articles then: Bosniaks,Croats,Serbs,Montenegrins.I dont see serbo-croatian listed there SerVasi (talk) 18:08, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@No such user: SerVasi (talk) 22:41, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@No such user: ye folding your argument or? SerVasi (talk) 02:32, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

SerVasi: Nope. I would gladly keep the same energy on those articles as well, but I have limited time and resources. Anyway, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Technically, Croats do speak "Croatian" and Serbs "Serbian" etc, as those are the names they use for the language they speak so it's not strictly "wrong", although it should be mentioned that those are mere variations of "Serbo-Croatian". However, I'm not aware that a majority of Bunjevci call their language "Croatian" so as to unambiguously use such formulation in this article. No such user (talk) 08:37, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@No such user:An overwhelming majority of bunjevci identify as croats yet they dont consider their language croatian. Thats certaintly an interesting take on the situation. SerVasi (talk) 20:54, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

SerVasi "Overwhelming"?! "2011 Census of Population, Households and Dwellings in The Republic of Serbia: Ethnicity - Data by municipalities and cities" (PDF). Statistical Office of Republic Of Serbia, Belgrade. 2012. ISBN 978-86-6161-023-3.

Subotica (grad): Bunjevci 13,553; Hrvati 14,151
Sombor: Bunjevci 2,058; Hrvati 7,070

There are more Croats elsewhere in Vojvodina, but they are not of Bunjevci stock. No such user (talk) 10:34, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@No such user: SerVasi (talk) 02:47, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@No such user: Yes, overwhelming. For some reason you are operating on a false pretense that bunjevci only live in vojvodina. They are present in croatia,hungary,romania,bosnia and even a decent number in switzerland. In all of those countries they almost exclusively identify as croats. This is not the case only in serbia because of political reasons. SerVasi (talk) 19:00, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I see no sources for the claim and it is not general knowledge and not all of them in Serbia self-identify as Croats, with or without alleged political influence. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 20:02, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This article is chiefly about Bunjevci in Bačka. By now, those other Bunjevci have lost virtually all of their identity, lore and dialect so much it's debatable whether the label still applies to them.
But frankly, I'm rather tired of this chat by now. Is the statement that Bunjevci speak a dialect of Serbo-Croatian somehow wrong? Is it not neutral? What's the particular reason you insist on "Croatian" formulation? No such user (talk) 13:55, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@No such user: The title is only bunjevci and thats what the artice should be about. If you find it necessary feel free to make a seperate article called bunjevci in backa. Saying they speak a dialect of croatian isnt wrong either and its not as vague as saying serbo-croatian. Its more concise and informative. Thats what wikipedia is all about. Cheers. SerVasi (talk) 02:09, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

@Soundwaweserb: @Ничим неизазван: @SerVasi: I suggest you all use the talk page instead of edit warring, please. If anyone can explain how describing the Bunjevci as Croats and adding the flag of the Croatian National Council isn't WP:UNDUE and WP:POV, I suggest they do it here. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 15:41, 23 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Esteemed editor SerVasi was pushing his nationalistic POV which was in my opinion very disruptive and badl for the general state and neutrality of Wikipedia. Not to mention his street slurs and labels. That's all folks. My bruh @Amanuensis Balkanicus:, please, help me, help us. Greetings to the diligent editors. God bless. † Ничим неизазван (talk) 19:36, 24 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@SerVasi: Further changes to the article should be discussed here first according to WP:BRD. Your edits have been reverted multiple times, and you haven't yet discussed the edits on the talk pages. --Vacant0 (talk) 12:02, 26 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely an interesting choice of words painting me as the perpetrator in all of this. Assembling biased editors and fake IPs doesn't make one side of the argument right against widely accepted facts. Previous discussions with these kinds of consortiums have proved to be rather futile in the past so why bother. I am also wary of engaging in discussions with fellow editor Amanuensis Balkanicus who is acting in bad faith because for some reason believes i am a sock of another editor (whose name i don't recall atm) even after SPI checks. SerVasi (talk) 13:01, 26 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]