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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Ben1283 (talk | contribs) at 20:26, 5 June 2008 (→Pioneer Conference). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Pioneer Conference

Pioneer Conference (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Fails WP:NOTE High School Conferences not notable as shown here. Also pages are duplicate information that definitely is not relevant enough to have info listed multiple times on multiple pages. Full list of conferences with schools already exists. Why does each conference with schools need to be duplicated on several individual pages, Ohio High School Athletic Conferences.

For sake of space see... Category:Ohio_high_school_sports_conferences. These other articles have been tagged as they are other high school conferences in Ohio. Note that several of these have been tagged with notability issues. --GoHuskies9904 (talk) 19:46, 2 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - The reason for the deletion on the page I gave was high school conferences don't exist. And other crap exists is when a person says why are you deleting my page when other crappy stuff exists elsewhere. Doesn't really work against deletion here.--GoHuskies9904 (talk) 02:30, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm confused by what you are saying. The list is fine because its centralized and all you really need for high school athletic conferences. Having multiple pages with the same thing added with seasonal sports just wastes space. As Airtuna states below, everyone knows basketball is a winter sport, baseball is a spring sport. That doesn't add much to an article. If every page could contain a full history and what not then they might be acceptable. But right now each page is basically not much more than a list of schools with links to their home pages and the sports they play which are universal. What you really have is a central list and then 25+ individual conference lists. They aren't notable enough to be listed in several different places. --GoHuskies9904 (talk) 19:12, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Most pages have more than the list of schools. The ones that don't should have info added as i mentioned in my vote below. If theres nothing to add, then they should be listed for deletion as separate articles. But back to the other stuff exists discussion, the fact that some articles were merged to a list has nothing to do with this discussion or these athletic conferences <Baseballfan789 (talk) 19:41, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep All per Jon & Frank--Cube lurker (talk) 14:26, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete - The purpose of having high school athletic conferences flood over 30+ pages when there's a central list is what exactly? Its common knowledge for the most part what sports are fall, winter and spring. That's the only thing I see besides a list of schools on each conference page. There are about 2 or 3 pages that are further expanded, but this is the kind of thing where you keep all or delete all since they are part of a unit. --Airtuna08 (talk) 14:49, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Speedy Delete - Precedent was provided with the Cincinnati article Huskies gave. Reason for deletion was high school athletics conferences are not notable. Also, TunaFish brings up a good point, why are all these separate articles necessary when a central list already exists? A listing of seasonal sports is pretty much uniform everywhere, so the fact the individual pages contain those do not make them worthy of standing alone! --FancyMustard (talk) 18:15, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment It's no different than having a list of schools and then having an article about each school. The list of athletic conferences in Ohio is a centralized list (i.e. a starting point), just like lists showing schools by county or schools by state, etc. Athletic conferences have histories, different setups, etc. I've mentioned two that have been tagged for deletion, both of which already contain explanations as to why and how they formed, what schools are a part of them and why, as well as notable traits and other info not contained in a list (enrollments, location, colors, etc...just like in a collegiate conference article). Neither of those fit the reasoning of just being duplicate lists.--JonRidinger (talk) 19:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay then. Take Western Buckeye League for an example. It doesn't fit the stereotype of just a list of schools with the sports. It conatins athletic history as far back as the 1940's. Not to mention, the main category these articles are in has around 255 High School Conferences; picking Ohio as a subcat is easy to deal with. But all of those articles really don't assert any notability? I find that hard to believe. And since we're getting rid of high school conferences; might as well Tfd the templates and tag all other conferences for this Afd as well. Have to keep one step ahead. §hep • ¡Talk to me! 22:29, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • undent:Okay, that wasn't an attack. Just a question. And no I will not go through every Afd looking for a High Scholl Conference one, and then going through every !vote of support to see if one was an admin. §hep • ¡Talk to me! 22:40, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Careful with blanket statements like "no one." Most high school athletics conferences, at least the ones I have looked for in Ohio, do not have official websites; most of the info on each conference comes from newspaper articles, history books, and school or other websites, so Wikipedia is one of the few places that puts it all together. Just because you may not use Wikipedia to look up info on a high school conference doesn't mean no one else does. Further, not all states have high school athletics conferences like Ohio does, so they are somewhat unique. Utah, for example, simply assigns high schools to regions, which act as a conference but a school does not have a direct say as to what region they are in and the regions themselves do not have rules or guildelines unique to themselves like an Ohio high school conference can. --JonRidinger (talk) 00:01, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reply Not having a website deosn't have anything to do with notability. Take Brookside, Ohio; they don't have their own website. Western Buckeye League & Ohio Valley Athletic Conference; the first two I looked at both had websites as well. §hep • ¡Talk to me! 16:47, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Exactly, I for one usually turn to Wikipedia to look up a topic that may not be written about somewhere else. I figure since anyone can edit, someone probably wrote about whatever it is I want to look up. Also, that's interesting about Utah high schools! Frank12 (talk) 01:56, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment If there aren't any websites or what not on the subject, why should it be notable for Wikipedia. You would think those sites that specialize in high school sports would have it. If they don't, why should a broad encyclopedia like Wikipedia have them? --GoHuskies9904 (talk) 01:59, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I've always had the notion that because of Wikipedia's unique setup, it included a wider range of topics than other encyclopedias. If it didn't, I wouldn't find it any more significant than the rest. Frank12 (talk) 21:01, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There may not be an official "Pioneer Conference Website" but a website does not necessarily equal notability. I would venture to say that most high school conferences don't have a website because they simply don't regard the costs of upkeeping a good website as a good use of money or they simply don't have the money period. High school conferences in Ohio are similar to collegiate conferences in how they are formed, their management, and structured, but high school conferences don't have big sponsorship deals to bring in money like their collegiate counterparts. The conferences, however, are frequently mentioned as governing bodies in newspaper articles and by the schools who are members; they are legal entities, not just loose associations like a region. And, it's not that there aren't any websites on the subject, but there are no comprehensive ones. That is typical of a lot of topics on Wikipedia, even higher notability...that being sources and info in a variety of scattered places both on and off line. --JonRidinger (talk) 02:27, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep All for now. Some articles are written very well and are informative while others are just a list of schools and maybe a list of the sports sanctioned by the league. This nom borders on or maybe crosses the line on WP:AON. Tag the articles with notability concerns and relist those articles individually if the concerns are not resolved in an appropriate amount of time. Ben1283 (talk) 00:12, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - too much variation in quality among these articles; need to nominate problematic pieces individually. Christopher Parham (talk) 03:52, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom. Not notable. CRGreathouse (t | c) 04:24, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect on a case-by-case basis, as per Christopher Parham above. Surely the nom is correct that there is no need for a stub for every conference when we have a centralized list (they can be changed to redirects to the main list), but for at least a couple of these it appears there is notable information. (Disclosure: I am moderating a Wikiquette alert involving two involved users) --Jaysweet (talk) 13:23, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Also, be careful to make sure any useful information is merged when doing the redirects. For instance, some of the individual conference stubs have the conference logo, and it would be nice to merge that in to the main list when available. --Jaysweet (talk) 13:25, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    We could put some of the material into the central list. I'm still not sure how notable any of this really is, but merging stuff over to the list could be a good compromise, because a lot of people feel the material should exist, but its obviously excessive to have several stubs on these articles as well. --GoHuskies9904 (talk) 16:15, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment -- I agree with Ben1283, this is an all or nothing decision. We cannot be selective in which to keep and which to delete. Either keep all because they are equally part of the Ohio HS system or delete all. Doesn't make sense to have articles on just a few of the Ohio HS conferences just because they look nice. They all have the exact same notability or lack of notability.--UWMSports (talk) Today, 12:34 pm (UTC-4)
  • That is the complete opposite of what I said. This nom violates WP:AON because the conferences should be listed individually due to great ranges of notability and information in each of the articles Ben1283 (talk) 23:51, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I disagree entirely. That's like saying that if we include an article on The Beatles, we have to include an article on my old band because they are both defunct four-piece rock bands. If one or more of the conferences has something notable about it, e.g. a team that consistently wins state championships, a lot of notable alumni, a controversy or scandal, etc., then it might make sense to keep it. --Jaysweet (talk) 17:04, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh, I agree with you if there are special circumstances. Say a conference had a big scandal or something, or a community happens to groom many notable athletics like Donora, Pennsylvania. However, comparing the Beatles and my old band doesn't paint what's going on here. These conferences are part of the Ohio High School Athletics system. The Beatles and my old band aren't connected that way. So I fail to see your analogy there. But I do agree with your point about special circumstances. --UWMSports (talk) 17:53, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - the nominator linked to just a deletion log, which doesn't tell me anything on why high school athletic conferences shouldn't be notable, just that one person deleted an article on them. I'm a direct contradiction to the idea that no one has looked up high school athletics conferences on Wikipedia as I have, and I've made edits to them. I think that if high schools are notable, as consensus consistently proves, the organizations that bind them together therefore have to be notable as well. matt91486 (talk) 16:53, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I gave you precedent where High School Athletic conferences were deemed non-notable. Now find something that says otherwise. --GoHuskies9904 (talk) 17:30, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Frankly, one admin's opinion; who isn't even active anymore. Isn't much of s precedent in the first place. §hep • ¡Talk to me! 17:32, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Doesn't matter if he's not active. That was the precedent. Doesn't the Supreme Court make most of their decisions based on precedent? That is even if the Supreme Court justice that started the precedent is long dead. --GoHuskies9904 (talk) 17:35, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Wikipedia policy frowns upon precedents. The merits of the specific conferences that were deleted are not up for discussion, only the conferences in this nomination (per WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS) <Baseballfan789 (talk) 23:47, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    You're right; it doesn't matter if they're not active. Either way; with no guidelines or discussions prior or after that isolated incident I don't see why one deletion should hold any ground. I'm sure the Supreme Court talks about things before doing them; I saw no discussion for that article. §hep • ¡Talk to me! 17:36, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    So if you find one that works in your favor I would expect you to have the same skeptical view and say it was just another isolated incident that happened to find HS conferences notable. Come on StepShep, you'd be flaunting it like crazy. I have some precedent, you guys do not. I'm just asking you to be fair and acknowledge it as I would acknowledge any findings in your favor. --GoHuskies9904 (talk) 17:39, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I stopped looking, so don't worry about that. I'm just stating that one incident cannot set a precedent for the deletion of around 255 articles. §hep • ¡Talk to me! 17:41, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    FWIW, Stepshep is basically correct. While precedent is informative, it is not binding on Wikipedia. The fact that the other article was considered non-notable is worth bringing up, but it's just one point among many. --Jaysweet (talk) 18:01, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm not saying it should make or break this, but it is something that cannot be totally dismissed as Step, etc are trying to do. Like I said if something was found that pointed the other direction they'd be using it like crazy. The Supreme Court does talk about things before voting obviously. But if there is precedent it is very rare that they will change things. --GoHuskies9904 (talk) 18:04, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    (reset indent)
    Fair 'nuff, although I have to point out that SCOTUS's procedures are completely irrelevant to Wikipedia's procedures :) SCOTUS precedent is considered binding, lower courts are expected to abide by it, and later SCOTUS members are very reluctant to overturn past precedent and err on the side of sticking to it. Wikipedia precedent is not considered binding, nobody is expected to abide by it unless it becomes an official policy, and it is standard operating procedure for new consensus to overturn previous precedence. So I don't think your SCOTUS analogy makes any sense here :) --Jaysweet (talk) 18:07, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    One admin's decision, if not based on any discussion, is hardly a good enough precedent. If you can find an actual debated policy that says it's not notable, that's a different matter entirely, but I don't accept a unilateral deletion log as a precedent. matt91486 (talk) 18:32, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Of course you don't, so I would expect you not to accept anything that you find that goes the other way. Be objective and acknowledge its existence. Then find a reason as to why it shouldn't stick. Just saying it isn't acceptable isn't a reason to dismiss it. --GoHuskies9904 (talk) 18:37, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I am finding a reason why, as I said in my argument earlier. I'm saying decisions are supposed to be made by a consensus, and there wasn't one made there. That's why I find it invalid. This discussion is working towards a consensus which can actually serve as a precedent. See: Wikipedia:Consensus. matt91486 (talk) 18:53, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks, I do know what a consensus is, hence why I brought this to a discussion and not a straight out deletion request. Goodluck in your search! --GoHuskies9904 (talk) 19:43, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. The "precedent" cited refers to an ambiguous action of one editor; deleting on that basis would be ludicrous. The assertion of redundancy also seems unreasonable to me -- the league is merely named in a list, so the only redundant bit of info is that the league exists. Currently, the article says a lot more than "the Pioneer Conference exists" -- and there's still room for expansion. — xDanielx T/C\R 05:11, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - The list is pretty much the same as whats in the articles with the exception of two or three of the conferences. And I'm not saying delete based on that precedent, but it should be a pretty hard nugget to get by. I'm still waiting for a reason as to why high school conferences ARE notable. --GoHuskies9904 (talk) 14:28, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Currently 21 of the 40 articles nominated, or 53%, have more info than a list of members. That is much more than the "two or three" that you bring up. Ben1283 (talk) 20:26, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge all into a greatly expanded Ohio High School Athletic Conferences article. Individually they are no more notable than state organizations within a larger organization. Even if on paper they are separate they are de facto equivalent to regions of a statewide athletic conference. To facilitate the merge, keep the history, redirect all, and full-protect the redirects for 30 days to prevent edit-warring or innocent reverts by people unaware of the AfD. Leave the talk pages alone. If any of these are notable in their own right, say, by being the subject of a book, then an article about that particular conference can be re-created. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 17:24, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Procedurally Relist by state: Conferences that include more than one state should be relisted individually. My vote will be to merge all in any given state together and keep those crossing state lines as they don't have an obvious merge target. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 17:41, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment This action implies that all the articles here are simply lists of conference members and sports they sponsor, when it has already been pointed out that some of the articles have documented histories and unique conference rules in their individual articles and can already stand on their own. No need to do a mass merge for articles that don't need it just to satisfy some people who feel they aren't notable enough to be on Wikipedia, plus the main list already exists. They are either notable enough to warrant an individual article or they aren't. Why make extra work when we don't need to?
As for high school conferences being notable, why are college conferences notable? Because they're on TV? Because they have a website? In essence, high school conferences, at least in Ohio, function very similarly to collegiate conferences. While they are certainly not as notable as a collegiate conference, that doesn't mean they are not notable at all, especially in light of the articles on high schools, which make mention of the school's conference affiliation. If the high school is notable enough to have its own article, why isn't the conference it is a part of notable enough? I have already mentioned how conferences in Ohio are different than in some other states (which don't use conferences) and how a given conference can have it's own specific rules, history, and structure; things that are notable even if it is lower. A simple list cuts out a lot of information. --JonRidinger (talk) 18:23, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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